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We have scriptures and we discussed scripture.

King Abimeleh the Canaan King said to Abraham. You have sin against me and my people by telling me that Sarah is your sister and the Lord promised me and the whole Nation and we are sterile. You sin and the Lord punished me and the whole Nation. Figure this one out. It's like Abraham had immunity to sin. Imputed righteousness.

I say that you have enough to sit down and read Genesis 17th and try to connect to it. You can asked someone who knows the English language even a simple person and ask him what does it say? And you can do that for your self. With self confidence carefully. Understand what it is written down. You do not need to be an English professor.

God gave you Genesis to read he wants to guide you himself. You, Genesis 17th and the Holy Spirit and a sound mind. You have to use what he has given you.

Sorry you have Genesis and you have the blessings to have a copy this is why I point earlier read it for your self without other people telling you what it means. They had to obey at the time of Cirumcision there is no confession of faith. Like is with the water baptism of an adult. Eight weeks old baby was circumcised. Abraham who circumcised adults never did any rituals for confession. And later he circumcised babies which it is impossible.

You have to read Isaiah 1 from verse one to understand that God was telling them who were in the Sinai Covenant that He will not forgive their sins even though they offered the sacrifices for the forgiveness of their sins. He told them let's reason together you are not repenting. You say that we will sin and then we offered a sacrifice for our sins. God said you are in deep sin inspite of your sacrifices for sin because you are not doing it with a contrite heart. Lets reason together if you offered the sacrifices for the forgiveness of your sins with a contrite heart then I will forgive your sins and make you clean without spots. And to do that they had to be Israelites or Jews and they had to go to the Temple and give their sacrifices to the Priests in the Temple to slain or kill the sacrifice animal and take the blood from the dead Animal Lamb or goat and do the Atonement for their sins. At that time the Sinai Covenant was in place and there was no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood the sacrificial animal had to die and the Priest collects the blood and make the Atonement at the Altar and splash the sinner with the blood of the Atonement and his sin was forgiven. Till the next time when he sins again another sacrifice in the Temple for the Atonement of his sin. It was costly to have your sin forgiven as a deterrant for the people to be careful not to sin. Verse 18 says that God will not forgive them unless for Israelites only deeply repent and promise not to do it. Applies to Israelites under the Covenant of Sinai and before the death of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Choose Life our sins are forgiven in Jesus Christ death and resurrection. He died he payed the penalty for our sins which were upon him at the time of his death.

God told him to circumsized everyone but the Cirumcision did not included in the promises of the Covenant. Only to Issac and later to Jacob with whom God repeat the blessings of Abraham to them and all the children of Jacob and he called him Israel in him all his children were included and the foreigners to be included had to be adopted by a family of one of the tribes. How many souls went down to Egypt. 77 the backbone of the Nation of Israel.

@Anne2 If you draw a parallel to Abraham and the Covenant of Cirumcision and look at what Abraham did later on and what Judah did and the crimes of the other twelve Patriarhs nothing to say about Benjamin. And how they worship other God's even Moses who grew up in Pharaoh's Palace and the Lord still considered them to be his people, his Nation. Israel in my Son. Let my people go. Then you can see that their sins were not counted against them and they continued to be the Children of Abraham and the Nation of God in the Covenant of Cirumcision and they continued to be Gathered to Abraham in the Bossom of Abraham at their death time. They did not have forgiveness of sins they had the imputed righteousness of Abraham their sins like the sins of Abraham were not counted against them. Much like our sins are not counted against us in Jesus Christ. David understood exactly that because under the law they were Judge for their sins and he looked back to the Covenant of Cirumcision and he said bless is he to whom the Lord will not count his sins against him. In the Covenant of Cirumcision there was not Judgement for their sins. I hope you can see that and they were not cut off from the people of God and Abraham.

@Mr. M Please ask the questions to the specific issue at hand to have the chance to elaborate. Please within the Genesis context chapter 17 only. If it is about someone else the questions has to be to them. After we go through chapter 17 and take it apart then we can look at some others

At this time we are in Abraham the Lord imputed righteousness to him. Because he believed in what God promised him. Abraham never went to look for a blessing to anyother God. When he believed that God will still give him children inspite of his age God declared him a righteous man by degree. Till the Covenant of Cirumcision that required the obedience of Abraham to the Cirumcision and God included only Isaac in the imputed righteousness of Abraham. The Lord from the beginning wanted to have a Nation for himself from Abraham. The Nation of God had to be in righteousness to be his children. Their children were born to God they were God's children from the womb they will be born to him. They had to wait for eight days till the Mother the child were purified. Then they did the Cirumcision. Definitely this is what God required the sign in the flesh. I am not sure if Abraham connected to that in Genesis 15 but sure he connected to that in Genesis 17 because God included his children and their children's children. He said to Abraham walk with me and do what I will ask you. Please it is about Abraham. Issac was born to the Lord and God repeat his Covenant with him and not with the other children of Abraham.

There is the instructions to Abraham how to keep the covenant. Their sins were not counted against them in the Covenant of Cirumcision. This is why they did not have forgiveness of sins. It was a Covenant that required obedience to the Cirumcision. They were in the imputed righteousness of Abraham. At that time Abraham was in his imputed righteousness. And the Lord gave the same thing to his children. If not they couldn't be called his children. As Abraham was so they were.

This is not in any scripture. Esaiah never said that "we can reason with God to become clean. To believe in Jesus Christ we become clean because he is from God. Who died for the forgiveness of our sins. Our sins are forgiven as we are now in the New Covenant by believing in Jesus Christ that he died and pay the price for our sins.

