S.T. Ranger

Just as a way to quickly address this in one lump sum, it seems that in your posting you are claiming that resurrections such as Lazarus and the saints which arose at the Lord's Crucifixion had to be raised in spiritual bodies, based on this... Hebrews 9:27 King James Version (KJV) 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: ...am I clear about that? So I thought I would back us up a little to se if you also believe the resurrection seen here... 1 Kings 17:17-22King James Version (KJV) 17 And it came to pass after these things, that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, fell sick; and his sickness was so sore, that there was no breath left in him. 18 And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son? 19 And he said unto her, Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him up into a loft, where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed. 20 And he cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son? 21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. 22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived. The question I would pose to you is this: do you see this child as being glorified when he is resurrected here, according to the resurrection of the body which Paul describes in the New Testament? God bless.

Might be a good idea to talk with your wife about this plan. And if you're not married...time to get busy finding one, lol.

And that's all the time I have for now, Salty, I will get to your other posts, hopefully, before Christmas. God bless.

So show this from Scripture. I can already tell you will not be able to do that. So where is the Scripture. So far all I have is the presentation of Second Coming passages with your imposition of resurrection attached. Wishful thinking does not a doctrine support. Where? 1 Thessalonians 5, perhaps, but not sure we have gotten into discussion of 2 Thessalonians yet. Either way, show how 2 Thessalonians teaches the Rapture at Christ's Return. Which completely misses the fact that there is a resurrection of Tribulation Martyrs at the end of the Tribulation, and then a resurrection at the end of the Millennial Kingdom: you are failing to see the significance of the fact that two resurrections, the latter without question tied to the Lord's teaching in John 5. This would have the resurrection of the dead described here... Revelation 20:11-15 King James Version (KJV) 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. ...taking place one thousand years before Scripture states it will happen. Salty: it's men's traditions that require some to still be in flesh bodies on earth after Jesus' coming on the day of the Lord. Have you not really understood the 2 Pet.3:10 burning of the elements on that day of the Lord, and how it means the things of this present world being burned off the earth? That is the comparison Peter gave there with the previous destructions God did upon the earth, except this last time by His consuming fire. How could you miss that, especially since the Old Testament prophets were also given to write about it? That event is even what Paul's "sudden destruction" of 1 Thess.5 is about upon the wicked on that day. It's going to end... this present flesh age on earth. It's not man's tradition that requires, not some, but all to be in flesh bodies when the Lord Returns. You are making mincemeat of some very simple and basic teachings. Peter's teaching can be correlated to this: Revelation 20:11 King James Version (KJV) 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 21 King James Version (KJV) 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And this takes place after the Millennial Kingdom. Your conclusion is in error because the premise is in error: There is no resurrection at Christ's Return other than the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs. they will... be marrying?? No, they won't either. Please. Don't be absurd. I made the exact opposite point, and I am not sure why you could not understand it. Agreed, but there is at least a period of seven years prior at which point they and we were glorified. You won't support a resurrection, particularly the Rapture...at Christ's Return. Sounds more like Raiders of the Lost Ark than Scripture. They too had some theological error that needed to be dealt with. Sorry, no. The Rapture is a bodily resurrection in which the Church, all of her, is changed from this corruptible flesh to incorruptible, even as our Lord was glorified. Never said it did. But what you are failing to distinguish is between the resurrection unto life and the resurrection unto damnation. You are making all resurrection one general resurrection and Paul's teaching does not allow for that. Clearly the Church is raised in glorified bodies well before the Great White Throne Judgment where the damned will be raised again and cast into the Lake of Fire. Secondly, you keep making the Return of Christ the time of resurrection yet you have no Scriptural basis for that. I have mentioned more than once that the only resurrection that takes place at the time of His Return is the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs. That is the only one. I'm getting there, believe me, I'm getting there, lol. God bless.

You are blending two teachings erroneously. There is no resurrection when Christ returns apart from the resurrection of Tribulation Martyrs. The Resurrection of the Church takes place at the same time, that includes both dead and alive saints, who both return with Christ when He returns. And there is no mention of this in any of the Gospels where His Return is described. Which cannot be seen in Scripture dealing with His return. Agreed. Now if you can just recognize that this does not take place at the Sheep and Goat Judgment you will be on your way to a clearer understanding of eschatological events. In that judgment all are alive. The wicked are destroyed, the believing go into the Kingdom. So show this in Paul's teaching concerning the Rapture. That's all you have to do. Salty: the idea of our spirit going back to The Father at flesh death was first taught in the Old Testament Books. And the idea of death swallowed up in victory was first taught in Isaiah 25, which is one of the Old Testament prophecies that Apostle Paul was pulling from when he gave 1 Cor.15. Afterall, Apostle Paul was a learned scholar of the Old Testament Scriptures, having been taught by one of the best Hebrew scholars of his day, Gamaliel. Great, seems you are aware of Scripture that not even Israel, who primarily believed men went to Sheol...haven't been able to find. And what you are doing here is denying Paul's own statement...that what he was teaching was a mystery. No amount of commentary is going to change what is actually written in Scripture. On the contrary, God's Redemptive Plan has remained consistent, but what you are not realizing is that revelation has been progressive. Make your doctrine fit... 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 King James Version (KJV) 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. Ephesians 3:8-9 King James Version (KJV) 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 1:9-12 King James Version (KJV) 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. ...Scripture. The Gospel of Christ was not revealed to men prior to Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit, coming in the Ministry of the Comforter, revealed it to men. Christ even declared it to His disciples. Let's see the reaction: Matthew 16:21-23 King James Version (KJV) 21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Not only did Peter not embrace the Gospel of Jesus Christ...he was in direct opposition to it. He did not want Christ to die, but that is the express purpose of the Incarnation, and the heart of Redemption which has been progressively revealed through the Ages. Peter is still in opposition to the Gospel when he takes up a sword in Gethsemane, and when...he denies he even knows the Lord to save his own skin. That doesn't mean men knew what it meant, Salty. You're not going to win that debate, it is clear that the Gospel was a hidden mystery revealed at Pentecost. And the key here is "Mystery," which Biblically means unrevealed. The Rapture is first revealed by Paul, and you are confusing this with the foundational teachings of the Old Testament, which the writer expressly warns against doing. Salty: no, that's actually from men's traditions what you're saying there. It is simply Biblical Doctrine direct from First Century teachings of Christ, Paul, and John. If you disagree please present the Scripture that has a resurrection associated with Christ's return, other than the First Resurrection. Continued...

