CarolineS

This is good news. We should pray that many souls are converted.

CarolineS

No, I am not talking about the Mormans or JW's. Where did you get that impression?

In Christ,

CarolineS

The return of Christ is very near, even at the door. The world 'wonders after the beast' even now. "Myster Babylon' is here and it is not even recognized. The 'man of sin' is hailed as the leader of the 'christian world'. Some kind of delusion. Seems there are few 'very elect' who are really priests to the Lord our God.

God bless,

Dennis

I agree. The antichrist is not a single man, it is a system. The Greek definition of "antichrist" is of one who sets himself up "in the place of" Christ.

There are four Bible references to antichrist and one to antichrists. So that's where we should start.

John writes that many antichrists had already appeared in his day. He identifies them as coming from inside the church:

"Little children...as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us...they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us." 1 John 2:18-19

He also tells us that antichrist is anyone who denies the Father and the Son--the ones who try to deceive us with false Christian doctrines:

"Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you" 1 John 2:22,26

The antichrist spirit was already at work in the early Christian Church--deceiving people about the nature of Christ, denying that He came in the flesh:

"...Every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world" 1 John 4:3

"For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist" 2 John 1"7

So what does scripture tell us about the antichrist?

1. There were many antichrists in John's day

2. These antichrist came from within the church, so they appeared to be Christians

3. The antichrists taught deceiving doctrines that somehow denied the sovereignty of the Father and the Son

4. The antichrists deny that Christ was incarnated in man's flesh nature

We should also look at Thessalonians.

"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God" 2 Thess 2:3-4

Paul tells us that Christ does not return until after the man of sin is revealed. First, there is a falling away from the truth, an apostasy. To exalt the man of sin above God, the false system of worship is set up--and revealed. Then Christ returns.

The antichrist or man of sin is a system, not one single person. The little horn power, the man of sin, the antichrist and the beast all refer to a system that will be in place in the last days.

In Christ

CarolineS

Soul sleep is correct.

This is what happens when people build on false doctrine. First of all, according to God's Word, souls do die!

We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal. Only God is immortal. The concept of an undying, immmortal soul goes against the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.

<Ezekiel 18:20>

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die."

People do not go to either heaven or hell at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day.

<John 5:28,29>

"All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth."

<Acts 2:29,34>

"David..is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us into this day." "For David is not ascended into the heavens."

<Job 17:13>

"If I wait, the grave is mine house."

<Job 14:12>

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep."

I think we need to look at the big picture. Why would Satan want people to believe that we are immortal?

Why would he want us to think we continue living in a spirit form immediately after we die physically?

In Christ,

CarolineS

Greetings,

I am surprised no one has heard of the Ten Commandments Commission and the first annual Ten Commandments Sunday taking place on May 7, 2006 in Washington, DC.

Our church is offering a free book about the Ten Commandments to anyone who is interested. The books are being ordered at church, we only have to pay for the shipping.

The book is called: The Antichrist Agenda Ten Commandments Twice Removed.

If anyone is interested in the book, just PM me and I will send you a copy.

In Christ,

CarolineS

Good for Madonna. I hope she is leaving soon. I wonder if she could take some of her Hollywood friends with her?

CarolineS

Greetings,

I wanted to draw attention to this topic because I am concerned as to where this movement is going.

We now have a group of Christians who have started a grass roots movement to restore the Ten Commandments to their rightful place in society. This group is inviting all Christians to join in a national and global movement to restore the word of God to our nation.

Christians are encouraged to join together in unity with one voice to support the bedrock principles that made our country great--the Ten Commandments.

Some of the supportors listed on their site are:

Chuck Colson

James Dobson

Rev. Jerry Falwell

Rev. Pat Robertson

Rabbi Yehuda David Greenberg

Jay Sekulow

(and these are just a few I wrote down)

The site states, "we are committed to bring the Word of God back to our nation."

Don't you see how easily this could lead to some type of legislation or laws regarding the Ten Commandments? This could lead to some type of Sunday law. I have heard ministers state that we need to return to the law of God to get our nation back on track. Some have even suggested that Sunday should be a day of rest or a family day. What does this movement mean to those of us who keep the Sabbath?

What will it mean in the future?

I think we need to stay informed of this Ten Commandments group. They have good and sincere intentions, but I think they could take us somewhere I don't want to go.

