Bro.Tan

On 10/14/2023 at 1:32 PM, FreeGrace said:

Many believers do not really know God.  They know the gospel and are saved, but have very little understanding of what God's Word says.  One big example is your kind of theology where works are necessary for salvation.

None of this has anything to do with works required for salvation or maintaining it.

Yes, all true, and NONE of it is about salvation.  The purpose of the Law was to prove that all men are sinful and need to be saved, which is by grace, through faith, and NOT of works.

I think it is very naive to believe what you are claiming here.  King David certainly loved God and God said in the Bible that David was a man after His own heart, yet David raped a woman and had her husband killed as a mature believer.

Do you believe that you no longer sin?

Jesus brought grace when he came in the flesh, but example of grace was in the days of Noah. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. (Genesis 6:8), And Noah and his family was saved. Now Paul said in (Rom. 3:23-25) (v.23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (v.24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (v.25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

So the bible tells you to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2 :36-38). And by doing so you come up under his precious blood and then you are saved from your sins that are past, not present or future sins but for sins that are past. We were all locked under death by Adam’s sin, even the second death. But when Jesus became (he was God in the beginning) man and died for the sins of the world, he gave us access back to the tree of life (himself) which Adam had caused us to lose. That’s what grace is, our free gift our access back to the tree of life but that’s another lesson for another time.

So by coming under the blood of Jesus you are saved from your past sins. And if you are saved now, it is on a day to day basis. Because for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 23:3), and if you continue to live you will sin again. It is the willful sinning that you need to put in check. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrew 10: 26, 27)

On 10/12/2023 at 7:19 PM, FreeGrace said:

Hardly.  He thought he had been keeping the Law.  But Jesus proved he wasn't even keeping the FIRST ONE.  Which is why he went away sad.  He wasn't even close to being "perfect", as Jesus proved.  He loved his money WAY more than any professed loved of God.  He proved it by his reaction to what Jesus told him to do.

It's clear that you are so dug in with your views you won't be swayed by any truth.  So  I'm just responding to any who read this thread and need to know the truth.  

You do not have the truth.  As I've shown with a number of verses that plainly refute your views.

Well, since you mention truth if a person says that they know God, but don’t keep his commandments, lets see what the Lord had specially written for them in (1John 2:3-4) (v.3) And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (v.4) he that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 

Let's take another look at those commandments, coming from Paul concerning the unchangeable Royal Law of God. (Rom. 13:7-10) (v.7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. (v.8) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. That’s the biblical definition of love, the keeping of God’s law. (v.9) For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF. (v.10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. 

And that is what God’s holy commandments are all about; the first four tells you how to love God and the last six tells you how to love your neighbor. If you love your God you will not do any thing to offend him, like having other gods before him. You will do as he says like remember the sabbath day to keep it holy on the seventh day of the week. If you love him you will obey him when he tells you not to eat certain meats etc… And the same goes for your fellow man, if you love your neighbor you wouldn’t steal from him, you wouldn’t kill him, you wouldn’t try and sleep with his wife and so on and so forth. (See exodus 20: 1-17) 

On 10/11/2023 at 4:25 PM, Vine Abider said:

How do you see this aligning with the book of Galatians? 

What do you mean, explain, use the Bible please.

On 10/11/2023 at 4:39 PM, FreeGrace said:

Another passage you don't understand.  The rich young ruler thought he had been keeping the Law and had eternal life.  He just wanted affirmation from Jesus, the good teacher.  Instead of affirmation, Jesus proved to him that he wasn't even keeping the first commandment.  Jesus did not present the gospel to him.  He wasn't even ready for it.

Do you understand this?

     Full Version Good Master Verse, Keeping the Commandments

Let's go back into Matthew 19: 16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Notice the young man says "All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?" The young man didn’t need to ask this question to Jesus, because he was already in a good place with the Lord. This is where the story gets interesting, because if you read the full story which we have to do, to get full understanding. We will see that the commandments Jesus mention wasn't the young man problem, it was something else. 

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. 

