Stormcrow

So we agree: figures of speech should be taken as figures of speech. But when did words like "soon" and "near" become figures of speech?

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. At this point, I'm simply trying to get people to see the problems in trying to make 2,000 year-old texts about us, living today, when proper Biblical hermeneutics allows for no such thing. Again, if I write an inspired letter to my wife does that entitle you to read it as though it's addressed to you simply because we're all part of Christ's church? If not, why do you read the New Testament epistles that way?

So then, should each person also expect to see their world "melted with a fervent heat?" Peter was speaking of a specific end that cannot be allegorized into something he never intended.

near ni(ə)r/ adverb adverb: near 1. at or to a short distance away; nearby. "a bomb exploding somewhere near" 2. a short time away in the future. "the time for his retirement was drawing near" 3. almost. "a near perfect fit" synonyms: almost, just about, nearly, practically, virtually; literarywell-nigh "near perfect conditions" 4. archaicdialect almost. "I near fell out of the chair" preposition preposition: near; preposition: near to 1. at or to a short distance away from (a place). "the parking lot near the sawmill" synonyms: close to, close by, a short distance from, in the vicinity of, in the neighborhood of, within reach of, a stone's throw away from; informalwithin spitting distance of "a hotel near the seafront" 2. a short period of time from. "near the end of the war" 3. close to (a state); verging on. "she gave a tiny smile, brave but near tears" (used before an amount) a small amount below (something); approaching. "temperatures near 2 million degrees K" 4. similar to. "a shape near to the original" adjective adjective: near; comparative adjective: nearer; superlative adjective: nearest 1. located a short distance away. "a big house in the near distance" synonyms: close, nearby, close/near at hand, at hand, a stone's throw away, within reach, accessible, handy, convenient; informalwithin spitting distance "the nearest house" antonyms: far 2. only a short time ahead. "the conflict is unlikely to be resolved in the near future" synonyms: imminent, in the offing, close/near at hand, at hand, (just) around the corner, impending, looming "the final judgment is near" Greek NASB Number: 1448 Greek Word: ἐγγίζω Transliterated Word: eggizô Root: from 1451; Definition: to make near, refl. to come near:-- List of English Words and Number of Times Used approached (10), approaching (7), came (1), came close (1), came near (1), come near (2), comes near (2), coming near (1), draw near (3), drawing near (2), hand (7), near (5). New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible. When Peter writes in 1Peter 4:7 "the end of all things is near", given the definitions from both the English and the Greek of the word, how do you possibly justify it applying to people living 2,000 years later??? So you agree that the time statements are literal? If so, how can they possibly pertain to us??? The proper manner by which to interpret scripture (or any text) that is both a mixture of the literal and symbolic, is to read the literal at face value and use it as the key for understanding the symbolic. What the church has done is flip this completely on its head, so that the symbolic ("stars falling to earth") becomes literal and the clearly literal time statements ("the end of alll things is near") are symbolic! In other words, in order to understand the symbolic, people must view it in terms of the literal! This is the only proper way to approach Biblical hermeneutics! And again, if the words the apostles wrote to their audiences were not relevant to them, why did they bother writing to them as though they were???

The whole world as we know it, not the whole world as they knew it 2,000 years ago. How the Christian doctrine soon spread throughout the whole world. Thus, then, under a celestial influence and co-operation, the doctrine of the Saviour, like the rays of the sun, quickly irradiated the whole world. Presently, in accordance with divine prophecy, the sound of his inspired evangelists and apostles had gone throughout all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world. Throughout every city and village, like a replenished barn floor, churches were rapidly found abounding, and filled with members from every people. The Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilus. And now, here is a truly historical account that confirms the words of Paul. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:14 (NIV2011) And what did Paul write again??? First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. Romans 1:8 (NIV2011) But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” Romans 10:18 (NIV2011) but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; Romans 16:26 (NASB) because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth; Colossians 1:5-6 (NASB) if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. Colossians 1:23 (NASB) Doctrine must conform to Christ's word, not the other way around. Jesus said it. I believe it. That settles it.

Well, first of all, I do not call God's Word a lie. It is the inspired, inerrant, revealed truth. So let's put that to rest right off the bat. Second, I do not refuse to believe scripture as I use it extensively in every post I make about it! Third, I have never stated a desire to "turn folk away from holy writ." I have never stated such a desire because my desire is to have people return to scripture and read it as the Bereans did, testing what the apostles wrote without any prconceived notions or doctrinal blinders on! My purpose here is very simple: to help people understand the Bible, as it is God's revelation about Himself and salvation. But in order to understand it, we have to read it as it was written, and that starts with a simple premise: If I write a letter to my wife, does that mean those in the church are entitled to read it as though it is also addressed to them? If the answer is "no", then why do you read the NT epistles this way???

So when Peter writes, "The end of all things is near." 1 Peter 4:7 (NIV2011) he was writing to us? When John writes, "Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near." Revelation 1:3 (NIV2011) he was writing to us? When James writes, "You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near." James 5:8 (NIV2011) he was writing to us? When Jesus said, "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." Matthew 24:34 (NIV2011) he was speaking to us? Finally, when Jesus said, "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16:28 (NIV2011) was He talking to us or the very people who were standing right in front of Him; His disciples? Virtually every single letter and gospel in the NT contains promises of Christ's return made to the people living then, which is made perfectly clear by the language they used to communicate it. Words like "soon", "near", "at hand", "at the door" all communicate imminence and urgency. Now, either Christ did what He promised or He did not. But if He did not, why follow Him? I'll leave you with what an atheist wrote about the problem for Christianity regarding Christ's promise of His return for the first century church: What Russell is saying here that should be a cause of concern for all in the church, is that if Christ did not return to His first century followers, as He clearly promised, then Christ did not keep His promise, and a man who promised so much and failed to deliver is not worth believing in. Surely God, who created the universe and language would've chosen words other than "soon" and "near" to communicate Christ's retun if His return had been promised to us, yes? When Christ said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened", I must choose whether I will take Him at His very clearly worded promise to that generation of His disciples, or try to reinterpret His words to mean something set far off into distant generations applying to us. But if I have to change His words to fit my belief, then they're not really His words anymore, are they??? Think about it.

Some do. Some don't. That is why it's so very criically important to understand to whom he was writing and why. Here's a case in point. When Jesus is recorded as saying the following, to whom were His words directed and meant? “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Matthew 23:33-35 (NIV2011) The answer to this is in a preceeding passage: “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. Matthew 23:29 (NIV2011) He concludes His invective against them with the following words: Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation. Matthew 23:36 (NIV2011) Now, is there any question as to whom Jesus was addressing in this passage from Matthew 23? Were His words directed to us? How someone answers this question will reveal a lot about their understanding of Biblical interpretation (also called "Biblical hermeneutics.") Failure to understand this concept called "audience relevance" is at the heart of most of the error in churches today, especially in those churches deemed to be "cults." It's important to take God's Word as written and not add our own understanding to it. If Jesus said, "this generation", did He really mean "that generation" 2,000 years hence, as so many today read His words?

Yes. But they were not written to us. Are you a Phillipian? Colossian? Roman? Were you a member of one of the seven churches to whom John wrote??? If not, these letters were not written to you. There are universal truths we can learn from them, but the letters themselves were not written to us. And again, as long as people persist in believing they are, error in interpretation will be unavoidable.

What did Jesus say? And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:14 (NIV2011) And what did Paul write again??? First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. Romans 1:8 (NIV2011) But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” Romans 10:18 (NIV2011) but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; Romans 16:26 (NASB) because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth; Colossians 1:5-6 (NASB) if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. Colossians 1:23 (NASB) Jesus said it. I believe it. That settles it. It is not up to me to interpret His words any other way than they are clearly recorded. If it means I have to adjust my understanding to conform to His Word, so be it.

Yes, this is absolutely true, however, this is a far, far different statement than to suggest Paul's letters were written to us. All you have to do is look at the titles of the letters he wrote to see that it's clear that Paul did not write a single letter to us. For anyone to suggest that he did is the basis for much error in the church today.

I don't really see how this refutes what I wrote about not taking "stars falling to earth" literally.

So if the letters Paul wrote to the Thessalonians are also written to us living 2,000 years later, is this also written to us? Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus, and Timothy our brother, To Philemon our beloved brother and fellow worker, and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow soldier, and to the church in your house: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Philemon 1:1-3 (NASB) If we are all part of the church, and I write a letter to my wife, does that mean you get to read it? Does it mean anything and everything in it also applies to you??? If I write a letter to a church in another state, and we are all part of the church, does that mean everything I've written in it is subject to your scrutiny? Paul wrote letters to specific people at specific times for specific reasons and none of those letters were addressed to us. Now, we can certainly gain important understanding about our own spiritual walk from Paul's inspired words, but we cannot properly interpret his words if we assume that he was writing to us. That is not the way to interpret any ancient text!

Am I correct in assuming you take this literally? If so, just how many these massive fusion reactors in space called "stars" can fit on this planet? And if you answered "none" (which, by the way, is the correct answer), then it might be time to re-evaluate the manner in which passages like these are viewed. That is to say, they cannot be taken literally.

I can see something in this. This suggests that a person's works will decide how severe their punishment is. "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:31-46 (NASB) The judgment in Revelation 20 is the same judgment Jesus spoke of in Matthew 25. The "deeds" for which they would be judged has to do with the manner in which people treated His messengers, the least of whom - according to the apostle himself - was Paul. Now, here's a little "connect the dots" game. See if you can find the common thread in these two passages (one from the NT, one from the OT): "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! Matthew 23:29-38 (NASB) Now, see if you can find the common thread with this passage in the next, especially as it relates to judgment: The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place; but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy. Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand. All the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his officers, he brought them all to Babylon. Then they burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles. 2 Chronicles 36:15-19 (NASB) Now, if you can come to understand how these two passages relate to one another, you can begin to understand the Olivet Discourse, and, in understanding that, you can begin to understand Revelation.