S.T. Ranger

Why won't it let me use the functions (i.e., bold, italics, size, et cetera) when I am in the quote box? I hit the function above "B" but it disables the functions, and when I hit it within the quote and they become functional again, when I highlight what I want to emphasize or change the size on, my highlight disappears. Any helpful tips on this will be greatly appreciated.

============================================================================================================================== Well the Holy Spirit "In-Dwells" The Church FOREVER. Again, you are still making this to mean that the Holy Spirit Himself is taken out of the world with the Church, when the Holy Spirit is Omnipresent. It is an impossibility that God should cease to be in the world. The Restrainer is taken out of the way. Let's stick to what the text actually states: 2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV) 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; In view is not the Rapture, but the Tribulation. They are concerned that the Day of the Lord has begun. Paul writes to assure them that it cannot be in process because he has already told them that there must be a falling away first, and the man of sin, the Antichrist be revealed. Their concerns about having missed the Rapture are unfounded, because if the Rapture had taken place...then the falling away would have already taken place as well, and the man of sin revealed. 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. This is what the man of sin will do. And we see that in Revelation: Revelation 13:4-8 King James Version (KJV) 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Now the question is...can Antichrist do these things while the Two Witnesses are alive? The obvious answer is no. The Two Witnesses also minister for forty two months, which establishes the first half of the Tribulation. We know by the teaching of Daniel, Christ, and Paul...that Antichrist will stand in the Holy Place... [size=5}Matthew 24:15 King James Version (KJV) 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) ...and we know that he cannot do that as long as the Two Witnesses are alive... Revelation 11 King James Version (KJV) 11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. ...which indicates that the two forty-two month periods are not concurrent. 2 Thessalonians 2 King James Version (KJV) 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. So let's recap: Paul writes to them to assure them that the Day of the Lord has not already begun, hence the Rapture cannot possibly have taken place. There must be a falling away, and the man of sin revealed, which cannot happen until the Restrainer, not the Church...is taken out of the way. Not out of the world. The Church being caught up is not the point Paul makes, but the falling away, and the man of sin being restrained ceasing. No-one is arguing that the indwelling of God is not eternal, that is simply a basic truth taught in Scripture. But where your argument is in error is to think that because indwelt believers are caught up...this means the Holy Spirit ceases to be in the World, as though God is confined to the Body of Christ. Of course the Holy Spirit "goes with the Church," but the Holy Spirit is not confined to the Church. And again, note the Restrainer is taken out of the way, not the world. He will still be ministering to people as He has always done from the beginning of man's existence. Again, no argument concerning the eternality of the indwelling of God in the believer. That never changes. He was "with the disciples at the time of this teaching, but Christ taught that when He was come, He (the Comforter, Holy Spirit) would be in them. How can the Holy Spirit be in members of the Body of Christ and still perform His convicting ministry to the world? He is omnipresent. He is God. Continued...