So Jesus says if thou be perfect, that means the young was really close to being perfect, but the young had great riches that he couldn't let go, and that goes with what Jesus says in Matthew (22:37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (38) This is the first and great commandment. This was very hard for the young man to do. So let's recap the story a little, the young man kept the commandments from his youth up, all most perfect, except one thing Jesus ask him to do, and that's sell all his possession and come follow him. This is about the young man heart, he did right by keeping the law from his youth up and he was bless, but his heart toward the lord was not all the way in place, because he had great possession. 

So let's continue in Matthew 19: 23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. 

This is God’s definition of love and it is perfect in its ways. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: And in keeping of them there is great reward. (Psalm 19: 7-11)

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

We're getting nowhere.  You fail to address anything I have posted, and just keep throwing out verses/passages that you think support your views, but don't, as I have repeatedly shown.  And you just ignore the verses that clearly refute your views.

So, what's up?

A man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19). If we make a mistake we must not give up, but I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus (Philippians 3:13-14). The last chapter in the whole bible reminds us of this one last time. "Blessed are they that do his commandments that they may have right to the tree of life." (Revelation 22:14).

7 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Sadly, one can stop serving Him.  But that does NOT result in loss of salvation.  This is just another clear example of your TOTAL REJECTION of what Jesus said in John 10:28.

Please check out the context for that verse.  It is referring to the 7 year tribulation that is in view regarding "the end".  It sure doesn't apply to every believer, but only those who will be IN the tribulation.  And the word saved doesn't refer to soul salvation, since that issue is totally resolved WHEN one believes.  John 5:24, another verse that you won't address or acknowledge.

Thank you for yet another glaring example of your refusal to believe John 5:24, where Jesus SAID "whoever believes (present tense) HAS (present tense) eternal life.

If that isn't salvation, then nothing is.  But you just ignore the verse as if it doesn't exist and Jesus didn't say that.

Think on this:  If salvation is a works in progress, then salvation depends on YOU and your works.  That is blasphemous!!  You are NOT a savior, either of yourself or anyone else.  

You are trusting in your own works to save you.  That isn't even Christianity.

On 10/9/2023 at 4:34 PM, FreeGrace said:

That is wrong.  Paul's mention of the Law included ALL that is found in the Law; not just sacrifices and laws pertaining to the priesthood.  

The rich young ruler thought he had eternal life because he thought he was keeping the law;  hadn't murdered, committed adultery, stole, etc.  That's what Paul was referring to when he mentions the Law.

The OT Law NEVER saved anyone.  The Law proved to everyone that they are unable to keep it.  That was it's purpose.  

Paul proved that Jesus is the Messiah from the OT.  And Paul's gospel was faith in the Messiah for salvation, same as in the OT.

You are conflating two different things.  We are saved by faith in Christ, and what follows salvation are the commands of obedience, for reward.  Our lifestyle has nothing to do with going to heaven.  It has everything to do with whether we will receive reward in eternity.

Jesus wasn't referring to salvation here.  He was referring to earned reward.

Just as you freely accepted Jesus in your life you can also freely choose to stop serving him. Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord.

Paul says in (Heb. 10:35-39) (v.35) Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. (v.36) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. People you must have patience when dealing with the word of God. And you must do the will of God, which is the keeping of his law, if you expect to receive the promise, which is eternal life in the kingdom of God, which will be established on this earth. NO ONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN. And it’s strange that most people who consider themselves “once saved always saved” are the same ones that tell you that God’s commandments were nailed to the cross. (v.37) FOR YET A LITTLE WHILE, AND HE THAT SHALL COME WILL COME, AND WILL NOT TARRY. 

(v.38) NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM. What does Paul mean by if any man draw back? You mean that once you are quote “saved” that you can draw back. According to the apostle Paul you can. Like I said earlier that just as you choose by your own free will to start serving the lord, you can by that same free will stop serving the lord or as Paul put it draw back. (v.39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. That’s what you must do, you must have faith (believe) unto the saving of the soul. And your soul is not saved as soon as you start to believe on Jesus, salvation is works in progress, not a one step solution.

On 10/9/2023 at 4:28 PM, FreeGrace said:

Wow.  Grace is the reason man is saved.  Grace saves, NOT works.  But you don't seem to believe the Bible, in spite of all the verses that refute your claims.

