Steve Conley
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Posts posted by Steve Conley
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2 minutes ago, OldCoot said:
What is the purpose of the GT period?
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
OC, persecution has been the lot of those who will live Godly in Christ Jesus. For the past ~2000 years believers have died for their identification with Christ in every violent and gruesome manner possible. This has been the experience of hundreds 0f millions at the hand of the Romans, Muslims, Communists, and other evil nations, men, and religions. After the man of sin is revealed in the Temple demanding to be worshipped as God the persecution will increase to an unprecedented level in both scope and severity. Today in the West we live in an aberration from the normal experience of true churches throughout the last 2000 years. The persecution has been very light. We have become accustomed to this life of ease absent the overwhelming pressure of violent persecution and have taken it for granted. That will all change in the coming years.
The answer to your question is threefold
Concerning the Dragon (Satan) who gives power (authority) to the Beast, he promulgates this persecution of Israel and the Elect because "he knoweth that he hath but a short time."
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Concerning the Church, It is an opportunity to increase our joy when we meet Christ at His revelation. It is an opportunity to demonstrate the power of the Holy Spirit within every true believer to be faithful unto death thereby exhibiting our worthiness of the Kingdom of God. It is a period of practical purification from sin.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
Concerning unbelieving Israel, Jacob's trouble is God's discipline with the purpose of turning that unbelieving nation back to Him.
Jer 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
Jer 30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
Jer 30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
Jer 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Jer 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
Jer 30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
Jer 30:12 For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous.
Jer 30:13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines.
Jer 30:14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased.
Jer 30:15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee.
Jer 30:16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey.
Jer 30:17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after.
Jer 30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof.
Jer 30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
Jer 30:20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them.
Jer 30:21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD.
Jer 30:22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Jer 30:23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.
Jer 30:24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.Praise Jesus Christ our Saviour
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31 minutes ago, OldCoot said:
Oh fellow foolish one... just throwing it back for the fun of it. I love it when people attempt personal attacks. When it happens, I become convinced that I struck a chord and am really upsetting their apple cart. I said "oh foolish one" in jest as a response to your saying it. But I would watch out how you throw that around on purpose, as it is a sin to call a brother in Yeshua a fool. Scripture is clear.
If a person has accepted the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua for the remission of their sins and salvation, and have joined with Him, then they are sealed unto the day of redemption and whether they go into the Tribulation Period or not has no bearing on them spiritually. They have been bought and paid for by the Messiah and are sealed by the Holy Spirit. They are in the body. To suggest what you are implying is to suggest that the Holy Spirit is unable to keep that person sealed.
Now it could be true that one might claim to be a believer and is not, and they would indeed be at risk of going into the Tribulation period without the protection of the Holy Spirit.
We do indeed share in the Messiah's sufferings. But that is in the present time. The brothers and sisters in N. Korea, Sudan, etc are doing so as we write these things. I am grieved daily for what they are having to endure. I petition the Lord daily to preserve and protect these wonderful brethren thru the trials they are enduring. I long to see them receive their reward from Yeshua. What a wonderful experience that will be to see the Lord embrace them after all they have suffered. But that doesn't mean that every Christian alive just before the GT period starts must go thru the same thing to "prove themselves worthy" by having the privilege of identifying with the Messiah and His suffering. Especially when what is going on the GT period is at the will of the Messiah Himself. That period is to make the unbelieving world suffer under judgment by the Messiah to drive them, and especially the Hebrew people, to repentance.
And we know that this is the reason for the GT period because the Messiah Himself stated He would not return again UNTIL the Hebrew people en masse acknowledge their offense of rejecting Him and petition for His return. Yeshua made the abundantly clear in Hosea 5 and emphasized it again in Matthew 23. It doesn't get any simpler than that. The GT period is not to offer the opportunity for believers to score brownie points with the Lord. It is to drive the world and especially the Hebrew people to repentance.
But you are welcome to participate in that if you wish. I would not stand in your way. It somewhat bothers me that you feel the need to go thru that period. It causes me to wonder if you know in whom you have placed your trust. I know in whom I have placed my trust, and that I will watch all of this from the comfort of the presence of the Lord, as He promised in Isaiah and Paul expounded on.
There will be those that do come to repentance in the GT period, they will then become saints, and they will indeed suffer martyrdom. But they went into the GT period as unbelievers. There is no way to construe from that fact that the body of believers that comprise the Church at the start of the GT period have to go thru it. Any idea that they do exhibits that the person expressing that idea has no clue what the GT period's purpose is for.
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
OC, there was no levity in my statement, the foolishness (irresponsible act) you are committing is promising believers that they will not face persecution at the hand of the Beast (AC). That will only be true if they physically die before he is revealed. Until 200 years ago such a thing was not taught. If your thinking of some ancient writer (Pseudo Ephriam) or early church father (Cyprian, Irenaeus, Tertullian) whose writing appear to espouse a tenant of pre-tribulationism, I also once believed the pre-trib "experts", however upon personal examination of the writings of these men I found that they expected the church to be persecuted by the Beast (AC). So, the "conflagration", "tribulation", or whatever description they used for that period that we are not appointed unto didn't refer to persecution by the Beast, but to the pouring out of God's wrath. We are told that we are not appointed unto God's wrath in the day of the Lord. But that is not the case with Satan's wrath through the Beast in the great tribulation. Jesus said concerning the sign of His coming:
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Notice that the word afflicted is the first use of thlipsis in the Matt 24 text. It refers to pressure and is also translated tribulation, trouble, persecution, anguish and burdened. What kind of pressure is it? It is the violent pressure of being hated by all nations and persecuted unto death. Who is being persecuted? Those who identify with Christ Jesus (for my name's sake). The nation of Israel has yet to identify with Jesus Christ. They rejected him at His first coming and 2/3 of them will be slain and the remaining brought through the fire of purification before they call upon the name of the Lord.
OC, you are mixing the two periods of tribulation together. The unprecedented persecution of the Jews and the Elect takes place before Christ's coming at which time He begins to pour out His wrath upon the earth dwellers. This scenario is clear in Paul's teaching to the Thessalonians.
2Th 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:Notice that Paul praises and encourages them for their faithfulness in the severe persecution that they were suffering. Paul uses both Greek words which indicate pressure and fleeing or being pursued. They were experiencing violent persecution at the hands of the Romans, they were given the choice, choose Caesar and live or Christ and die.
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:Their faithfulness is proof that they are worthy of the kingdom of God. Passing the test their faith is shown to be genuine. Jesus said:
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Mat 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.All the academic Bible knowledge and theological understanding that one may have is of no profit if one ultimately fails the test of true faith. Take the mark and worship the beast and you are lost forever. Confess Jesus before men and He will confess you before the Father.
Let's see Paul's explanation of the order of things associated with Christ's coming.
First God is going to repay those who persecuted His church with tribulation (pressure from Him). Things are going to get unbearably difficult for the earth dwellers who persecuted us. This tribulation is described in Rev 8-9 and 15-16. It is God's wrath poured out without mixture.
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
We, the church, will be able to rest from persecution at Christ's revelation with the mighty angels. It is then that we are resurrected, changed, and raptured. Notice Paul links our physical safety with the revelation of Christ, not a secret appearing. The church rests when Jesus in glory reveals Himself to all the unexpecting world in the clouds of the atmospheric heaven with His mighty angels. At which time he sends them to gather us to Him in the clouds.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
It is at this time that His wrath begins to fall upon the Christ-rejecting, Beast worshipping, Elect persecuting, earth dwellers. He will be avenging the violent murders of His saints.
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
The punishment for those who reject Christ and persecute His elect shall be everlasting destruction.
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
This happens when we see Christ at His appearing. This is our blessed hope even the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Yes it is the will of God that we suffer for Jesus
The martyrs are told that they must wait for their blood to be avenged. It will be necessary for more faithful believers to die as martyrs. It is God's will that will need to be fulfilled.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.Your mischaracterization of what I believe when you say I'm looking for believers to score brownie points is more of your foolishness. All I'm doing is quoting Scripture, your beef is with God, the one you claim to worship. These are the words of His apostles and prophets that you are having a problem with. You set yourself against Paul and Christ Himself by what you teach. Yes, millions have joined in this deception, but Praise God, many have had the blinders removed from their eyes and have escaped the pre-trib delusion.
Glory to Jesus Christ
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On 2/11/2019 at 9:23 AM, Littlelambseativy said:
If you are a father and see your child walk ahead of you in the parking lot only then to see that a car is backing out and your child, who is oblivious of impending danger, is in harms way ready to be run over...what would you do? As a loving father I would hope that you would run and “snatch “ your child from danger or harm.
