Marcus O'Reillius

I like this signage I saw in front of the Otterbein United Methodist Church in downtown York, PA. In Isaiah 49:6, one of my favorite passages, the Father charges the Son with this assignment" 6 He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth." So while Jesus does not walk beyond the bounds of Israel in compliance with His Statement that: "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He also heals the Samarian woman's daughter - and in the feeding of the 4000, picking up 7 baskets of crumbs is indicative of the Gentile nations in the Land of Israel as contrasted to the feeding of the 5000 and picking up 12 baskets is indicative of the twelve tribes of Israel. ------------------------------------------------------ So then I am left with your conditional statement: IF this was for the Church THEN the offer of the Kingdom was not a legitimate one. I fail to see how one negates the other when Jesus only sought the lost sheep of Israel, and so in doing so, made a legitimate offer to them. ALL the Discourses Jesus gave are to the Church and the Church UNITES Jew and Gentile. When He only goes to them, then how is the offer not legitimate? It is the same offer made to us. When the Jews reject His offer, as they did in His third year of Ministry, that was also in the Plan. God knew they would. And allowance is made in the Olivet Discourse for those in Judea to find their way into His Grace in the Millennium. In sending out Paul later, specifically to Asia Minor rather than India, and with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Antiocch, hadn't Jesus fulfilled God's charge to Him made long before His FIrst Advent to also make Him a Light to the nations? And when He only went through Israel, weren't both were satisfied?

Okay... As the fifth Discourse, and Jesus' Disourses are the central structure of the Gospel of Matthew and they are for the Church in one through four, and as Jesus is not addressing the Jewish leaders who turned down His Offer of Salvation but some of the Apostles who form the nexus of the Church - - And as "Elect" - eklektos - as used in the New Testament, when referring to a body of people, is always synonymous with the Church - (see below) - -- Therefore, I reject the notion that the Olivet Discourse was only speaking concerning Israel during the end-times. In fact, the whole point of the Olivet Discourse was to answer the Apostle's central question - "...and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" Notice Jesus never answered their first question concerning the Temple. If your point-of-view was actually evident, I'd think Jesus would have spent the whole discourse explaining the first Jewish Revolt. _____________________________________ So, with the exception of the relevant Olivet Discourse end-time passages in question, the NIV passages for just eklektos in the NT are presented here for analysis. The NASB translation is shown in parentheses for comparison. Chosen: MT 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen." (chosen) LK 18: 7 And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? (elect) LK 23:35 …if he is the Christ of God, the Chosen One" (Chosen One) ROM 8:33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? (elect) RO 16:13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, (choice man) COL 3:12 Therefore, as God's chosen people (chosen) 1PE 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God (choice and precious in the sight of) 1PE 2:6 "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, (choice stone) 1PE 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, (chosen) 2JN 1:1 To the chosen lady and her children, (chosen) 2JN 1:13 The children of your chosen sister send their greetings (chosen) REV 17:14 -and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers." (chosen) Elect: 1TI 5:21 Christ Jesus and the elect angels, (chosen) 2TI 2:10 for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, (chosen) 1PE 1:1 To God's elect, strangers in the world, (chosen) First of all, eklektos is used for aspects of God. Jesus is described as eklektos in Luke and 1st Peter and that word is repeated in quoting OT Scripture. God’s angels are correspondingly called eklektos in Paul’s first letter to Timothy. So like Saint, this word conveyed upon the believer also describes Jesus and other Heavenly beings. Likewise too, when so many question their salvation because of sin in their life, it is difficult for the average lay Christian to take title to as being chosen by God over unrepentant sinners. The second aspect to be gleamed here by this compilation of verses is that those that believe in God are choice rendered as a noun or adjective. The first reading of Matthew 22:14 seems to point that God does the choosing. That would imply the definition of chosen as a verb. If Matthew had wanted to indicate that, then he would have been used the verb eklegomai. However, the word here is eklektos which is a noun or an adjective, not a verb. To say Saints are chosen must understand that chosen is also a noun in the English. This then describes Saints as being ‘the selection’ of God as chosen is defined in the English as a noun. This conforms to Bromiley’s definition of the Greek word in translation as well.

