3 minutes ago, GandalfTheWise said:

I address this simply for people reading this thread who don't have the Greek background to evaluate this.   The idea that a particular dialect of ancient Greek was the most precise on the planet is not generally believed by Greek scholars.  Greek and English both have concepts for believing what someone says, trusting them, having confidence in them, and having faith in them.  The particular use of nouns, verbs, and participles can vary but the concepts carry over. To imply Greek cannot express the concept of believe, believer, and believing is not accurate.  I'll further comment that few (if any) Christian scholars take Vine's dictionary seriously as a sole basis for translation work.  Vine's is a great resource for the layman, but it is a summary and overview of the more complete and nuanced lexicons and references used by translators.  

I had been going to engage on this thread, but I found this 100+ page thread on another forum directly about this topic.   http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116722-quot-PISTEUO-quot-the-secret-of-the-universe   The poster there seemed to have similar viewpoints and a similar approach to things as is happening in this thread. 

Here are some comments from the main poster of that thread:

post 984: I don't discuss Scripture until i'm sure the one i'm talking with is "in Christ".

post 981:  Because "in Christ" i judge all things and am under no mans judgement . What that means is , because i have the Spirit of Christ in me and i am in Him , anything i see or hear is automatically discerned not by me but the Spirit in me . It's not even something that is under the control of someone in this state .  Now , that is specifically a temporary judgement "NOT" an eternal judgement . That is why i always end my statements with the word "yet". 
Because you do not know the correct way to Faithe into Christ , you more than likely can't have His Spirit "yet". Temporary , something that can be changed if you can find a way to humble yourself , instead of trying to kill the messenger . The Spirit of Christ can be put into a faither without them knowing they are fulfilling pisteuo correctly , i'm one of those . Because i've already told you the truth about pisteuo , it will probably be more difficult in some ways , but easier in others . But your so pissed at me , i think you'll probably just self destruct .  I'm making an extra effort with you here , a watchman should always do that . 

post 41:  Would I be wasting our time to try and persuade you? Not using Scripture to go back and forth, we haven't even established that either of us has the Spirit of Christ, that would make Gods Word ours to talk about.

post 50 seems to give a clear explanation of that poster's view on salvation.  

post 67:  With that said, you are completely right! Having a Salvation experience can't be taught. It happened to me by accident, at least from my perspective. And I've tried to find others that are in the same state of being as I was, and just give them the same thing I was given, but I've never seen the same result. After 25 years of that, I now simply try and shine a light on the true meaning of one word, Pisteuo! Maybe that's even to much, but I simply just can't do nothing. I've heard it said, that the hardest thing to do in Christ, is to do nothing and just be in awe of Him, "the better part".  Anyway, you should know, I don't highlight this word as if were all in Christ. I highlight this word outside of Christ as people are being drawn by the Father. The reason being that most drawn out ones I think, feel the drawing of the Father and say, "i'm here", "and this is where I'm going to make my stand with Christ." But Christ and His Word are not for those who are still in the drawing stage. What solidifies this stand their making, is the mistranslated word, " believe". So you not only have most Christians camped outside Christ claiming Gods Word is theres, you have many of them starting churches and all kinds of other things, all built on the mistranslated word "believe," in a place that was only meant for people to be drawn through.  The only thing that can make those ones uncomfortable is the true meaning of the word pisteuo. So that's the least I feel I can do. I'm not only responsible for being accountable of the things I say, i'm also accountable for the things I do, or don't do.  [highlights added by me]

post 83: If I were trying to warn people about this mistranslation of the words believe, believer , and believing without first having the experience to support it, all your conclusions ( not knowing what I'm talking about) could be and most likely would be warranted. The problem for me and you is, I had the experiences talked about in the Word before I learned it. Life altering experiences, that no one could ignore. I don't see myself as anything special, i'm just having a by the book Salvation journey. These things should be happening to everyone here. I'm busting at the seams wanting to talk about Gods Word, but I know if this first piece of the puzzle isn't understood, nothing will happen.

