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JAG**

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  1. JAG**
    Agreed. There are many of them. Islam is one. There are many others. eg Jainism You quoted my entire Opening Post and them remarked: "Hmmm. Is there a religion today that denies "the Father AND the SON?" I know there is."___iamlamad /just curious , , , Question: Do you have a Bible verse that connects John's antichrists mentioned below , , , 1 John 2:18 1 John 2:22 1 John 4:3 2 John 7 . . . with any of these down there? ■ Daniel 7 ■ 2 Thess 2 ■ Revelation 13 ■ the book of Revelation ■ Ezekiel ■ the "false prophet" ■ the "harlot" ■ the "beast" ■ the "little horn" ■ the "man of sin" {the "man of lawlessness" -- in 2 Thess 2} The Bible mentions antichrist in ONLY these 4 instances. 1 John 2:18 1 John 2:22 1 John 4:3 2 John 7 So we MUST make a clear and solid CONNECTION between John's antichrists and other parts of the Bible --- otherwise we have to give up the name "antichrist" and just issue a proclamation that the imagined future "evil man" is called whatever anyone wants to call him --- just don't call him THE "antichrist" or antichrist. Why did I post all the above to you? Because you quoted my entire Opening Post which is all about what I just posted to you.
  2. JAG**
    John expands his antichrists from being one individual to being a multitude ,"many antichrists", and puts them in the time of the 1st century some 2000 years ago. 1 John 2:18-19 "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." Note the particulars in 1 John 2:18-19 "this is the last hour" -- a reference to the time of the 1st Century some 2000 years ago "the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come" -- not one "The antichrist" but "many antichrists" "many antichrists" --- so John's antichrists were plural, many antichrists, and not just one "even now" -- John's antichrists lived in the time of the 1st century some 2000 years ago "have come" -- John's antichrists lived in the time of the 1st century some 2000 years ago "they went out from us" -- John's antichrists lived in the 1st Century some 2000 years ago "they would have remained with us" -- John's antichrists lived in the 1st century, in the time John lived, some 2000 years ago _____________ Questions: {1} When did John's antichrists come? Answer "even now" in the time of the 1st century some 2000 years ago {2} Again when did John's antichrists come? Answer: they "have come" in the time of the 1st century some 2000 years ago {3} What was the number of John's antichrist? Answer: "many antichrists" plural and not just one {4} What did John's antichrist do? Answer: "they went out from us" -- ie they went out from John and the apostles some 2000 years ago Conclusion: John's antichrists were 1st century Christian apostates.
  3. JAG**
    Douggg, You have no Bible-Verse arguments that can connect John's antichrists with any other parts of the Bible, so you then seek to demonize the message with accusations of "false doctrine teaching " ---and in so doing you also demonize me because it is a sin to be a proclaimer of "false doctrine teaching" I write the following just for the record , , , , , , and to you Douggg, I am an orthodox Bible believing born again Christian. My wife and I attend a Bible believing Baptist-type Christian church along with our grown children and our 6 grandchildren. I believe the following with all my mind, heart, and soul: I believe in the Holy Trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I believe in the Deity of the Lord Jesus. That He is fully God. (John 1: 1-5) I believe in the Virgin Birth of the Lord Jesus. I believe in the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus. I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and free from all error. (2 Timothy 3:14-17) I believe in the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus. I believe in a coming Judgment. I believe that salvation is by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus' death on the Cross where He died to pay for our sins. Ephesians 2:8 I believe in John 3:16 with all my heart. I believe in all the orthodox doctrinal Protestant Creeds. That is, I am a Bible believing Protestant in my faith and practice. I am an orthodox Bible believing Postmillennialist. I do NOT hold to a single weird or strange or unusual belief. Postmillennialism is a mainstream orthodox Bible believing view of the future of the human race and of the future of the Christian Church. I can easily post a list of the names of dozens of Christian Postmillennial scholars who believe the Bible is the word of God and 100% true --- but who DISAGREE with Premillennialists on what the Holy Scriptures teach with regard to the end time passages. There is nothing unorthodox about Postmillennialism or Premillennialism or Amillennialism or Dispensationalism. There are large segments within Bible Believing Christendom that holds different views of the future of the human race and the future of the Christian Church. There are 4 of them. All 4 are fully orthodox and fully Christian. (1) Postmillennialism (2) Premillennialism (3) Amillennialism (4) Dispensationalism _____________________ May the Lord bless and keep us. May the Lord make His face to shine upon us. May the Lord be gracious unto us. May the Lord turn His face toward us. May the Lord give us His protection and His peace. (Based upon Numbers 6:24-27) JAG Proposition: There Is No Bible-Verse Argument For A Future Antichrist.