How do you reconcile your listing of the Rapture before the Great Tribulation when the order in the Olivet Discourse is like this? v. 15 Midpoint Abomination, which adds: standing in the “Holy Place” v. 21 Great Tribulation, which is shortened by the: v. 29 Sun/moon/star event, which heralds the Day of the Lord v. 30 Sign of the Son of Man v. 30 The Son of Man coming on the clouds v. 31 Gathering Elect from the clouds

I count Revelation 11:15-19 as one of four times the "end" of the one 'seven' is presented in the book of Revelation with its parallel accounts. So in a way, it does bring about the establishment of the Millennium Kingdom, however, I also count two periods of time as a buffer between the one 'seven' and the Millennium: the 30 and 45 day periods of Daniel 12. That goes back to Acts 1:11, Revelation 14:1 and Zechariah 14:4. As a fact, Angels tell the Apostles that Jesus: "...will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." As He left from the Mount of Olives, so coming back to that spot would fulfill this prophecy literally and quite exactly. In Revelation 14:1, Jesus is standing on "Mount Zion" with the same 144,000 as is in the sixth Seal. Now as Mount Zion has no present address, and some will take this figuratively, I can take a literal approach and legitimately within that construct, see Mount Zion as the newly renamed, split Mount of Olives. And this is because in Zechariah 14:4, Jesus splits the Mount of Olives as He touches down upon them. This splitting would be the second earthquake of the sixth Seal too. This event also has applicability for the Remnant Jews who flee Jerusalem before the battle fought there on the Day of the Lord. They would join the Jews from Judah who fled at the previous (months? weeks?) midpoint of the one 'seven' when the anti-Christ surrounded Jerusalem from his rapid invasion from the North. Now as I connect all three to the same time and event, I notice that in the linear account of Revelation chapter 14, Jesus has touched down before He performs the gathering of the Elect from the clouds (Mt 24:31) in Rev 14:14-16. So, in order to not violate the order, I do put Jesus as Returning and touching down on the earth BEFORE the Rapture, when He is viewed by those living far away from Jerusalem as only coming on the clouds with the Saints (1Th 3:13) He has resurrected from their resting place in Paradise.

Well, I'd like to know the source of our divergence. It's pretty easy to guess with a name of Last Daze that you're either into eschatology, or an adherent of the "Last Day" vis-a-vis classical Post-Trib eschatology, albeit with a little humor (days / daze / dazed). I'd like you to elaborate on this statement so I make sure I understand what you're saying and that I don't take it the wrong way. As a point of reference, I see chapters 4 and 5 as setting the stage for the central theme of the broad overview of the "end-times" which leads to the chronological revelation of the Seals and the Trumpets in its successive chapters until a break in the action beginning in chapter 10. This in turn, leads to what I call a Sidebar Account of the Temple and the Two Witness in Rev 11:1-13. I then see the original theme reasserting itself as John literally goes back to the previous second Woe and introduces but then quickly sums up the third Woe / 7th Trumpet. The quickness of chapter 11's conclusion is due to his obedience not reveal anything the seven thunders say. He also omits what the strong Angel said when he cried out that precipitated their cry. So I talk about the broad overview of the book of Revelation's Seal/Scroll account of Revelation chapters 4-11, exclusive of 11:1-13. I'd tend to agree. I look at detailed account of the one 'seven' in Revelation chapters 13-16 as being parallel the broad overview, covering the end in a smaller time frame. (I think the four horsemen precede the one 'seven' in in linear time; indeed, the first may have let loose 150 years ago or more.) I look at the twin parallel accounts of chapter 12 with the Woman and the Serpent as representing two longer periods of time, but very much in sync with each other. I think that beginning in chapter 19, we get the Epilogue of the end, starting right before the end of the one 'seven' and going well past that with the Millennium and beyond. I view chapters 17 and 18 as explanatory in nature and not indicative of a major linear narrative covering a distinct period of time.

For some reason, I could not do anything with that quote, not even comment on it, so in order to reset the programming on this message board, I had to post it just to get rid of it. I can't even edit it. Weird.

I am not out to derail a thread and smash other people's heartfelt thinking and beliefs. I will argue until the cows come home on points of interpretation and what is in Scripture. And here, I have started a thread on my way of thinking so as to share it with others, take actual criticism which seeks to eliminate errors I may have overlooked, and to take in other's viewpoints so I don't miss something. You know, a few years ago, a real nut of a poster actually pointed out Isaiah 63:1-6 to me. I had totally overlooked it, but now look at it as Jesus' return to Heaven from the Day of the Lord. Arguing with him actually produced a nugget of insight. But what inchrist has put forth has no real worth from an eschatological view. I have already written about the parallels between Jesus' first and second Advents and our place as the Bride to the first century Jewish wedding process. I have written on the 7 Churches, and the varied ways their message can be applied not only to Christian living, but as church-types, and even a timeline of the Church. However, inchrist's leap from one to another and blasting that over and over again, as if by repetition he'll make a point - all while not even bothering to read the central topic to this thread - seems to me to indicate a person who is not serious about this topic and only posts so as to take it off topic and hijack the entire thread.

Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man Jesus touches down on Mount Zion Mustering the 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked Martyr's deeds will be remembered (Two Witnesses left behind) Last Trumpet call Dead in Christ resurrected Son of Man coming on the clouds with those Saints Deliverance = Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the clouds Those who are alive and are left gathered up Great Multitude arrives in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation Books / Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal First Trumpet fire and blood – 1/3rd of earth burned Avenging Angels – supplying Blood and managing the Fire You know buddy, if you were at all serious, you'd have read how I put this all together to get to this point. But you're not serious. In fact, I don't think you're a serious scholar at all. Especially the more you go on and on about mixing up parables and the Churches. To me, it's nonsensical. It is also not on topic. You're not here to learn from anyone else, to learn how they construct their eschatology, the reasons for they way they assemble their thinking, or even finding out where you and they diverge so as to look anew at the decisions you've made in forming your own view of end-time prophecy. You are here for one reason and one reason only: to destroy any evidence supporting an eschatology you personally don't like.

Finally, something that is actually on topic! An omission of an fact is not a commission of an error in the time and culture with which the Bible was written. That is solely a facet of our technical, literal time and culture where we want the facts, just the facts, and all the facts, and to leave something out is a violation of the law. Here is a new chart I just made up to compare the events given in the Olivet Discourse to the sixth Seal of Revelation, with some additional material showing the sequencing from Revelation chapter 14 and a verse from Paul from Thessalonians. OLIVET DISCOURSE REVELATION’s 6th SEAL COMBINED Mt 24:29 – sun/moon/star Rev 6:12-13 sun/moon/star Sun/moon/star event. Mt 24:30 – Sign of the Son of Man Rev 6:14 – scrolling of the sky Jesus’ Parousia equating the two: Sign = Scrolling sky. No mention – not germane to the Church at this point. Rev 7:1-8 – the 144,000 Mustering the 144,000 happens before coming on the clouds and the Harvest in Rev ch 14. Mt 24:30 – coming on the clouds No mention in the sixth Seal. However - (Rev 14:15 – on the clouds before the “Harvest”) + (1Th 3:13 comes after the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ.) Coming on the clouds with the resurrected Dead in Christ = all those in the Book from Sheol. Mt 24:31 – gathering the Elect No mention in the sixth Seal. However, this is the Harvest of Rev 14:16 The Rapture. Nothing else sequenced – the Church’s role in the world ceases. Rev 7:9:17 – the Great Mulitude The delivery of the Dead in Christ and the gathering of the remaining Elect. It is not speculation. The two accounts sync at the sun/moon/star event. What follows can be logically blended - and this is buttressed, or confirmed, by additional linear narrative in the detailed, parallel account of the one 'seven' found in Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive). So the arrival of the Great Multitude, absent during John's reporting of all he sees in the Temple of God (with its altar and throne - mercy seat) in chapters 4 and 5, is the natural result of the Harvest of Revelation chapter 14 and the gathering of the Elect who are still alive and remain from 1Th 4:17, who are preceded by the calling of the Dead in Christ (John 5:25) with the "Last Trumpet" of 1Co 15:51. Now I would like to make an announcement: I have found an error in my sequence! This is great! This is why I do this, showing my work and explaining it. I have put the Dead in Christ after the Coming on the Clouds. As 1Th 3:13 - which is an observer true verse - and 1Th 4:17 sequence: when Jesus comes on the clouds, He already HAS resurrected the Dead in Christ. I am going to have to change some word documents (I have this paper on three different ones) to reflect the correct sequence, which will have the Day of the Lord events look like this: Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man Jesus touches down on Mount Zion Mustering the 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked Martyr's deeds will be remembered (Two Witnesses left behind) Last Trumpet call Dead in Christ resurrected Son of Man coming on the clouds with those Saints Deliverance = Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the clouds Those who are alive and are left gathered up Great Multitude arrives in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation Books / Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal First Trumpet fire and blood – 1/3rd of earth burned Avenging Angels – supplying Blood and managing the Fire Before Jesus comes on the clouds with the Saints, by necessity, He will have to have resurrected all those in the Book who dwell in Paradise as per John 5:25. I will try to edit what I already have produced here to reflect that if I can. If not, I will include this correction in any subsequent presentation.

More rebuttal... Your first assumption is that the seven times they encircle Jericho on the seventh day equates to the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath. Seven is the number of completion, and in Jericho, it is God who gives the town to the Hebrews. Your second assumption is that this is a archetype for the rapture. Instead, Jesus gives us the examples of Noah and Lot, who were both delivered to safety before God's Wrath came. God did not save the harlot, but Joshua honored the covenant the spies had made. They could not whisk her out beforehand because of the walls. Jericho is not a prophetic example of the end-times; it is a historical fact upon which we can build faith that God can overcome any obstacle man puts up against His people.