Would our loving Father in Heaven do less than you a mortal here on earth? That is the reason for the rapture, Snatching or any other word related to the rapture.
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
I suppose the Lord didn't love these martyrs or their fellowservants.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.You don't know what you are talking about. Tell that to the hundreds of millions of believers who have been slaughtered by the Muslims over the past 1400 years.
Glory be to Jesus Christ
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On 2/10/2019 at 11:26 PM, OldCoot said:
Really? The pre-trib position seems to motivate many who hold it to recognize that the time is short and those that remain behind are in grave danger. It motivates those of us who hold that position to seek out the lost and show them the Gospel of salvation because we believe the time is short. It also keeps those of us who hold to this position to a standard of staying in right relationship with the Lord because He could gather us at any moment. The only risk we could possibly be in is being asleep spiritually and not focused on what we are called to be.
If the position is in error, then how would those who hold to the position be at risk for their safety? Because they didn't follow the fad du jour and become self absorbed super preppers? And given the technology of today, how would anyone who hold an alternate position and goes into that period be any more safe than a pre-tribber? It is extreme arrogance to think that one is going to be safe during that time based on an eschatology.
Too many false assumptions. But that's ok. We will explain it further on the way up. All those that are redeemed will be part of that removal. Even if they hold a alternate eschatology. Those that do hold an alternate eschatology seem to imply that those who hold to a pre-trib position are somehow not redeemed or at best, marginal Christians. It becomes a "I am better than you" philosophy. So what is the source of redemption of the believer? Eschatology or the atonement of the Messiah? Pre-trib adherents are all inclusive. We believe that all of the redeemed will be removed prior to that period. All those that are redeemed thru the Messiah will be removed.
It is not the best way to approach this, but based on the many anti pre-trib arguments, I am even more motivated to hold to a pre-trib position. At least it offers the greatest hope. Every other postion offers this..... The Messiah betrothed us to Himself, but He has so little regard for us that He wants us to go thru the worse period of history to befall the earth and then afterwards have supper with us. it almost smacks of a works righteousness gospel. That we somehow have to prove our worthiness of His redemption. I see that as the ultimate insult to Him.
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
O foolish one, you didn't listen to what I said was the danger. The danger isn't physical it is spiritual. The saints are said to be overcomers in martyrdom. However, those who are professors who experience unprecedented persecution and are offended, it is they who are in danger. It is those among so-called Christian churches who are deceived by the lying signs and wonders that are in danger. Those who have been told that they don't have any worry, they can take the mark and not be lost. These, who refuse the love of the truth, Paul said that God would send them strong delusion.
You fail to see that it is the will of God and a blessed privilege that we identify with Christ in His sufferings. My hope is not in making it out of here without experiencing persecution, but Jesus Himself. Jesus has always been the church's blessed hope. When He comes it will be a rescue to prevent the Beast from killing every last child of God.
Glory be to the Lamb
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On 2/10/2019 at 11:07 PM, iamlamad said:
We can prove by Rev. 12:6 that the revealing is in chapter 11.
On 2/10/2019 at 10:57 PM, iamlamad said:HOWEVER: it seems the experts greatly favor "present."
On 2/10/2019 at 10:45 PM, iamlamad said:there is simply NO PROOF this gathering is Paul's rapture. Indeed, there is proof it is NOT! There is no way one can get a post GT rapture from 1 Thes 4 or 5.
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
Mr. Mad, I've been unable to give any attention to your posts for a few days. I would be interested in your proving that the revelation of the AC is in Rev 11. It appears that is just supposition based upon the idea that there are 3.5 years left in the seventieth week at Rev 12:6. There are parenthetical portions of John's recording of the things which shall be hereafter. Chapters 6-9 and 15-16 are chronological but all the others are not, but are pericopes providing details which fit into the chronological narrative and outside it.
As to your statements concerning the modern Bible translations, the "experts", and the millions of pretribbers. No one can translate the Scriptures without their understanding of Bible doctrine affecting their choice of words used to represent the original text. It is expected that pre-tribbers will translate it consistent with their doctrinal beliefs. If you go back before the teaching of JND, I expect you will find translations that aren't so accommodating to pre-tribulationism.
Matt 24 records Christ describing the events which precede His coming. There are more than 2 dozen parallels between Christ's description of what precedes His arrival and the gathering of His elect in Matt 24 and Paul's eschatological teaching in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians. I'm sure you can find them if you're interested in truth.
Unlike most pre-tribbers, you do not teach that the day of the Lord nor the seventieth week begins with the 1st seal. You are correct that the day of the Lord begins after the sixth seal is opened, with Christ's glorious appearing taking place after the cosmic sign. However, you do not recognize John's cosmic sign as the same cosmic sign that Christ said immediately follows the great tribulation.
Also, it appears that you do not recognize that great tribulation refers to unprecedented persecution upon the elect by the beast instead of God's wrath upon the elect and the earth dwellers. Here is a real problem for pretribulationists. They teach that God is pouring out His wrath upon His own faithful saints, those who love not their lives unto death. Pre-tribbers have God tribulating (persecuting) His own, how dreadful.
You fail to recognize that the Gentile believers have been made partakers with the believing Israelites of the promises made to the fathers. Believing Gentiles have been graffed in amongst believing Israelites. Because of this, you separate the elect into different groups. Paul said clearly that it is the election (believers from among the Israelites) not the unbelieving descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob receive the promises. It is this election that the believing Gentile is added to. Gentile believers are no more strangers and foreigners but fellowcitizens with the saints and of the household of God.
You also fail to connect the singular parousia (arrival and continuing presence), epiphania (appearing), and the resurrection/change and rapture all together.
After considering what I can ascertain from your beliefs, I have come to the conclusion that you actually have more things right than the typical pre-tribber. Recognizing roughly the proper location of the rapture and the beginning of the day of the Lord places you far ahead of most. However, your failure to link that which Paul sees at the opening of the fifth seal with the great tribulation forces your misapplication of Christ's words in Matt 24.
Glory be to Jesus Christ
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1 hour ago, OldCoot said:
If it is so well established then why do learned scholars and expositors on all sides still debate it? There are many scripture contexts that suggest there is a removal of the righteous before this period starts, i.e. before the false messiah is revealed. In the Tanakh alone there are many references to this, especially in terms of it occurring before the time of Jacob's Trouble, which is commonly known as the Tribulation Period as acknowledged by many scholars and expositors. And Revelation has over 400 verses that contain over 800 references to passages in the Tanakh. And that only scratches the surface. The entire Bible, especially the Tanakh, has many references. Things are far more complex than some simplistic idea that the timing of these events is well established. Comments such as those seem meant only to shut down any meaningful debate and negate any who disagree. it is a tactic straight out of the worldly political system. Among believers, that is a definite no-no.
I am very much on the record that all of us, including me, probably have some aspect of this subject in error. Even though many can make very good arguments on all sides of the issue.
And it comes into play here..... the only barrier to truth is if one thinks they already have it. And it then becomes an ego game at that point. No one likes to face the possibility they could be wrong. That is human. But spiritually, one has to be open to the possibility. I, for one, have modified my position and tweaked it over my lifetime. Though I still am pre-trib, there are details in the overall structure of that period that I have been forced to modify. But the basic premise of a pre-trib removal of the righteous still remains.
I feel no need to force it down anyone's throat. My friend Lyndon in my local assembly does not hold my view. For some reason he thinks we may actually be in the Tribulation period. We still can discuss these things as friends and brothers and have fun doing it. We both love the Lord. These are non essentials of the faith. We agree on the core principles of the faith that are not in dispute. Eschatology is far too complex to pigeon hole into one neat little box.
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
OC, There is not a single verse of Scripture that suggests the church is removed before the period of unprecedented persecution of the elect takes place. The pre-trib error which also I taught for 30 years involved a misunderstanding of the nature of the great tribulation, thinking that it was the wrath of God on the day of the Lord. The great tribulation and God's wrath on the day of the Lord are separated by the cosmic sign, the first resurrection, and the rapture. We must be removed from the earth to a place of safety before the salvos of God's wrath begins to fall.
The pre-trib deception isn't harmless, it causes one to disregard the warnings Christ gave for our safety. Those under the influence of the pre-trib system see those warnings and have been conditioned to think: "they are not for me, they belong to some other category of believer, or even unbelieving Jews." The warnings are therefore unheaded and like the man who built his house upon the sand when the waters (unprecedented persecution and great deception) come they will be destroyed. The harm that one who professes Christ can suffer is to fall away (be offended at the persecution for the name of Christ) and worship the Beast.