In Christ,

CarolineS

Hi Cats,

Jesus used many symbols in His parables. I don't know if we have to know Hebrew traditions to understand them or to hear what He is saying. I think He gave the Bible to all people; I think He wants everyone to understand it no matter what their background is.

The parable of the ten virgins is excellent. It has alot of truth for all people today, maybe even more so at this time in earth's closing history.

The story is talking about the church that shall live just before His second coming. The two classes of watchers represent the two classes who profess to be waiting for their Lord. The are called virgins because they profess a pure faith. The lamps represent the word of God.

All ten virgins went out to meet the bridegroom. All had lamps and vessels for oil. For a time there was no difference between them that could be seen. So will it be with the church that exists just before Christ's second coming. All (the church) have a knowledge of the Scriptures. All have heard the message of Christ's near approach, and await His appearing.

As in the parable and also now, a time of waiting occurs. Faith is tried. When the cry is heard, Behold the Bridegoom cometh, go ye out to meet Him, many are not ready. They have no oil in their vessels with their lamps. The are destitute of the Holy Spirit.

Without the Holy Spirit a knowledge of Scripture is useless. Without the light of the Holy Spirit, one cannot distinguish truth from error. The foolish virgins represent those with a superficial relationship with Christ. They do not have a true relationship with Chirst, they don't know Him.

The ten virgins are all watching for the Bridegroom. All claim to be Christians. All have a call, a name, a lamp, and all profess to be doing God's service. But five are unready. Five will be found outside the banquet hall.

The wise virgins had oil in their vessels with their lamps. They were able to shed light into the dark night.

We, as followers of Christ, are to shed light in the the darkness of the world. Through the Holy Spirit, God's word is a light as it becomes a transforming power in the life of the receiver. By implanting in their hearts the principles of His word, the Holy Spirit develops in men the attributes of God. The light of His glory is to shine forth in His followers.

The coming of the bridegoom was at midnight, the darkest hour. So the coming of Christ will take place in the darkest period of this earth's history. The days of Noah and Lot give us a picture of the condition of the world just before the coming of the Son of man. Apostasy will develop into darkness deep as midnight.

Now more than any other time we need to be in The Word. We need to be ready. God's glory is to shine forth through His church. So it is good, Cats, that you are studying and seeking deeper understanding. It is something we should all be doing.

In Christ,

CarolineS

I was just reading some of the information posted at their web site.

Here is a sentence from a page on the Ten Commandment Commission:

"By making our voices heard in support of the Ten Commandments, we believe we will make a major societal impact by restoring God's eternal moral code to the heart of our nation."

They also ask people who value traditional moral values to celebrate Ten Commandment Sunday by hosting local community events in support of the Ten Commandments.

What exactly do they mean by "restoring God's eternal moral code to the heart of our nation"?

Why is the event being held on a Sunday? Something is wrong with this. Is the entire church asleep?

In Christ,

CarolineS

Greetings,

I was wondering if anyone has heard of this website:

www.tencommandmentsday.com

Also, what is the Ten Commaandment Commission? It looks like they are gathering in Washington, DC on May 7th to bring attention to the Ten Commandments and their importance. Has anyone discussed this in their churches? I heard about it on TV. I am wondering if it will receive more media attention in the future.

I put this topic under prophey because I feel the Ten Commandments will be a dividing issue in the last days.

In Christ,

CarolineS

But who do you think you are to openly defy what the Bible says about the eternal suffering of the lost? If God says they will be conscious in the Lake of Fire for all eternity, who are you to call him a liar? It isn't about what you think or I think or anyone thinks, it's about what the Bible says. God sends people to eternal suffering because they rejected Jesus, not because he hates them or enjoys suffering. They cannot enter heaven, God's 'rest', because they would not trust Jesus in this life. An eternity of suffering is the result of that, not some payment for sin. Why can't you see this? Why do you keep trying to undermine the gospel and tell people that it really doesn't matter if they get saved or not, since they'll just disappear? You will give people a false sense of security and they will be able to point at you and say "There's the reason I'm in suffering! I wasn't told the truth!" If you're comfortable with that, then you have my pity.

Take this however you want, but I've said all I can to you. Goodbye.