No, your assumption is that they are the first. Rather, they are the last because they complete the number of fifth Seal martyrs and they come after the Rapture which happened on the previous Day of the Lord's sixth Seal - which in sequence fashion - comes before all the Wrath of God contained in the Scroll which goes forth with the Trumpets. From Revelation and what I posted is this sequence which Jesus gives John. Rev 6:12-13 - Sun/moon/star sign Rev 6:14 - Scrolling of the sky Rev 7:4-8 - “Mustering” the 144,000 Rev 7:9-17 - Great Multitude arrives in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation Rev 8:1 - Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal Rev 8:7 - First Trumpet fire and blood 1/3 of earth burned Rev 8:8 - Second Trumpet 1/3 of sea to blood Rev 8:10 - Third Trumpet 1/3 of water bitter Rev 8:12 - Fourth Trumpet 1/3 of light struck Rev 9:1-11 - Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment Rev 9:13-21 - Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3 of man killed Rev 10:1-4/Rev 11:15 - Seventh Trumpet (no desolation mentioned) Rev 11:19 - Earthquake

Another criticism which does not address the subject at hand - the sequencing of events; is from inchrist's own peculiar brand of thinking. The parable of the TEN virgins, split five and five is somehow changed by inchrist to five and two, and applied here. I don't think this application of that parable is correct at all. The parable of the ten virgins; five who are wise, and five who are foolish, certainly has an end-time application, but it demonstrates on both (or either as you like) a figurative and literal manner the necessity of keeping the faith (oil - figurative) right up to the end and not failing (buying oil = taking the mark of the beast - literal). Now as to Rev 3:10, here is a study I did: Revelation 3:10’s Protection Clause for the Church One verse in the account of the Churches stands as a pivotal point in two different eschatological theories: Revelation 3:10. This verse promises to “keep” the PhiladelphiaChurch “from the hour of trial” that is to come. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture position uses this verse to show the Church is removed from the world before the Tribulation Period which is equated to the entire seven years of the seventieth ‘seven.’ Meanwhile the Post-Tribulation Rapture position considers this same verse as showing how the Church can considered to be protected through the same seven year period and so endure the events enumerated within the book of Revelation. These of course are conflicting and mutually exclusive claims. REV 3:10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. To start the analysis, asking the five basic questions that were laid out in the premise, the first two questions have already been addressed. The speaker is identified as like a Son of Man and ostensibly is Christ Jesus. It is interesting that John, who had a personal relationship with Jesus, does not identify Him succinctly in that regard, but from the text, being the first and the last John leaves no other interpretation possible. The audience is the Christian, who has an ear to ear what the Spirit says to the Churches. Neither answer materially affects how the interpretation of the verse can be made. Next the context of verse 3:10 must be taken within the whole of chapters two and three. The Church of Philadelphia is but one of seven parts of the whole Church. To each Church there are words of admonishment and encouragement, and a future promise. Of all the Churches, only the Church of Smyrna and Philadelphia can be said to be positive and conversely the Church of Sardis and Laodicea are largely negative. But all the Churches have a future promise and those that overcome will come from all seven. This verse then does not represent all the Church, but only one part of it. All the other Churches ostensibly go through this hour of trial, and the Church of Smyrna will be tested, and will suffer persecution for ten days, figuratively speaking, a greater time than the hour of trial. So to split out the Church of Philadelphia as representative of the whole is to selectively use a Bible verse to support a prior position rather than letting the Bible speak and fitting what it says into a systematic whole. Within the customs and the culture of the time, the use of hour is not to be taken literally, but as a subjective use of time, does indicate a shorter timeframe. Hour also describes the last night and day of Jesus before the crucifixion in the Gospel accounts and as a figure of speech means for a time, but not necessarily an hour. The fixation on time is a Western convention, and nothing within the first century culture would place such a restrictive interpretation as that, but rather this time will be short. The word study has quite a bit that can be made theologically from the expression keep from. Most of the commentaries stress the aspect of separateness found in concept from the word translated as from. The only other place where these two words are used together is in John 17:15. It is also noteworthy that both the verse in question and the only other instances of these words together are penned by John in Greek. JN 17:15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. To put this into context with the overall sequence of events timeline, Satan has possession of the world and previously offered it to Jesus at the start of His ministry, but now Christ has invaded his domain. Now at the end, Jesus is physically leaving the world, and prays not for a physical separation from the world for the apostles but a sense of protection against Satan who is in the world with them, indeed, he will soon be thrown out of Heaven after Jesus’ Ascension and be relegated to the earth only knowing his time is short. ἐκ is used twice in this prayer of Jesus. When ἐκ is used with take as it is with the first part, it does convey movement, but in the second case when used with protect; tereo ek is translated as “protect them from” and conveys no movement whatsoever. That is the prayer of Jesus for His sheep. The same word for keep in Revelation 3:10, tereo, is translated as protect and in this instance and ek is from the evil one, Satan. The difficulty arises when ἐκ which means out from within is applied in a literal sense to the passage in Revelation 3:10 as the primary basis for the action which is described. In one sense it can convey movement. In another sense it can mean ‘protection from.’ The second sense is used in the Pre-Tribulation position espoused by Dr. Paul D. Feinberg when the verb and the preposition are used in context of the Church and seventieth ‘seven.’ His position is based in part on the example of John 17:15 where it is “understood as preservation in a position outside the preposition’s object.”—Three views on the Rapture p.67. He states this condition describes a consequence of the Rapture. Rather than being protected through the time of testing, this Church is protected away from that time. Dr. Feinberg concludes that “Revelation 3:10 does not set the church within the hour. Thus, its deliverance could be an exemption from the period of time.”—ibid p.70 (emphasis in original) Conversely, Dr. Douglas J. Moo makes the case for a Post-Tribulation Rapture by interpreting Revelation 3:10 by noting “spiritual preservation is clearly intended”—ibid p. 198 (emphasis in original). He translates ek as out of and compares it to John 17:15 too but concludes with it as separation. He argues against a physical removal, but shies away from stating this verse as a lynch pin for his position by stating it “neither offers a clear-cut evidence for or against a posttribulational Rapture.”