Yet you have the gall to call it "nothing more than a free gift".  How low can you go?

Of course my opinions don't count.  But my views come straight from the Bible, unlike yours.

Those who think that works are necessary in order to be saved are NOT SAVED.

They CAN'T be saved until they reject the false notion that they must help God in their savlation.

Paul said in (Gal. 6:) (v.3) For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself. (v.4) But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 

The book says let every man prove his own work, and if your work is good then you will rejoice in it. (v.5) For every man shall bear his own burden. That’s right; every man must bear his own burden. You mean you thought that all you had to do was confess the name of Jesus and that was it?

Brothers and sisters you must work to get salvation. (v.7) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. God is not to be played with. Whatsoever you plant, that’s what you are going to reap. Be it good works unto eternal life, or evil works unto eternal damnation. The choice is yours, and your works belong to you. 

8 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Yet, they do not save anyone.

Rom 3:20 - Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Were you never aware of this verse before?

When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the sacrificial laws and Priesthood laws. These laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins). 

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place. Jesus only died once, so if we willingly break God's law, after accepting Jesus, our reward will be eternal damnation (Hebrews 10:26-27) 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Let us avoid this at all costs, seeking a better reward. Jesus will return real soon And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12). 

8 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Still pushing a works salvation system, I see.

It's much easier to believe the Bible.  Salvation is free, by grace, through faith.

And it's permanent.

 Grace is nothing more than a free gift. And that free gift is our access back to the tree of life (Jesus) which Adam caused us to lose by disobeying God. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5: 12) But to maintain your grace you must keep the law. (1John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Now we have just read the biblical definition of sin, the transgression (breaking) of the law (commandments.) It doesn’t matter what you or I think sin is, it’s what God says sin is that counts. 

The commandments of God are not hard to keep (I John 5:3) and furthermore, they teach us love in the highest degree. If you love Jesus you will keep his commandments (St. John 14:15). You will not displease the Lord by: Worshipping other gods, having graven images, taking his name in vain, breaking his Sabbath day (which is Saturday not Sunday), or dishonoring your parents. On the other hand, if you love your neighbor as yourself you will not kill him, commit adultery with his spouse, steal from him, falsely accuse him, or covet anything of his. 

This is true love, and if obeyed how much better would our world be? This is why Jesus said that the two greatest commandments are loving the Lord with all your heart, soul, and mind; and loving your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:35-40). These two commandments are the foundation of the entire law. Many reject the law, but it is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good (Romans 7:12) even today. 

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, "repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38).

If we truly love God, then we will obey "Every word" that proceeds out of his mouth (Matthew 4:4). Baptism is one of those words. In order to be baptized, certain events must take place: You must give up a lifestyle where sin has dominion, (ruler ship) over you. Sin according to 1 John 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression (breaking) of the law. You must be taught "The Word", before you can adhere to God's commandments (judgments\statues). These laws are found in the Holy Bible; beginning with Genesis and ending with Revelation. You must believe what the bible says and finally, you must confess that Jesus is Lord. Once this has been accomplished, you are qualified to be baptized in the name of Jesus.

Here in Acts is an example, if you make a vow to GOD you had better keep it. 

Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, 2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it, at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. 6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. 7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. 8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. 9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. 10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. 

Would you have traded your salvation for a piece of land? Everything that you have in this world, you cannot take it to the next. Have you ever seen a Brink's truck follow a rich man to the grave? No. If you know a person is doing something that is contrary to the Law, don't agree with them, tell them they are wrong, or you may find yourself like these two people that put "man's face" on GOD. They thought that they were making a vow to Peter and the rest of the apostles. 

Let us return to Leviticus the 23rd chapter and look at the last High and Holy Day. The Feast of Tabernacles. 

Leviticus 23:33 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 34 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD. 

35 On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 36 Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein. 

Have you noticed each time a High Day is mentioned, the book states the Lord spoke unto Moses? The Book also says these are the Lord's feast. These are not the feast of the Jews, these feast are the Lords. On this day you shall have a solemn assembly you shall do no servile work therein. What is a solemn assembly? It is a coming together correct? This represents the coming together of the Lords people in the last days. The release of the people of God. Let us go to Deuteronomy 31st chapter and take a close look at this feast day. 