2thepoint,

I not the one calling God a liar. Let's take alook at that God said to Adam and Eve and compare it to what Satan said to Eve.

<Genesis 2:17>

"...but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

God told Adam and Eve they would die. They would die a physical death. They would not have access to the tree of life. That is why an angel with a flaming sword was placed at the entrance of the garden to guard the tree of life. Why did Adam and Eve need access to the tree of life? Because they were mortal beings, formed from the dust, and to dust they would return.

<Genesis 3:22,23>

"Then the Lord God said, 'Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever'--therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken."

We die a physical death. At that time our spirit leaves our body and returns to God. Our spirit is the breath of life.

<Genesis 2:7>

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being (soul).

So it takes a body and the spirit together to make a living soul. A soul is a person. When we die, our body cannot exist without the breath of life (the spirit), so we are no longer a living soul. Our body goes back to the dust and our spirit returns to God, who gave it. We no longer exist.

<Ezekiel 18:20>

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die."

<Ezekiel 33:11>

...turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?"

<Romans 6:23>

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

God loved us so much he didn't leave us in our sin and disobedience to die. He sent us His only son. Jesus died for us. Jesus died on the cross and went into the grave for us. Then he conquered death and arose out of the grave. He was the perfect sacrifice so God the Father called Him forth from the grave. Now those that believe in Jesus and accept Him as their Lord and Savior are also called forth to eternal life.

<Romans 8:11>

"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."

What did Satan say to Eve?

<Genesis 3:4>

"Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die."

Either God is telling us the truth or Satan is. One of them is lying. We either die or we don't. I chose to believe God over Satan. I believe we die. We are not immortal. Eternal life is a gift given to us through the sacrifice and death of Jesus. He died for us so we never have to. That is why we can say, Oh death where is thy sting?

Why are you telling people they are eternal and will live forever? Why do they need a savior then?

In Christ,

CarolineS

Purgatory is a belief that individuals not good enough to be worthy of heaven but not evil enough to deserve hell, suffer in an intermediary state until their sins are purged.

This concept is based on the false understanding of the immortality of the soul (see many threads on this topic for further discussion) as well as how individuals are saved. It is not scriptural.

It also teaches a false belief that there is a second chance to be saved after death. There is not a second chance. "Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." (2Cor. 6:2)

In Christ,

CarolineS

2thepoint,

Let's look at these verses a little closer:

<Matthew 25:46>

"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The punishment will be everlasting. Note the text does not say "everlasting punishing." It is a single punishment whose effect lasts forever.

<Mark 9:48>

"...where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched."

The fire which cannot be quenched is one which no human hands can put out. It utterly, totally consumes. The fire cannot be quenched or put out until it completes its work of totally eradicating sin from the universe.

Sinners will ultimately be burned up or turned to ashes. See Malachi 4:1-3

The idea of an eternally burning hell would make God a cosmic monster, delighting in destroying His creatures. A loving God must blot sin out of the universe or it will destroy the entire planet. It must be cut out of existence. Do you really think a just and loving God is going to burn people for billions and bilions and billions of years due to one short life of sin? If you believe that, you are not worshipping the same God as me.

In Christ,

CarolineS

"The wages of sin is death." What kind of death? Physical. Look at Genesis, where sin entered the world, and death through sin. Man was made mortal because of sin. This is the FIRST death. The SECOND death is eternal separation from God. It is this SECOND death that is caused by lack of faith in Jesus.

Please show scripture that states the second death is eternal separation from God.

My Bible says that the soul that sins shall die, it shall be destroyed, it shall perish.

<Ezekiel 18:20>

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die."

<Matthew 10:28>

"Rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

<John 3:16>

"God...gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

I see eternal life as a gift for believers only. The wicked are destroyed. They are not given immortality.

I think part of the problem stems from the doctrine of the immortal soul. There is no such thing. We all die physically. The believers are rasied to eternal life. The wicked to punishment and destruction. I hope this helps you.

In Christ,

CarolineS

Smalcald,

Praise God for a very honest and sincere question. I see that you really want to serve and please God, and I beileve the Spirit has really already shown you the answer to the question.

Many true things have been said here, but sometimes the understanding needs to be clarified. The Ten Commandments were given to identify sin, or transgression against God. They were placed inside the Ark of the Covenant over which the presence of God dwelt. This should tell you something about how God regards them. Also in the Ark were Aaron's rod that budded and the golden pot of manna that was miraculously preserved. From the mercy seat God forgave the sins of the people when they confessed them and killed the lamb representing Jesus.