—ibid p. 198 As with the nuances of meaning that can be derived as Drs. Feinberg and Moo have shown, there are other ways in which this interplay of keep from can be thought to be true. In a Historical context, where the far term sense is emphasized with the Churches describing various Church ages, the Philadelphia Church is kept out of the Tribulation Period as commonly referred, meaning the entire seventieth ‘seven,’ by having its existence end before the commencement of that time with the “covenant with many.” This interpretation has the idea of ek as one of separation, which is allowable. In the other sense where all the Churches are part of a whole, emphasizing the unity of the Churches and the message to each radiating out, this Church is also separated, but in the sense that the use of whole world is not a complete domination, but describes the entire influence the Antichrist as being like Alexander who conquers all the earth, yet it is just a portion. This idea of domination over the area of influence around Jerusalem yet not being completely world-wide is supported in part by Daniel and Revelation where Kings of the East and South battle the Antichrist. So it could also be that the PhiladelphianChurch is not directly affected from the Antichrist because of a geographical separation. All the previous interpretations of keep from lead to different interpretations that cannot be settled because they focus on the preposition and gloss over the actual action. Conflicting views can infer it is either an 'exemption from' or 'protection during' which occurs by a single word ek. However, while some aspect of the word's usage will certainly be true, it need not necessarily be either extreme is true. Focusing on the primary preposition, ek or ex, leads to different suppositions because of the diversity in which this word is used. It is translated as from, and out of, but also has a much broader range of meanings in translation. In order to ascertain an interpretation how ek can be understood two parts must be considered: the verb and the object of the preposition. First, the primary focus for an alternative view for Revelation 3:10 lies in the word for keep is tereo, (here in the future tense, active voice and indicative mood). The basic definition of tereo relates to watching or viewing. The idea of guarding is inherent with the idea of ‘watching’ and the word translated as protect and keep, projects that guarding connotation, especially in the English. The translation of tereo may confer a ‘keeping’ or a ‘protecting’ but it is not an active defense, or even absolute. The basic meaning of the word is to “to keep in view,” “to note,” “to watch over”; it takes on such nuances as “to rule,” “to observe,” “to ward off,” “to guard,” “to keep,” and in a transferred sense “to see to,” “to apply oneself to,” “to defend oneself.” The word occurs 39 times in the LXX in such senses as “to aim at,” “to keep watch,” “to pay attention,” “to watch over or for,” “to keep,” “to observe.”—TDNT p. 1174-5 The unifying theme of tereo is to look after in the sense of guarding. In this sense it both acts to protect and keep safe, but not by physical barriers, but by keeping the object in view. In John 17:15 Jesus prays for God to ‘watch over’ His flock. The apostles certainly were looked after, but as an absolute, the sense of protection afforded by tereo did not prevent their eventual martyrdom by Rome. What ‘kept’ them was their faith which they did not give up so, their position as being God’s did not change. In that sense they did not become part of the evil one. That tereo would protect less than absolutely yet still maintain a position apart from Satan can be found theologically, as the Christian is not to fear him that can take his life, but Him that can take life and soul—MT 10:28. The greater goal to attain is the salvation of the soul rather than the preservation of the body. Secondly, while the idea of keeping or protecting is not as strong as would be suggested by the use of the words in English, the preposition asks the question: from what? Each rendition strives to define the clause as separation from distress or tribulation in the greater sense of the entire seven year period when the object of ek is the test. The two words are not synonymous in the Greek. Distress or tribulation derives from the word thlipsis. The hour of trial, comes from the word peirasmos, means testing or temptation and is the same word as used in Galatians 4:14 and 1Timothy 6:9.—TDNT p.822 Trials have consequences, as in these two examples, both positive and negative; as a test it divides on a pass/fail basis. While distress may lead to a situation involving a trial, the nature of the test is different than the conditions inducing it. Whereas a prolonged suffering may be a test of patience, passing the test does nothing to the situation that spawned it. Within in the context of the use of the word hour, this hour is a pinnacle for the Christian just as Jesus’ hour was the very reason He came. (JN 12:27) This would be the last test for the Christian and could come during a shortened time within the terrible time Jesus describes with the great distress, or tribulation. The parallel between Christ and the Church comes from John 15:18 –the relationship between the world and Christians is defined by the shared hatred the world feels for Christ being transferred to the Church. The test of the Church could be likened more to the final test given Jesus by Satan, and that is the matter of who will be worshipped. This is different than the distress they will face, general hardships, hatred by the world, and even up to the forfeiture of their life. As a command, worshipping God is foremost, and as a theme, the idolatrous rebellion of man stands as the greatest offence to God. As a first prerequisite, this portion of the Church is typified by the exercise of faith as evidenced by their work in following God’s commands. This follows Christ’s parable of the two sons in MT 21:28. God can put the Church to the test, and in this sense, to watch over them out from within this test attests to the surety they will pass it. To the individual, the lesson ought to be that God can save out of the greatest time of trouble when he does as God says. Looking at the promise afforded this Church during the hour of trial as compared to the other Churches, does not necessarily invoke a complete separation, or even the guarantee of physical safety. Just as Jesus prayed for God to protect His flock from the evil one did not prevent the apostles from being persecuted and killed, so there is no assurance for the Church of Philadelphia of complete separation from the test. The recipients of Jesus’ prayer faced death without giving up their faith though and in like fashion, this test of the object of one’s worship is not passed by saving one’s life in the physical world. Putting keep from the hour of trial in context with the end times, because they have kept His command to endure patiently, (a command that will be issued in context with the seventieth ‘seven’) He will watch out (for) them. Buttressed by His guardian aid, they will remain steadfast in that time of testing just like the apostles and will not give up their faith. Here is the ultimate test as was spoken by Jesus in all four Gospels of the dichotomy whereby seeking to save your life will lose it and whoever loses his life (for Jesus) will save it. Their resolute steadfastness results in an analogy; they will become ‘pillars’ of the temple, a figure of speech still in use in modern day language. So this becomes a promise, not just to that first century church, but all those in those times especially as it pertains to the general level of distress that will be shown during the end times and specifically for the great distress; to do as God commands: to endure patiently. The positions of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, the Post-Tribulation Rapture, the Historical model, and the circle model all can be afforded by some shade of interpretation of keep from as one of being separate. However, this emphasizes the meaning of the English words of keep or protects which are much stronger in connotation than the idea of watching over which what is written in the Greek. No matter how out from within or out of is used, the action promised is not total as is seen in the example of the Apostles and a similar wording in a prayer of Jesus’ and their eventual outcome. But as a consequence of the exercise of faith, by enduring patiently, God’s promise is to watch over them out from within that testing, or in simpler English, God will watch out for them. This could take several forms, a strengthening of the spirit, the granting of wisdom, or patience itself, but no matter the physical result, their ultimate destination is secure with God, He will not lose one of His own. While the PhiladelphianChurch can be likened to the missionary Church of the nineteenth century, within the context of the two chapters, it is still one of seven types of Churches. Other Churches or types of faith and their exercise are not similarly promised to escape this fate of testing, and the Church of Smyrna can even expect an extended period of persecution aside from this testing hour. So if the Church of Philadelphia is not ‘kept from’ the hour of testing as the English meaning leads the reader to believe, but endures patiently and passes the test successfully with the help of God, then even this Church will be a part of this time. Based on the meaning of the Greek verb tereo, the conclusion reached cannot support an absolute protection either by prior removal or even spiritual separation, but rather that this verse is a promise that God will watch out for those that endure patiently as He commands.