The extent to which this has infected the evangelical churches is that very well known teachers have said that Christians will not be damned if they take the mark of the Beast. Those who say such are dangerous fools and deceivers. They are deceived because they chose not the love of the truth, they rejected the plain sense of Scriptural texts making them subordinate to a fallacious eschatological system. They desire the praise and approval of men more than God.
If you are concerned about my tone, I can't imagine that of Christ or Paul being any less stern.
Glory be to our blessed Saviour Jesus Christ
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9 hours ago, Littlelambseativy said:
I am so sorry that you interpreted what you read incorrectly. The Holy Spirit does not confuse anyone but enlightens. The Rapture is silent except to those left behind. Only those who are born again will hear the shout and trumpet. Jesus comes and meets us in the air... first the dead in Christ then those who are alive ( born again) will meet Him in the air. That is why Jesus referred to His meeting us in the air as a thief in he night.....silent. This starts the Tribulation because the Holy Spirit is removed from earth.
This is not the Second coming. During the second coming His feet touch the earth on the Mount of Olives. There are only two comings one as an infant and the second as the Victor, the Lion of Judah, with angels and the saints following Him on white horses. This begins the Thousand year reign...millennium.
The Holy Spirit is taken out from the earth because He is the Restrainer and those left behind during the following 7 years will have to revert to following the commandments to be found righteous. The Holy Spirit will not be here to indwell anyone. That is why there will be lawlessness. That is why it is better to be found His before theRapture. All before the Tribulation begins. ..a time like has not been seen before. That is why people will willingly accept the Mark of the Beast..
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
I think you need to reread the passages that refer to Christ coming as a thief. You will find that it has nothing to do with it being silent but with it being unexpected by the unbelieving. What level of twisting of the Scriptures will some go to, to prop up a bankrupt eschatological system?
Since you say the Holy Spirit is removed, what spirit indwells the two witnesses or indwells those dear tribulation saints who love not their life even unto death.
Have you learned nothing from the NT.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Justification before God only ever (past, present, and future) is possible through faith in the person and work Jesus Christ alone. Only those in Jesus Christ will ever be partakers of eternal life and the promises made to the fathers.
Whoever is teaching you this foolishness needs to be rebuked.
Many who call themselves Christians today shall be faced with the decision to take the mark of the beast or not. Jesus said many will be offended because of the persecution (Matt 24:10).
I was a pre-tribber for 40 years and I know now that it is absolutely false. We are promised to be spared from God's wrath, but the great tribulation is not God's wrath. You have a rude awakening coming if you are a part of the last generation of the church. Those who have promised you a great escape before persecution comes your way have deceived you.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ
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18 hours ago, iamlamad said:
Let's check out your sound exegesis: The Greek word behind "at hand" was translated as follows:
present (3x), things present (2x), be at hand (1x),
In other words, "present" was the preferred translation.
"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. "
The truth is, they WERE troubled: they were under severe persecution and then somehow they heard that THE DAY had already started and they were IN IT. Some Greek manuscripts say Day of the Lord, and others say Day of Christ. Since in Paul's first letter he used "day of the Lord," I think it is probably what Paul wrote. Anyway, since Christ IS Lord, I think Paul is talking about the Day of the Lord mentioned many times in the Old Testament: the dark day where God destroys the world and the sinners in the world.
If Paul had taught them of a posttrib rapture, and they thought they were IN the trib, why on earth would they be troubled by the news? They would know they just had to wait out the rest of the 7 years. In other words, if Paul had taught them a post trib rapture - then this text makes NO SENSE.
On the other hand, if Paul had taught them that the rapture would come before the Day of the Lord, and then they heard they were IN the day of the Lord, it is easy to see why they were troubled: either Paul was wrong or they had MISSED the rapture.
Therefore in this case a pretrib rapture fits the text far better than any other time of the rapture.
Why set up a strawman? Who ever said the rapture would be "secret?" There will be a loud trumpet sound, then a loud shout of our Lord. I suspect the world will hear these things but not know what they are hearing. However, I do suspect that it will pretty much be invisible: the moment we are changed, perhaps we disappear. John does not tell us so we cannot know for sure.
Such a pre-trib rapture has no support from the text I guess just good exegesis is not enough: you have to add such nonsense as this to make your point. A better way to make your point would be to say "I can find no textual support for a pretrib rapture." I could say exactly the same: I can find no textual support for a posttrib rapture. Let's just quit with the pokes and jabs and teach scripture as we understand it: will you agree?
What do you mean by "the trib?" Do you mean the 70th week of Daniel?
The pretrib rapture IS supported by 1 Thes. chapter 5 and by Revelation showing the great crowd, too large to number, in heaven before John has started the 70th week.
The pretrib is further supported by the marriage and supper IN HEAVEN before Christ descends to earth to the Battle of Armageddon. This text also destroys a post trib rapture.
The pretrib rapture is further supported by 2 thes 2, correctly understood.
As you say, Glory be to the wonderful name of Jesus!
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
Mr. Mad, First let me say that the timing for the rapture being after the great tribulation but before the wrath of God is poured out in the day of the Lord is well established from a great number of texts. No eschatological teaching that I hold is determined by the proper interpretation of what was meant by Paul's use of en-is'-tay-mee at the end of 2Thes 2:2. However, the Scripture testifying that the appearing of Christ for His saints follows the great tribulation is a certainty that informs us about what Paul initialy taught the Thessalonians concerning Christ's return. When we know Paul's teaching concerning the events that will precede the parousia of Christ it is easy to see how the Thessalonians thought the severe persecution that they were facing was the great tribulation.
The choice of "at hand" (its meaning in that day being near in time or distance) for the English translation of en-is'-tay-mee tells us what the translators believed Paul was trying to communicate. At hand fit properly with the context of the Thessalonians being in distress thinking that they were going through the great tribulation. Jesus taught that the unprecedented persecution precedes His return. Only after the great tribulation begins will it be so that the parousia (coming) of Christ and our gathering to Him will be near in time. The great tribulation begins when the man of sin is revealed in the temple shewing himself to be God after which there will be a notable falling away. These are the conditions that Paul says must be met before the day of Christ will be near in time.
Mr. Mad, it appears that I have caught you being deceptive by ommiting information which speaks contrary to your idea of the meaning of (en-is'-tay-mee) which is translated at hand. You conveniently left out Paul's use of the word to Timothy. Here Paul uses ἐνστήσονται translated "shall come". A. T. Robertson (Possibly the most respected NT Greek Schollar of our time) says concerning it: "Future middle of enistēmi (intransitive use), old verb, to stand on or be at hand, as in 2Th 2:2." He further says concerning the use of en-is'-tay-mee in 2Thes 2:2: "Perfect active indicative of enistēmi, old verb, to place in, but intransitive in this tense to stand in or at or near. So “is imminent” (Lightfoot)."
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
You're free to believe what you want, but indeed, the Thessalonians, according to Paul's teachings, believed that the GT would come before the day of Christ. Paul was saying that they were not in the great tribulation, the period of time in which the day of Christ will be at hand.
Man's definition of the trib - The trib is a seven year period in which God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. This seven year period is said to be the day of the Lord. In this period God uses the Beast as an instrument of His wrath. The last 3.5 years contains the most severe portion of God's wrath and is called the great tribulation.
Bible definition of tribulation - The pressure associated with being persecuted for Jesus sake, experiencing God's vengeance in the day of the Lord, or experiencing the hardships common to man. The context determines which it is.
Bible definition of the great tribulation - The unprecedented period of violent persecution of the elect by the Beast and his followers which begins ~3.5 years before Christ's millenial kingdom is set up. It begins with the abomination of desolation which is the defiling of the Jewish Temple by the man of sin. It results in a notable falling away (many shall be offended). It is accompanied by lying signs and wonders. It is cut short to keep some of the elect alive upon the earth. The cosmic which announces Christ's return signals that it is over. The length is unspecified which keeps us from knowing the day or hour of Christ's return. Daniel called it an unprecedented time of trouble. Jeremiah called it Jacob's trouble. Out of it shall the innumerable multitude of Rev 7 come.
Glory be to Jesus Christ
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1 hour ago, iamlamad said:
Now, let's talk TRUTH here! Not man's ideas! The word "apostasia" means to depart, but there is NO INFORMATION as to what is being departed FROM. Therefore it is only man's ideas and human reasoning to say "religious departure." Paul's theme is the departing of the church, not some religious departure. Therefore I disagree. Will you agree: there is always a FIRST use of a word?
Did you ever wonder why Paul wrote, "and now you know?" Why on earth would Paul pen those words - unless he just TOLD THEM?
6 And now ye know what (who) withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
Paul is talking about who or what is doing the restraining - holding back the man of sin. And He tells us NOW YOU KNOW. Why then is it that we have no consensus of opinion about it? Paul KNEW and He told us so we would know. Yet people don't understand.