Heb 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein [was] the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant (Ten Commandments);

9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

What was in the Ark was the essence of God's kingdom. The 'Tables of Testimony' represented God's justice or His definition of sin. Aaron's rod that budded shows the love God who gives life to those who are 'dead in tresspasses and sin. The Manna is representative of Jesus 'who is the bread of life' come down from heaven and who dwells in the believer through faith. From the 'mercy' seat above the Ark God forgave the transgression of His law when repentant sinners confessed their sins and killed the lamb, symbolic that their sins had been transfered to Jesus and He would die for those sins.

As long as the world remains, the Ten Commandments remain inorder to identify sin. How else could on know they were a sinner and repent if they had no way of knowing what sin is. In order to be forgiven one must know what sin is so he can confess it and be forgiven. If he doesn't know, then he can't confess. If he can't confess, he cannot be forgiven. Beyond this he is to give up sin and come into obedience.

The Ten Commandments were given by Jesus who is the WORD OF GOD, who is God. Anything done by God is done by all three persons of the Godhead. Jesus was above the mercy seat along with God the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Ten Commandments are the Commandments of Jesus just as all His words on earth were His commands.

One has said that God gave the commandments knowing that we couldn't keep them. True, he knew we couldn't keep then in our carnal nature. This is the reason that He gives us His Holy Spirit, to enable us to keep them. You see in the 'New Covenant', the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in the heart of the believer and as the Scriptures say, 'He writes the law of God in the heart' or gives the believer a love for His law.

Here is God's definition of the New Covenant, this is Salvation by grace through faith:

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put MY LAWS into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

8:11

And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

You see the New Covenant does not do away with the law, it just changes where the Law is written. In the old Covenant the law was written on stone, in the New Covenant the law is written in the believers heart so that he will love the Law of God.

God bless,

Dennis

Amen. I couldn't have said it better myself.

In Christ,

CarolineS

Death means death. God says what He means and means what He says. Yes death is eternal separation from God. When God destroys, He destroys. The teaching of 'everlasting torment' originated in Babylon. They taught that 'departed souls' went to the 'underworld'. Most Paganism stems from Babylon and has never taught anihilation, but some form of eternal punishment. This idea was further developed by Greece and perfected by Rome.

Yet there is 'good news' for those of you who relish the idea of 'eternal torture'. The death of the wicked does take place in the 'lake of fire' and there is a period of torment proportional to the sin of the individual. This time of torment is still to come in the future, at the Great White Throne Judgment. The demons who know Scripture said to Jesus:

Mt 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.

8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

So we see that there is a time of torment. Now Jude tells us that Sodom and Gomorrha suffered the vengence of eternal fire.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Now lets see what God says and not man. Here Sodom and Gomorrha suffered this vengence of eternal fire as an example of the Judgment of God. Where did this take place? On the earth. Where did the eternal fire come from? God. How lond did this eternal fire burn? Until the cities and all in them were anihilated. Is this eternal fire still burning today? No. Is this eternal fire burning today? No. When does this eternal fire come? On Judgment day. This is the word of God and not some man invented fable.

How can one teach that 'God is love' and at the same time teach that He 'tortures all eternally' without regard to the gravity and amount of their sin. Even the Catholic church when they 'christianized' this Pagan teaching, seeing its inherent unfairness and barbarity had to temper it with the teaching of 'Purgatory', or a 'second chance' for those who weren't too bad.

Here we see that God and even the devils understand that the 'wages of sin are death'.

God bless,

Dennis

Hi Dennis,

Glad to see you are back! I believe it has been awhile since I have seen you around.

Nice post, by the way. Mind if I add some scripture?

<Psalm 37:10,20>

"For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be."

"But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the Lord, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away."

Scripture is very clear. The wicked shall be as if they never were. God's purpose is that hell will destroy the devil and all sin and sinners and make the world safe for eternity. One sinner, if left on this planet, would be a deadly virus forever threatening the universe. It is God's plan to isolate sin and blot it out of existence for all time.

