ByTheSpirit

Good input thank you!

You yourself said the position you presented was not your own so are your words now your own or someone else's? listen, the church does not equate to PEACE, as you state. Peace comes from the Holy Spirit not the church. if the Tribulation is God's Wrath on the UNGODLY as you state, then why are you worried about saints being on earth during that time? Are saints ungodly? Or will God indiscriminately punish all people together?

That is the ultimate will of the Father yes. But isn't God's will also: Sanctification? Healing? Etc... Anything Jesus taught or did was an expression of God's Will. Yes the ultimate will of God is for all people to believe and no we shouldn't wait on that. but per my OP, there is nothing a person can do to enforce God's Will if it is not according to God's Time.

Care to elaborate a bit? I am not sure I understand.

A couple things I want to say about the pretrib rapture and my disagreement with it. In Revelation 16:15 Jesus says to His People, "I am coming like a thief." This is literally right before the 7th bowl of wrath. Jesus himself says that he has not yet returned "like a thief" a passage you yourself quote as supporting the pretribulation rapture and yet at the end of the wrath of God Jesus still has not returned. You quote Revelation 3:10, but let's look at something. In John 17:15 Jesus says "I pray that you take them not from the world but protect (guard, tereo) them from the evil one." In both passages there are striking similarities we cannot ignore nor dismiss. John writes both passages. Jesus is speaking in both passages. In both passages he uses "tereo" (to guard, keep). Yet in John, Jesus doesn't ask for his people's removal, but for their protection. So Rev 3:10 cannot mean a removal from the earth, rather protection from the evil one. Lastly, the most irrefutable evidence there will be no pretribulation rapture is found in four locations actually, John 5:28-29, Revelation 20:4-6, 1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4. In John 5, Jesus says there are only two resurrections of the dead. One to condemnation and one to life. Explained further in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul said Jesus was the first to rise from the dead then "at his coming" those who belong to him. No mention of multiple "comings" or even multiple "resurrections", just Jesus raised from the dead and at his return those who belong to him. Those people are the blessed ones who take part in the first resurrection. Revelation 20 Then Paul mentions in 2 Thessalonians 2 "that day" as in the "Day of the Lord" that he spoke extensively about in 1 Thessalonians an de the first part of 2 Thessalonians. He also says "that day" will be the time in which we are "gathered to him" (2:1). Now what does 2:3 say? That day will NOT come until 2 things happen. Two things absolutely must happen before Jesus comes back in glory and we are gathered to him: (that "and is vitally important as a connecting clause BTW) mankind must massively rebel against God (great apostasy) and the man of lawlessness is revealed (aka the Anti-Christ). Sure we can say the rebellion has already occurred BUT absolutely cannot say that the Anti-Christ has been revealed yet. And until that happens there will be no gathering to Jesus.

The fall from the garden. Notice it says the restoration of ALL things, not just some. When the entire world was as God intended... fully restored. No more death, sorrow, pain, just as God intended from the beginning. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 Revelation 21:3-5 God bless!

Wow lots to digest here. Let me try to give some feedback, I will go in order of the bottom of your post to the top. -Good point about removing your ambassadors from a battlefield, this is true. Ambassadors is a label given only once in scripture though, whereas several times Paul says we are Soldiers and describes our battle and how to prepare. Will God remove his army from the battlefield and forfeit the fight? -The Lord absolutely deserves everything he earned. But if he gets it before the Tribulation or after he has waited 2,000 years and by that time who knows how much longer. I am pretty sure 7 years will not be a big deal. -Yes God will not resurrect saints past to go through the Tribulation, but if you call death an escape from Tribulation then you are a bit unique in that from a human point of view. Scriptures actually suggest a similar theme, but that those who die in Revelation will have come out of the Tribulation. Revelation 7:14 My question at this point will be this: There are undoubtedly believers during the Tribulation. Does God love those believers any less than the raptures ones? Why would he spare pretribbers the Tribulation but not the ones who are alive during? "In other words: why would Paul mention about the Church not suffering wrath in a passage concerning the destruction of unbelievers in the "Day of the Lord", if the Church will go through it?" Because Paul knew that believers would be protected from that destruction by right of their believing in Jesus. Tell me this, God sovereignly protected the Israelites as he was unleashing his wonders upon the Egyptians. Would he be unable to do the same for those who believe in His Son?