Another THIS MEANS THAT and THAT MEANS THIS interpretation made up of unrelated topics and connected only because there are the mentions of women in both, and of course, by the coincidence of number. Isa 3:18 In that day the Lord will take away the beauty of their anklets, headbands, crescent ornaments, 19 dangling earrings, bracelets, veils, 20 headdresses, ankle chains, sashes, perfume boxes, amulets, 21 finger rings, nose rings, 22 festal robes, outer tunics, cloaks, money purses, 23 hand mirrors, undergarments, turbans and veils. 24 Now it will come about that instead of sweet perfume there will be putrefaction; Instead of a belt, a rope; Instead of well- set hair, a plucked- out scalp; Instead of fine clothes, a donning of sackcloth; And branding instead of beauty. 25 Your men will fall by the sword And your mighty ones in battle. 26 And her gates will lament and mourn, And deserted she will sit on the ground. Isa 4:1 For seven women will take hold of one man in that day, saying, "We will eat our own bread and wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name; take away our reproach!" 2 In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel. 3 It will come about that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy—everyone who is recorded for life in Jerusalem. Rather than be demonstrative of the seven Churches where he wants a 5-2 split, all seven women are in the same boat: depicted as ravaged by war, captivity, and want. To me, this is more of a depiction of what it will be like for the Remnant Jews who stick it out in Jerusalem and elsewhere around the world. Their men are gone, victims of God's Wrath in its many forms of desolation, and they too have suffered terribly. It will be the Lord who takes all their finery and beauty away. In that day: a declaration of "it will be." There will be a day. Not necessarily the same day. Zechariah uses this exclamation in prophesying as well to state something will happen. Isa 4:1 is then a conclusion to the poetic section immediately before it - Isaiah did not insert this chapter and verse to separate the two. That was done centuries later, and a few centuries ago. While the book of Isaiah overwhelmingly is not set in linear, chronological fashion - a 1-2 process might be a correct interpretation here. After the devastation wrought by the desolations God has decree through His Wrath, there is an ingathering and encampment for the survivors, who probably fare little better than the people depicted here. Zechariah 8:23 also references this type of action. The Remnant Jews and the few remaining "Meek" who do survive the one 'seven' gather at Mount Zion under a (temporary) shelter - which is the fulfillment of the Sukkot, or the Festival of Tents. However, inchrist's criticism here, like so much of what he puts out, is a non-sequitur, and a red herring. It is the result of his own illogical connections devoid of specific language and context, but equated nonetheless in his own peculiar way of thinking. I do not use Isaiah for the basic framework of building an eschatology because of its general lack of linear narrative, but he does provide essential verse and passages with which to flesh out the bone-work structure derived from the major works I cited before and have compiled here.