 

As far as I can tell, the starter of that thread seemed to seriously believe it was not possible to have any serious spiritual discussion with anyone until they accepted that replacing "believe" with "surrender your life" in most Bible verses was correcting the Bible translation.   I have the distinct impression that poster did not think most other posters on that thread were in Christ.   I have the very sad and sinking feeling of a dear and sincere brother (or sister?) that God miraculously saved, and over the years became convinced that complete agreement on the use and meaning and translation of a single Greek word was the key to evangelism and reaching the lost as well as a reliable test for who was or was not in Christ.  They grabbed a Vine's dictionary, pulled one phrase from it (surrender your life), and seem to have built their life around correctly substituting that phrase into most Bible verses where "believe" occurs.  Their entire reason for being seems to be to enlighten people to that use of that single word so that they can be in Christ.  

It's sad.  Pretty much every Christian I know is convinced that our faith in God includes the elements of trust, confidence, and believing what He says and surrendering our lives to Him.  I think that's what that poster was saying but is unwilling to accept other Christians unless they would use that particular Greek word that exact way the poster was convinced they should be using it.  

From what I can see in that thread, neither my testimony of what Christ did in my heart over 40 years ago, nor the things God has done in the decades of my life since, nor the dozens of times I've read the Bible, nor reading the Bible in Greek and now learning Hebrew, nor anything in my life would have counted for anything in that thread unless I acknowledged that πιστευω has been consistently mistranslated and misused for centuries by multitudes of Christians.       I'm hoping I'm wrong since I didn't have the fortitude to read all 100+ pages, but in the few dozen I skimmed and read, that's what appears to have been happening.

Is this an excuse not to answer the question in my last post?

41 minutes ago, FresnoJoe said:

Who

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18 (New American Standard Bible)

Ever Said

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved. Romans 10:8-10 (Berean Study Bible)

That Salvation

Jesus replied, “All who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them. Anyone who doesn’t love me will not obey me. And remember, my words are not my own. What I am telling you is from the Father who sent me. I am telling you these things now while I am still with you. But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative—that is, the Holy Spirit—he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.

“I am leaving you with a gift—peace of mind and heart. And the peace I give is a gift the world cannot give. So don’t be troubled or afraid. Remember what I told you: I am going away, but I will come back to you again. If you really loved me, you would be happy that I am going to the Father, who is greater than I am. I have told you these things before they happen so that when they do happen, you will believe.

“I don’t have much more time to talk to you, because the ruler of this world approaches. He has no power over me, but I will do what the Father requires of me, so that the world will know that I love the Father. Come, let’s be going. John 14:23-31 (New Living Translation)

Is A Journey And Not

But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (New International Version)

The Completed Work Of The LORD Jesus

"Truly, truly, I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5:24 (New Heart English Bible)

I Ask

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17 (American King James Version)

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 (King James Bible)

Love, Your Brother Joe

~

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 (King James Bible)

The Bible contains the mind of God, the state of man, the way of salvation, the doom of sinners, and the happiness of believers. Its doctrines are holy, its precepts are binding, its histories are true, and its decisions are immutable.

Read it to be wise, believe it to be safe, and practice it to be holy. It contains light to direct you, food to support you, and comfort to cheer you.

It is the traveler’s map, the pilgrim’s staff, the pilot’s compass, the soldier’s sword and the Christian’s charter. Here too, Heaven is opened and the gates of Hell disclosed.

Christ is its grand subject, our good its design, and the glory of God its end. It should fill the memory, rule the heart and guide the feet. Read it slowly, frequently and prayerfully.  It is a mine of wealth, a paradise of glory, and a river of pleasure.

It is given you in life, will be opened at the judgment, and be remembered forever. It involves the highest responsibility, rewards the greatest labor, and will condemn all who trifle with its sacred contents.

From The Inside Of My Gideon New Testament

Everything you posted belongs to the ones who have already been accepted, and have been sealed with the Spirit of Christ.

I'm attempting to focus on the transitioning of the called out one going from Rom. 8:9 ,( not having the Spirit of Christ) and what " Faith looks like that starts the journey to being sealed with the Spirit of Christ.

I'll try to be more specific.

1) the Grace Christ gave to us as the result of His Faith makes Salvation possible, through Faith, our Faith!

1) The first thing that must happen in the Salvation journey is the Father calls out people to Christ.

