Marcus O'Reillius

Oh really? (My last name: O'Reillius) The Olivet Discourse is addressed only to 1st century Israel? Then why is Jesus' audience the very nexus of the Church. Who needs more study? You should never let your eschatology determine your theology. The book of Matthew is centered around five major discourses by Jesus, and only the last one - where He answers when He will come again - doesn't pertain to us -- according to you. And according to you -- Matthew's use of "elect" for whom is gathered up - is not defined as it is everywhere else in the New Testament - and Matthew was probably written after the Jewish Disciples of Jesus saw that the Holy Spirit was opened up to Gentiles too, as it was in Antioch.

According to you but not according to what Jesus said in the Olivet Discouse.

What we have is a failure to communicate. As is so typical on these eschatology boards, there is more opinion spouted as fact, than real, reliable interpretation. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the one 'seven' as it is expressed by Gabriel to Daniel is called the "tribulation period." You can call it the "70th week" but I prefer how God conveyed it through His messenger to us. Jesus defines the beginning and the end of the "Great Tribulation" in the Olivet Discourse. The Great Tribulation starts with the (midpoint: Daniel 9:27) abomination of desolation. And the Great Tribulation ends with the Day of the Lord's signature sun/moon/star sign. The start is replicated in Revelation chapter 13, verses 14-17. With the talking image of the anti-Christ, the abomination, comes two laws that affect only believers who hold to God's Commandment not to worship the beast or take his mark. The end of that oppression against us comes with the Harvest of Revelation chapter 14. The fact that Jesus gives us the two events, one from Daniel and the other replicated in the sixth Seal, allows us to sequence the one 'seven' of Daniel 9:27 to the Seals. Jesus' sequencing of events places the Rapture as happening after the midpoint abomination and the Great Tribulation.

I agree that Revelation 6:12-14 describes the Return of our Lord on the Day of the Lord. Movies are nice, but they're not real. It is not the Rapture of the Church exactly. That happens after the 144,000 are sealed. How about the moment that Christ Returns? The Wrath of God does not begin until a respectful period of silence when the Scroll, which contains the "desolations (which) have been decreed" (Daniel 9:26) are finally released when Jesus breaks the last Seal on the Scroll. Marrying this passage of Revelation to the one 'seven' of Daniel 9:27 is possible because Jesus gives us the sequence of events which happen to sequence the Day of the Lord to the one 'seven' in the Olivet Discourse. So, the Great Tribulation (not the "beginning of the tribulation") ENDS with the arrival of the Day of the Lord and the scrolling of the sky. In a parallel account to the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11, the 144,000 again preceded the "harvesting" of the earth - which is another descriptive term for the Rapture. Agreed. This is the result of the Rapture, which is not described in this account within the book of Revelation. No. That's something keras would say. We await the formation of the fourth terrible beast first, then the start of the one 'seven'. Hint: when you see a Temple being built in Jerusalem, the one 'seven' has begun, and you can 'hack the clock' on when the midpoint abomination comes. The Great Tribulation, described coincidental to that in Revelation chapter 13:15-17, then begins. No one knows how long the Great Tribulation goes on, because no one knows when the Day of the Lord will begin. No, probably not. There is no earthly timeframe we can peg to the fifth Seal. It could be coincidental with the start of the Great Tribulation, its ongoing time, or right near the end of it. Again, the one 'seven' has not yet begun. And this whole nonsense of 20 years as an equation for the moment of silence in Heaven is just that: nonsense.

Ah no.

I disagree, and I will continue to disagree with you. We're kind-of done here 'I am Lamad'.

No - they were Disciples!

What kind of perverted question is that?

Oh yeah, a new class of people never mentioned in the Bible - "tribulation saints". Uh-huh. Yeah, right. No, I don't believe you or your take on this.

Is this more prophecy from you? Why don't we all become like children and just say it will all pan out in the end and become Pan-Millennials instead.

But Jesus is not talking to the "Jews" - the religious authorities of that time. Jesus is speaking to the Church. This discourse, is the fifth and final discourse of Matthew, who centers his Gospel around those discourses. All of them are relevant to us. We have a deep difference in opinion. Yours is necessitated by your eschatology.