  4. JAG**
    Read that quote at the bottom to see what the fictional imagined "THE antichrist notion" has produced in the world today--- wild far-fetched un-Biblical personal speculations --- now for the answer to your question. ____________ I have answered that question several times and will answer it again. There is no such thing as some future evil world ruler that is to come that will be called THE antichrist --the claim that there is to be some future THE antichrist is pure personal assumption and pure personal interpretative speculation --- because there is no Bible-verse connection between John's antichrists and these parts of the Bible , , , ■ Daniel 7 ■ 2 Thess 2 ■ Revelation 13 ■ the book of Revelation ■ Ezekiel ■ the "false prophet" ■ the "harlot" ■ the "beast" ■ the "little horn" ■ the "man of sin" {the "man of lawlessness" -- in 2 Thess 2} The Bible mentions antichrist in ONLY these 4 instances. So you MUST make a clear and solid CONNECTION to John's antichrists ---otherwise give up the name "antichrist" and just issue a proclamation that your imagined future "evil man" is called whatever you want to call him --- just don't call him THE "antichrist" or antichrist. 1 John 2:18 1 John 2:22 1 John 4:3 2 John 7 _____________ There were many antichrists {plural} in John's day and also many antichrists here in our day. ____________ Here below is a sample of what the fictional "The antichrist doctrine" has produced in the world today --- wild far-fetched un-Biblical personal assumptions and personal speculations without so much as one Bible-Verse to connect John's antichrists with any other parts of the Bible. "11. Resurrected Dead? - "Seemed to have a mortal wound" : Some Bible expositors believe this mortal wound refers to the pagan Roman Empire, which died in the past but will be revived in the end times. Others say a historical character of the past, such as Nero, Judas Iscariot, Mussolini, Hitler, or Stalin, will come back to life and fulfill the role of the antichrist in the end times. Others say the antichrist will actually be killed and then resurrected. Still others say that perhaps the antichrist will be severely wounded, and Satan will supernaturally heal this wound. Perhaps he will simply appear to be killed, though he really is not, and through satanic trickery will appear to be resurrected." https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/the-rise-of-the-antichrist.html
  5. JAG**
    The antichrists mentioned in John's epistles were in John NEAR FUTURE and NOT in John's FAR OFF FUTURE. Pure speculation about John's "future" yet to come antichrist is NOT a COMPELLING argument because the Biblical text nowhere in John's epistles gives any indication that John was saying that the antichrist was in John's FAR OFF FUTURE. That means that John's antichrist appeared in John's NEAR FUTURE and in fact John's epistles clearly support the NEAR FUTURE interpretation. Evidence to support the NEAR FUTURE interpretation is the clear statements in John's epistles that certainly and COMPELLINGLY identify John's antichrists as JOHN'S PRESENT DAY Christian apostates. John clearly said the following about them, and about his present time of the first century: (1) "this is the last hour" (written over 2000 years ago and clearly not a reference to the year 2020) "this is the last hour" is a clear reference to the time when John wrote that, namely the first century. (2) "even NOW many antichrists have come." (John's antichrist were there in the first century) (3) "they went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us, but their going showed that none of them belonged to us" In (3) up there John is clearly speaking about his time of the first century and clearly does NOT have reference to some future time period. So? So the Bible is CLEAR that John's antichrists were first century Christian apostates.