2) the called out one then responds with a mental turning of the mind, ( repentance). Turning in the mind from our way to His way.

3) after the call, and the turning in our mind, the called out one takes their first step of Faith, ( specifically pisteuo ) towards Christ.

My question to the group is .

What specifically is involved in the taking of the first step of Faith in relation to Christ?

Remembering, at this beginning stage of the Salvation process, we don't have the Spirit of Christ yet. So Christ, His word, and His promises in His Word are not ours yet either.

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

Ephesians 2:8–10 (AV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Hebrews chapter 11 gives us a list of examples of faith in the Bible and a brief definition.

Remember faith is not of ourselves.

And those on the list had a lot less to go on than we do today (or since the Bible was written and completed).

Ours is a faith founded on fact.

And never doubt the human capacity to disbelieve the truth. ← That's what we are up against when even in faith we sometimes doubt or get off track.

Which proves faith is not actually of us.

It couldn't be. Even if we had saving faith on our own we could not maintain it.

It truly is the GIFT of God.

Who ever said "Faith or faithing, pistis or pisteuo" must be perfect? Only the Faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo of Christ is perfect. That is how His Grace came to be the free gift, something only Hecan do. Our Faith and faithing, pistis and pisteuo can only be genuine at best, especially at the beginning of the Salvation journey.

2 hours ago, JohnD said:

Ephesians 2:8–10 (AV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Hebrews chapter 11 gives us a list of examples of faith in the Bible and a brief definition.

Remember faith is not of ourselves.

And those on the list had a lot less to go on than we do today (or since the Bible was written and completed).

Ours is a faith founded on fact.

And never doubt the human capacity to disbelieve the truth. ← That's what we are up against when even in faith we sometimes doubt or get off track.

Which proves faith is not actually of us.

It couldn't be. Even if we had saving faith on our own we could not maintain it.

It truly is the GIFT of God.

Grace is the gift , and the ability to chose who or what we will serve is a gift also. But Faith applied is a verb, an act , based upon a belief, sustained by confidence. In relationship to God it's a specific act, based upon a specific belief, sustained by a specific kind of confidence.

Does anyone have the desire to know what that is ?

4 hours ago, Adstar said:

Not sure what you mean """the beginning state of being""""  ??? 

I re- read your first post and i can agree with your statement that we are saved by grace through faith..

In the Greek pistis is Faith, pisteuo is the application of Faith to a specific object of Faith. The problem is pisteuo couldn't be translated into the English language.

11 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

In a Christian sense, faith is a strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

There's no such thing as " believing" in Christ for Salvation. The words believe, believer, and believing are mistranslations of the Greek word pisteuo. Pisteuo couldn't be correctly translated into the English language, because the English language has no coresponding verb to the noun Faith like the Greek does to the word Pistis.

The Greek language doesn't even have a word for our English words believe, believer, and believing. The reason why? Because the Greek is very specific the most precise language on the planet. 

In the Greek Faith towards God or anything is always " pisteuo" moving towards God, or " apisteuo" moving away from God. They don't acknowledge any middle ground or neutral state of being.

So there's alot to unlearn and talk about. But that can only happen if someone is willing.

11 hours ago, noblenut said:

faith means to trust and be trustworthy, faith in God is to trust and believe him as abraham did

Trust and belief are a part of what saving Faith is. But taken on their own is error. Even trust and belief together is error. 

Abrahams Faith wasn't in God's words or promises ( like todays church world), it was in " God HIMSELF." There's a huge difference, the difference between the wide and narrow path.

11 hours ago, Michael37 said:

I have checked my responses to you, faither2, and I haven't used the word "claim"  or implied that faith is "applied to receive the Holy Spirit"  by claiming anything. Whoever is pushing the "Salvation journey" concept you are hung up on better have some Scriptures to base this on. Seems like a "works" doctrine, not a faith one to me.

Well you are claiming the Spirit of Christ, Christ, His word,and the promises in His word before you have the Spirit of Christ in you. 

If we could agree that this part of your understanding isn't correct, we could look at what I think is correct.

But you have to be courageous, humble and honest to continue, can you do that? Is the chance to know Christ better worth that?