It will help to sort out things if you read again Genesis 17th. Do not focus in what anyone else says. It is there.

I will consider that. But quoting the post did not make any comment and a lot of people who are reading this they would like to know your thoughts. Did Jesus Christ shed the blood of the New Covenant for the forgiveness of our sins in his blood after being tested and being punished with the lasses and died on the Cross. Did Jesus Christ said "tetelestai" and descended in the place of the dead and raised from the dead and ascended to Heaven to the Heavenly Father about 2000 years ago or before the foundations of the world? This question includes: choose Life or Death. If you say 2000 years ago you are in the Life of God in Jesus Christ. If you say it actually happened before the foundation of the world you have chosen "Death". As you deny that Jesus Christ came to earth about 2000 years ago born of the virgin Mary. John 1:9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. Was born from Mary about 2000 years ago in Bethlehem. He was born to die on the Cross for the forgiveness of our sins.

The Lamb of God was to be slain. Jesus Christ the Lamb of God died on the Cross about 2000 years ago. This is what Jesus was saying all along. That I must die. There is no anyother way "I must die". Then Jesus Christ said the time is now. Jesus did not say that he died before the foundation of the world. Only it was decided that there is no anyother way for the redemption of the world. That he had to die. No other way. This was the will of the Heavenly Father. To make a liar everyone who says that Jesus Christ did not die. Without the death of Jesus Christ we do not have the Redemption. Because the Redemption of sins was made with the blood of the dead Lamb all the time in the book of Leviticus.

Can you really prove that in the context we are discussing how the sins of the Israelites were forgiven under the Law of Moses.

@In1 we were talking about how the sins of the Israelites were forgiven and you brought Esaiah into the picture. Esaiah was an Israelite and lived under the jurisdiction of the Sinai Covenant under the law of Moses. How the sins of the Israelites during the Sinai Covenant were forgiven? Do you have any knowledge? Do you Know how? Can AL help you? Or who ever is your advisor.

You are kidding me. Esaiah will never say anything like that. Are you sure about that? And Revelation is not from the disciples teachings. Are you sure the disciples teach that?

There two parts in your post no1 and number 2. Are they in the bible?

Any one under the law of Moses during the Sinai Covenant and did not obey to do what the law required from him and tried to reason his way out to justify his disobedience DIED as an example to others. No way someone could disobey the Law and reason his way out. His due payment was to die. It was not done by obedience.

They did not have lambs that time. And they didn't not have people. No Romans. No Jews. No Judea. No Jerusalem. No law. No Abraham. No Mary and No Jesus and no you and me. No one else. Please why did you say that? When you know that the Lanb of God who was Jesus died 2.000 years ago and there were many witnesses to testify to that and his disciples witnessed his death on the Cross.

The story of Abraham and Issac is in Genesis 18. Have you nor read the story of Abraham in Genesis? That God made his promises to them when they did not believed. And he asked for their obedience. That God asked them for their obedience. God asked Abraham for his obedience in what He asked him. Abraham was told. God told him what He was doing or what he was about to do and asked Abraham for his obedience in what He was asking him to do.

@Luther Jesus Christ said: that Abraham knows my day and he rejoiced. Certainly that shows that Abraham knew of the day of when Jesus Christ will descend down to them to where they were and included unto himself to give them of his Eternal Life and heirs together with Jesus Christ of the Heavenly Inheritance. Abraham and John the Baptist and all God's people who were with him from the beginning of the world knew something the disciples of Jesus Christ and the other Jews did not understand that the only way for the Messiah to descend to them it was only for him to die first because anyone one of them had to die first. And they had John the Baptist who had the mission to go before the Lord and announced his coming. We may say and with confidence that the only people who eagerly were waiting for the time the Messiah of God Jesus Christ to die were Abraham and all God's people who were with him. Jesus said all the people God has just before he died God has given them to me in reference to all of the people of God who were with Abraham. JESUS CHRIST THE LIFE GIVING SPIRIT. THE LIFE AND the WAY TO HEAVEN. THE DOOR TO HEAVEN.

@Luther What about Abraham their Patriarch and His chosen children Isaac and Jacob and the twelve Patriarchs and the Nation of Israel before the Law was given. And we also have to consider the people of God from Adam to Noah and from Noah to Abraham. Now we cover everyone till the time of Jesus Christ. And the Cross of Jesus Christ. We need to look to their inheritance after they died. We know from scripture that the Jews believed that their inheritance after death it was with Abraham and they were set apart from the dead of the rest of the world. And we also know and no one can dispute that Abraham's inheritance after death was in the place of the dead but apart from the dead of the rest of the world because they continiun to be God's people after their death. The LORD CONTINUED TO BE THEIR GOD and the God of the dead had nothing to do with them. The Lord said to Abraham that you will die at a good old age (God was telling him that he will not die a violent death or by the hands of his enemies) The Lord also told him that he will be Gathered to his Ancestors. So we Know about the inheritance of the People of God and Abraham and his children after their death. At the time of their death till the death and the resurrection of Jesus Christ when God gave Jesus Christ the Heaven as his inheritance and the New inheritance for mankind was established in Jesus Christ.

This a good question for discussion. It's not only about Moses and the Sinai Covenant and the Priesthood and the Tabernacle of the Testimony where they began to be judged by the Law of Moses. And the Lord began to count their sins against them and put in place a way to forgive their sins by the yearly Atonement and the individual Atonement through out the year. The forgiveness of sins began with the giving of the Law of Moses and the book of Leviticus and their purification ceremonies.