  6. JAG**
    If you want to read some strange far-fetched assumptions and speculations of mere men regarding the fictional character of a future THE antichrist, here is one source: Start quote. https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/the-rise-of-the-antichrist.html 4. Roman Revival - Comparing this text with Daniel 7:16-24 we conclude that the antichrist will rise up from ten kingdoms that will constitute a revived Roman Empire, the final form of Gentile world power before Christ returns. ________________________ 11. Resurrected Dead? - "Seemed to have a mortal wound" (13:3): Some Bible expositors believe this mortal wound refers to the pagan Roman Empire, which died in the past but will be revived in the end times. Others say a historical character of the past, such as Nero, Judas Iscariot, Mussolini, Hitler, or Stalin, will come back to life and fulfill the role of the antichrist in the end times. Others say the antichrist will actually be killed and then resurrected. Still others say that perhaps the antichrist will be severely wounded, and Satan will supernaturally heal this wound. Perhaps he will simply appear to be killed, though he really is not, and through satanic trickery will appear to be resurrected. __________________________ 12. World-Wide Attention - "The whole earth marveled as they followed the beast" (13:3): This event will no doubt make headlines around the world. Internet videos of the event will go viral. Television reports of the event will be shown around the clock. _________________________ 1. The genius of the antichrist. Scripture reveals that the antichrist will be a genius in intellect (Daniel 8:23), commerce (Daniel 11:43; Revelation 13:16-17), war (Revelation 6:2; Revelation 13:2), speech (Daniel 11:36), and politics (Revelation 17:11-12). Source: https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/the-rise-of-the-antichrist.html End quote. ____________________ JAG Writes: The above is just some of the wild assumptions and speculations of mere men regarding the fictional THE antichrist that they predict will come in the future. The article at the link had 13 major points and did NOT one time even attempt to produce a single Bible-Verse that made the connection to any of John's antichrists but totally IGNORED that and proceeded to issue one mere-human-proclamation after another incorrectly assuming that there was a connection between John's antichrists and , , , , ■ Daniel 7 ■ 2 Thess 2 ■ Revelation 13 ■ the book of Revelation ■ Ezekiel ■ the "false prophet" ■ the "harlot" ■ the "beast" ■ the "little horn" ■ the "man of sin" {the "man of lawlessness" -- in 2 Thess 2} _________________ In 1988 Ian Paisley, Evangelical minister and founder of the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster, made headlines in an infamous manner by accusing Pope John Paul II as the Antichrist during one of the pope's speeches before the European Parliament, which at the time Paisley was member of. His accusation, and the reactions of both Pope John Paul II and other members of the European Parliament, was recorded on video.[78][79] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antichrist#Old_Believers
  7. JAG**
    Dr. Benjamin B. Warfield, one of Christendom's most accomplished and distinguished theologians, provided 3 helpful insights on John's antichrists. {1} John takes his antichrists out of the future and puts them into the present time of the 1st Century. 1 John 2:18 1 John 2:22 1 John 4:3 2 John 7 1 John 2:22-23 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 2 John 7 "I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist 1 John 2:18 and 1 John 4:1-6 and 1 John 2:22-23 and 2 John 7 describes a 1st Century heretical movement, and does NOT predict any future antichrist. _______________________ {2} John expands his antichrists from being one individual to being a multitude {"many antichrists"} 1 John 2:18-19 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us _______________________ {3} John reduces his antichrists from being only antichrists persons to being a heresy, that is to say, a heretical movement of the 1st Century 1 John 4:1-6 "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood." Conclusion: John's antichrists were 1st Century Christian apostates. Proposition: There Is No Bible-Verse Argument For A Future Antichrist
  8. JAG**
    1 John 2:18-19 "Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."___1 John 2:18-19 _________ Note the particulars in 1 John 2:18-19 (1) "this is the last hour" That compellingly refers to the time of the first century. It CANNOT refer to the year 2020. That would be an absurd interpretation. It CANNOT refer to any future time. Just as it could not refer to the year 950 A.D. Or to the year 1200 A.D. Or to the year 1880 A.D. Or to the year 2018 A.D. It MUST refer ONLY to the time it was written, namely the first century. (2) "even NOW many antichrists have come" The "NOW" refers to the time of the first century. It CANNOT refer to the year 2020. That would be an absurd interpretation. It CANNOT refer to any future time. Just as it could not refer to the year 450 A.D. Or to the year 1100 A.D. Or to the year 1680 A.D. Or to the year 1760 A.D. It MUST refer ONLY to the time it was written, namely the first century. (3) "MANY antichrists have come." "Many is plural. There were many antichrists that had ALREADY come in the time of the first century. It CANNOT refer to any future time. It CANNOT refer to the year 2020. That would be an absurd interpretation. Just as it could not refer to the year 450 A.D. Or to the year 1000 A.D. Or to the year 1480 A.D. Or to the year 1260 A.D. It MUST refer ONLY to the time it was written, namely the first century. (4) "They went out from us. but they did not belong to us" This compellingly is a reference to the first century, when John wrote 1 John. It CANNOT refer to any future time. It CANNOT refer to the year 2020. That would be an absurd interpretation. Just as it could not refer to the year 450 A.D. Or to the year 850 A.D. Or to the year 1380 A.D. Or to the year 1860 A.D. It MUST refer ONLY to the time it was written, namely the first century. JAG Conclusion: John's antichrists were 1st Century Christian apostates.