12 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Faith isn't a beginning, God's grace is the absolute beginning that forms the foundation for faith.  That's where our salvation journey begins.

Ya that's a given!

But we're discussing when and how the Faith life, in relationship with Christ begins.

What's your understanding?

9 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Reliance based on proven trustworthiness, apparently. Belief which is enough to act upon, seemingly. Love borne of complete confidence, intrinsically.

Have faith in my answer and you will be blessed. ?

At the start of the Salvation journey, we don't have the Spirit of Christ yet. So Christ, His word, and the promises in His word are not ours yet.  Rom. 8:9

So  " Faith " must be something other than claiming any of those things , correct?

In your understanding, your claiming Christ, His word, and His promises, even His Spirit, and none of those things are ours at the beginning of the Salvation journey.

All that is happening is we have been called by the Father to Christ. ( Nobody comes to Christ unless the Father draws or calls them )

So I'm not seeing how claiming things that are not ours yet can be the " correct understanding of Faith". Especially, at the start of our journey. 

22 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

I don't like the idea that there is a formula. The Holy Spirit moves as it will, like the wind. We have this example in Acts but I have heard so many different testimonies that I can only conclude that the Word of God produces faith and God's amazing grace flows through it.

Act 19:1-6
(1)  And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
(2)  He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
(3)  And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
(4)  Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
(5)  When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
(6)  And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, a

Ok. In your understanding, God's word produces " Faith". What is Faith exactly? What specifically is God's word producing?

1 hour ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Yes you can PM and I will be looking forward to see what you think about “ Mean Gene”. Lol....

We might have to figure another way. I don't see where I can PM you here. Maybe because I'm a newbie here.

19 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Since God always knows all that is knowable, a person who genuinely responds to the Word of God, co-operates with the call of God, is quickened by the Spirit, and continues in the faith unmoved from the gospel of hope, is always known to God as one of His own in the intimacy of His eternal love irrespective of whatever duration is involved in the temporal affairs of that person. The enemy of our souls works to cast doubt and frustrate the grace of God, but nevertheless the grace of God is sufficient to meet every challenge and efficient to provide every blessing. 

I'm just not your understanding of

how the call, responding to the word of God, being " quickened" by the Spirit of Christ, and continuing in "Faith", ( which hasn't been defined yet) all at exactly the same moment in time?

Do you agree that there is a time before all those happenings, ( simultaneously or individually ) that we do not have the Spirit of Christ sealed in us yet?

14 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

I would be interested in your opinion of Dr.Scott.......would you care to share? Thanks....

Could I pm it to you tomorrow? I assume I can Pm on this site ?

1 minute ago, Michael37 said:

These would be simultaneous in God's economy.

Could you elaborate on " simultaneous"?

What specifically happens at the same moment in time?

3 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

My specific understanding of how faith is applied that results in receiving the Spirit of Christ is that by hearing the Word of God we become willing and obedient to His Will, including that we should abide in Christ and He in us.  

Heb 11:1-2 (ESV)
(1)  Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
(2)  For by it the people of old received their commendation.
Heb 11:1-2 (KJV)
(1)  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
(2)  For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Heb 12:2 (ESV)
(2)  looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:2 (KJV)
(2)  Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 5:8-9 (ESV)
(8)  Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered.
(9)  And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,
Heb 5:8-9 (KJV)
(8)  Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
(9)  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Thanks Michael.

Are you saying that after we are called out by the Father, we " hear " the word of God, obey it, then claim the promises in it, one of them being " recieving the Spirit of Christ?

1 minute ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

Yes......it’s what a Faither does.....he practices faith......that’s what the late, great Dr. Gene Scott used to teach....are you familiar with him?

Yes,. I've studied under His teaching for over 30 years. How do you know Him?

10 hours ago, Adstar said:

Faith - trusting and specifically trusting God..  We trust that the Atonement that Jesus secured for the foreignness of our sins does grant us forgiveness of our sins..

Thanks Adstar.

Do you agree with the beginning state of being I've presented?

12 hours ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

We are on the same page.....not worth quibbling over......please proceed.....