I am at a disadvantage in that I cannot quote you, an issue that I thought would be resolved after five posts, but apparently there is more to it than that, lol. So I will simply answer in descending order. 1A. You say the "Rapture must take place before the Antichrist is revealed," and then give the Rapture and the taking out of the way of the Holy Spirit as the reasoning behind this. I would suggest to you that while the Church is taken out of the world, the Holy is not, He is taken "out of the way." That is a significant point we must remember when we look at this passage. Secondly, we would have to apply or impose spiritual understanding upon natural men for my point to be refuted. Third, when the Church is Raptured, while the Holy Spirit, Who is omnipresent, is not taken out of the world, the influence of the Holy Spirit through the Church ceases to be a restraining factor in this world. The Church is Raptured, and the impact we have had in this world ceases, which is coupled with both spiritual blindness to begin with, the deception of the Antichrist who has now free of the restraint once imposed, and...the great delusion God sends upon those that "received not the love of the truth." In chapter one of 2 Thessalonians we see a similar statement regarding those who "know not God and obey not the Gospel." Again, not sure how this refutes my statement. You have the Holy Spirit being Raptured with the Church as though He is not still in the world, but confined to the Body of Christ. 1B. You say that it is at this time that Antichrist makes the covenant, and I would agree with that, because the covenant Antichrist effects is broken at the mid-point of the Tribulation, where I believe we see the true unveiling of Antichrist for who he really is. Many people will be deceived by him, and I think he will answer a lot of questions for people, one of them possibly what happened in the Rapture. Again, we see the great delusion given men at the time of the Tribulation, which is discontinued only for those that are saved during this period. And it's driving me nuts not to be able to quote, lol. 2. "Moreover..." The problem you have here is that "Christians that have read Daniel" will not be able to mark their calendars, because when the Rapture takes place and the Tribulation begins...there are no Christians in the world. That's the point. You will not find the Church in the events described in Revelation, that is, within the Tribulation. All members of the Body, alive and dead...are caught up after having been resurrected bodily. We can see this illustrated in the Rapture of the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11. Now, those who turn to Christ during the Tribulation will very much be able to track the time. It is my view that the Two Witnesses minister in the first half, are killed, resurrected, and caught up to Heaven, and then Antichrist's reign of terror truly begins. Therefore passages stating the timing of the Day of the Lord remain intact, because we still do not know when this will take place. Furthermore, those given strong delusion will still not understand that they are going through the Tribulation, because they will have embraced Antichrist. Your argument again imposes something that Paul states dogmatically is not impossible in a number of passages, which is they will not be spiritually discerning of spiritual events. And you are forgetting that Paul wrote that this day will not come upon us as a thief in the night. So this point too does not negate a Pre-trib Rapture. You say "Either the above passages are true/correct" and I can stop you right there...they are. The problem is not that they are not correct, the problem is making those in view...Christians. This can only be said of the quote from 2 Peter, where it is not the Tribulation in view, but that described in Revelation 20 and 21, the passing away of this current universe. We have to place each passage in it's proper context, and Matthew 24, for example, is not a Rapture passage, it deals with the Lord's Return after the Tribulation ends. 3. Some prophecy has more than one application, such as prophecy in Daniel applying both to Antiochus Epiphanes as well as the final and ultimate Antichrist. If you notice in Ezekiel 39 you will see that after this destruction of the enemies of God, there are given two time frames concerning what takes place after they are destroyed: seven months, and seven years. While some will separate Old Testament Prophecy from New Testament Prophecy, I would remind you that Christ Himself spoke of a future fulfillment of the Abomination of Desolation. His warning is, "When you see these things happen...flee!" It is not a coincidence that the Supper of the Great God resembles what is described in Ezekiel 39, nor is it a coincidence Ezekiel then proceeds to speak about the Kingdom. The same process takes place in regards to the events described in Revelation. The Tribulation takes place, and at the end, the Lord Returns. Apart from those immediately destroyed (surrounding Jerusalem), what then takes place is the separation of the believing from the unbelieving. The unbelieving are destroyed as well (go into eternal judgment), and the believing enter into that Kingdom. For seven years, Ezekial (39) tells us, the inhabitants of the land will use the cast off weapons of the enemies of God...for firewood. The first mention of a Forensic Crew is made here, lol, in that those that pass through the land will mark the bones of the fallen, and there will be those with the specific job of burying the bones that are missed in the seven months spent in cleansing the land of their corpses. Where was this fulfilled in ancient times? Your own caveat illustrates the similarity more than it illustrates unrelated prophecy. 4. I am not sure what you are asking in regards to Revelation 19:16. The order of events are thus: Christ returns, the enemies of God are destroyed, Satan is bound, and the Kingdom established, given a length of one thousand years. At this time, one of the greatest misconceptions about the Rapture is perpetrated in Revelation 20, where Post-Trib believers reason that because this is called the "First Resurrection," this must mean that the Rapture takes place here. This is wrong for a number of reasons. First, if we look at the Greek we will see that "First" or protos, is not secluded to a definition of "first in series," meaning, it is not always used to denote order of succession. The same word is used of priests we know were not the first priests, of estates we know were not the first estates, and commandments we know were not the first commandments. Secondly, only those that died during the Tribulation are resurrected at this time. We know this because they did not receive the mark of the beast. While non-mention cannot establish doctrine, we can say that since the Word of God is specific as to who is raised at this time, we can place trust in the fact that these are the ones raised. Third, we know this is not the "first" resurrection...even in Revelation. The Two Witnesses are raised prior to this event, which makes the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs the second resurrection. Fourth, and last for now, not one thing in the order of events in Revelation 19-20 denies a Pre-Trib Rapture. But it does fit with what we read elsewhere, such as the Sheep and Goat Judgment which takes place after the Lord's return. 5. I would agree with the "speculation of "most scholars," lol, because the Sheep and Goat Judgment fits nicely in that 75 day period. Furthermore, it also reconciles how Satan can be bound a thousand years yet still make an appearance at the end of the thousand years. Because he is bound at the end of the Tribulation, which Scripture makes clear is bound to a 1260 day period, the 75 day period in which the establishment of the Kingdom takes place leaves a 75 day period for Satan to be active in at the end of the thousand year Kingdom, meaning, the two thousand year periods (Satan's binding and the Kingdom itself) do not begin at the same time. Remember, the Lord taught often concerning the Kingdom, and the bottom line is that the "bad" is separated from the "good" (i.e., a catch of fish as in the parable of the dragnet), because nothing that defiles can enter into that Kingdom. We also know that no-one who is not a born again believer can enter into the Kingdom, which is another example of multiple applications to a singular doctrinal statement. No-one enters into the Spiritual Kingdom apart from being born again, and it is equally true that no-one will enter into the physical Kingdom either. So we have the Lord's return, and then there is the need for the judgment which separates the unbelieving from the believing during the process of establishing the Kingdom. 6. Of course sheep know they are sheep, lol. John 10:14 King James Version 14 I am the Good Shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. Hopefully the restrictions concerning quoting will not continue, which will make it a little easier to respond. Thanks for the response.