Make no mistake here: in verse 3b, the man of sin IS REVEALED (In Paul's argument) so logic demands that in verse 3a the one restraining MUST HAVE BEEN "taken out of the way." (the meaning of every verse MUST fit the context of the entire passage.)
If we examine 3a, there is only ONE WORD that could possibly mean something "taken out of the way." It is the word "apostasia." Perhaps you have not studied this word in depth. As a compound word, its simple meaning is a departing. From what Paul does not specify. The question is, CAN this word mean something else? It is a compound word - "apo" and "stasia."
Here is what STrong's says about "apo:
"of separation; of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing,...
of separation of a part from the whole; where of a whole some part is taken
of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed
of a state of separation, that is of distance; physical, of distance of place
At the rapture, will some part of the entire population be taken? You know the answer is YES.
Will those taken be separated by DISTANCE? Again the answer is YES.
The other part of the compound word 'stasia" is where we get "stationary" or "not moving" from.
Putting these two words together then can certainly mean a part of a whole group suddenly moved from where they were to a new location, and it happen so fast, the rest of the whole group seems stationary - not moving.
Therefore I am convinced that Paul's intent is that THE CHURCH (or rather the Holy Spirit working through the church) is the entity doing the restraining. And when the church is "taken out of the way" THEN the man if sin can be revealed.
Perhaps then, this idea is NOT "recent" but is exactly what the first readers of Paul's letter understood. He had a REASON to write, "and now you know." He used a word differently than normal use, and wanted them to go back and read it over and over. He TOLD them who was restraining and that it would be "taken out of the way."
If you think a falling away (from what Paul does not tell us) fits "taken out of the way" better than the rapture, go for it! If you think a falling away fits the restraining force being removed, go for it. I don't think so.
On the contrary, I am very good with grammar. I think Paul made good sense. I can only imagine WHY Paul wrote this as he did, but my guess is, if Roman's read it, Paul wanted them to be clueless about the rapture. He wrote it so that ONLY those in Thes. that heard him teach and read his first letter would get it.
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
Mr. Mad, here is a brief exposition of the 2Thes 2 text. Notice the difference between sound exegesis and what you present.
Paul says concerning Christ’s coming and the resurrection/rapture don’t be shaken or troubled that it, the day of Christ, is at hand or near in time.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
The English expression “is at hand” was given by the translators to represent the Greek word ἐνέστηκεν from the root ἐνίστημι (enistēmi) in this context. The expression “at hand” was defined in that day as "near in time or not distant". The translation communicates that Paul said the day of Christ was not near in time. The persecution that they were experiencing as testified by 1Thes and 2Thes 1 was not that great tribulation that will be taking place just prior to Christ's return. His return and the following events are the day of Christ
Notice that there is nothing said in the text about them “thinking that they missed the rapture”. That is an extrapolation of those who interject of a secret rapture before the beginning of the week into the text. Such a pre-trib rapture has no support from the text so it must be added to nearly every statement to brainwash folks into thinking that it is the orthodox teaching of the Scriptures.
The day of Christ is His coming and our gathering unto Him. It is also called the day of the Lord because immediately after He arrives and the resurrection/rapture takes place He begins to pour out His fierce wrath upon the unbelieving Beast worshiping earth dwellers in the form of the trumpet and vial judgements.
Paul says here that the good work of partnership in the Gospel will be performed until the day of Jesus Christ.
Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Paul says we are to be sincere and without offence till we see Christ. The day of Jesus Christ is when we see Him.
Php 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Then Paul tells them that two things must happen before that day (the second coming [parousia] and resurrection/rapture) can come: a falling away and the revelation of the man of sin.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
The falling away is described in detail by Christ in the Olivet Discourse. In Christ’s dealing with the period of unprecedented persecution and deception that takes place prior to His coming He says that many will be offended (fall away). The falling away is due to the severe persecution, false Christs, false prophets, and supernatural deceptions. Jesus said that the deception will be so great that if it were possible even the truly elect would be deceived.
The revelation of the man of sin will involve the Antichrist (Beast) in the Temple demanding to be worshiped as God. Jesus referred to this as the start of the great tribulation (Matt 25:15, 21) which Daniel testified will take place in the middle of the week (Dan 9:27).
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
This is none other than the Beast that arises out of the sea (Rev 13), because it is he that worship is directed toward on behalf of the Dragon. There is no Scriptural indication that the false prophet receives worship on behalf of the Dragon.
Paul says that he told the Thessalonians these things before.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
What Paul says in verse 6 can be interpreted in two ways so that both statements are equally true. Although I know Paul had one intended meaning, I cannot be certain which of the two is the one he intended.
The first is that the Thessalonians now know what is keeping the Antichrist from being revealed until it is the Antichrist’s time. The second is that the Thessalonians now (henceforth) know (because Paul just told them in verse 3) what is preventing the revelation of Christ (the day of Christ), the falling away and the revelation of the man of sin must come first. Both statements are true, but I cannot be certain which Paul meant. It is difficult to identify the subject of the pronouns that Paul uses. There is also something or someone preventing both Christ’s day from being at hand and the revelation of the Beast. The use of “what” also points towards it referring to Christ. Much writing could easily be devoted to these two interpretations, but I will not do that here. The important thing is to recognize that both statements are true, whichever Paul meant.
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
In verse 7 the one withholding is a he, not a what. It should be noted that the same Greek word is used for “withholdeth”, “letteth”, and “let”. Each expresses the idea of hindering or restraining. It should also be noted that the word translated “the way” is the Greek word “mesos” which means middle. Additionally, we should consider the unusual translation of “ginomai” in this text. Of the 672 uses of the word in the NT, only once, here in this text, is it translated “be taken”. What does all this mean? It means that we must with great care be diligent to not err concerning who this restrainer of the mystery of iniquity is. Who is presently restraining Satan from giving power unto the man of sin?
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
The restrainer is Michael the archangel that Daniel said would stand up (stand aside) after which would be a time of unparalleled trouble. This unparalleled trouble is that same period of persecution that Jesus called great tribulation.
The revelation of the Beast in the Temple takes place in the middle of the week.
Michael stands aside in the middle of the week. Satan is cast out of heaven by Michael in the middle of the week. The middle is very significant.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:7b … it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Michael is specially equipped to deal with Satan.
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
When Michael casts Satan to the earth in the middle of the week (Rev 12) the Antichrist shall be revealed. His end is to be consumed in the brightness of Christ’s presence.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Satan gives the Beast his power and lying wonders are performed by the False Prophet. Those who choose not the love of the truth are deceived and perish.
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Because they didn’t love, but instead rejected the truth, the earth dwellers will be convinced by the miracles performed by the False Prophet and worship the Beast, receiving his mark and thereby be eternally damned. God gives those, who refuse the truth and love their sins, a lie that they might be damned.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Glory be to Jesus
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4 minutes ago, iamlamad said:
Steve, "lamad" means teacher in Hebrew, or "to teach" or "to learn." I am a teacher. I am lamad. (Just so you know!)
How funny that you imagine the wool has been pulled over my eyes. I am sure it is the reverse.
"The day of the Lord begins after the opening of the sixth seal, but the wrath doesn't begin to fall until later that day after the 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven." What if His wrath is in the earthquake at the 6th seal? Did you read Isaiah 2 about the earthquake as a part of the Day of the Lord - and that the DAY is a day of His wrath? Therefore I think His wrath begins at the earthquake. However, this is a very minor point.
At Christ's appearing, after the cosmic sign which John sees upon the opening of the sixth seal, the earth dwellers begin to hide and the saints are resurrected/changed and raptured. Ah! So you have a coming at the 6th seal? And you think the wool is over my eyes? Can we just believe Revelation as written? His coming for the rapture? Or His coming for Armageddon? I am guessing you mean His coming for the rapture.
Again we are very close in our belief here: I think His coming for the rapture is a moment BEFORE the 6th seal, and that the great earthquake at the 6th seal will be caused by the dead in Christ rising. In Matthew 27 we read "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened..." I see that as a precedent: that when God raises those long dead from the grave, it will CAUSE an earthquake. Some of the dead in Christ will have been dead almost 2000 years. Their atoms or quarks will be scattered - perhaps for miles. When God brings those particles that once made up the bodies of the saints - it will cause a mighty earthquake.
Paul tells us that a moment after the dead in Christ rise: two groups of people get two very different results: those living in the light of the Gospel get raptured, and so are saved from the sudden destruction earthquake. But those living in the darkness are left behind and cannot escape, for this is a worldwide earthquake.