Amen! I will pray for you on this as well if that is ok

Except there is no pretrib rapture.

Saying someone has no hope because they don't align with a doctrine is pretty condemning to me. I will refrain from further debate on the topic and we will have to agree to disagree on the subject

I can not agree. You said you have *no interest in debating so I will only add one remark. You said, or rather he said, "Those looking for the antichrist before Christ have no blessed hope." That is a ridiculous thing to say on a number of levels. I for one believe the AntiChrist comes before Jesus does and I am full of hope in Jesus. Why? Because my faith is in Jesus no matter what may happen, not in me being removed from the planet before God does his thing. So to state people who don't align with a pretrib rapture have no blessed hope is unbiblical, wrong, and a flat out lie. secondly explain such a statement in light of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4. Paul very plainly states that the Lord Jesus will not return, we will not be gathered, nor will the Day of the Lord come until two things happen: the great apostasy, and the revelation of the Anti-Christ. If you want to respond you are welcome to, but it is highly advisable to not put such broad statement such out there and then make accusations or condemnations without solid proof of being correct. Those who do not hold to your belief on the topic are not condemned for such, and usually such statements are the individuals attempt to safeguard or intimidate a follower to uncompromising belief.

"It is the Father's Will that ..." is a statement thrown around A LOT in Christian circles. Whether it be for healing (usually the case) or some other blessing, we can deduce pretty easily from scripture what the Father's will may be. So why do so many people not receive said "Will of the Father"? What will normally happen is the person seeking will be sent away. Sometimes they are told, you just gotta believe brother/sister. If you stop believing it will never come. There is some element of truth to this but is it always? Other times the minister may be so bold (and ignorant) to tell the person they lack sufficient faith. But what about this aspect people never seem to discuss: is it the right time for the will of the Father to come to pass? The Israelites were deported to Babylon around 590 BC. It was always the will of Yahweh to bring them back to their homeland but when? His will could not happen until the appropriate time. People had to WAIT. Mary and Martha begged Jesus to heal Lazarus. He is about to die Lord! Come quickly! But he delayed still. Finally a full 4 days after death, Jesus says Lazarus come forth! Now it was always the Father's will to bring Lazarus forth, but not until the right time! The lame beggar of Acts 3 sat by the Gate Beautiful in Jerusalem for decades, without a doubt Jesus would have seen this man going in and out of the Temple. Yet it was Peter that said Rise and walk. Why didn't the Father's will come until that time and not when Jesus walked the earth? Because it wasn't the right time according to the Father! Waiting is not something society does well anymore. We are always consumed with going, doing, faster and better. We say and more horrifyingly teach that the Father's will is NOW and if you fail to receive it is your own fault. So what am I getting at here? That what is just as important to knowing the Father's will is knowing when the Father wants his will to be enacted! Fail in either regard and you are wholly outside of God's providence and working on your own accord.

I always thought the vials, seals, and trumpets are intermingled with each other. I know the language of a couple sentences might suggest otherwise but they all end in almost identical manners. I also view the book of Revelation after chapter three to be a series of recurring visions that God grants John but only from different perspectives.

Does anyone here see the coming astrological craze of September 23 as the fulfillment of Revelation 12?