Deuteronomy 31:9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel. 10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles, 11 When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing. At the end of every 7 years this shall be the year of release. This is in the year of Pentecost or fiftieth year. Pentecost is also called the year of release. This is when the people will be brought together in the year of Pentecost. 

Deuteronomy 31:12 Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law: 

Notice what it says. Gather the people together that they may hear, and that they may learn and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law. When is this done? During the Feast of Tabernacles. Let us have a better look at this. Let's go to Leviticus the 25th chapter. Remember that Pentecost in also called the Year of release. 

Leviticus 25:8 And thou shalt number seven Sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven Sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years. 

Remember the Day of Pentecost we had 7 weeks. Now we have seven Sabbaths of Years. (Which equal 49 years). 

Leviticus 25:9 Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land. 

Note what it says, thou cause the trumpet of the jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the Day of Atonement. Jubilee means rejoicing or release. 

Leviticus 25:10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubilee unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family. 

Remember the word Pentecost means 50. We shall hallow the 50th year. Why? If we knew were to start counting these years, we could tell you exactly what year the Lord will return. On this day ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family. At this time every man will return to his own country or in other words unto his own family. 

Leviticus 25:11 A jubilee shall that fiftieth year be unto you: ye shall not sow, neither reap that which groweth of itself in it, nor gather the grapes in it of thy vine undressed. 12 For it is the jubilee; it shall be holy unto you: ye shall eat the increase thereof out of the field. 13 In the year of this jubilee ye shall return every man unto his possession. 

In this year every man will receive his possession. The Jubilee is the Year of Pentecost. This day the Lord will start His deliverance. The deliverance will begin on the Day of Atonement. The 7th trumpet will be blown, and the people will be gather in the Feast of Tabernacles. Tabernacle is the also call the Feast of Ingathering. 

1. The year the Lord will come is the Year of Pentecost. 

2. The day the Lord will stand on the earth is the Day of Atonement. 

3. The day the Lord will start to gather Israel or all those that are under His blood is 

the Feast of Tabernacles. 

I Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 

Look what God has created for us now. Look at the stars, moon, sun, trees, and mountains how beautiful they are. They take your breath away. Then you read this here in Corinthians and say it's better than this. The world we live in now cannot match up with the kingdom that shall come. There is a catch. It is for those who love HIM. What is the Biblical definition for loving GOD? 

I John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. Plain and simple. 

Pay close attention to what the God of Israel (Jesus) is saying here in Matthew. You will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven if you teach men that the law is no more. If you are the least in the kingdom you will be in the Lake of Fire. It's very clear that law is still in effect, last time I checked the heavens and the earth still exist. 

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 

In Ezekiel Jesus informs you how a man will die. If he breaks the law and does not repent (baptized in the name of Jesus and be circumcised) he will die. 

Ezekiel 18:10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things, 11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbor's wife, 12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge, and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination, 13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. The soul that sinneth it shall die. What is the biblical definition of sin? I John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. Now we see what sin is.

On 9/25/2023 at 11:17 AM, Stan Murff said:

Exactly... it's not about "earning salvation" but it's about being called to be obedient to the Lord and being ordained unto God Works.

Hebrews 13:20,21

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 2:10

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

James 2:26

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

2 Timothy 3:16,17

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


 

 

The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22). DON'T FOOL YOURSELF! If we really have faith in Jesus our actions will prove it. If Jesus is our Lord then we will obey him. Even a child will obey a parent, by getting good grades in school, for the reward of a new bicycle. The child cannot earn money for the bicycle, but instead must act upon their faith to receive the free gift. We must do the same to receive eternal life. "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD” (James 2:20).

On 9/25/2023 at 6:57 AM, FreeGrace said:

The "promise" here is "reward", not salvation.  Salvation is a gift. It is not earned or deserved.  A reward is earned or deserved.  They are opposites.

This is contrary to what Jesus said.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

The green words is the means of salvation.  To hear and believe what you hear/read.

Purpose words IS salvation.  This shows salvation is POSSESSED (has) the MOMENT one believes in Christ.