Then Paul tells us this sudden destruction is the start of God's wrath - and that we won't be here - no appointments set. Paul hints strongly that this wrath and destruction are the start of the Day of the Lord. All this fits perfectly with Revelation. John tells us that the 5th seal are the martyrs of the church age - and they are told they must wait for the final number of martyrs: in other words, judgment will not come until the very last church age martyr will be killed. In other words, those under the altar will just have to wait for the rapture that will end the church age. What does John say next? He starts the 6th seal which is judgment.
In other words, the church has been waiting between the 5th and 6th seals all this time! The Dead in Christ will suddenly rise, an earthquake will begin, but those alive and in Christ will be caught up just as they feel the ground begin to shake. They get salvation, while those left behind cannot escape the start of God's wrath.
Therefore I think His coming for the rapture will be a moment BEFORE the the 6th seal, not during and not after. Again, we are close.
Did you forget that the comic signs at the 6th seal are for the DAY, not for the rapture? Or do you insist that the rapture and the DAY are the same thing? When we read about the Day of the Lord in the Old Testament, it simply does not fit the rapture. It is a DARK day of wrath. I think Paul tells us the rapture will TRIGGER the DAY.
The day of the Lord begins with Christ's glorious appearing, the wrath falls after He has raptured the church and sealed the 144,000. I wonder: Can you find anything in Paul's writings of the rapture that His coming FOR His bride will be a glorious appearing except the verse in Titus? I think He will be hidden in a cloud! Yes, He will certainly appear glorious to the saints who are caught up, but I don't think the world will see Him. However, we cannot be dogmatic on this as the bible does not make it clear. Do YOU think the world will see Him at the rapture? Do you think the world will see us leave?
the wrath falls after He has raptured the church and sealed the 144,000. John shows us that the earthquake will come before the first trumpet. The question then is the earthquake the opening salvo of His wrath? I think it is.
As I see chapter 7, I liken it to a play with different acts and the closing curtain between the acts of the play. What happens when the curtain closes? They players REARRANGE the set to fit the next act. Since the 7th seal officially opens the 70th week of Daniel, I see chapter 7 as God rearranging the set to fit the next act: the 70th week. In the mind of God, TWO events must be accomplished before that 7th seal is opened: the church MUST be safely seen in heaven, and the 144,000 must be sealed for their protection. Again we seem very close.
Do you believe that the sun will turn dark and the moon appear red before the Day of the Lord begins? That is what Joel says! Since I am a stickler for sticking to John's chronology, it seems he shows the earthquake first, and THEN the signs in the sun and moon. Perhaps they happen at the same time. However, it seems to follow Joel, the DAY then MUST come after the earthquake.....which means you are probably right here. I may have to change my thinking. Thanks. Perhaps then THE DAY and the 70th week start simultaneously at the 7th seal.
However, I think you have it backwards: His coming for the rapture will be the trigger for the start of the DAY.
At Christ's appearing, after the cosmic sign which John sees upon the opening of the sixth seal, the earth dwellers begin to hide and the saints are resurrected/changed and raptured. I don't think so. I am still not convinced that the world actually SEES his face. how can they when He is hidden in a cloud of glory? There is no verse anywhere that gives cosmic signs as a sign of the rapture! It is the sign for the DAY. Paul does mention THE DAY just 3 verses after His classic rapture verse of 1 Thes. 4:17 I take that as sowing the rapture will be the trigger for the DAY. If you read Isaiah 2, the people are scared out of their wits because of the earthquake - not because they actually SEE God. However, Isaiah does write, "for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty." Perhaps then He WILL BE visible at the rapture. Could they just be imagining His glory?
I still think the dead in Christ rising will start this whole scenario, causing the great earthquake: Paul's sudden destruction. THEN, after those alive have been raptured, then the signs in the sun and moon. In other words, there will be NO SIGN to give a hint of when the dead in Christ rise.
"Earth dwellers" (they that dwell upon the earth) is a technical term for those unbelieving Beast worshipers who persecute the elect. The problem is, at the 6th seal, John has not yet started the 70th week, much less arrived at the days of GT that will come in the second half of the week. I too try to be very careful with my words. But I do write things occasionally that I wish I had written better.
when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, I think Paul is talking about His coming to the Battle of Armageddon. Our rest will not be complete until the wicked are judged.
You did well with this post - until to talked about wool! ?
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
Concerning the day of Christ (the Lord) and the rapture, it really isn't that hard. Jesus told His disciples that He would come again and receive them unto Himself. Paul calls this coming again the parousia in 1Thes 4:15. Jesus is asked by His disciples "what shall be the sign of thy parousia"? Jesus tells them of the condition of the world and the church (His followers) prior to His parousia. He tells them of the cosmic sign which will indicate that their redemption is nigh.
The future coming (parousia, which means arrival and continuing presence) of Christ only happens once. It is made up of His arrival and all that follows, even His destruction of the Antichrist at Armageddon which takes place much later in the day of the Lord. Revelation 19 is not describing Christ's arrival, His appearing gloriously in the clouds with the mighty Angels for every eye to see (Rev 1:7), it is describing His victory over the Beast and the nations which follow him.
The church always taught one future coming (parousia) as witnessed by Paul in Heb 9:28 and elsewhere. The idea of two future parousias is not only foreign to Scripture, it is practically non-existent in church history prior to JND. No wonder you are so confused, Jesus didn't say I'm going to come again and again.
The parousia will end the unprecedented persecution of the saints. But it appears that most of the Saints will have been martyred by then.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Jesus comes in the second half of the week to end the great tribulation by rescuing those of us who are alive and remain after which He begins to pour out His wrath upon the earth dwellers.
Glory be to the Lamb
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22 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:
I would add the following scriptures about the righteous judgment of God v
Verse list:
1Pe 4:12-19 KJV Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
Rom 2:5-7 KJV But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
2Th 1:4-5 KJV So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:*[[Luk 22:18]] KJV* For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
*[[2Ti 4:1]] KJV* I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Blessings
The PuP
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
PuP, the suffering that we have been appointed unto according to the will of God is not God's day of the Lord wrath.
Praise Jesus
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23 minutes ago, iamlamad said:
I see a problem: I am amazed you don't see it:
"except there come a falling away first"
you said:
"the antichrist comes first"
"the abomonation of desolation comes first"
"the great falling away comes first"
Why not just stick with what Paul wrote? Did you consider the CONTEXT? Paul tells us there is someone restraining the man of sin, preventing him from being revealed (As the Beast) before the proper time. Paul goes on to say that at the right time, the one restraining will be "taken out of the way." If we look close in verse 3, we see that the one restraining HAS BEEN "taken out of the way" for the man of sin IS revealed.
Therefore in the first part of verse 3 there MUST BE a hint of something "taken out of the way." It can only be hidden in Paul's use of the word "apostasy." The first several translations into English rendered that word"departing." Here is Coverdale example:
"3 Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,"
Therefore It is only ONE THING that comes first, as the one restraining is "taken out of the way" or is departing. Notice that it is not just any departing, it is THE departing - a very significant one. What is Paul's THEME for this passage? It is the rapture of the church or the "gathering." Paul is telling us that it is the CHURCH (the Holy Spirit working through the church) that is the restraining force - and when the church is "taken out of the way," then the man if sin will be revealed.
The truth then is that Paul preached to them exactly what we read in 1 Thes: that the rapture will come just before the wrath of God in the start of the DAY of the Lord. And John shows us that the DAY starts before the entire 70th week starts - so absolutely before the midpoint when the man of sin is revealed.
Did you not read in Daniel 9 that the 70th week is for HIS PEOPLE: the Jews and Hebrews? Did you not read in Daniel 12 that God's purpose for the 70th week is to completely shatter the power of Israel so that they will have no choice but to trust in God? God has no reason to subject the church to His wrath. Paul makes that clear. This is GOOD news, not bad, and it is comforting. That is why Paul told us to comfort one another: we are NOT going through God's wrath upon the Jews and an unrepentant world.
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
Mr. Mad, apostasia refers to a religious departure, not the rapture. It is that which Jesus spoke of in Matt 24:10 "and many shall be offended" when they face severe persecution. There is not a single reference in all of the known historic Koine Greek literature where apostasia is used to communicate a physical departure. Every use communicated either a religious or political departure. The KJV translators recognized the historic teaching of the church concerning apostasia and appropriately translated it "falling away" as to leave no ambiguity concerning its meaning.
The idea that this use of apostasia is the rapture is very recent. It is the latest attempt of the secret rapturists to provide some kind of support for the bankrupt pre-trib model for the rapture.
You have abandoned all use of grammar in your reading of the 2Thes 2 text. Try again.
Glory be to Jesus Christ
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9 hours ago, iamlamad said:
Steve, I would how you came up with this. I don't think it is scriptural at all. God's wrath begins at the 6th seal and continues on throught the entire week, culminating in the vials. And Jesus surely has wrath when He descends to the battle of Armageddon. Therefore God's wrath goes from Rev. chapter 6 (the 6th seal) all the way to Rev. 19.