Interesting! Thanks

So when the gospel is preached, I have seen some churches (usually megachurches) simply ask people to raise their hands to "receive" Jesus. I don't particularly view this as responding to the gospel, but I would like to see what everyone here thinks about it. Does a person need to respond to the gospel to be saved? If so, what does responding look like? Now my big issue with the modern idea of evangelism is it usually says to "Ask Jesus into your heart". Problem I have with that is that phrase is nowhere in scripture. Revelation 3:20 is the closest to it and it is used out of context. My personal opinion (and I would like to think scriptural) on the matter is found in Acts 2. Why? The significance of Acts 2 can never be overstated. This is the very first instance of the full gospel being preached. Jesus has now ascended and the Holy Spirit has come. Never before has the circumstances occurred. So Peter preaches that Jesus is the Messiah, that he has given the Holy Spirit to all people for all ages through the death burial and resurrection of Jesus who is now ascended to the Father's right hand. The people ask (VERY IMPORTANT): What must we do to be saved? What is Peter's response? Does he say come to the front so we can pray for you? No. Does he say lift your hands if you want to receive Jesus for we don't want to embarrass you? No. Does he say, repeat this prayer after me? No. Peter tells that massive crowd to: REPENT & Be Baptized for the forgiveness of sins! Then they can receive the Holy Spirit. So in the very first instance of the full gospel being preached, the precedent and standard is set: Yes, I do believe we must respond to the gospel. And responding is to repent and be baptized! Then we can receive the Holy Spirit.

Amen!

For clarification: I am not saying Revelation has been partially fulfilled, nor completely. but historical events have occurred without refute that could be fulfillments of specific prophecies in Revelation and that is the basis of my question. thanks for those that have responded thus far

Good stuff

Is it possible that Revelation has been gradually fulfilled throughout the church age? There is a large number of the Church that believes the Pope to be the Anti-Christ and Rome as "Mystery Babylon". We know from history that those who did not worship Catholicism would be excommunicated by various popes, causing them to be unable to buy or sell goods. At some points the pope(s) would even bring death to such people and whole groups of people. I am not specifically trying to discuss the verification of these events, they are historical in nature but rather the prophetic implications. They clearly fulfill the words of Revelation concerning the beast and his false prophet, so that leads to my question. Has Revelation been fulfilled throughout the age? The End Times did after all start on the Day of Pentecost 33 AD when the Holy Spirit was poured out.

I will take you from where you are to where I want you to be. I am the Shepherd, you are the sheep! The sheep do not dictate to the Shepherd where to go or what to do. I lead you to still waters. I provide for you. I protect you. You must trust in me. Be consumed with my presence. When you take your eyes off me, is when the worries and fears of this world overtake you! All you need do to find peace is to find me and set your eyes on me. I am your guide! I am your peace! I am your Shepherd who leads you you and says to you, Do not be afraid, I am with you!

I don't disagree. Scriptures are plainly clear that Jesus will return during a time of great evil (darkness).

If you notice I actually mentioned at the end that we should live in expectation of his return, and in no place did I put a date only a season

In Exodus 23 God tells Moses that the Jews are to hold three festivals in his honor in his presence. These three festivals hold extreme significance in God's eternal plan as I will show. And God always works according to a plan and he actually does reveal mostly what he is doing to those who diligently seek him.So the three feastivals are:Exodus 23:15 - The Feastival of Unleavened Bread - This is when Jesus was crucified (around March ~ April 33 AD)Exodus 23:16 - The Feastival of Pentecost - This is when the Holy Spirit was poured out (7 weeks after The Feastival of Unleavened Bread)*Exodus 23:16 - The Feastival of the Shelters - This is the only one left unfulfilled as of yet, and it will be the time period that Jesus returns (around September ~ October annually)Now some people will use equations to try and guesstimate the year of Jesus return. I personally think it will be in the coming years. Reason being (2 Peter 3:8) is 2,000 years from his ascension (Jesus rose early at the start of the third day) and 6,000 years from the biblical date of creation. God worked for 6 days and rested on the 7th, and the 7th day will be the 1,000 year reign of Christ.What specific day? I have no idea, but Jesus only said we wouldn't know the day. He actually did say we could know the season and time.So that is my idea, around Sept~Oct, probably around the year 2030. But if he comes today (I hope he does) then bless his name! If he never comes in my lifetime bless his name! Every believer should have the expectation that Jesus will return in their lifetime.