Read 1 Corinthians 2 and notice that the hidden wisdom of God is revealed by the Spirit to men. Most will read "Eye hath not seen, and hear hath not heard..." and make it apply to Heaven, as though we simply cannot understand just how great Heaven is and will be. That's not what is in view. What is in view is the Gospel of Christ, which, had the princes of this world known it, they would not have either crucified Christ, nor allowed any harm come to Him. In Ephesians 3 we have the same thing in view: Paul is trying to express his understanding of the Mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other ages, but is now revealed, just as Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 2, by the Spirit. Your question is not very specific, but I think I understand your question and will say that this represents that the Mystery of the Gospel was not common knowledge to even those in "heavenly places," meaning, not even Angels nor demons were privy to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. "Heavenly places" is used in Ephesians 1:3, 20; 2:6; 3:10. In Ephesians 1:20, Christ is said to be in "heavenly places" (places being an insertion) by being seated at the right hand of God. Therefore, I would suggest that the hidden wisdom of God, which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, was just as much declared and proclaimed to the spiritual realm as it is in our own. In other words, Heaven was not waiting in anticipation for the Gospel to be revealed, but that this was a mystery even there. Great question. Hope that helps.

In response to the list provided: 1. "a secret coming of Jesus Christ for the Church before the Tribulation." This is actually a really bad argument offered by many post-trib believers because a "secret coming" is not in view to begin with. What is in view is the fact that when the Antichrist is revealed, there will be two things which make the Rapture something not understood by unbelievers: first, the deception of Antichrist, and secondly and more important is that God will cause the unbelievers to have great delusion. Thus, it is not a matter of the Rapture being secret, but a matter of unbelievers not understanding what has happened, and buying into whatever explanation/s Antichrist will offer. 2. "An invisible coming of Christ for the Church." Like unto the first argument, the unbelieving world will not be privy to the Rapture. Understand that the Rapture is first and foremost a resurrection. Secondly, that resurrection is into glorified bodies, which will have access to both the physical as well as the spiritual realm, because we are made at that time suitable for entrance to Heaven itself. That those not raptured will not be able to witness the Rapture is not something we should think unreasonable. 3. "A two part second Advent." This too is a false argument. The Rapture is not equated to, or said to occur at the time of the Lord's Return. It is a separate event in which the Church is caught up, rather than the Return in which Christ returns to earth. His Return is well documented in Revelation 19, and we see that no-one will fail to know of His return. The enemies of God will be physically destroyed, and just as we see prophesied in Ezekiel 39, we know they are physically destroyed because the fowls of the air are called to feast on their carcasses. This is called the Supper of the Great God. Following this, as shown in Matthew 25, the Lord will send out His Angels to gather and to separate the believing from the unbelieving survivors. In the Rapture, Christ personally collects every single member of the Body, beginning with the dead in Christ, then we which remain (are still alive). The Rapture is one event, and the Second Advent is one event, and we can see the distinguishing differences between these two events easily. 4. "A Scriptural distinction of Jesus coming for His Church, versus His coming with His Church." I am at a bit of a disadvantage in that I am limited as a new member, but we see Christ coming with His saints in Revelation 19. Furthermore, when He returns, we see the Sheep and Goat Judgment, which cannot be reconciled to Paul's teaching concerning the Rapture. Obviously different events which have to be distinguished.