An eternal hell of torment would perpetuate sin and make its eradication impossible. Such a horrible theory is slander against the holy name of a loving God. The devil delights to see our loving Creator pictured as such a monstrous tyrant, and he alone can benefit from such teachings.

No one will be in heaven because he feared hell. People are saved because they love and obey Christ.

In Christ,

CarolineS

In using the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus to try to prove anything about hell and the eventuality of those who go down into death one must remember first of all that it is a

In using the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus to try to prove anything about hell and the eventuality of those who go down into death one must remember first of all that it is a

When Jesus spoke of "their worm dying not" He was quoting Isaiah 66:24. The word used for "worm" actually denoted a particular kind of worm, called a scarlet worm.

1) worm, scarlet stuff, crimson

a) worm - the female 'coccus ilicis'

b) scarlet stuff, crimson, scarlet

1) the dye made from the dried body of the female of the worm "coccus ilicis"

2) worm, maggot

a) worm, grub

b) the worm "coccus ilicis"

++++

When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might "bring many sons unto glory" ("#Heb 2:10")! He died for us, that we might live through him!

What is being spoken of here is implicit in the imagery Jesus used. He used something His audience would be particularly conversant with, and they would recognize that He was thus claiming to be the Messiah, One who gives life by giving His life.

Clio

Clio,

Amazing! That is so cool. I have never heard that before. Thanks for sharing!

In Christ,

CarolineW

oops, wrong key.

It's CarolineS

When Jesus spoke of "their worm dying not" He was quoting Isaiah 66:24. The word used for "worm" actually denoted a particular kind of worm, called a scarlet worm.

1) worm, scarlet stuff, crimson

a) worm - the female 'coccus ilicis'

b) scarlet stuff, crimson, scarlet

1) the dye made from the dried body of the female of the worm "coccus ilicis"

2) worm, maggot

a) worm, grub

b) the worm "coccus ilicis"

++++

When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might "bring many sons unto glory" ("#Heb 2:10")! He died for us, that we might live through him!

What is being spoken of here is implicit in the imagery Jesus used. He used something His audience would be particularly conversant with, and they would recognize that He was thus claiming to be the Messiah, One who gives life by giving His life.

Clio

Clio,

Amazing! That is so cool. I have never heard that before. Thanks for sharing!

In Christ,

CarolineW

Smalcald,

You will find that this topic has been discussed many times here. No one can agree that the Ten Commandments are eternal and will stand until Christ returns.

We need God's eternal law to show us what sin is. His law is like a mirror that we look at and see how filthy we are. So the law points us to the need for a savior. The only way to be clean again is through the blood of Jesus. The law points us to the cross.

When we come to Jesus and truely repent and accept Him as Lord of our life, we experience His mercy and grace. We are so grateful and full of love for Christ that we want to obey Him to show our love for Him. We do this by keeping His Commandments. Love, faith and grace lead to obedience.

Many say we are not under the law, we are under grace. We are saved by grace. Then Jesus writes His law in our mind and heart. Grace is God's mercy and power that lead us to obey His laws. If we do away with the law, we do away with sin. If you do away with sin, you don't need a savior.

Adam and Eve lost the garden due to disobedience. Disobedience is a form of rebellion. When we do not obey God's Law, we are rebelling against God. And I don't think rebellion and sin are allowed in heaven.

In Christ,

CarolineS

Grace to you,

Carloine S;

People do not go to heaven or hell at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day.

"All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth." John 5:28,29

"David...is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:29,34.

"If I wait, the grave is mine house." Job 17:13.

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:12

The dead will sleep until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind.

<Matthew 25:46>

"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The word used in the verse is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

I believe you just made two statements that are contradictory? How do you jibe this with your soul sleep belief?

So there is a great General Ressurection, right?

Then the dead sleep on in punishment forever? Or are annihilated?

The only way to bring this around is to say that there is one punishment at the General Ressurection of the dead that you postulate. That this punishment is annihilation not soul sleep. Not sleeping on forever. However and excuse me now cause now my brain begins to hurt.

Peace,

Dave

Dave,

I do not see where I made a contradictory statement. How did this conversation go from eternal punishment to the resurrection? I didn't realize I brought up the topic of the resurrection. But, since you asked....

Because Adam and Eve did not obey God's command in the Garden and ate of the Tree of Good and Evil, sin entered the world. For this reason, mankind was cursed and also given a promise of a redeemer.