Do the Jews dwell on the earth? You know they do.
Do the nations dwell on the earth? You know they do.
The Old Covenant tells us that the DAY is to destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth. But we know God's plan will be the rescue 1/3 of the Jews (Hebrews) while He is destroying the earth and the sinners on the earth.
1Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
Mr. Mad, (I-am-la (French for "the")-mad, I'm sorry, but that is what I think when I see that name) what I presented is exactly what one will conclude when reading the text without being told ahead of time what to think about it.
It is true that God's wrath begins after the 6th seal at the opening of the seventh and blowing of the first trumpet and continues on throughout the rest of the week, culminating in the vials. And Jesus surely has wrath when He descends to the battle of Armageddon. Therefore God's wrath goes from Rev. chapter 8 (the 1st trumpet) all the way to Rev. 19.
The day of the Lord begins after the opening of the sixth seal, but the wrath doesn't begin to fall until later that day after the 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven. At Christ's appearing, after the cosmic sign which John sees upon the opening of the sixth seal, the earth dwellers begin to hide and the saints are resurrected/changed and raptured. The day of the Lord begins with Christ's glorious appearing, the wrath falls after He has raptured the church and sealed the 144,000.
"Earth dwellers" (they that dwell upon the earth) is a technical term for those unbelieving Beast worshipers who persecute the elect. I try to be very intentional with every word I use, although undoubtedly there are times I misspeak.
Many have wrong ideas about various terms used in eschatological passages. For instance, in Koine Greek, there are two primary words which communicate the idea of persecution. First, there is diōkō and its various forms which emphasize the fleeing or being pursued aspect of persecution. An example of this is:
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
The second Koine Greek word thlibō or thlipsis communicates the pressure aspect of persecution. An example of it is:
Act 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.
It is thlipsis that Jesus uses in Matt 24.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (thlipsis), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (thlipsis) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
It is thlibō and thlipsis that Paul uses when writing to the Thessalonians.
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation (thlipsis) to them that trouble (thlibō ) you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled (thlibō ) rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,In this text, Paul mentions both the persecution that the elect suffers and the persecution (trouble, tribulation) that God will bring upon those who persecuted us.
This isn't that difficult. You just have to accept the fact the the wool has been pulled over your eyes in the past and now you need to embrace the truth.
Glory be unto Jesus Christ the Lord
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7 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:
You said, "Christians are rescued at the 6th seal and Joel 2:31". Yes, the rapture BEFORE the tribulation.
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
DSA, it depends what you mean by tribulation. If you are referring to Paul's use of it in 2Thes 1:6 then you are correct. If you are referring to Christ's use of it in Matt 24 then you are wrong. My previous post explains what should be the obvious difference between the two.
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:Tribulation upon the beast worshipers after the rapture
Tribulation upon the elect before the rapture
Glory to Jesus Christ
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4 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:
First, I agree that God is working with Jews during the Church Age, in fact, I would argue that God is working with the entire world - including, Muslims, Buddhists, Catholics, Mormons, Adventists, and yes, even Atheists. The point is NOT that Jews and Christians are separate, or that God has only focused His attention on the Church in last 2000 years. You said Michael has been standing up protecting the Jewish remnant (must be the remnant, because they were nearly wiped out) since the first century. That would mean that Dan. 12:1 then comes right after the events of the first century (AoD, etc..) - I know you do NOT agree with that, and that is why you have to invent the idea of Michael "standing aside" during the tribulation period. I and others have shown you wrong on the idea of "standing aside".
Do you even believe that there will be a literal 1000 years that is specifically in place for the Jewish people and NOT the church (which is the New Jerusalem)?
You said.." "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." Even though Israel is elect in the sense that God chose them from among all the other nations to be a people to bear His name, it is only those who believed among that nation who are truly the elect."
You are saying the SAME thing we are with one exception.... You are saying BOTH at the same time. Israel (the Jews) are a "chosen people" from all the nations in the world, AND you are also saying "elect" ONLY refers to those who accept Jesus. In your post, you said chosen and elect are the SAME thing, but only when you say so.
You used, Matt. 24 &25 as well as parallel accounts in Mark and Luke, but all those references would be attached to Jews and NOT the Church Age believers if one understands that all those refer to events in the first century (when the "Church" was notably Jewish) and the tribulation period (after the Church is gone). Now, we see why you and others are so stiff-necked on the AoD and the 70th week debate.
When the "elect" are gathered, they are gathered by whom? The "angels"!
When the rapture occurs, believers are gathered by whom? Jesus!
These are two separate events in the Bible.
You mentioned Rev. 12 and Satan being cast down. Yes, the "elect" are gathered at the end of the tribulation as all ready shown.
You said, "Christians are rescued at the 6th seal and Joel 2:31". Yes, the rapture BEFORE the tribulation.
You said the elect and the chosen are the same. YES, Jesus, the apostles, and believing Jews are ALL examples of Jewish believers who are given a special calling or purpose by God.
You said non-believing Jews are "blinded" and "deceivable", correct, but the believing Jews are NOT - just like believing gentiles.
Luke 18:7 actually does refer to Jews and not Christians as you propose.
All other NT mentions are spoken to believing Jews who are part of the generation that will experience the horrors of 70ad - UNLESS THEY KNEW WHAT WAS COMING AND FLED TO THE MOUNTAINS right away. We have shown this to you before, but you refuse to accept the truth. The only people who survived the 70ad attack were Christians (believing Jews).
You left out some key verses =
Isa. 45:3 "And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the Lord, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me."
---Isa. 57 is the rapture and start of the tribulation--
--By this point in ch. 65, God is speaking of the Millennium and the promises made to Israel (not the Church) --
Isa 65:8 "Thus saith the Lord, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all. (great winepress)
9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there. ("servants" = Christians. We are the first... they are the last)
10 And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.
Isa 65:22 "They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands." (Millennial promises for the JEWS)
Yes, Many are called (Christians), but few are chosen (set apart for a specific purpose). The nation of Israel and the Jewish believers are indeed set apart for a specific and important purpose AFTER the true believers are GONE and before the final tribulation begins. False teachers & prophets will still be here after the rapture and they will say that "in 3.5 years - the A/C will come to Jerusalem and proclaim to be the Messiah".
The 70th week is vitally important to make sure you have the calculations correct! Prove it to me and I will be with you and even "un-publish" my book! Will any of you authors out there make that claim also?
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
DSA, I didn't leave anything out. I showed you all the NT uses of elect, with the intention of showing you that only the believing will be partakers of the promises given to the fathers. Being an unbelieving Israelite ultimately profits nothing.
Let's define some terms. When saying tribulation what are you referring to? Do you believe that there is a 7 year period of cataclysmic events that you call the tribulation?
I believe in two future periods of tribulation as defined by the Scriptures. One where we are violently persecuted and one where are persecutors receive God's wrath poured out without mixture.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (thlipsis), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended (fall away), and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
...
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
...
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
...
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:The word tribulation in Matt 24 is translated from "thlipsis" which refers to pressure, which is also translated as afflicted, anguish, burdened, persecution, and trouble. The tribulation that Christ speaks of in Matt 24 is the unprecedented persecution of the elect and Israel by the Beast. Jesus begins to describe it in verse 9 and continues to provide details until verse 29 when He speaks of the cosmic sign which He says comes immediately after it. This great tribulation is not the period of God's wrath, the period of God's wrath is the tribulation by God upon the earth dwellers. The great tribulation is the future unparalleled period of the persecution of Christians and Jews that takes place before Christ's parousia.
Paul explains what will end the persecution of the Church. It is Christ's return in vengeance upon those who will have been persecuting us. They will face tribulation from the Almighty at that time.
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.We rest from persecution at Christ's coming (parousia).
Biblically there are two coming tribulation periods. The great tribulation focused upon those who are Christ's and the day of the Lord focussed upon those who worship the Beast, the earth dwellers.
DSA, you are wrong about Luke 18:7. Do your home work.
Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?Notice that the context is the coming (parousia) of Christ. Whom did John witness crying out the Lord to avenge their blood upon those who dwell upon the earth (their persecutors)?
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.The fifth seal comes before the sixth which records the cosmic sign and the arrival of Christ initiating the day of the Lord.
The further context of Luke 18:1-7 finds it coming on the heels of Luke 17 where Christ characterizes the surprise nature of His return to the unbelieving earth dwellers.
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.There He indicates that the day of our rescue (rapture) is the day His wrath begins to fall upon the earth dwellers.