  9. JAG**
    Douggg, You have no Bible-Verse arguments that can connect John's antichrists with any other parts of the Bible. so you then seek to demonize the message with accusations of "holding a false doctrine teaching"---and in so doing you also demonize me because it is a sin to hold and proclaim "a false doctrine teaching." _______________________ Douggg, I write the following to you. I am an orthodox Bible believing born again Christian. My wife and I attend a Bible believing Baptist-type Christian church along with our grown children and our 6 grandchildren. I believe the following with all my mind, heart, and soul: I believe in the Holy Trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I believe in the Deity of the Lord Jesus. That He is fully God. (John 1: 1-5) I believe in the Virgin Birth of the Lord Jesus. I believe in the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus. I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and free from all error. (2 Timothy 3:14-17) I believe in the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus. I believe in a coming Judgment. I believe that salvation is by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus' death on the Cross where He died to pay for our sins. Ephesians 2:8 I believe in John 3:16 with all my heart. I believe in all the orthodox doctrinal Protestant Creeds. That is, I am a Bible believing Protestant in my faith and practice. I am an orthodox Bible believing Postmillennialist. I do NOT hold to a single weird or strange or unusual belief. Postmillennialism is a mainstream orthodox Bible believing view of the future of the human race and of the future of the Christian Church. I can easily post a list of the names of dozens of Christian Postmillennial scholars who believe the Bible is the word of God and 100% true --- but who DISAGREE with Premillennialists on what the Holy Scriptures teach with regard to the end time passages. There is nothing unorthodox about Postmillennialism or Premillennialism or Amillennialism or Dispensationalism. There are large segments within Bible Believing Christendom that holds different views of the future of the human race and the future of the Christian Church. There are 4 of them. All 4 are fully orthodox and fully Christian. (1) Postmillennialism (2) Premillennialism (3) Amillennialism (4) Dispensationalism _____________________ May the Lord bless and keep us. May the Lord make His face to shine upon us. May the Lord be gracious unto us. May the Lord turn His face toward us. May the Lord give us His protection and His peace. (Based upon Numbers 6:24-27) JAG Proposition: There Is No Bible-Verse Argument For A Future Antichrist
  10. JAG**
    "He" did NOT come "during John and the apostles' day" , , , "He" will not "shall come" not ever ---and "he" will never come -- because there is no such thing as some future evil world ruler that is to come that will be called THE antichrist --the claim that there is to be some future THE antichrist is pure personal assumption and pure personal interpretative speculation --- because there is no Bible-verse connection between John's antichrists and any other part of the Bible. The Bible mentions antichrist in ONLY these 4 instances. So you MUST make a clear and solid CONNECTION to John's antichrists ---otherwise give up the name "antichrist" and just issue a proclamation that your imagined future "evil man" is called whatever you want to call him --- just don't call him THE "antichrist" or antichrist. 1 John 2:18 1 John 2:22 1 John 4:3 2 John 7 _____________ There were many antichrists {plural} in John's day and also many antichrists here in our day. JAG
  11. JAG**
    "If what Jag is trying to make us believe is true, we will be deceived when Satan comes because we will not be expecting him. This, Jag, is very dangerous false teaching. Do not be deceived, sibs."___SONshine _____________ Last Daze Replies With: "It is very much a deception. Makes me wonder . . . "___Last Daze ____________ Last Daze, You have no Bible-Verse arguments that can connect John's antichrists with any other parts of the Bible. so you then seek to demonize the message with accusations of "very much a deception" ---and in so doing you also demonize me because it is a sin to be a proclaimer of "very much a deception" _______________________ Last Daze, I write the following to you. I am an orthodox Bible believing born again Christian. My wife and I attend a Bible believing Baptist-type Christian church along with our grown children and our 6 grandchildren. I believe the following with all my mind, heart, and soul: I believe in the Holy Trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I believe in the Deity of the Lord Jesus. That He is fully God. (John 1: 1-5) I believe in the Virgin Birth of the Lord Jesus. I believe in the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus. I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and free from all error. (2 Timothy 3:14-17) I believe in the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus. I believe in a coming Judgment. I believe that salvation is by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus' death on the Cross where He died to pay for our sins. Ephesians 2:8 I believe in John 3:16 with all my heart. I believe in all the orthodox doctrinal Protestant Creeds. That is, I am a Bible believing Protestant in my faith and practice. I am an orthodox Bible believing Postmillennialist. I do NOT hold to a single weird or strange or unusual belief. Postmillennialism is a mainstream orthodox Bible believing view of the future of the human race and of the future of the Christian Church. I can easily post a list of the names of dozens of Christian Postmillennial scholars who believe the Bible is the word of God and 100% true --- but who DISAGREE with Premillennialists on what the Holy Scriptures teach with regard to the end time passages. There is nothing unorthodox about Postmillennialism or Premillennialism or Amillennialism or Dispensationalism. There are large segments within Bible Believing Christendom that holds different views of the future of the human race and the future of the Christian Church. There are 4 of them. All 4 are fully orthodox and fully Christian. (1) Postmillennialism (2) Premillennialism (3) Amillennialism (4) Dispensationalism _____________________ May the Lord bless and keep us. May the Lord make His face to shine upon us. May the Lord be gracious unto us. May the Lord turn His face toward us. May the Lord give us His protection and His peace. (Based upon Numbers 6:24-27) JAG Proposition: There Is No Bible-Verse Argument For A Future Antichrist.
  12. JAG**
    Exactly! Fully agreed.
  13. JAG**
    Agreed.
  14. JAG**
    Proposition: There Is No Bible-Verse Argument For A Future Antichrist. SONshine, You have no Bible-Verse arguments that can connect John's antichrists with any other parts of the Bible, so you then seek to demonize the message with accusations of "very dangerous false teaching" ---and in so doing you also demonize me because it is a sin to be a proclaimer of "very dangerous false teaching." Also JAG is not trying to "make us" believe anything. I write the following just for the record and to you SONshine: I am an orthodox Bible believing born again Christian. My wife and I attend a Bible believing Baptist-type Christian church along with our grown children and our 6 grandchildren. I believe the following with all my mind, heart, and soul: I believe in the Holy Trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I believe in the Deity of the Lord Jesus. That He is fully God. (John 1: 1-5) I believe in the Virgin Birth of the Lord Jesus. I believe in the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus. I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God and free from all error. (2 Timothy 3:14-17) I believe in the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus. I believe in a coming Judgment. I believe that salvation is by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus' death on the Cross where He died to pay for our sins. Ephesians 2:8 I believe in John 3:16 with all my heart. I believe in all the orthodox doctrinal Protestant Creeds. That is, I am a Bible believing Protestant in my faith and practice. I am an orthodox Bible believing Postmillennialist. I do NOT hold to a single weird or strange or unusual belief. Postmillennialism is a mainstream orthodox Bible believing view of the future of the human race and of the future of the Christian Church. I can easily post a list of the names of dozens of Christian Postmillennial scholars who believe the Bible is the word of God and 100% true --- but who DISAGREE with Premillennialists on what the Holy Scriptures teach with regard to the end time passages. There is nothing unorthodox about Postmillennialism or Premillennialism or Amillennialism or Dispensationalism. There are large segments within Bible Believing Christendom that holds different views of the future of the human race and the future of the Christian Church. There are 4 of them. All 4 are fully orthodox and fully Christian. (1) Postmillennialism (2) Premillennialism (3) Amillennialism (4) Dispensationalism _____________________ May the Lord bless and keep us. May the Lord make His face to shine upon us. May the Lord be gracious unto us. May the Lord turn His face toward us. May the Lord give us His protection and His peace. (Based upon Numbers 6:24-27) JAG Proposition: There Is No Bible-Verse Argument For A Future Antichrist.
  15. JAG**
    I understand. Poor Irenaeus. I hope he repented and had a change of heart. The thoughts of anyone being lost is heart-breaking.