<Genesis 2:17>

"...but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Did you catch that wording? "you shall surely die." So we all die and return to dust. This is the first death. It happens to all of us, good or evil.

We rest in the grave until Jesus returns. "All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth." John 5:28 Scripture tells us that Jesus said, My sheep hear my voice and follow me. So who will arise out of the grave at the first resurrection? All believers in Christ, those that kept His commandments.

Christ will return and every eye shall see Him. Believers that are alive are caught up in the air with Him. Those that are believers, who have died, will arise out of the grave. Their body and soul are reunited. Their sleep is over! We recieve our rewards that Christ brings with Him!

The unbeliever who has died stays in the grave. He doesn't know the sheperd's voice. He doesn't hear him calling. He stays in his grave. The unbelieving who are alive at Christ's return are destroyed by the brightness of His coming.

Jesus meet us in the air. We live and reign with Him in Heaven (after all He did go to prepare a place for us).

After 1,000 years, Christ and the saints return. He places His feet on the Mt. of Olives. The Holy City is set down. THEN, the unbelivers are resurrected. This is the second resurrection. They are judged and sentenced according to their sins.

<Revelation 21:8>

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Jesus came to save us from our sins. What are the wages of sin? DEATH. So Jesus came to save us from death. We will never taste death. He took our sins and our death upon Himself. Believers are given the gift

of eternal life. We, as believers, will never undergo the second death.

<Matthew 10:28>

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

This is why we can say: Oh death, where is thy sting? If we have Jesus, we have life!

In Christ,

CarolineS

2thepoint,

Please comment on these verses:

"The wages of sin is death..." Romans 6:23

"Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." James 1:15

"God.. gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish,...John 3:16

"Rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthes 10:28

And also this verse:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20

So what does "death, perish, destroy, die" mean in the above? Is there some meaning I am missing?

Also please explain your understanding of the first death and the second death.

In Christ,

CarolineS

I, too, would like to know if the church is growing in Russia. Is there any certain denomination that is growing faster then others? Are the people there open to the gospel?

Is it true there is a high rate of alcohol abuse there? Also, are there many jobs available for people who want to work? I guess I am asking about the economy, is it doing very well?

In Christ,

CarolineS

Matthew 25:46

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment...

Mark 9:43-44

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Luke 16:28

...send him (Lazarus) to my father's house: For I (the rich man) have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Revelation 20:10, 15

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

And whomsoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

In Christ,

Eric

Hi Copper Scroll,

You asked me to comment on the scripture in post #9. I have quoted them above.

<Matthew 25:46>

"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The word used in the verse is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting.

<Mark 9:43-44>

"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.'"

Obviously, Jesus does not want us to literally maim ourselves. He is just expressing how offensive our sin is and we should do all we can to remove it or cut it out of our life.

Unquenchable fire is fire that cannot be put out, but which goes out when it has turned everything to ashes. Jeremiah 17:27 says Jerusalem was to be destroyed with unquenchable fire, and in 2 Chronicles 36:19-21 the Bible says this fire burned the city "to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah" and left it desolate. Yet we know this fire went out, because Jerusalem is not burning today.

<Luke 16:28>

"..for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.'

Ok. You are referring to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. I hope you can agree that this is a parable and not to be taken literally. We know it is a parable because of several facts. 1) Abraham's bosom is not heaven. 2) People in hell can't talk to those in heaven. 3) The dead are in their graves. The rich man was in bodily form with eyes, a tongue, etc., yet we know that the body does not go to hell at death. It is very obvious that the body remains in the grave, as the Bible says. 4) Men are rewarded at Christ's second coming, not at death. 5) The lost are punished in hell at the end of the world, not when they die.

The point of the story is found in verse 31. "But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.'"

<Revelation 20:10,15>

"The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

"And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

The term " for ever," as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. In Jonah 2:6, "for ever" means "three days and nights." (see also Jonah 1:17.) In Deuteronomy 23:3, this means "10 generations." In the case of man, this means "as long as he lives" or "until death." (See 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.)

So the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will vary according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out.

The teaching of eternal torment has done more to drive people away from God than any other invention of the devil. It is slander upon the loving character of a tender, gracious heavenly Father and has done untold harm to the Christian cause.

In Christ,

CarolineS