Negative Ghostrider. Jesus defines the Great Tribulation as a specific and unique event, never having been done before and never to be done again afterward - which BEGINS at the midpoint abomination and ENDS with the sun/moon/star sign, and, I'll add from my study of Revelation 14; three Angels who complete the Gospel and warn the wicked of their impending doom so that "all" mourn. (And that is "all" as in the Hebrew sense of that which is applicable, and for the most part, and not our technical 100% definition in our present time, culture, and language.) So the Great Tribulation is not the past persecutions the Church endured, and it will be more severe than the Holocaust.

These are all non-sequiturs - they literally do not follow, anything - not even each other. The Temple, in which the Great Multitude appear, has nothing to do with the timing of the named, Last Trumpet blown by God to assemble His people - and the numbered Trumpets blown by Angels to announce another measure of His Wrath. There is nothing about the host of Angels participating in the Harvest who follow the Groom in the wedding analogy as Jesus commands them - which has anything to do with whether or not the Last Trumpet is the same as the seventh Trumpet. And in a completely erroneous fashion, a wholly made-up bit of fiction ricocheting inside a person's head that escaped, has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the Last Trumpet is the same as the seventh Trumpet.

THIS MEANS THAT and THAT MEANS THIS. This is the fallacy in argument on several different levels. Fundamentally, its purpose is to allow the debater to completely change word and passage meaning. It's all so very simple. One just says: "this is that," and voila! It is! No real proof, just a compilation of fallacies not logically connected.

Taking "begging the question" to new lows... Never mind that the five foolish virgins, nor the five wise virgins (not the foolish or wise virgin singular) have any place in the book of Revelation nor are they germane to topic at hand at all: the Festivals also have no expounded role in the end-time narratives in the text - they simply are not cited either. Now it is an assumption of some that the Festivals play no part in the end-times whatsoever, however, they can be shown to have in general, the same sequence order as Pre-Wrath where the Church is called home with the Last Trumpet of Rosh ha-Shannah; God's Wrath follows weeding out the tares; and then the Atonement between Jesus and the Remnant Jews follows. But the whole subject comparison of the Day of the Lord to Rosh ha-Shannah, while legitimate in its own right; has no place in this discussion of the Trumpets setting the Last Trumpet apart from the seventh Trumpet by the Word in Scripture.