Glory be to Jesus Christ
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11 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:
The passages you mentioned definitely refer to the resurrection at the 2nd coming (end of the tribulation), so this would be an important thing to examine.
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
DSA, there is only one future coming (parousia) of Christ, not two separated by seven years. That is an artificial construct given you by those who promote the secret rapture. JND began this foolishness of teaching two future comings. That is not what the Scriptures teach nor is it the historic belief of the true church.
As an exercise, look at the use of the Greek word "parousia" (coming, meaning arrival and continuing presence) and notice that it is used in the context of the rapture and the return of Christ with all His angels in glory. Also, notice that it means something different than "erchomai" (coming, an approach).
Also, notice that you find the day of the Lord in context with the rapture, in fact the revelation of Christ in all his glory begins the day of the Lord. The first act of the day of the Lord is to resurrect/change and remove (rapture) His elect from the earth so that He can begin to pour out His wrath upon the earth dwellers with the first trumpet judgement.
All praise, honour and glory be unto Jesus Christ
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11 hours ago, DonkeySpeaksAgain said:
Hi Steve,
I was wondering about the word "elect" in relation to the Church. Have you looked at how "elect" is used throughout the Bible? And are you sure that it refers to Christians and NOT Jews? The passages you mentioned definitely refer to the resurrection at the 2nd coming (end of the tribulation), so this would be an important thing to examine.
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
DSA, I and others have Biblically answered this question about the elect many times on this forum. If any will simply set aside the artificial system of understanding the eschaton that they were given by men and let the Scriptures speak they will see that the elect in this context is consistent with the use of elect for the church throughout the NT.
I gave you this information in the topic 3 1/2 year trib/ not 7. I will present it again with some additional info.
DSA, it has long been the need and error of pre-tribbers to insist that the elect of the Olivet Discourse are Jews. From the days of JND they have taught this foolishness to displace the clear statements of Christ which contradict the idea of a secret rapture. They say that God doesn't work with the Jews and the Church at the same time.
That God doesn't work with Israel while the church is around is a proposition that is easily refuted. First, we know that the church (the believing Jews and believing Gentiles in one body [Christ], which was so well explained by Paul as recorded in Eph 2:11-3:12) began at the giving of the promise of the Father (the Holy Spirit to dwell in the believer) on Pentecost. Some have other ideas concerning when it began, however, none of them change the fact that at the beginning the church was made up of Jews. It wasn't until years later that Peter saw salvation come to Cornelius's household, being the first Gentile converts of record. (Some will protest that the Ethiopian eunuch is the first Gentile added to the body of Christ. It makes little difference concerning the point I'm making.)
Fact 1) The church started out with Jews exclusively. The church didn't begin with Gentiles it began with Jews.
God has never stopped dealing with the Jews. It is true, that as a nation they have rejected their Messiah and that they, in part, have been forensically blinded. But, God is still saving Jews. In fact, Paul tells us that God is provoking them to jealousy through the salvation of the Gentiles who believe upon Christ. So, God is active spiritually with a remnant of believing Jews. He has also been dealing with them in other ways. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD was a fulfilment of the judgement due them because they didn't recognize the arrival of their Messiah (Luke 19:42-44). God's hand is still active in working out the fulfilment of the promises made to the Fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Rom 11:28)) which surely involves the restoration of the Jews to their land, even though they remain in unbelief. Nearly all pre-tribbers believe that God's hand was in the restoration of the nation of Israel in this last century. Daniel 12:1 makes it clear that Michael has been active in the preservation of the Israelite people all these centuries that they have been scattered to the four winds, and the same passage lets us know that at some future point he (Michael) will stand aside at which time there will be unprecedented persecution upon them.
Fact 2) God is still working with the Jews during this church age even though many of them, through unbelief, have been blinded.
Paul tells us explicitly that there will come a day when Israel will no longer be under this forensic blindness. That day is when the last Gentile is added to the Body of Christ (fullness of the Gentiles be come in, Rom 11:25-26). When these remaining Jews see the glorified Christ, when they look upon Him whom they had pierced, they shall believe and turn to Christ as a nation, and He will be their strong Saviour. However, Zechariah tells us that two-thirds of the inhabitants of Israel will be killed first and the remainder refined in the fire. But after this all Israel will be saved, all of them will eventually follow Christ. This time of unprecedented persecution which makes them ready to receive Jesus, Jeremiah called "Jacob's trouble." Dan 12:1 identifies it as an unprecedented time of persecution (trouble) upon God's people. Jesus called it great tribulation (thlipsis = persecution), that is unprecedented violent persecution upon the elect for Jesus' name's sake (Matt 24:9-24). Jesus makes it clear that this unparalleled persecution is upon those who follow Him, the elect (Matt 24:9, 22, 24).
The word elect is used many times in the New Testament and to whom it refers is determined by the context. Paul, in speaking to the believers in Rome (Jew and Gentile) says "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."(Rom 8:33) Throughout the New Testament, the primary use of the word elect refers to believers in Christ. This includes both believing Jews and believing Gentiles who make up the Body of Christ, the church. In Romans 11:7 Paul distinguishes Israel, which believed not, from the elect which believed. "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." Even though Israel is elect in the sense that God chose them from among all the other nations to be a people to bear His name, it is only those who believed among that nation who are truly the elect.
It is also true that God, having removed the unbelieving natural branches from the root (the fathers to whom the promises were made), graffed in among the believing branches of Israel branches from the wild olive tree. These branches from the wild olive tree are Gentiles who have responded to the gospel and have been placed into Christ by the Holy Spirit. The promises of the new covenant are through the root to the branches which are both Jew and Gentile believers. Today the elect are those who are in Christ.
Fact 3) The elect are believing Jews and believing Gentiles in the body of Christ.
The word elect is used 3 times in Matthew 24, each time it refers to believers in Jesus Christ. We see the nature of those who are violently persecuted in verse 9, where we read: "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." It is for Christ's name sake that these are being persecuted. These persecuted saints are Christians. Careful attention to the spatial language and connecting adverbs used by Christ as recorded in Matthew 24 will make it clear that in verse 9 He begins to speak of the period of unprecedented persecution and continues to refer to aspects of it until verse 29.
In verse 15 Jesus gives further details concerning the persecution He began to speak of in verse 9. We know this by the use of "therefore" in verse 15. He says the unprecedented persecution begins when the rebuilt temple is defiled (abomination of desolation) in the middle of the week (Dan 9:27) by the revelation of the man of sin (the Beast) (2Thes 2:3-4). He says to the inhabitants of Judaea that when they see that happen, to flee. Most prophetic statements of the Scriptures are centered around Jerusalem in Judaea, so we would expect Christ's warnings to be centered there. However, Rev 13 makes it clear that this persecution will be world-wide.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:Jesus further describes the severity and scope of this persecution saying that it is unprecedented. It is here that the familiar name "great tribulation" is given this period of persecution of the saints. The Greek word translated tribulation is "thlipsis." It is the same word that is translated afflicted in verse 9. It means pressure, and, in this context, it refers to the crushing weight of violent persecution.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
He says that it is so violent that it will threaten to extinguish every believer form off the earth. To save some of the elect (believers) alive upon the earth, He says, those days are cut short. We should note that this is the first use of the word elect in the account. We see that it is the elect who are being killed in the unparalleled persecution. Remember, from verse 9, those that are being persecuted unto death are persecuted for the name of Christ. These elect, are not unbelieving Israel, they are us, the saints of God, the church.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
Again, Jesus warns of false Christs, and the lying wonders that they will use to deceive those who profess Christ. He says the deception will be so great that if it were possible even the true believer (the very elect) would be deceived. This is the second use of elect in the text. Here Jesus implies that the true elect cannot be deceived by the signs and wonders done by the false prophet. However, unbelieving Israel is still in blindness because the fullness of the Gentiles is not yet come in. Rev 7:9-17 describes an innumerable multitude of primarily Gentiles that came out of great tribulation. These are said to be saved just as we are, in the blood of the Lamb. If God is still calling out a people for His name from among the Gentiles during the great tribulation than Israel still remains forensically blinded (Rom 11:25). Therefore, the elect, who cannot be deceived, must be the Church.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.The age-old adage is, “to be forewarned is to be forearmed”. With these warnings Christ has armed us against deception, specifically that deception related to His arrival at His parousia. He says that His coming (parousia) will be unmistakable, as unmistakable as the smell of the dead to carrion eating birds.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.Jesus then tells us what event signals that the unprecedented persecution is over. It is an identifiable cosmic sign, the very sign that Joel and other prophets said would precede the day of the Lord. Following the cosmic sign, the whole world will see the wonder of Christ in the atmospheric heaven as He comes with His holy angels. The earth dwellers will mourn in fear, having been caught unawares, like a thief in the night catches the unsuspecting home dweller. He will then send His angels to gather His elect, the persecuted, to Him in the clouds.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.Notice that there was not a single mention by Christ of God's wrath in these verses. However, there is much detail concerning the unprecedented persecution of the elect called great tribulation.