Blue words is a guarantee of not being judged for those who believe.

Orange words is an explanation of the transfer from spiritual death to spiritual (eternal) life.

There is nothing about works in process here.  From Jesus' own mouth.  Your statement is in direct conflict with what He said here.

What you are thinking of is Phil 2:12 - Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

However, there are 3 tenses involved with the word salvation.

Past tense salvation:  saved from the penalty of sin.  Justification

Present tense salvation:  saved from the power of sin.  Sanctification

Future tense salvation:  saved from the presence of sin.  Glorification

In Phil 2:12 Paul was referring to the believer's sanctification, which is about spiritual growth.

If you disagree with any of this, please be specific as to what exactly you disagree with and explain why you disagree.

Thanks.

Paul said in (1 Cor. 9:24-27) (v.24) Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. (v.25) And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown: but we an incorruptible. Paul says that when you run in a race every body is running for a prize. But this prize that he is referring to is eternal life, that’s what he means by an incorruptible, he’s talking about an incorruptible body, a heavenly body. (v.26) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly, so fight, not as one that beateth the air: (v.27) But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. You see Paul knew exactly what was going on that why he says he has to bring his body under subjection. Under subjection to what? To God’s Law, Paul knew that if he didn’t continue to keep Gods law that even after he had preached to many that he himself could still become a castaway. This doesn’t sound like Paul thinks that he has guarantee salvation. 

Don’t allow yourself to be deceived into believing that once you believe in the Lord that your work is finished, it has just started. 

Nevertheless, in judgment each one of us will give account for our own salvation. Therefore, we must not let anyone lead us down the wrong path, but should verify all of our teaching with the holy bible. YOUR SALVATION IS AT STAKE! "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). 

High and Holy Day, which is the Day of Atonement. Let's go to Leviticus the 23rd chapter. 

Leviticus 23:27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD. 

This is the Day of Atonement. It must be observed on the 10th day of the seventh month, you must have a holy gathering and also you must afflict your souls, which means you must fast on this day (sundown to sundown). This day represents the atonement that Jesus made for us. In Moses' day the Priest would take 2 goats. One would be killed and the other would be let go. The Goat that was let go was called the scapegoat. On the scapegoat, all the sins of the people were place. It was then taken into the wilderness and released. This represents Jesus dying for us and taking all our sins upon Him self. This is for the ones that put themselves under the blood of Jesus. He suffered for us, so we should suffer a little showing our appreciation for what He did for us. 

Let's take a look at the 2 goats. 

Leviticus 16: 5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. 6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house. 7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. 

Both of these goats represent Jesus. The Goat was offered for a sin offering. What was Jesus? He was our sin offering to the Father. The scapegoat presented alive, represented the Lord when He came out of the grave and was presented alive to the Father. Let us continue in the 23rd chapter of Leviticus. 

Leviticus 23:28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God. On this day, there is absolutely no work to be done. This day the Lord made atonement for us. Let us now go into Romans the 5th chapter and see what the Lord's death and resurrection did for us. 

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Christ died for the ungodly. If everyone was without sin or perfect, the Lord would not have had to die for us. 

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 

Notice what is being said. We were reconciled or recovered by His death, and we shall be saved by His life. Remember the scapegoat? Jesus had to take our sins away. Just like the scapegoat released in the wilderness. If Jesus did not resurrect we would still be in our sins. 

Romans 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. 

If you put yourself under the Lord's blood, He has made an atonement for your sins that have passed. You have been reconciled. It is up to you to continue in this reconciliation unto eternal life. (MEANING KEEPING HIS LAWS AND STATUES). This day represents the Lord making atonement for our sins. 

Paul says in (Heb. 10:35-39) (v.35) Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. (v.36) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. People you must have patience when dealing with the word of God. And you must do the will of God, which is the keeping of his law, if you expect to receive the promise, which is eternal life in the kingdom of God, which will be established on this earth. NO ONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN. And it’s strange that most people who consider themselves “once saved always saved” are the same ones that tell you that God’s commandments were nailed to the cross. (v.37) FOR YET A LITTLE WHILE, AND HE THAT SHALL COME WILL COME, AND WILL NOT TARRY. 