To quote Top Gun: "Negative Ghostrider." That's your eschatology, not mine - nor is it consistent with the whole of end-time prophecy. From the second of two twin parallel accounts in chapter 12: Rev 12:16-17 But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And from Rev chapters 13-16; the detailed parallel account of just the one 'seven' as appended to the broad overview of the Seals/Scroll account of Rev chapters 4-11: Rev 13:7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them...

We have a difference of opinion there too. Well now you're starting your question off on your premise, which I have concluded after study, has no basis in Scripture. I also notice it includes the preposition "if" - and so I have to play along with your a priori and foregone conclusion. I would change your follow on to your faulty premise of a Pre-Trib Rapture that - The Church Age ends ON the Day of the Lord. And furthermore, the Day of the Lord, and its "Last Day" is not the last day of the one 'seven'. ____________________________ So restating your "what if" question - I will simply declare that the Rapture happens on the (first part of the) Day of the Lord in the second half of the one 'seven' at some unknown Day that only the Father knows. And everything I just stated is in accordance with Scripture. But I'm not going to play your "what if" game.

Furthermore: Jesus was talking to the Apostles: the nexus of the Church - the Elect. Jesus is answering their question, not as to when the Temple would be torn down (figuratively speaking of His body the next day, or literally speaking of the Temple in nearly four decades) - but when He would Return. Neither is the Olivet Discourse is in isolation. Jesus had just told them in John 14:3 that when He Returns: If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. We have reason to conclude that the gathering of the Church as the Elect will happen in verse Mt 24:31.

So in this one case, against all the other uses of "Elect" in the NT - it means something else than what it means everywhere else because if it does mean us, it spoils the whole eschatology of "Pre-Trib". And to believe this, you must accept the premise that Daniel is ONLY Jewish, and not part of the "Elect" who will be selected by God to be raised on the "Last Day" with the Saints. However, Daniel is no mere Jew that the seventy 'sevens' are only for the Jews.

I said: This comes from: The Lamb and the 144,000 on Mount Zion - Rev 14:1-15: Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless. Again, personal belief is fine. You can believe anything you like. Just don't tell me what you believe is the truth, when it conflicts with Scripture. I would also reference the prophet Isaiah who said this as being akin to the 144,000 ISA 13:2 Raise a banner on a bare hilltop, shout to them; beckon to them to enter the gates of the nobles. ISA 13:3 I have commanded my holy ones; I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath-- those who rejoice in my triumph. ISA 13:4 Listen, a noise on the mountains, like that of a great multitude! Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms, like nations massing together! The LORD Almighty is mustering an army for war. ISA 13:5 They come from faraway lands, from the ends of the heavens-- the LORD and the weapons of his wrath-- to destroy the whole country. ISA 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. Isaiah 13 is married by Isaiah’s parallel account in 5:26. ISA 5:26 He lifts up a banner for the distant nations, he whistles for those at the ends of the earth. Here they come, swiftly and speedily! I don't think as you do. I think the first fruits of the Harvest are of the same type as we: the Elect.

When Matthew wrote this in the 50's, the Jewish Apostles in Jerusalem had learned that they were not the sole recipients of the Holy Spirit; that the Holy Spirit was also poured out upon Gentiles. Which, I think, is the whole reason that we see the transition from Jew/Gentile from the OT to "Elect" in the NT. When the NT speaks of the "Elect" as a people, or when addressing someone (as a person) as being "Elect" - Scripture is uniform in the NT as designating these people as God's Chosen people regardless of the previous delineation of Jew or Gentile. We truly have surpassed that separation in Christ Jesus. When Matthew writes "Elect" in the Greek for what Jesus said in the Aramaic: he is designating US. "WE" is in "Elect." WE ARE the "Elect". _________________________________________________________ . Pre-Trib demands that this gathering of US is not the Rapture. This statement of yours is a matter of conclusion, of fidelity to an eschatology; rather than a true statement of fact. It is a matter of circular logic: Since Pre-Trib presumes the Rapture happens before the one 'seven' (which they mistakenly call the "Trib") any verse which indicates that it happens during the one 'seven' ("Trib") CANNOT be the Rapture... and round and round we go.

