Marcus O'Reillius

As far as the Jews go: 1. The first of the Remnant flee, escape; go into the wilderness - from Judea when the anti-Christ invades Israel and surrounds the "Holy Mountain" upon which the Temple is. (Olivet Discourse of Mt 24, Rev 12:6/14). 2. Another contingent flee Jerusalem on the Day of the Lord after Jesus touches down on the Mount of Olives, splitting it in two. (Zec 14:4-5). 3. A third contingent will survive the whole of the God's Wrath in Jerusalem, having been spared on the Day of the Lord, (Eze 9:4), and surviving the final Great Earthquake which culminates the one 'seven' - Rev 11:13. 4. Finally, there will be Jews from around the world, (mostly women Isa 4) who survive the one 'seven' as well - and with the Meek who survive (Zec 8:23) start their sojourn to Mount Zion. At no time do they have an "anti-King of Israel" per se - except for that portion of the Great Tribulation prior to the Day of the Lord when the anti-Christ rules it as a conquered nation. Still, he is not "the" King of Israel.

Again, there is nothing in Scripture about this.

The anti-Christ is "undone" by God's desolations, the last of which, the Bowl Judgments, are poured out upon him. The anti-Christ, the King of the North, is victorious over the Kings of the South and East at Armageddon - thus becoming the first to conquer the whole world - the real "Risk" game of all of history as it will be - only to be defeated in Pyrrhic fashion by our Lord Christ Jesus and His Army: the 144,000 who never leave His Side (Rev 14:4) and is captured alive - not killed. The anti-Christ is the anti-Christ all through the one 'seven' - and until such time that he is destroyed in the Lake of Fire - being the first, along with the false prophet - to be thrown into it - and with the added distinction of being thrown in while still in his flesh and blood body!

This really has no basis in end-time prophecy so it's impossible to really comment upon it other than to say, "What an imagination!"

Again, off you go making an equation which is not in end-time prophecy. No, he is the King of the North at the start of the one 'seven' - that dragon-beast of a nation made up of the first three beasts of Daniel 7 as revealed in Rev 13:2. He does not even enter Israel until the Gog/Magog war in retaliation for the "fire from the sky" precipitated by the false prophet (of the land, i.e., Israel) - Rev 13, which culminates with his surrounding Jerusalem in his encampment prior to the midpoint concession on the part of the now-defeated false prophet - who has charge over the Temple - so that the false prophet presents the King of the North with his "prize" - a talking image of himself in the Temple. Then - he is revealed to be the character he's been all along: the anti-Christ. The King of the North is the anti-Christ. He is never proclaimed the King of Israel in all this. Israel just becomes his (temporary) possession.

Yes, I refer to Scripture. You refer to something that is not in Scripture. The King of the West - Obama? Trump? Prince Charles? We can go on and on in this game of pin-the-tail on the anti-Christ. There is no "King of the West" in end-time prophecy. If we're going to have a discussion of eschatology - then you're going to have to stick to the Bible.

So what? Their opinion doesn't alter the truth.

Why don't you tell me...

How prescient of you to know what I don't know! Jesus fulfilled that prophecy concerning the Messiah - but to say the anti-Christ must be the king of Israel is not a facet of end-time prophecy. He is the King of the North; the amalgamated construct of three powerful kingdoms - Rev 13:2 and Daniel 7. He conquers Israel in the Gog/Magog war, surrounding Jerusalem - Luke 21:20 and Daniel 11:45. He is the one who is in the Temple proclaiming himself as god - Mt 24:15 and 2Th 2:4. He is the one who begins the one 'seven' by forcing through a covenant with many - - is responsible for the mid-point abomination (revealed as the talking image - Rev 13:14-15) - and in the end (of the one 'seven') had God's desolations poured out upon him (with the Bowl Judgments).

Oh course I disagree with what the Jewish leaders of Jesus' Day gave Him for a title because they would not accept the title Pilate gave Him: King of the Jews. I'm surprised you're making so much of what those who did not believe in Jesus said. You're really going off track now. No, he must be the Wizard of Id, don't you know your comic strips? I don't have to add "anti-" to the epitaph the Jewish leaders labeled Jesus to find the anti-Christ in Scripture. I have: the King of the North, the little horn, the man of perdition, the beast of a man, and the ruler (prince) who will come. The eighth "head" is the dragon-beast of a nation itself. An Angel tells John that in Revelation. The sixth "head" of seven is the one who "is" at the end-times. The seventh is at the end of the Millennium. (Five have already come and gone.) But let's play pin-the-tail on the anti-Christ some more... this is fun! Why we can say it's anyone!

It doesn't say that. So again, spirits have stomachs? My argument is far from moot, but that won't prevent this argument from going on, forever.

I find this laughable. I stand by my assessment.

No, I disagree wholly, with everything here.