 

just out out of curiosity ......have you ever heard this?  “ faith is an ACTION.....based on a BELIEF....sustained by CONFIDENCE, that God will do what He said He will do”

The A,B,C's of Faith ?

Is this a good thing in your eyes?

21 minutes ago, Blood Bought 1953 said:

 

I think the first thing is the Act of the Holy Spirit thAt takes a heart of stone and transforms it to a contrite, softened heart that opens the eyes of a person and delivers him from the Fools Paradise,where he thinks he is OK and dies not need a Savior.When the eyes are opened, when the “ soil” of the heart is made ready to receive the “ seed” of the Gospel thAt will save him if he believes it and it alone for his Salvation, and Once one sees himself as a lost, Hell - deserving sinner, the rest can pretty much take care of itself.

Your jumping ahead a bit

Do you agree with the state of being at the start of the Salvation journey that I presented? If not, what part and why.

Trying to establish a starting point to discuss how Faith is started.

36 minutes ago, faither 2 said:

 

If everyone is in agreement on Rom:8:9, that if we don't have the Spirit of Christ at the very start of the Salvation journey, Christ is not ours.

With that said, if We don't have the Spirit of Christ ( because we are at the very start) then Christ, His word, and the promises in His word can't be ours yet either, correct.

If we can agree with this beginning state of the Salvation journey, we can then discuss what Faith is, and how the first act of " Faith " is fulfilled.

Let me be a little more specific with what I'm asking.

At the beginning of the Salvation journey, nobody comes to Christ unless the Father draws or calls them. So the first thing that must happen is the Father calls us out to Christ.

At this point where we are just being drawn or called by the Father, we do not have the Spirit of Christ yet, so Christ, His word, and the promises in His word are not ours yet either. As per Rom. 8:9.

This state would be before what the church world understands as "believing and recieving".

Hope that makes it a little clearer.

Any disagreement with this part?

20 minutes ago, faither 2 said:

Does anyone disagree with this post?

If everyone is in agreement on Rom:8:9, that if we don't have the Spirit of Christ at the very start of the Salvation journey, Christ is not ours.

With that said, if We don't have the Spirit of Christ ( because we are at the very start) then Christ, His word, and the promises in His word can't be ours yet either, correct.

If we can agree with this beginning state of the Salvation journey, we can then discuss what Faith is, and how the first act of " Faith " is fulfilled.

32 minutes ago, faither 2 said:

Just to find a place to start a discussion about Faith or Pistis, let me try and define what the beginning of the Salvation journey looks like and see if your in agreement .

Rom. 8:9 states that if the Spirit of Christ is not in us, " He is none of ours " . This would be the state of being we are all in at the start of our walk with Christ .

Are we in agreement with that ?

Does anyone disagree with this post?

3 minutes ago, Willa said:

Heb 10:22   AMP  Let us all come forward and draw near with true (honest and sincere) hearts in unqualified assurance and absolute conviction engendered by faith (by that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness), having our hearts sprinkled and purified from a guilty (evil) conscience and our bodies cleansed with pure water.

In other places Amplified uses trust in and rely on as terms for faith.  Faith is dependent by God's character, good NAME and reputation because He has shown Himself to be trustworthy over the centuries.

4 minutes ago, SelahSong said:

 

 

Ephesians 2:8-9 

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Grace is the source, and faith is the means by which we obtain the grace of God. It is through our faith that we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and are born from above.

Selah

Thanks

9 minutes ago, Abdicate said:

Skipping the buzzwords, "faith" is "a strong conviction of a belief." Nothing more, nothing less. It's not blind, it's built on facts. Doubt is the one torn between two opinions.

Faith Immovable
    • Faith is not blind
    • Faith is NOT taking a leap into the unknown
    • Faith has to do with the invisible not the unknown
        ○ Faith is seeing you pay your bills on time
        ○ Faith is seeing yourself healthy
        ○ Faith is seeing yourself full of energy at the end of the day
        ○ Faith is seeing your relationship more loving

Faith is the being absolute, sure, fully persuaded, immovable, about these things that have already been accomplished that you are confidently expecting!

In the healings of the Lord said, one way or another, He'd say, "Be it according to YOUR faith." Or "Be it according to YOUR strong conviction."

Thanks