(v.38) NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM. What does Paul mean by if any man draw back? You mean that once you are quote “saved” that you can draw back. According to the apostle Paul you can. You can by that same free will stop serving the lord or as Paul put it draw back. (v.39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. That’s what you must do, you must have faith (believe) unto the saving of the soul.

And your soul is not saved as soon as you start to believe on Jesus, salvation is works in progress, not a one step solution.

11 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Obviously the Lord.  But what's the point?

Since God is omniscient, He has ALWAYS known how Abraham would respond.  So God wasn't testing him to find out anything.  God did it to show mankind how much faith in Him that Abraham had.

Heb 11:17-19 tells us about Abraham's great faith:

17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 

18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”

19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death

Abraham fully expected that by obeying God, he would see the miracle of resurrection from the dead.  And consider this:  Isaac was a strapping young man, and fully able to whip his dad.  No way he would have allowed Abraham to do what he was told to do if Abraham hadn't convinced Isaac that God would raise him from the dead!

Why not?

Exactly!

OK, you have quoted a string of verses, but without any comment or point.

So again, what IS your point?  Can you explain yourself?

Paul says in Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

We have no idea what awaits us if we make it to the right side of the gulf. We must keep his Commandments, Statues and Judgements in order to make it. Have faith that he will deliver us at the time appointed. If we use the examples of our forefathers in Hebrews 11, we will be alright. 

Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord.

19 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Of course I am fully aware what Jesus did for everyone.  And I haven't received His grace in vain.  

Great verses, for sure.  But what is your point here?

Look what Abraham did here. Who does he love more Isaac or the LORD. 

Genesis 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. 2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. 3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. 9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. 

10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. 11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 

Abraham had faith in GOD. Why? He did exactly what the LORD told him to do. The LORD told Abraham earlier that Isaac would carry his seed. Abraham new the LORD would not lie, he knew the LORD could raise his son from the dead if he had sacrificed him. This act got Abraham 

into the kingdom. How do I know that, read the next set of verses in Hebrews and you will see. A few other brothers also in Hebrews 11 are waiting on the promise. 

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.  8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 

36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. 

As you can see these brothers went through some rough times. If you think your walk with the LORD will be easy you are gravely mistaken. If it is easy you had better check which lord you are following. Look at some of the things they had to go through. Some of them had trials of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; Can you handle this? If you are a true servant of GOD you will experience some type of persecution. We are in the last days. If you don't have enough faith in the LORD to flee into the wilderness when abomination of desolation comes on the scene you will suffer like some of the people here. 

On 9/22/2023 at 7:08 AM, FreeGrace said:

This is not what the Bible says.  In fact, we know what the will of the Father is, because Jesus told us in very plain words.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

As to how to become a "family member", we also have very plain words that tell us exactly HOW:

John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

Clear enough, but would you like another one?  OK

Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,

So, you see, salvation and becoming the family of God is by faith.  No works listed at all.

Why do you continue to insist that works are necessary for salvation when you have no verses that say so?

Remember what JESUS did for all of us, don't receive HIS grace in vain. 

John 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. 25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour. 27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. 

What was HIS cause? To die for all men. Did HE think of HIMSELF? Look at verse 27, Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. He did the will of the Father. 

You now should clearly understand these verses that the Master is saying here. 

Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. 

Will you deny the LORD for your mother or your father or any other family member? Will you turn away from His law for someone in your family? Look and see who the LORD considers family members. 

Matthew 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. 

So I see, if you do the will of the Father in heaven you are a family member.

Listen very carefully to what the Master is saying here. 

Mark 8: 34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. 36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? 37  Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. 

Look at verse 35 in Mark, For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. What life are you losing? That sinful life. If you pick up his cross and bare it, you put off that old man and put on the new. Verse 36, For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Remember you cannot take anything with you into the next life. What shall you give in exchange for eternal life in the GOD family? Look what JESUS says here. Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. So when you are being persecuted for the Word's sake, and you are ashamed instead of standing your ground, HE will be ashamed to mention you when he returns. Do you know what that means? You will hit the Lake Of Fire.