Now for an alternate view of Daniel 9:27 and Revelation, here are the five times the one 'seven' is mentioned in Revelation in reverse order. First of all, Daniel 9:27 sets up the beginning, the middle, and the end of the one 'seven'. Second of all, Revelation is made up of parallel accounts. I view Revelation chapters 13-16 as one linear narrative centering on the theme of the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ. In chapters 13-16: - we see the rise of the dragon-beast of a nation. - the rise of the beast of a man, who begins the one 'seven', being the ruler who will come. - who is given authority to rule for the first half of the one 'seven' - with this authority, he wages war upon Christians. - the rise of the false prophet from the "land" who rains "fire" from "heaven" and has control over the Temple. - and finally - the midpoint abomination of desolation spoken by Gabriel revealed to be a talking image of the beast of a man. - following this, is the reason for the Great Tribulation which comes before the Day of the Lord in the Olivet Discourse, and likewise in another view of the same event: the Harvest from the clouds in Revelation 14:14-16. - The end comes with chapter 16 at Armageddon, which is not detailed in this account, but awaits the final epilogue account of Revelation chapters 19-22. In Revelation chapter 12, I view it as the twin parallel accounts going from the Jesus' First Advent to the second half of the one 'seven' where the Remnant Jews are protected. This puts the time frame for both to around two millennia. - the first twin parallel account (1-6) centers around the woman, Israel: see Genesis 37:9-10 - She is provided for in the second half of the one 'seven' with refuge from Satan's minions. - the second twin parallel account (7-17) centers around the dragon-Satan. - It too spans around two millennia going from Jesus' adjudication before the Father (Zec 3:1-8) to the same second half of the one 'seven'. - The difference between Jew and Christian is set in verse 17, and that is synonymous with the Great Tribulation caused by Rev 13:14-16. In what I view as the Sidebar Account of Revelation 11:1-13 - which happens when the Seal/Scroll narrative is interrupted when John is told not to write what was said: - The first half of the one 'seven' concerns the building of the Temple - which will house the talking image of the anti-Christ, the midpoint abomination of desolation that Jesus said would be in the "Holy Place" in Mt 24:15. - The second half of the one 'seven' has the Two Witnesses preceding Christ Jesus' Parousia coming as God's first responders to the midpoint abomination. - They continue to the end of the one 'seven' and finally complete the number of fifth Seal martyrs only at the end of the one 'seven'. _______________________________________________________________ In Daniel 12, the time line given ADDS two time frames, the 30-day and 45-day periods. This is very important to the Remnant Jews who fled at: 1) the midpoint surrounding of Jerusalem from Judea 2) Jerusalem on the Day of the Lord and escape through the newly cleft valley in the Mount of Olives 3) Those few Jews who survive the whole of the one 'seven' in Jerusalem. And who were whisked around as per Rev 16:15 and Isaiah 42:16 must be joined by other Jews around the world who will lead the Meek to finally seek the Lord! (Zec 8:23). Daniel 12 sets up the sojourn and encampment at Mount Zion which precedes the Millennium. It is during this time that the three previous beasts of Daniel 7 are permitted to live after He has cut the "head" off of the dragon-beast of a nation. The midpoint of the one 'seven' is in the middle. The abomination of desolation, revealed as a talking image of the beast of a man - the King of the North - set up in the Temple built in the first half of the one 'seven' - acts as a trip wire for God's Rescue of His People: the Elect - us. This classical hero story sets up all such super-hero tales: the plot is advanced by the evil-doer, and when he has committed his crime - then the hero responds and finishes the job.

That's hardly clear. First of all, it's just "in spirit". There is no "the" to designate a specific spirit. Now what does "in spirit" mean? It is not "as a spirit". And it is not quite like an out-of-body experience. Even Paul doesn't know quite what to make of it as I think John is the man Paul is referring to in this verse: 2Co 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. It is not clear to Paul which way John was transported to Heaven. While he was in spirit in Rev 1:10 when He hears God, which can mean to be spiritually in tune as it is used in other places in the New Testament -- -- that is quite different than being "in spirit" when John moves to Heaven, because now John has been relocated. Paul doesn't think it's clear at all whether God moved John's body to the spiritual plane of God that no one can travel to even with airplanes and rockets. Now I think God did move John's person into the spiritual realm - just as Jesus popped into and out of our world after He rose from the grave but before He ascended. And when I say that, it does not violate John 3:13 because John did not ascend himself (the Greek active voice) - he was commanded by God to 'come up here' - and he was immediately transported - but not by his own power.