You have crossed over sound exegesis and have joined those who now proclaim to "know" based on your testimony that "God told me," or that "The Holy Spirit told me." So prophet iamlamad: if your prophecy is true, then it cannot conflict with actual prophecy from Jesus. Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse, that we would see these events come in this order (Mt 24:15-31) The (midpoint) abomination (of Daniel 9:27) The Great Tribulation The sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord from OT prophets. The Sign of the Son of Man The Gathering of the Elect (rapture). In the sixth Seal, Jesus told John: The sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord from OT prophets. The Scrolling of the Sky - which is a Sign. The "mustering" of the 144,000. The ARRIVAL in Heaven of the Great Multitude OUT OF the Great Tribulation. In the parallel account to the Seal/Scroll chronology, in chapters 13-16 Jesus showed John: Ch 13: The rise of a beast of a nation. The rise of a beast of a man. The false prophet of the land (Israel). The revealed abomination of Daniel 9:27 as a talking image of the beast of a man. Two Laws that make the Great Tribulation so terrible for the Elect. Ch 14: Jesus on the earth with the 144,000. Three Angels. The Gathering Harvest of the Elect from the clouds by Jesus. The First Trumpet Winepress of God's Wrath, specifically: the Day of the Lord's Wrath. In Daniel, Gabriel, who is a messenger from God to whom Jesus calls a prophet: Daniel The one 'seven' begins with a covenant. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ Now in all these - the one 'seven' begins with an agreement forged by the beast of a man, the ruler who will come. The midpoint abomination happens before the Rapture - so the one 'seven began THREE AND A HALF YEARS PRIOR. Likewise, the Result of that Rapture happens with the sixth Seal - so by THAT TIME - the one 'seven's covenant was made MORE THAN three and a half years prior. In the detailed parallel account, the Rapture from the clouds happens after the midpoint abomination and the Great Tribulation. In ALL OF THESE - the one 'seven' has already started BEFORE the Rapture. ONLY in your head, do you have a statement which is at odds with actual prophecy. So for this reason, your testimony - which does not conform to Scripture - must be discounted, and rejected. Don't believe everything you think - or think you hear...

This "fact" of yours, which forms the foundation for what follows, has no, real basis in prophecy. It is a conclusion you have drawn yourself.

You've taken that passage totally out of context with what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse, making it sound like this is the unparalleled time of distress for the Elect. Her "children" are also going to be killed off with pestilence in the next verse. So you suppose this is the same period because of a coincidence of wording. However, it is localized to a time and place - Thyatira. And the whole of the churches should learn the lesson - that unless they overcome, they too will be cast like grass into the furnace. So I do doubt you very much so. There is no direct evidence of a "pretrib" Rapture in the Bible. The gathering from the clouds that Jesus does in Rev 14 comes after the midpoint of Rev 13:14-15, and the Great Tribulation caused by Rev 1315-17. This is congruent with the Olivet Discourse. Likewise, in the opening broad overview of the end in Rev chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13), the Great Multitude show up in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation. The message that the Rapture happens after the midpoint abomination and Great Tribulation is consistent even unto Paul in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-8.

There is only one Great Tribulation as defined by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse. And no less an authority than one of the 24 Elders said the Great Multitude came out of the Great Tribulation. To put the Rapture before the Great Tribulation means having to redefine who the Elect are in Matthew 24:31, literally, re-writing the Bible.

This is just blatantly wrong; I say NO such thing. (Can keras get anything right?) Pre-Wrath places the Rapture to Heaven coincidental to the sixth Seal - AFTER the midpoint Abomination - and AFTER the shortened Great Tribulation But BEFORE the seventh Seal is broken which allows the Scroll to be opened and the Trumpet announcements of God's desolations, His Wrath - decreed so long ago - go forth. (and the first Trumpet supplies much of the Wrath of God which goes forth on the second half of the Day of the Lord.)

Thanks Roy.

Well, there is another explanation: it's for us to know when the time is ripe for our Lord's Return - when every eye will see Him. Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, The Olivet message in Luke is to lift up your head because your redemption is drawing near. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.

And Daniel 11:36, I'm still waiting for your study of "Elect" which dictates that we read it as "tribulation saints" in Matthew's account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse.