Marcus O'Reillius

Once again, you have your interpretation wrong. Ezekiel is written to Israel, not the Church. That is why in the New Testament, we are the Elect gathered up at the First Resurrection, and the Jews coming in at the Second Resurrection are the sheep.

Nonsense. It is a visual presentation, a sign of the miraculous by God because skies do not "scroll" by themselves. When the world sees the scrolling of the sky, they will know it is FROM God. That's what signs do: inform. No, that is a simile. His coming will be like lightning. This is why I do not think your work is very scholarly.

Now you see this is where inchrist is deliberately taking Scripture out of context. And none of them dictate that we receive them in Jerusalem. Isaiah 40 is addressed to Israel, and is in the time of the Sabbath Millennium with no warfare.

It's not the Millennium. Jesus' revelation of what is in store for the Great Multitude do not change the fact that this is the first instance John has seen then IN HEAVEN and the Wrath of God has not yet come in this linear narrative which sets up the broad overview of the end-times. They are dressed in robes they have cleaned in the blood of the Lamb, standing before the Father on the Throne, in His Temple, in Heaven - which is the same scene that John reports in chapters 4 & 5. The Scroll is still in the PROCESS of being OPENED. To say I assume and dismiss all the other evidence pointing to a here-and-now presentation of the Great Multitude - who have JUST COME OUT OF the Great Tribulation - and then ASSUME on your part that because they will do certain things, that they are doing them THEN - when they're just standing there holding palm fronds - is deliciously ironic in light of your accusation of assumption on my part.

I didn't say that. You're setting up a straw-man argument. That's a fallacy in argument. I said I thought the "sign" of the Son of Man (Mt 24:30) was the scrolling of the sky that comes after the sun/moon/star event of the sixth Seal (Rev 6:14).

A false proof. Finding two times the word "reward" is used and then jumping to an unsupported conclusion does not show He "comes" WITH the rewards He will give. There are seven Crowns in the NT as a couple of writers have listed them. We will give an account of ourselves at the "unveiling". We will be rewarded for what we have done - our sins being washed clean by the blood of the Lamb so we are not judged guilty as we should be... And that is for the hereafter. Saying it is on earth is not supported anywhere in the text. So you have manifested TWO of my complaints about how you post - You demand others perform false tests, and you link Scripture without context.

I would not agree in whole. In fact, I think the first four may already be opened, the fifth has no firm tie-in to the one 'seven', and the sixth is tied to the Day of the Lord - which has yet to come. In the detailed parallel account to the Seal/Scroll chronology, in Rev chapters 13-16 the Day of the Lord, with its Harvest of Saints, cones after the midpoint abomination revealed to be a talking image of the anti-Christ. This agrees with Jesus' Olivet Discourse with it's listing of the midpoint abomination, then the Great Tribulation, and then the same sun/moon/star event heralding the Day of the Lord. Then Jesus comes and as with Rev 14:14-16, then gathers the Elect. These show up in the barn of Heaven as the Great Multitude in Rev 7:9-17. These people come out of the Great Tribulation, just as Jesus outlined in the Olivet Discourse.

And to the contrary, I would say based on the similarity between the sixth Seal's precursor celestial signs to the Day of the Lord from the Old Testament and the Olivet Discourse by Jesus (same source: God) ~ that the matching -in order- of both the 144,000 the Harvest of Revelation chapter 14 - and the listing of the 144,000 and the Great Multitude showing up in Heaven as the result of that Harvest in the sixth Seal ~ describe the same time frame. Therefore, as the talking image of Rev 13:14-15 precedes the arrival of Jesus in Rev 14:1 in one linear narrative - that likewise, in the parallel timeframe of the sixth Seal - that the those in hiding already have taken the 'mark of the beast' and worshipped his image. So I would say the wicked have taken the 'mark of the beast' has happened by that time -and as I read further into God's desolations - none of the people left repent UNTIL the very end, when those (Jews) in Jerusalem survive the Great Earthquake at the end - finally praise God.

That's why I waited until today. I did not think 'demanded' was hateful.

True: that is the first use of the term. And John truthfully reports what they say. But ~ are the wicked - who don't "get" God right, ever - are they right about what God is about to do when the sun/moon/star event shakes them up? As I read the parallel account to the Seal/Scroll chronology - the broad overview to the end-times - in its detailed, parallel account in Revelation chapters 13-16 -- In chapter 14, after the midpoint abomination of the talking image - we see: 1-5 Jesus with the 144,000 of the sixth Seal standing on Mount Zion. 7-12 Three Angels who 1.) Complete the Gospel Command of Mt 24:14 and 2.) Warn the wicked that they will perish. 13 An announcement. 14-16 The Harvest. 17-20 God's Wrath involving blood and fire - which also come with the first Trumpet - IAW Rev 8:7. In this linear narrative spelling out a timeline series of events (the announcement is not an event per se) the wicked will "know" God's Wrath is coming. My point: At the time of the end, when Jesus is coming - He is NOT coming for them NEXT. The wicked "know" God's Wrath is coming, and it will come. However, and moreover! ~ God does not reveal to John ANY desolation coincident with the sixth Seal which affects the world like the Trumpet Judgments which follow the Harvest. So the statement that the wicked make is not necessarily true. It is only true that they say that at that particular time. I always consider who is speaking when considering what is in the Bible. Not all sources are the same.

When faced with continual attack by various other adherents of different eschatological schools for absolute proof to exact wording and then being mocked because prophecy rarely ever says how something will be accomplished and never spells out everything that will happen in one succinct summation - which would dispel 95% of the various ways people do put the end-times together as they try to sort out the complex and seemingly contradictory verses and passages - and - while you could say it's heavy handed, it's an apt defense when I have been charged with heresy, false teaching, and advancing Satan's cause by those same people who do not agree with me. Ultimately, I know what other people think does not change the truth. As I am just seeking the truth, I also know they, like me, do not necessarily possess it. As it is, I am willing to be sharpened, but all too often, especially with this poster; I just get attacked without the love we should show one another. So when I say he demands, that is my opinion of his attacks upon me.

Now I am curious. When do you believe God's Wrath begins?

If you do not read another's explanation to put the relevant quoted material in context - then you cannot say I failed to address your specific allegation that Revelation 7:9-17 is Millennium in its timeframe. I tried to break it down for you, but you won't respond in return. Merely repeating the initial charge is hardly debate.

No, those statements of mine about the statements for the Great Multitude do show our blessed hope. The evidence that they in Heaven is what you didn't read. The statements that they will administer to the Lord also do not dictate your supposition - that we do it on the earth in Jerusalem. What Ezekiel 44:15 says is that Levites "who kept charge of My sanctuary when the sons of Israel went astray from Me, shall come near to Me to minister to Me; and they shall stand before Me to offer Me the fat and the blood,” ~ That is a Millennium passage, and it describes two sets of Levite Priests who lived before - who will live again... which is not something that can happen during the Church Age when we have but one life to life: Heb 9:27.

Said without any Scriptural support at all as is demanded by this poster towards anyone else.

Not when the wicked say it is coming. I think it comes with the first Trumpet - after the Scroll has been unsealed. The Scroll, which can only be unsealed by Jesus, is where I also think the desolations which have been decreed (Dan 9:26) are stored until they go forth. I do compare the fire and blood elements of this desolation - which has been decreed - to the Day of the Lord's Wrath's "fire, blood, and smoke" in the OT which befalls (natural, national) Israel.

This is fallacious on its face; like I said, anyone can say anything on a board like this.

This means that and that means this. Anyone can say anything on a board like this. Now what does the Bible say? God revealed through Jesus to John that this happens with opening of the sixth Seal. Jesus said this happens before the sign of the Son of Man comes in the Olivet Discourse. Likewise, after the sun/moon/star sign, Jesus revealed to John that the sky will scroll back. I take those last two bullet points to be the same thing: the sign of the Son of Man is having the night sky scroll back. Then Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse that the Elect would be gathered up. To say certain celestial signs which PRECEDE the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:31) is not a single event, but carry onward into the Trumpet Judgments - is to just make a statement totally devoid of evidence in Scripture and allow, only by the scarcest link by a similarity to wording totally devoid of context, can such charlatans spin a web encompassing an entirely different interpretation which is found by a normal, literal reading.

False test. This is like saying there is no image or Scripture saying there is a Trinity. While the Great Multitude is in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17, all of sudden, a few people say, without any real evidence in Scripture, of the same caliber they demand of their opponents - which pointedly says what they want to push that: Christians live in Jerusalem on earth, during the Millennium as our afterlife. And unless you embrace Replacement Theology, and substitute the Church for every instance God spoke to the Hebrew nation through the Old Testament Prophets, you can't find a salient and critical verse which says that we are to give an account of ourselves to God on the future earth during the Millennium, and receive one or more of the seven different "crowns" found in the New Testament which can accrue to those who believe in Jesus in this physical plane of existence ~ which is only one we know... now.

Ah, actually... NO. While like the seven Churches which all start at the time of the writing of John's visions have a future promise, we see here the blessed hope we will have in the accomplishment of our faith when we come into our inheritance - which as a treasure, is stored in Heaven. Furthermore, the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13) lays down the broad overview of the end-times. The whole point of the Seals is to open the Scroll. Rev 5:9 - “Worthy are You to take the Scroll and to break its seals;” They are described in the order they are opened. The whole point of opening them is to open the Scroll. And may I offer this explanation of the Scroll: They are where the desolations that God has decreed long ago (Dan 9:26) are stored until the end-time of Man's Age of Rule. The sixth Seal includes the precursor sign of the Day of the Lord: the sun/moon/star celestial sign. When the last Seal is opened, silence ensues. Then the Trumpet Judgments go forth - and the first one has two of the three elements of the Day of the Lord's Wrath: fire and blood. And the one 'seven' is not complete until the desolations are poured out on the 'desolator'. In a companion linear narrative to the broad overview of the Seal/Scroll chronology, is the detailed parallel account of just the one 'seven': Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive). Chapter 13 begins by describing the first half of the one 'seven' with the rise of the beast-of-a-nation, the beast-of-a-man, and the false prophet. Chapter 13 then describes the midpoint abomination of Daniel 9:27, revealing it to be talking image of the anti-Christ = beast-of-a-man. Chapter 13 ends with the revelation of the reason for the Great Tribulation and why it must be shortened to save the Elect from extermination. Chapter 14 shows God's Response - on the Day of the Lord. It starts with Jesus on the earth just as was foretold in Acts 1:11 and the 144,000 - the firstfruits coming before the Great Multitude with the sixth Seal. Then it reveals the 3 Angels - which is why the wicked of the sixth Seal "know" God is coming for them... just not at that exact moment though. Then after the Great Commission is fulfilled, as Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse - there is the Harvest from the clouds (Mt 24:31; 1Th 4:17). THEN after the Rapture Harvest are an Angels who supplies the blood, at the direction of the Angel who is in charge of the fire - just like the first Trumpet. The seventh Trumpet's desolation is never told in chapters 4-11. I put it to you that it is revealed in the Bowls as showing the depth of God's Wrath! The ending of the second half of the one 'seven' is laid out in chapter 16 bringing the timeline up to the final battle which ends the one 'seven'. The whole point here is to show the similarity between Rev 14:17-20 and Rev 8:7 - and that the Harvest of the Elect happens after the midpoint abomination, after the Great Tribulation, but well before the ending Bowl Judgments. In accordance with the parable of the Wheat and the Tares, the wheat is taken out to the barn of Heaven, and the tares are burned in the field of this world. The scene that the Great Multitude are in, is the same as John first described Revelation chapters 4-5. They are not on the earth; the Father's Throne is in Heaven. That is the third Heaven of His Presence - where Jesus said He would take us when He returned.

Excuse me, but Revelation 7:9-17 is in Heaven, which is not up in the air, or in outer space, but a different plane of existence altogether. It is supernatural because it is beyond the "natural" four dimensions of our existence now. Zechariah 14 is for the Jews.

You, "Wailing Wall" are substituting the Church for Israel in Jeremiah. There is only one Bride at the wedding supper of the Lamb; it will be comprised of both Jew and Gentile. But you confuse the covenant relationship which God entered into with Israel, the unbelieving, unrepentant, stiff-necked, Hebrew nation, which is why, in a progressive dispensational model, that there even is a Millennium. It's so that He can bring His Sheep back to the fold - with an iron rod.

Nope? I agree that the "Day of the Lord" is after the Great Tribulation IAW Jesus' prophecy in the Olivet Discourse. (The Great Tribulation is not a "period" like the one 'seven' is a period of time.) I agree that the "sun/moon/star" event happens before the Day of the Lord IAW Joel 2:30. However, we are not "going" to Jerusalem when Jesus assaults Jerusalem on the Day of the Lord's Wrath against the unrepentant Jews in Jerusalem. That is a conclusion entirely of your own making. What I am saying is that AFTER the sun/moon/star event that 1. We are gathered IAW Mt 24:31 and 2. We appear in Heaven IAW Rev 7:9-17. THUS: Both events happen AFTER the sun/moon/star event and ON the Day of the Lord. The Wrath of God happens AFTER the Harvest of Rev 14:14-16 with the first Trumpet of Rev 8 as detailed in Rev 14:17-20. That's where Joel 2:32 comes into play as describing that attack. If you want to see where Jesus goes after the 144,000 break into the city, like a thief, read Ezekiel 9. (P.S. IAW is military lingo for "in accordance with")

And that is your belief, now where does it say that in Scripture - specifically?

The Church does not begin until the First Trumpet of the Festival of Firstfruits: Pentecost. The Church (Age) does not end until the Last Trumpet of the Festival of Rosh ha-Shannah, the Returning Anew of the Hebrew calendar. What you have is a non-sequitur. What exactly is your point, and what does this have to do with the timing of the Rapture? The Disciples of Jesus are the nexus of the Church, and as the Holy Spirit cleanses them on Pentecost, they are the Firstfruits of the Church.