So all you have to do is show this resurrection you keep speaking of that takes place at Christ's return. The first two deal with the resurrection of the Church, the second two deal with Christ's return. Two entirely different events. And the "two" mentioned, Salty, is in regards to this: You only give one of the events, what is lacking is the resurrection. No, I want you to show me resurrection in the quote you provided. You are eisegetically imposing your doctrine into the text. Show the resurrection you keep declaring occurs in the Second Coming. The only resurrection is the first resurrection in Revelation 20, and that involves Tribulation Martyrs...only. I agree, but you saying that the Rapture occurs at this time is what is in view: you have no Biblical Basis for your doctrine, it is a fanciful conclusion arrived at because you don't fully understand resurrection. Again, an understanding of the New Birth is vital, and should precede engaging in eschatological discussions. Get that wrong, or don't understand it fully, and one's eschatology is going to be in error. But not in Zechariah nor the Gospels. You are imposing that into the text. No, we take what is written and seek to understand it in light of all relevant texts. You have not done that. You have imposed the Rapture where it is never mentioned. I think that is necessary, yes. Because your doctrine merges foundational teachings concerning Christ with the completion the New Testament brings to these Doctrines. Salty: kind of wish you'd make up your mind. My doctrine is consistent. You can review the posts and you will find no discrepancies or contradictions. That you are having difficulty interpreting the posts is seen in your confusion above concerning the "two." You are doing the same thing with Scripture. I don't say that to be harsh, my friend, just trying to make you see where the weakness of your defense lies. If you would deal with the OP alone, we could save ourselves a lot of time. It's quite simple, really, the Day of the Lord is not something we have to fear because we have been delivered from that wrath, which is contrasted with temporal tribulation that the Lord promised we would undergo as long as we are in the world: John 16:33 King James Version (KJV) 33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. Believers can expect temporal tribulation, but we have been delivered from the wrath to come, which in 1 Thessalonians cannot be viewed as anything but the Tribulation itself. The Day of the Lord is not just the Lord's Return, but involves the tribulation which HE, in judgment of the wicked, imposes upon the children of darkness. Not at all. All of groan within ourselves awaiting the redemption of our bodies, deliverance from a cursed world and condition. Just a weak argument. You are neglecting the context of 1 Thessalonians itself, because we see that they are troubled about the tribulation they are going through. In regards to that, Paul basically states "I already told you that you would go through this." But the tribulation that will come, that is, thee wrath of God poured out...they do not need to be troubled about, because we they have been delivered from the wrath to come. Read the entire book a couple of times, it doesn't take that long, maybe ten minutes per read. Familiarize yourself with the overall context so you can place the parts in a proper context. That is just a basic Christian teaching. Of course we are to be aware, and the armor is for our temporal existence...not so we can make it through the wrath of God. That is just basic. That coming "as a thief" is not for the Church, but for the children of darkness. That coming is in wrath, which is not the case concerning the Rapture. Continued...

Salty: you finaly did what you've wrongly accused me of, you added Darby's Pre-trib secret Rapture idea to that Scripture when it is not there at all. Don't be absurd, lol. I simply pointed out what Paul teaches here. The Darby Argument is both weak and pathetic. Try addressing the Scripture. Again, unless you understand Christ's ministry, you will remain confused about a great number of things. Christ's earthly ministry was specific to Israel...alone: Matthew 10:5-6 King James Version (KJV) 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew 15:22-24 King James Version (KJV) 22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. The Lord's own teaching cannot be denied. This reiterates the fact that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not a revealed truth to man, though it was foretold in prophecy. This is another understanding one must come to when trying to properly understand the Rapture. Christ ministered primarily to Israel in fulfillment of prophecy concerning Messiah, but not one person can be said to understand the Gospel prior to the revelation of the Holy Spirit beginning at Pentecost. The closest person we can find is JOhn the Baptist: John 1:29 King James Version (KJV) 29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. But not even the greatest Prophet among men understood the Gospel that was at this time still a mystery. He never understood this and placed faith in Christ and His death, though He prophesied of the Gospel as many Old Testament passages did: Matthew 11 King James Version (KJV) 1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities. 2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, 3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another? Not even the greatest of Old Testament Prophets was privy to the Mystery of the Gospel. No-one was. Therefore, you impose instruction for Israel, particularly the Israel that will be alive in the day of Christ's return (Let him that readeth understand)..on the Church. There was no Church prior to Pentecost. It can be viewed as secret based on the facts that... 1)...the Rapture was a mystery, thus "secret;" 2)...when the Rapture takes place God will send strong delusion on those that are already deceived, natural, and without the ability to understand the spiritual things of God. And the Rapture definitely qualifies as belonging to the "spiritual things of God category," lol. Again...that day will not overtake us as a thief, because we have been delivered from the wrath to come, which is clearly a reference to the Tribulation, because Paul contrasts that with the tribulation they had been told to expect in their temporal lives, which, by the way, was a primary reason for their concern and need to be comforter. That does not negate the teachings which without controversy point out that the Church will not go through the Tribulation. You say it is the Angels coming with Him despite the fact that you argue previously about the saints coming with Him. How can they come with Him if they are not already with Him, and how do we reconcile the Rapture at His Return and the saints being with Him? And how do we have a Millennial Kingdom comprised only of glorified saints? Show me the Church in the events described in Revelation. You won't be able to. Only Jews and Gentiles. Those are the only two groups mentioned in Revelation within the events. They're not there because of the promise of the Lord, which is spoken to the Church: Revelation 3:10 King James Version (KJV) 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Salty: I've already commented on the usage of "asleep" pointing to the believer who's spirit never will die, even after death of the flesh. I do not hold to the 'dead-in-the-ground' theories of men's doctrines. To be absent from our flesh body is to be present with The Lord, the very idea of Eccl.12:5-7. And your commentary is in error, because the spirit does not "sleep," or in other words, the spirit of man does not die. But I am glad you reject Soul Sleep, on that at least we can be in agreement. However, my view is that men did not go to be with the Lord upon death until the Cross. It is at this time, I believe, that the Lord liberated the spirits in prison, who could not enter into the Most Holy, that is, God's presence in Heaven, until first their sins were atoned for. The sacrifices of the Levitical Economy could not take away sins, thus every Old Testament saint died still needing their sins forgiven. The sacrifice of Christ, on the other hand, is the means of eternal redemption for believers: Hebrews 9:13-15 King James Version (KJV) 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. We cannot impose New Covenant Standards into the Old, and that is precisely what you are doing by laying again a foundational doctrine of resurrection, quite in conflict with the teachings of Scripture. Continued...

First, this is what you need to understand about the resurrection of the Church, which takes place at the Rapture. Because you mistake the Rapture for a/the general resurrection taught in the Old Testament, you are not understanding the distinction of the mystery. And this is warned against here: Hebrews 6:1-2 King James Version (KJV) 1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. The mystery revealed by Paul would not be a mystery if the first principles of resurrection, which were foundational, are what Paul is teaching in regards to the resurrection the Church receives at the Rapture. Secondly... ...what about them. The thing to consider in regards to them is that this declarative preaching occurred...while Christ was physically still in the tomb. Understand? That means that this takes place before Christ is risen, and because Christ is the firstborn from the dead, we cannot have these He preached to resurrected before Himself. Read these again... 1 Corinthians 15:20 King James Version (KJV) 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. Colossians 1:18 King James Version (KJV) 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. ...and I hope the significance will come to you. You need to understand the difference between spiritual resurrection (the new birth) and physical resurrection that takes place when the Rapture occurs. We are born of God at salvation... John 1:12-13 King James Version (KJV) 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. This is a spiritual resurrection that occurs in our flesh. This cannot be confused with the redemption of our bodies, as noted here: Romans 8:23 King James Version (KJV) 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Ephesians 1:13-14 King James Version (KJV) 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. This is the resurrection Paul is speaking about concerning the Rapture of the Church, the Two Witnesses, and I believe also the Tribulation Martyrs. In John 3 what is in view is not the resurrection of the physical body, but the resurrection, spiritually, of the natural man. A study of the New Birth will greatly help in the discussion, and unfortunately, many that try to understand resurrection are woefully lacking in understanding of the new birth itself, which denies them a proper understanding of the Rapture to begin with. Continued...

Salty: I'm follow what you've surmised here perfectly, and showed Scripture evidence to prove you wrong. But you keep trying to mis-directs to idle points away the resurrection happening on the day of Christ's return. The fact that you are still not addressing what has been presented indicates that you are not following, because you keep reiterating arguments already dealt with. How do you ever expect to progress in this discussion if you keep trying to use the same arguments? Address the Scripture provided, and show why my "surmising's" are in error, and quit being slothful in your responses...post the relevant Scripture and comment as to how it is relevant to your defense of your position. If "those alive on the earth" are changed as Paul describes here...then you have the Millennial Kingdom being populated by glorified saints. Can't you understand the dilemma that raises? That means there are no physical believers to repopulate and supply those that rebel against God, who are destroyed at the end of the Millennial Kingdom. And nowhere in the Gospels, when His Return is in view, do we see a resurrection. We see saints left, and unbelievers taken. We know how they are taken based upon the Lord's words here: Luke 17:22-25 King James Version (KJV) 22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. He goes on to say... Luke 17:30-37 King James Version (KJV) 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. This is what happens in that day, Salty: unbelievers are destroyed (physically), and believers are left alive...to enter into the Kingdom. That is where the population that rebels against God at the end of the Millennial Kingdom come from. You can dance around the OP all you like, but it is going to be a constant goad to your doctrine. Salty: commonly known to who, the Pre-trib secret Rapture school? You still insist on bringing up the subject of Lazarus when Jesus raised Lazarus' flesh only as a teaching example of the resurrection for His disciples and those might believe on Him in that time of His first coming; it was not the actual resurrection, so continually trying to use that as an example for what you propose for the end of this world does not match; there is no resurrection of the flesh, for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God like Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor.15. No-one said it was the "actual resurrection." That's the point you are missing: Lazarus was only bodily raised, he was not glorified. His resurrection can be distinguished from the resurrection of the saints that follow Christ's resurrection. And you are in error on this point as well: there is no resurrection of the flesh, for flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God like Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor.15. Glorification is in fact a resurrection of the flesh. That you would say this reveals quite a bit. The glorified body is a spiritual body, and if you would read the rest of 1 Corinthians you would see how Paul clearly defines the difference. The body the Lord was raised in was the same body He died in, so here are a couple of verses for you to consider: John 20:25-28 King James Version (KJV) 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Luke 24:39 King James Version (KJV) 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. What we can conclude from these two passages is that the body in which Christ was raised in was the same body and that it is not devoid of flesh and bones. In other words, it is a substantial body that can be seen touched, and the Lord contrasts that with the spirit when it is separated from the physical body at death. In eternity we will have a body which has been raised in glorified form just as our Lord was raised. That is why He is called the first-born from the dead. Those bodies will be, I believe, similar to that of Angels, though the distinction is that while Angels can manifest in physical form to interact in the physical universe, we have no record of them first being physical or having their beginning in the physical universe as we have. Those bodies will be suitable for existence both in the spiritual realm (Heaven) as well as the physical universe (the new heavens and earth), much like Angels can abide in both. Our state now, being within bodies in need of redeeming, is that of not having the ability to enter into the spiritual realm. Only our spirits can do that, and only at death (though we can speculate in regards to Paul and John in regards to their visits to Heaven). Continued...

Furthermore, since you endorse Darby's 'Pre-trib secret Rapture' theory per your post on another thread, accepting that theory means accepting Darby's dream of Christ gathering His saints to live in Heaven during the tribulation, and then returning after the tribulation, an idea which is not written in God's Word. Jesus returns one time, on the Day of The Lord. That's the timing Apostle Paul gave in 1 Thess.5 and 2 Thess.2, which also agrees with the timing given at the beginning of Zech.14. Again, this is not Darby's invention, simply a teaching directly from the First Century, revealed by Paul. Your mistake is to have Christ returning twice. When He returns, He will return just as He went, as described in Zechariah 14. As already mentioned...no mention of resurrection in either of the two posts you have offered. 1 Corinthians 15:48-52 King James Version (KJV) 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. As mentioned repeatedly, here we have what Paul calls a mystery, a previously unrevealed truth. What that means is that the general resurrection taught in the Old Testament...cannot be what Paul has in view. Most were aware of the resurrection (regardless of whether they believed it or not, but...not one person knew about this event, which unlike the Second Coming events...occur in a moment, in the twinkling of the eye. The events of the Second coming take place over a period of time. Based on Daniel, the events that occur while the Kingdom is established have a 75 day window: Daniel 12:6-12 King James Version (KJV) 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. 8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. "A time, times, and half a time," according to the Jewish calendar, is 1260 days. We then have 1290 days, which is a thirty day difference. We then are given 1335 days which is a 75 day difference. This time begins at the time of the abomination which makes desolate, that starts the countdown. The extended days correlate to the events described in regards to the Lord's Return (v.11). But the Rapture takes place immediately. In a moment, the twinkling of an eye. That there is no resurrection mentioned in connection with the Lord's description of events (apart from those who die during the Tribulation), coupled with the fact that we know the Sheep and Goat Judgment, which deals with both believers and unbelievers, will not take place in a moment, and adding the fact that the resurrection of the dead described just prior to this passage... Daniel 12 King James Version (KJV) 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. ...the obvious conclusion to draw is that two events must be in view. The emphasis refers to the Tribulation, as seen also here: Matthew 24:15-21 King James Version (KJV) 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Daniel 12 refers to the Tribulation, so Paul cannot be talking about the resurrection spoken of in vv.1-2. It would not be a mystery if this is what Paul has in mind, because this was common knowledge. In v.1 it should be noted that Michael, the great prince of Israel will stand up and Israel will be delivered. We do not have to impose the resurrection of the dead (unjust) at the time of deliverance, and we don't because Revelation 20 makes it clear there is a thousand year period between the return of Christ and the raising of those that will be consigned to Hell (the Lake of Fire) for eternity: Revelation 20:4-5 King James Version (KJV) 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. This is the only resurrection associated with the return of Christ, and it is specific to those who have not "worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands." In other words...only tribulation Martyrs can be dogmatically stated to being glorified when Christ returns and establishes the Millennial Kingdom. We could debate whether they are raised in glorified form, because in the Kingdom, a bodily resurrection (as opposed to glorification) can just as equally result in a thousand year life due to the fact that in the Kingdom life-spans will be greatly increased, restored to the life-spans we see in men closer to creation (Adam, Methuselah, et cetera). Isaiah writes... Isaiah 65:19-20 King James Version (KJV) 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. So while I would not be overly dogmatic concerning the Tribulation Martyrs being glorified, I lean heavily towards the fact that they are based on the description. But the point still remains: you need to provide Scripture that shows the Rapture at the Return of Christ, rather than what Scripture consistently teaches which is that when Christ Returns...the living among believers (Sheep, Wheat) will enter into the Kingdom physically (not glorified), and the living among unbelievers (Goats, Tares, Chaff, Evil Trees)...will be destroyed (not resurrected into bodies suited for Hell, which the dead (unjust) will not be raised and cast into until one thousand years after the Lord's Second Coming. And that swings us back to the OP, in that if you continue to insist that the Rapture takes place at the time of the Lord's Return, you must reconcile how glorified saints (and this all that would be left alive) enter into the Kingdom and then produce the offspring which is said to rebel against God at the end of the Millennial Kingdom: Revelation 20:7-9 King James Version (KJV) 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Continued...

Okay, so far so good. The code seems to integrate properly, so hopefully response time can be increased.

Salty, sorry to have to remove some of the quotes but for some reason the code you are using throws everything in disarray when I try to respond to them. I am now trying to respond on another forum (though not posting it there) and importing it back to this one. False argument: I never said the raising of Lazarus was the resurrection, but a resurrection. One among a number of resurrections which take place before Christ's Resurrection. But Christ is the First to be raised in a glorified body. Then the Rapture. Then the Two Witnesses. Then the Tribulation Martyrs. Those are the only resurrections relevant to the discussion of the Rapture. The resurrection that takes place at the Great White Throne will be the resurrection where the dead are raised after the thousand year period of the Millennial Kingdom. That is not in question. How many times do I have to say your proof-texts apply to Christ's Return? What your proof-texts are lacking is tying the Rapture to His physical Return. 1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV) 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. The Day of the Lord will not overtake us as a thief. That is clear. And Paul goes on to say why... 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Again, Paul makes it clear that for the Church...being alive or dead makes no difference in regards to the Day of the Lord. What he is saying is that the Day of the Lord is sudden, unexpected wrath that comes upon the children of darkness. Now let's back up to ch.4 and see this in the context of the previous teaching: 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 King James Version (KJV) 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. The same subject is in view here, a teaching meant to comfort those that mistake the tribulation they are going through with the Tribulation that will come. We back up again: 1 Thessalonians 3 King James Version (KJV) 1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone; 2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith: 3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. 4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. 5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain. Now here we see Paul distinguish between tribulation which he has already told them they would go through, and the tribulation associated with the Day of the Lord. Now let's see if we can make this tribulation fit what he says in ch.5: 1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV) 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Two entirely different issues: the first is tribulation which they should already know they are going to go through, and the second the wrath of God poured out on the children of darkness. The first they will go through...the second they will not. Chapter Four tells them why they will not go through the wrath of the Day of the Lord. The Lord tells why overcomers will not go through that time here... Revelation 3:10 King James Version (KJV) 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Continued...

Be back in a bit.

Wingnut, as a parting shot on my part, lol, you might remind your antagonist that Jesus has not always existed. The Son of God has always existed, but Jesus the Christ has a beginning in temporal history in the womb of Mary. THat's why mention of HIm before that time is called prophecy. (sorry, just thought I would throw in something that might be seen as controversial before signing off, lol; and yes, some people tickle my facetious bone...) God bless.

I agree with all of this, for the record. Thanks for the post, Judith. God bless.

Whew! lol I say that for two reasons: first, because you have given a mercifully short post, and I am about done in for the day, lol; secondly, very glad you reject the Ten Lost Tribe mythology. I wouldn't argue with that, but just mention that it is just as likely, due to the sealing of the 144,000, that it may be Jews in that day leading the charge. That is just the impression I get. I think I recall somewhere Jews escorted, and you may be familiar with that and see that as a support. But again, not going to argue that. It's not an unreasonable view. I would have to do a bit of review to refresh my memory, though. Yes and no. Paul teaches that when we are Raptured we are henceforth from then on with the Lord. I believe we will minister, as glorified saints, much as the Angels minister among us today. I think we will reside in New Jerusalem which our Lord has gone before us to prepare, and that we will possibly "commute," lol. As far as residing on the earth, I am not really convinced of that, nor do I think the Lord must be confined to Jerusalem to fulfill prophecy concerning His rule at that time. Will He be there, probably, but I do not think He is confined there. We are told by Christ... Matthew 8:11 King James Version (KJV) 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. Which makes me lean very heavily in the belief that at least some Old Testament Saints will dwell there, which, as in the case of Abraham, is actually fitting, since it will be the culmination, physically, of the promises of God to and through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Now what I have not yet made a dogmatic conclusion on is this: will the Patriarchs and other Old Testament saints be glorified at this point? I lean heavily to the belief they will be, but, again, the Rapture is specific to the Dead and living IN Christ, so I have refrained from a dogmatic statement as of yet. It may be they are raised physically, but that too brings a bit of a dilemma as far as I am concerned, thus I lean towards them being glorified and being considered as IN Christ through the grace of God. So give me some time to consider the question a little more with a specific focus, as far as supplying Scripture to support that. This is one of those areas where we don't have too much to go on, and I am tired at this point and don't want to hastily reply. In a nutshell, my basic view is that the Church will have her home in Heaven permanently with the Lord, and that during the Millennial Kingdom, we will minister to men as Angels do today, though I think this will be a visible ministry as opposed to the Angels in our time being primarily disguised from view. Thanks for the questions, I always appreciate them, because hey are the motivators that cause us to get into the Word. God bless.