  16. JAG**
    Thanks for seeing the point. Much appreciated. Yeah there has been all kinds of wild far-fetched strange speculation about this fictional end times evil world ruler --- he has been identified in most every century with religious zeal by people who "just knew for certain" that they knew who he was. Hitler Mussolini Pope Benedict Barack Obama Ronald Reagan Franklin Roosevelt If you google it you'll pull up some hilarious and scary stuff. ``
  17. JAG**
    Incorrect. I have not convinced the whole world of this. Usually hyperbole has a point ---but you keep asking the same question repeatedly: "what was the name of the "antichrist shall come" person ? From the apostles. Or from the text of the bible. Give the name of the person."___Douggg Here again is my answer: "He" will not "shall come" ---and "he" will never come -- because there is no such thing as some future evil world ruler that is to come that will be called THE antichrist --the claim that there is to be some future THE antichrist is pure personal assumption and pure personal interpretative speculation --- because there is no Bible-verse connection between John's antichrists and any other part of the Bible. The Bible mentions antichrist in ONLY these 4 instances. So you MUST make a clear and solid CONNECTION to John's antichrists ---otherwise give up the name "antichrist" and just issue a proclamation that your imagined future "evil man" is called whatever you want to call him --- just don't call him THE "antichrist" or antichrist. 1 John 2:18 1 John 2:22 1 John 4:3 2 John 7
  18. JAG**
    Thanks. I understand.
  19. JAG**
    Agreed Excellent points.
  20. JAG**
    Regarding Polucarp: Agreed that those who teach false doctrines are antichrists. ___________________ Regarding Irenaeus: He has zero authority. He did NOT write under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Therefore his views are no more than human opinions. Also if we take Irenaeus as an authority ---then if I go and dig up stuff that Irenaeus said that you strongly disagree with ---then you would not want to cite Irenaeus as an authority, right? __________ This is worth repeating , , , "if I go and dig up stuff that Irenaeus said that you strongly disagree with ---then you would not want to cite Irenaeus as an authority, right?__JAG _______ Then this important point: The title of the Opening Post and of this thread is Proposition: There Is No Bible-Verse Argument For A Future Antichrist. So Irenaeus's views would, of course, NOT be a Bible-Verse that made a connection between John's antichrists and any other parts of the Bible --- which is what this particular OP and thread is about. JAG ``
  21. JAG**
    "in my desire for you to answer the question of "what was the person's name if he has already come?"___Douggg JAG Replies: "He" has not already come ---and "he" will never come -- because there is no such thing as some future evil world ruler that is to come that will be called THE antichrist --the claim that there is to be some future THE antichrist is pure personal assumption and pure personal interpretative speculation --- because there is no Bible-verse connection between John's antichrists and any other part of the Bible. The Bible mentions antichrist in ONLY these 4 instances. So you MUST make a clear and solid CONNECTION to John's antichrists ---otherwise give up the name "antichrist" and just issue a proclamation that your imagined future "evil man" is called whatever you want to call him --- just don't call him THE "antichrist" or antichrist. 1 John 2:18 1 John 2:22 1 John 4:3 2 John 7 _______________________ "18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."___Douggg JAG Replies: The antichrists mentioned in John's epistles were in John NEAR FUTURE and NOT in John's FAR OFF FUTURE. Pure speculation about John's "future" yet to come antichrist is NOT a COMPELLING argument because the Biblical text nowhere in John's epistles gives any indication that John was saying that the antichrist was in John's FAR OFF FUTURE. That means that John's antichrist appeared in John's NEAR FUTURE and in fact John's epistles clearly support the NEAR FUTURE interpretation. Evidence to support the NEAR FUTURE interpretation is the clear statements in John's epistles that certainly and COMPELLINGLY identify John's antichrists as JOHN'S PRESENT DAY Christian apostates. John clearly said the following about them, and about his present time of the first century: (1) "this is the last hour" (written over 2000 years ago and clearly not a reference to the year 2020) "this is the last hour" is a clear reference to the time when John wrote that, namely the first century. (2) "even NOW many antichrists have come." (John's antichrist were there in the first century) (3) "they went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us, but their going showed that none of them belonged to us" In (3) up there John is clearly speaking about his time of the first century and clearly does NOT have reference to some future time period. So? So the Bible is CLEAR that John's antichrists were first century Christian apostates. JAG
  22. JAG**
    "He" has not already come ---and "he" will never come -- because there is no such thing as some future evil world ruler that is to come that will be called THE antichrist --the claim that there is to be some future THE antichrist is pure personal assumption and pure personal interpretative speculation --- because there is no Bible-verse connection between John's antichrists and any other part of the Bible. The Bible mentions antichrist in ONLY these 4 instances. So you MUST make a clear and solid CONNECTION to John's antichrists ---otherwise give up the name "antichrist" and just issue a proclamation that your imagined future "evil man" is called whatever you want to call him --- just don't call him THE "antichrist" or antichrist. 1 John 2:18 1 John 2:22 1 John 4:3 2 John 7 _______________ John's antichrists were in John's near future , , , Evidence to support the NEAR FUTURE interpretation is the clear statements in John's epistles that certainly and COMPELLINGLY identify John's antichrists as JOHN'S PRESENT DAY Christian apostates. John clearly said the following about them, and about his present time of the first century: (1) "this is the last hour" (written over 2000 years ago and clearly not a reference to the year 2020) "this is the last hour" is a clear reference to the time when John wrote that, namely the first century. (2) "even NOW many antichrists have come." (John's antichrist were there in the first century) (3) "they went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us, but their going showed that none of them belonged to us" In (3) up there John is clearly speaking about his time of the first century and clearly does NOT have reference to some future time period. So? So the Bible is CLEAR that John's antichrists were first century Christian apostates. _____________________________ You keep asking me the same question over and over. I have explained my answer to you several times. I think we are at the point where we will have to agree to disagree.
  23. JAG**
    The antichrists mentioned in John's epistles were in John NEAR FUTURE and NOT in John's FAR OFF FUTURE. Pure speculation about John's "future" yet to come antichrist is NOT a COMPELLING argument because the Biblical text nowhere in John's epistles gives any indication that John was saying that the antichrist was in John's FAR OFF FUTURE. That means that John's antichrist appeared in John's NEAR FUTURE and in fact John's epistles clearly support the NEAR FUTURE interpretation. Evidence to support the NEAR FUTURE interpretation is the clear statements in John's epistles that certainly and COMPELLINGLY identify John's antichrists as JOHN'S PRESENT DAY Christian apostates. John clearly said the following about them, and about his present time of the first century: (1) "this is the last hour" (written over 2000 years ago and clearly not a reference to the year 2020) "this is the last hour" is a clear reference to the time when John wrote that, namely the first century. (2) "even NOW many antichrists have come." (John's antichrist were there in the first century) (3) "they went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us, but their going showed that none of them belonged to us" In (3) up there John is clearly speaking about his time of the first century and clearly does NOT have reference to some future time period. So? So the Bible is CLEAR that John's antichrists were first century Christian apostates.
  24. JAG**
    "He" has not already come ---and "he" will never come -- because there is no such thing as some future evil world ruler that is to come that will be called THE antichrist --the claim that there is to be some future THE antichrist is pure personal assumption and pure personal interpretative speculation --- because there is no Bible-verse connection between John's antichrists and any other part of the Bible. The Bible mentions antichrist in ONLY these 4 instances. So you MUST make a clear and solid CONNECTION to John's antichrists ---otherwise give up the name "antichrist" and just issue a proclamation that your imagined future "evil man" is called whatever you want to call him --- just don't call him THE "antichrist" or antichrist. 1 John 2:18 1 John 2:22 1 John 4:3 2 John 7
  25. JAG**
    "He" has not already come ---and "he" will never come -- because there is no such thing as some future evil world ruler that is to come that will be called THE antichrist --the claim that there is to be some future THE antichrist is pure personal assumption and pure personal interpretative speculation --- because there is no Bible-verse connection between John's antichrists and any other part of the Bible. The Bible mentions antichrist in ONLY these 4 instances. So you MUST make a clear and solid CONNECTION to John's antichrists ---otherwise give up the name "antichrist" and just issue a proclamation that your imagined future "evil man" is called whatever you want to call him --- just don't call him THE "antichrist" or antichrist. 1 John 2:18 1 John 2:22 1 John 4:3 2 John 7 `
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