How to form an inaccurate, incomplete, and totally wrong connection in Scripture: the word test. Take one word and connect dots that aren't even on the paper! So we go from a pregnant woman to ten virgins ...because - they're both women! Never mind that one is married and used in analogy for pain and suffering, and the others have both figurative and literal applications from a parable about faithfulness. These two subjects are about as connected as dried fruit and the atmosphere of Mars are connected by their lack of moisture. But! If you "see" how they are the same.. Well! It's off to the races we go - jump down the rabbit hole. And again, although inchrist doesn't get it, this has nothing to do with the Scriptural proof offered in the OP.

The Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation: fact - not assumption. The Sun/moon/star sign precedes both the gathering of the Elect and the arrival of the Great Multitude: fact. Ah, you say it's not spelled out for you? Didn't you just say there are no coincidences in Scripture? I'll post some more from my chapter on putting prophecy in its sequence-of-events order with another account about the end-times tommorow. Tonight, I'm in Portland, Oregon, and I'm goin out to meet my co-worker at the barbecue place nearby.

Red herring there buddy-ro. I'm not quite sure you can understand this. 1.) 1Co 15:51-52. Paul connects the Last Trumpet to the Rapture. 2.) 2Th 4:16-17. Previously to that in another letter to the Thessalonians, he connects the Rapture to Jesus' coming on the clouds. 3.) Mt 24:29-31. Jesus sequences the sun/moon/star event, the same coming on the clouds, and the gathering of the Elect, i.e., the Rapture. 4.) Rev 6:12-14. Jesus reveals to John that the sixth Seal unleashes the Day of the Lord's sun/moon/star event - followed by the arrival of the Great Multitude in Heaven, who come out of the very same Great Tribulation which is ended by Jesus' parousia. The proof then, is that the Last Trumpet of God, calling us home, comes before any of the numbered Trumpets blown by Angels announcing God's Wrath. That is the topic. The topic is not your weird combination of the Returning Anew, the marriage ceremony, and a parable about the ten virgins. Let me tell you this: I DO NOT HAVE TO PLAY IN YOUR SANDBOX IN ORDER TO MAKE MY POINT. I DO NOT HAVE TO LINK YOUR VARIOUS ASPECTS WHICH HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TOPIC AT HAND - WHICH IS A SCRIPTURAL LINKAGE SHOWING THE "LAST TRUMPET" CALLING US HOME IS NOT THE 7th TRUMPET OF GOD'S WRATH. Now you say you aren't interested in what I think is important. I say not only aren't you interested in talking about the things I bring to the table, you are only interested in making a mockery of anything that goes against your eschatology and are attempting to tear it down and destroy it. Sorry Charlie, you keep coming up short on that account, and I keep picking your posts apart because they have so much error in them that there's plenty to point out. Jump down the rabbit hole with you and hug your tar baby just so you will be "pleasant" with me? HA! Do you really think you can make me do anything on the basis that I want pleasantry from a person who seeks to destroy? Can you really be serious with this veiled threat of blackmail? "Pay me the honor of discussing my off-topic, unrelated things so your thread melts away, or I won't be pleasant to you." Shirley, you can't be serious.

Eschatology is not for beginners. It is not simple. It does take intellect to be able to "know and understand" as Gabriel put it to Daniel. I was drawing an analogy to Scripture. Thanks.

You need everything spelled out? Never does the Bible say the Great Multitude is the result of the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ and the Rapture of those who are alive and remain. As Paul taught that the Day of the Lord brought both the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ first, and then those will be alive and remain join them, and as, Jesus taught the Day of the Lord happens right after the Great Tribulation (and indeed, Jesus' arrival puts an end to that persecution); therefore, having just such a Great Multitude, from every walk of life ever, show up having done as we do - washing our sin away by Jesus' Atoning Sacrifice - and - to have them come out of the very time period Jesus said immediately precedes the very Day of the Lord shown to happen with the sixth Seal --- means these people ARE the Dead in Christ and the Elect. At the time of the sixth Seal, the fifth Seal martrys are still under their glass ceiling awaiting the end of the one 'seven' and the final addition of their number: the Two Witnesses. (By the way, gentle reader, have you too ever wondered where everyone got their palm frond? I mean, there are a great many palm fronds too!)

There is a verse in Isaiah which mentions the scrolling of the sky, but you beg the question because there is no direct equation between the two. Since between the sun/moon/star event and the gathering of the Elect in the Olivet Discourse is the Sign of the Son of Man, and since between the sun/moon/star event and the arrival of the Great Multitude in Heaven is the scrolling of the sky with the sixth Seal of Revelation; I equate the two as one and the same - in my opinion. I have to allow for an alternate scenario though: that the Scrolling of the Sky reveals the Sign, or vision, of Jesus coming down from Heaven.

Jewish tradition is not God's Word. According to Scripture, the rainbow is NOT the sign of the coming Messiah. Genesis 9:13 (NKJV) 13 "I set My rainbow in the cloud, and it shall be for the sign of the covenant between Me and the earth.