Sorry, no. The Rapture has us caught up, yes...off the earth, into the clouds, into the air. To deny that is to deny what the text plainly states. And there is nothing, as I already mentioned in the other thread, in either of these verses which refer to the Rapture. Nor, I would point out at this time, is there a mention of the Church being gathered to Jerusalem. They simply state where the Lord will return to the earth at. So you do want to deny Paul's teaching then. That is a result of buying into the Darby Argument. Not at Christ's return, no, it isn't. Agree with this part of the statement. This is a conclusion many have come to, but I ask you to supply the Scriptural Support for it. Again...no. Revelation 20:9 King James Version (KJV) 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. This is the camp of the saints living in the Tribulation. Unless you want to place the enemies of God, who are destroyed here...in the Holy City during the Kingdom. You don't really want to do that, do you? lol Agree with this as well. Notice in Ezekiel 39 that we see a description of the Supper of the Great God, called His sacrifice, and then in ch.40 we see the Temple described. A testimony to the harmony of the Prophecy of the Word of God. Same sequence there that we see in Revelation. Sorry, no. There will be a thousand year period before the Eternal State, where this takes place. If you note here... Revelation 20:11 King James Version (KJV) 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 21 King James Version (KJV) 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. ...you will see the heavens and the earth in which the Millennial Temple will reside has passed away before we see the description found in Revelation 22. This is the Eternal State, the new heavens and earth...not the Millennial Kingdom. Those "without" are most likely those that will never, as mentioned in several passages...enter into life. This establishes a contradictory doctrine to the basic principle that not only will nothing that offends enter into the Millennial Kingdom, we can be certain that nothing, that offends will enter the Eternal State. I will suggest a possible understanding of this, though, though it is designated as speculation and nothing else: it may be that those who commit the sins mentioned after salvation may lose privilege in the Eternal State, and entrance into the Holy City being denied is a reasonable suggestion. That they do not have access to the Tree of Life does not mean either they need it or that any believer in the Eternal State will need it, because we have eternal life through our union with God Himself. He is the source of Eternal Life, not the, or a...tree of life. While I agree that like Israel, the Church and the eventual collective people of God are a kingdom of priests, what I will say is that these dwelling places will not be found in the Millennial Kingdom. Fair enough. If you want to correlate what Ezekiel writes about to the new heavens and earth, I would be glad to see the Scripture. God bless.

No disappearing mentioned. Off the earth...that is clearly in the text. Sure they did. Look at Paul's statement above and look at the Lord's statement here: Revelation 3:10 King James Version (KJV) 10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. No-one is denying that. What is denied is making the Rapture and the Second Coming the same events. They are clearly not. When the Lord Returns those that are separated to HIs right hand are not said to be resurrected. They are not said to be gathered by Christ, but by Angels. Agreed. The two cannot be separated. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14King James Version (KJV) 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. And how can the Lord bring them with Him if they are not already with Him? Think about that, Salty. In vv.13-14 the reference is to the Return after the Tribulation: But what He states next... 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 King James Version (KJV) 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. ...explains how He will be able to bring them with Him. Thus Paul comforts their fears. And again, every description of Christ's return do not mention resurrection of those living on the earth. The only reference to resurrection at this time is the First Resurrection of Revelation 20. And by the way, "First" does not refer to a sequential meaning, but it is a reference to the first of two resurrections the Lord taught: John 5:29 King James Version (KJV) 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. There are only two resurrections available to men. The resurrection in Revelation 20 is called the first resurrection because it is a resurrection unto life. Sorry, but the resurrection of the dead in Christ takes place at the same time the resurrection of the living saints occurs. You are making two events of the Rapture and one event of what you should be distinguishing. It's right there... 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 King James Version (KJV) 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Continued...

Are you trying to infer that you are not... familiar with the difference between the sole word 'rapture' compared with the phrase 'pre-trib rapture' from a theory by John Nelson Darby in 1830's Britain? No, actually it is you inferring that, lol. Not sure how you could possibly conclude that I am not aware of the false argument that the Pre-tribulation Rapture was not taught until Darby invented it. Was that not the point of my post? In every thread I show that I support only a Pre-Trib view, and go to the effort of addressing the simplistic errors that lead people to the error of a mid, post, or a-mil view, and this by supporting the views I have with Scripture. How you arrived at this is beyond me. Perhaps you could point out what it is I said that might have made you doubt my consistent defense of the Pre-Trib Rapture? This I agree with, because those that recognize the teaching of the Rapture by Paul, in the First Century...have different views as to the timing. These are primarily pre, mid, and post. And most familiar with the discussion do not question whether there is a Rapture, and they certainly do not all embrace the Darby Argument. It is usually only those that are post who do so. No, that is incorrect. To believe in the resurrection on the day of the Lord's Return is to Scripturally in error. Let's keep that straight. To believe that the Rapture is occurs at the Lord's Return is not only error, but denies what Scripture actually teaches will happen when He returns. There is only one resurrection mentioned in regards to the events surrounding the Lord's Return, and that is the First Resurrection, which involves only the Tribulation Martyrs. That is Biblical fact. Imposing the Rapture into His Return simply does not make sense. The proof-texting done to arrive at that conclusion seems convincing from a topical glance, but when we examine all the relevant texts the only tenable position is that the Rapture has to take place before the Tribulation begins. That too is incorrect: "rapture" is actually an English word derived from the Latin derived from Middle French, which in turn comes from medieval Latin, which is then traced to the Latin Raptus, though I have heard there is a variant rapturos. I agree, because if you make the mistake of failing to identify and distinguish the difference between the Second Coming and the Rapture, you will surely look very foolish when you try to defend that position. I agree. We arrive at the timing of the event with simple deductive reasoning. Remove anything that is impossible and you will arrive, most likely, at the truth. Now what is impossible is that the rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation at Christ's return, because for starters...this leaves only three possibilities for who populates the Kingdom: no-one (which we know is impossible); unbelievers (which we know is impossible); glorified saints alone (which we know is impossible). Progressive Dispensational Theology has tried to evade this dilemma by making the Tribulation exclusive to the Middle East. The problem with that is, Scripture does not support that view. Anyone that would like to challenge my critique of that is welcome to do so. Try this on for size: (Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD)) On the subject of the Rapture, in Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote: “Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” I will have to appeal to Fair use because when I tried to insert the link it would not let me exit, so that is not an option until perhaps I can speak with the Moderators to find out how to do this without locking it up. By the way, you can search early references to the Rapture and educate yourself on why the Darby Argument is a pathetic cop-out. You owe it to yourself to do this, not to mention to your brothers and sisters in Christ. I would also recommend you look up chiliasm. Name sound funny? That's because that is what millennialism used to be called in the early Church, back when Latin was a primary language. IT can be traced back to the original Greek in the relevant texts as well as be seen as continuing in Latin. Think about that, my friend. But just like we don't go around talking about "the harpazo," neither do we go around speaking about chiliasm. That's like saying that the Global Flood "supposes the whole world was immersed," lol. It doesn't suppose it, that's why it is called a pre-trib rapture, because we know the Lord Returns at the end of the Tribulation. Sorry, no, the text is clear: 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 King James Version (KJV) 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Not sure how caught up in the clouds and in the air leaves you with the impression that the saints are not caught up into the clouds and in the air. Perhaps you could explain that for me. Continued...