Silly rabbit; Trix are for kids. Romans 9:13 quotes Malachi 1:2-3 (Paul did not have our medieval chapter/verse system). Neither Romans 9:13 nor Malachi 1:3 establishes that there was an Esau before he was born that God hated. SO! Neither verse supports your argument that we were alive WITH God before we were born using the Prophet as the object of God's Word in Jeremiah 1:5. Like Isaiah 49 - While I said that I viewed the Prophet's vision to that of being an insight into this very special Father-Son relationship between God the Father and our Lord Christ Jesus -- I will have to change my assessment. (This is still not a particularly important verse to me...) Jeremiah IS the object of that verse. (I'm used to hearing the verse just as 'I knew you before you were born' - as if we all were with God the Father. I don't think so. However - for Jesus that was true! Now I will say: Jeremiah 1:5 demonstrates that God's KNOWLEDGE transcends our linear time line existence! It is entirely possible, yet not fathomable for us mere mortals bound by linear tick-tock time, for God to foreknow our destiny! This is the conundrum Christians are faced with when they look at Paul's statements on predestination. However, we can reconcile free will and predestination when we look at time from an imaginary vantage point: IF our time lines were linear lines on a flat endless two-dimensional plane - yet we could observe ALL from a third dimension of time (like space) which was above it - and thus could "SEE" all of it - then that ONE person would know ahead of our time where our path led! So Jeremiah 1:5 STILL does not prove we were alive with God before we were born. You can say it "clearly" does mean that - but all that does is demonstrate your heart-felt conclusion which you tell yourself is true. What about Esau? Why are you going on about him? Are you trying to make some great point about some minor player? Are you trying to pull an "inchrist" and translate him to importance beyond his role like "inchrist" says of Ephraim? So your question is on ignore. It is not relevant to end-time prophecy unless you want to look at the Millennium redemption of Israel - his brother and the father of a nation of hard-headed unbelievers in Christ Jesus.

You used "clear" twice. So this is a double-down prior conclusion of yours? So clearly it was a spiritual stomach ache he had... Yes, that is sarcasm because you failed to reconcile contradictory evidence in the Bible. If you want to tell me something is "clear" then it must be clear-cut. This is not clear-cut. "Clearly" on your part clearly means it is your concrete opinion which will stand defiantly in opposition to any other argument. Nothing new there. I've yet to see anyone but me change their mind based on a post on a message board. Some people cannot be sharpened; others refuse to be sharpened. Rev 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. One moment John is standing on Patmos. The next moment John is standing in Heaven before the Father - whom no one has seen before and returned. HOW he got there was in spirit. "the" is added in translation, and your reading in an English translation does not necessarily mean John was reduced to a spiritual entity. It was not just his soul that was transported to a plane of existence we can never travel to despite all our machinery, because souls don't really come equipped with bodily organs - Rev 10:10. The Bible rarely tells us HOW God does things. This is one too. To say it is "clear" when contradictory evidence is given for a physical, mortal body, then is not iron-clad clear-cut, but just a conclusion you're going to hold onto despite any investigation. This is why we should never make too much of any one verse - myopically focusing on just one small aspect ignores the greater weight of Scripture. John returned. So John 3:13 did not preclude his transport there and back! What Jesus said established two things: No one has the power to go to Heaven on their own! John had to be called AND he had to be transported there in a way which is NOT explained. What Jesus said established His Authority to speak on behalf of the Father. That is the point of John 3:13. Read it in context; Jesus is explaining certain things to Nicodemus, who has some modicum of understanding but who is still befuddled by Jesus' Words which act as a stumbling stone to him. Nothing new there - that was also prophesized to happen. John 3:13 does not prove that we don't go to Heaven with the Rapture as some try to twist this verse to mean against contradictory passages in the Bible.

Malachi 1:3 doesn't say that God hated him before he was born.

Oh, it must have been a spirit stomach ache... I'm amazed at how particular some people must be when they insist that the Bible spell everything out for them when their beliefs are challenged, but they have no problem making up whole meaning out of figurative interpretation on the other hand to support their own beliefs.

Rev 10:10.

No, because John didn't take himself there. He has no power to "go" to Heaven on his own. That is what the Greek active voice is saying. No one can go to Heaven of their own accord - is what Jesus said in John 3:13 as John wrote it.

No, Paul doesn't know. John didn't say anything like that. John had a body in Revelation - where he did go to Heaven. He adopted a posture of worship to an Angel and was rebuked. He ate the scroll that was presented to him and tasted it. He was told to go measure the (future) Temple, and you can read where Ezekiel sees a man doing this in his book.

Negative Ghostrider. John was physically taken up. He did not leave a lifeless body back on Patmos. Same for Enoch and Elijah. And now the "men wondered at" in Zechariah 3:8 - whom I think followed Jesus in His Ascension and whom I also think are the 24 Elders. NONE of them got there on their own power. No one has the innate ability to take themselves to Heaven except Jesus.

Negative Ghostrider. John was physically taken up. He did not leave a lifeless body back on Patmos. Same for Enoch and Elijah. And now the "men wondered at" in Zechariah 3:8 - whom I think followed Jesus in His Ascension and whom I also think are the 24 Elders. NONE of them got there on their own power. No one has the innate ability to take themselves to Heaven except Jesus.

I don't think your "point" is true.