That would be fine. We can see if it has an application to the question of the OP. I would ask for your basis for "Sheep Nations," though, if you don't mind. I will say up front I hope it doesn't involve the "Ten Lost Tribes of Israel," lol. I will try to PM a Moderator. Difficulty with quoting is enough to discourage, lol. I am having to enter the code manually. I was able to straighten out the jumbled post, by the way. Seems to be a matter of the code my antagonist used. When I removed it that multiple quoting disappeared. God bless.

======================================================================================= I asked you 21 poignant Questions directly regarding your position...what did I get back: Zero. The majority of what I got back were baseless Color Commentaries, these are just a few "Carpet Bombs" from your last few posts.... "You might as well as have thrown in a "therefore" while you were at it.", "Like I said, put a sunny day spin on it if you like", "You have indeed, lol.", "Oh, if you say it's okay...lol", "Biblically accurate and irrefutable. lol", "That's a good choice for you my friend" "I'm not sure you understand how ridiculous this argument is.", "Got it.", "Actually, it is not" "Hey, I wanna try, how about this one: Oceans are wet. Except when they dry up." "Did a PRO teach you that or did you work that out all by yourself? lol", "Usually I only have to deal with nonsense like this, psychobabble mumbo jumbo arguments...when I deal with atheists.", "The answer was right there." "I don't think you do. Not really." "Already did that." "Color Commentaries" and Baseless Assertions are a shout from the rooftops..... " TELL" for No Argument. They're employed when you get called Holding Deuce Seven Off Suit. Thanks for the Illustration Nice.... a Cherry on Top Baseless Assertion (Fallacy) x 4 to round out the motif. I'm gonna let you know right now......You're on Ignore, Permanently. "Carpet Bomb" Color Commentary post away!!! Like a said...a good choice for you my friend. God bless.

Hello Marilyn, I would agree for the most part with the exception of point #4: I do not view this as a reference to "Sheep Nations" in a national sense, but those who come out of other nations, as well as including those of Israel as well. While I have you, perhaps you can tell me why, like in the post just before yours, I think (the first response to Salty), the code decides to go nuts with multiple "(/quotes) at the bottom and won't let me fix them. I go into EDIT and remove the code but when I save changes...they are right back in there. Also, I have figured out how to utilize the emphasis prompts by switching the prompt above B, but I still cannot change the text size. Any advice? God bless.

Just trying to fix the code in a previous post. This forum has some things I m having difficulty with.

Salty: since when does the word 'resurrection' in God's Word NOT mean a raising from the dead? No-one is arguing that. lol As stated right there in the quote...it was a physical resurrection only. Now I could make this a little more complicated, which I was tempted to do in the first post: Matthew 27:51-53 King James Version (KJV) 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. It could be viewed as they resurrected at the time of the Cross, for this is when the veil of the Temple was rent, the earth did quake, and the rocks rent. "And many bodies of the saints arose" could have happened at the time of the Crucifixion, and they simply did not come out until after the Resurrection of the Lord. While I would not be dogmatic about this, if that is the case, that definitely denies they were glorified. And again, if they were glorified, I would think this would have more mention in the Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament. Glorification is not a reward, but a result of salvation. Romans 8:29-30King James Version (KJV) 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. The rewards of the saint are just that...reward. No aspect of salvation can be properly called reward. No, they were not, lol. Christ was raised in a glorified body, the saints raised at His Crucifixion/Resurrection do not have to be assumed as having been glorified as well. Some believe this, and I am not dogmatic against it, it is a possibility. However, it is irrelevant to the discussion of the Rapture, because the Rapture, again, would not be revealed until Paul taught about it some years later. That is what is relevant in this discussion and thread. No, salty, it doesn't, because we have multiple resurrection of people that were raised only to die again. Lazarus, for example, would be the firstborn from the dead if he had been glorified when resurrected. On the contrary, not only have I understood it, but I am showing you the error of your arguments, lol. The Rapture is a resurrection which involves a change in our bodies whether we have died or not. That is the spiritual aspect of resurrection which was a mystery. Bodily resurrection was not a mystery to the Old Testament saint, because there was division among the sects as to whether there was going to be a resurrection or not. So Paul's teaching, identified as a mystery, that is, a previously unrevealed truth, cannot be the resurrection of the dead as embraced by the Pharisees, for example. Or the one rejected by those ancient Annihilationist's...the Sadducees. They didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead (that is why they were sad, you see?) My fleshly mind is thinking of responding to your rudeness with a little humor, but I will refrain from that if I can. Relevance? God Himself appeared with those two Angels and had His feet washed, ate, and spoke face to face with Abraham. I view this as a Christophany, rather than just a Theophany, because it is just my belief that any time God has interacted with man directly it is the Son in view. Unlike the Lord's appearing to Abraham, the body which Christ arose in was the same body He died in, as evidenced by the scars. And there is no correlation between the physical manifestation of God and Angels in the Old Testament with the Incarnation or Resurrection of Christ. That body was specifically created in the womb of Mary for the express purpose of the Lord dying in it. They were not men...they were Angels. Spirit beings with the capability of taking on physical form. Thus this is irrelevant. It is about the same flesh glorified, my friend. It could be called new as to it's properties, now being spiritual bodies, but it is not a new body we will be raised in, but the same one we reside/d in in our lifetimes. No-one said they did. This is a false argument. Not new flesh bodies, the same bodies bodily resurrected, not glorified. If they did receive glorified bodies, and this of course would have had to have been after Christ's own resurrection, then they could not possibly die again. The glorified body is suited to eternal existence. The only problem with this is that...you have no Biblical basis on which to make this statement. IT falls under a heading of speculation and cannot be called Biblical truth. When Paul speaks of "sleep" he is referring to death, which has nothing to do with the spirit. We know that a man's spirit lives on after death, even those of unbelievers, who will also be resurrected in bodies suited for an eternal existence. Open that can of worms and chew on it. God bless.

I guess it is thought that throwing the word "fallacy" around is supposed to have some kind of impact. The only fallacy is to improperly identify a fallacy, which you have not yet done. Salty: the idea of not living upon the earth after the resurrection is the 'point' of the usage of the word fallacy. And to proof such an idea is... in fact a fallacy, the Zech.14 evidence is given. I never denied living on the earth after a resurrection. I gave the example of Lazarus to distinguish between bodily resurrection and the redemption of the body we call glorification, the first of which is the Resurrection of Christ. And again, The quote from Zechariah does not mention resurrection. You are imposing something into the text which is simply not there. So be more careful about charging others with fallacy. Not a single mention of resurrection. Salty: so when you study a subject at school, did you have to keep repeating lesson 1 even after you reached lesson 10, i.e., just because you don't see the word "resurrection" there does not mean it's not involved in that. As a matter of fact, you should... be intelligent enough to realize that... for anyone... to come WITH Jesus to that location in that timing, it would require the resurrection. Look, if you can't follow the conversation, great, I'll try to work with that. But let me remind you that the issue centered around the Rapture, which Paul, in the First Century, taught was a resurrection which involved the changing of the body of those that are still living...and have never died. Understand? That is what is commonly known as glorification, and is not speaking of only a bodily resurrection from the dead. We will be glorified which will make our bodies suited to an eternal existence. When Lazarus died and was bodily resurrected, he did not go to Heaven, but remained on the earth. He was not glorified, and I can tell you why we know that: 1 Corinthians 15:20 King James Version (KJV) 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. Colossians 1:18 King James Version (KJV) 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. No-one raised before Christ was raised in a glorified body. No-one. Agreed, this does depicts the Lord's Return and in fact shows that the physical inhabitants will flee...not be resurrected in the twinkling of the eye. Salty: the Zech.14:5 verse is about two events, the first about Jesus' warning for those in Judea to flee Jerusalem in prep for His coming because of that area being flattened (i.e., the "sudden destruction" Paul mentioned in 1 Thess.5). You only give one of the "two." And we can see Paul's instruction to the saints in your choice of proof-text: 1 Thessalonians 5 King James Version (KJV) 5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. The warning from Christ is for the generation that sees the events which transpire. We do not need the warning, because that day will not overtake us as a thief. Why? Because we will not be here. "Asleep" and "sleep" are simply euphemisms for death. Bodily death. You can see that in the account of Lazarus when the disciples mistook the Lord's reference to Lazarus being asleep as to mean he was simply taking rest. He says clearly "Lazarus is dead." You can also see that in the two verses posted above: one speaks of sleep, the other says death, both refer to the same thing. "Soul Sleep" is a false doctrine embraced by those that refuse to accept the Word of God as it is written and must change the meanings to support their doctrine. It is a shame but this doctrine has gained popularity in Modern Christendom in the last twenty years. So show that in the quote from Zechariah. The only ones we can dogmatically state are resurrected at the Lord's Return are the Tribulation Martyrs. Funny that you post this text then ask a question from another. Above, we see the Angels (two men) refer to Christ's return, which correlates to the quote from Zechariah above as well as to Revelation 19. Again...no mention of resurrection. Salty: you're being silly, my correlation is about the events of Jesus' second coming which ALSO involves the time of the resurrection! Did you miss the point there about Jesus' COMING AGAIN, FROM HEAVEN? Do I have to get you to re-read Lesson 1 again? My friend, your proof-text is irrelevant. No-one said Zechariah doesn't speak of the Lord's Return, in either passage quoted, but the point is that there is no resurrection of the living ever stated in correlation to the Lord's Return apart from the Tribulation Martyrs. So the point you seem to be missing is that Paul's teaching concerning the Rapture is that everyone in the Church is resurrected into glorified bodies. Another would be that resurrection is a foundational doctrine already revealed, the Rapture was a Mystery revealed by Paul in the First Century. In the Rapture Christ is never said to return to earth, and in His Second Coming He does. Not only that, but when He does, the believing that are left alive at the end of the Tribulation are not glorified, they are not resurrected at all. How would they produce the descendants that will rebel against God and join Satan at the end of the Millennial Kingdom if they are glorified? The Lord taught that in the Resurrection we would be like the Angels, meaning...we would not be married. Which implies we will not have children. Unless you want to suggest that glorified saints produce offspring which then populate the Kingdom and rebel against God. Continued...