Fact 4) The elect of Matthew 24 are Christians.
The elect who are being afflicted (thlipsis) and killed are experiencing such because of their identification with Jesus Christ.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Fact 5) The great tribulation is not the wrath of God, it is the wrath of Satan, through the Beast upon the elect.
When Satan is cast out of Heaven in the midst of the week he focuses his greatest expression of wrath upon the elect and Israel
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The wrath of God will not fall upon the earth-dwellers until after the period of unprecedented persecution of the elect is cut short by Christ's return to rescue (resurrect and rapture) His elect. The rescue is signaled by the cosmic sign of Joel 2:31 as Jesus said in Matt 24:29 and as John witnessed when the sixth seal is opened.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Every elect Jew today is a part of the Body of Christ, as is every Gentile believer. The church is the elect, the church is the chosen. The church is made up of all true believers in Jesus Christ. The elect are all of the true believers.
In the New Testament:
There are elect angels
(1Ti 5:21) I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
Jesus is said to be elect or chosen
(Luk 23:35) And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
(1Pe 2:4) To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
(1Pe 2:6) Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
John wrote to the elect lady and spoke of an elect sister
(2Jn 1:1) The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
(2Jn 1:13) The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.
The apostles were chosen
(Joh 15:16) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
The church is the elect in the following passages
(These elect in Matt 24 and Mark 13 must be the church because Jesus implies that it is not possible for the very elect to be deceived (Matt 24:24) and Israel remains blind (deceivable) in part until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in and there are still Gentiles (Rev 7:9) being added to Christ in the great tribulation.)
(Mat 24:22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
(Mat 24:24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
(Mat 24:31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(Mar 13:20) And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
(Mar 13:22) For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
(Mar 13:27) And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
(Luk 18:7) And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
(Rom 8:33) Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
(Rom 11:5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (These are Jewish believers who are part of the church)
(Rom 11:7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(Col 3:12) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
(1Th 1:4) Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
(2Ti 2:10) Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
(Tit 1:1) Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
(1Pe 1:2) Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
(Mat 20:16) So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
(Mat 22:14) For many are called, but few are chosen.
(Rom 16:13) Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.
(1Pe 2:9) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
(2Pe 1:10) Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
The chosen here would also include restored Israel
(Rev 17:14) These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Glory be to Jesus Christ
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8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:
Which proves that Joel 2:31 happens during the Wrath of God. The Elect that are gathered are gathered from ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER, lets emphasize the last part of the passage brother.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Not exactly, Jesus does say in Matthew 24 that "THAT GENERATION" which sees all these things come to pass shall not die off until they see Jesus return.
Matt. 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
So that Generation will be the ones who live during the Tribulation, Matthew 24 is to the Jews.
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
O ye whose name I cannot say, you are not doing your homework again. And you said nobody knows eschatology like you do. Ha! Ha! What no response to the correction you received on page 11?
Had you considered the parallel passage in Mark you would have seen that your explanation was deceptive? But maybe you knew that. Since you boast to be a master of prophecy I will not treat you as a novice, but as one attempting to hide the truth from others.
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.Let's emphasize the last part of the passage shall we. "from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven"
As long as there are a few of us on this board who know the truth we will continue to expose falsehood.
Glory be to the Lamb
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7 hours ago, Montana Marv said:
Provide me with one Scripture that reveals the time of the Rapture. Not a description of the Rapture. If one can, they then would then be considered a liar, since it is only God the Father who knows this time for the Rapture (Matt 24:36). And God the Father is not the written or spoken Word. If one can grasp this, then maybe their views will change. Don't look for the time of the Rapture in Jesus Christ the Word, It is not there.
In Christ
Montana Marv
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
MM, Jesus says that He is going to send His angels to gather His elect unto Himself after the tribulation is over. This gathering of the elect He says takes place after the sun, moon, and stars go dark and He arrives in the clouds of heaven for all the world to see.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.I agree that we are not told the day or hour, but we are told of the signs which will signify that it is at hand.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.Jesus says that when we witness the cosmic sign and the associated earthquake we can expect His arrival at any moment. The signs will let us know our rescue is about to happen. If I'm still here I'll be looking up into the heavens for my Saviour.
Your idea, since Jesus is the Word, and He said that only the Father knows the day and hour, that the Scriptures have nothing to say about the time of our rapture, is way off track. Paul said explicitly that we, the elect, the church, are not in darkness that the day should overtake us as a thief.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
The day of our rapture is the day of Christ's arrival and the day His wrath begins to fall upon those who will have been persecuting us.
MM, this isn't rocket science, it just requires one to read and believe what the Scriptures say.
Glory be to the Lord Jesus Christ
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12 hours ago, Revelation Man said:On 2/5/2019 at 9:37 PM, Steve Conley said:
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
There was no way around the fact that a unique cosmic sign would precede the day of the Lord, the period of God's eschatological wrath. The implications of that truth forced me to question all the pillars of pretribulationism.
Which of course means FACE or in the Presence of the Lord's Wrath. So Joel 2:31 means the Sun and Moon will turn DARK in the PRESENCE of he Day of the Lord. This whole relying the English translations without the root word study is where people get off track, then they get all offended when someone points out the meaning of the original Hebrew/Greek etc. We have computers, it's easy for us to go the extra mile.
Any Hebrew Scholar can tell you what that means.
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
At it again are you, providing falsehoods to keep folks in the dark. I would identify you by the fitting name I gave you in the past, but you would cry to the moderator in an attempt to silence me. So, I will address you as the one with the name I cannot use.
You and the Apostle Peter interpret Joel's prophecy differently. Should folks follow the man with the name I cannot use, or should they listen to Peter's divine interpretation of Joel's use of the word "before" as recorded in Acts 2:20. I'll follow Peter.
It is true that the Hebrew word paw-neem' can mean before in the sense of "prior to" or before in the sense of "in the face of" (in front of). Context is the primary driver in the proper interpretation of any word. When there is a difference of opinion concerning which interpretation is correct, we recognize the subjectiveness of the statement. However, with Scripture we have additional assurances when it comes to the interpretation of a text. All Scripture is divinely given and any judgement of it can be counted upon to be true.
It just so happens that Joel's prophecy is quoted by Peter and recorded by Luke in Acts 2:20. There it is recorded in Koine Greek. One thing about those Greeks is that "they had a word for it." The Greek language is much more precise having different words to reflect the various nuances of whatever was being communicated. So, Peter's quotation of Joel's prophecy provides us with a divine interpretation of the word paw-neem'. Does it mean "in the face of" or does it mean "prior to"? What is the Greek word that Peter uses?
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before (prin) that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Peter uses the Greek word "prin" which only means prior to. He could have used "pro-ag'-o" which means before in place or time. He also could have used "pro" meaning in front of.
If the man whose name I can't say is correct Peter would have used "em'-pros-then" which most closely communicates "in the presence of." But he didn't. He, under the direction of the Holy Spirit, said "prin", a time-related word. Peter says "before" in the sense of time, not place.
And you think that you excel all others in eschatological understanding. You don't even do your homework. In your desperation to find standing for that bankrupt pre-tib system, you have become blind to the evidence provided by a simple investigation. When you want a lie long enough God is apt to let you have it. Take this correction as another opportunity God is affording you to embrace the truth. It is written, a wise man loveth reproof. Be wise.
All praise, honour, and glory be to the Lord Jesus Christ.
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8 hours ago, JoeCanada said:
Hi Steve,
Very well laid out. It would be hard to argue against this, but I know that pre-trib will argue it.
In the past, you stated that you were a per-trib teacher for some 30 years (I think that is what you said).
Was there a certain scripture that caused you to re-evaluate your pre-trib position, one that caused you to say "well, this can't be right because".............?
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
Yes Joe, there was a very explicit verse that forced me to understand that the day of the Lord could not begin at the beginning of the week or prior to what John sees when the sixth seal is opened.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
There was no way around the fact that a unique cosmic sign would precede the day of the Lord, the period of God's eschatological wrath. The implications of that truth forced me to question all the pillars of pretribulationism. One after another they fell. But, I was stubborn, not easily moved from a position I held all my life. As long as there was even a single verse that seemed to indicate that there might be a pre-trib rapture, I held out hope. All the other supporting tenants of pretribulationism being exposed as wishful thinking at best, the last verse I had was Rev 3:10.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
The verse clearly said that the faithful Philadelphian church would be kept from the hour of temptation. However, when I recognized who was the focus of the trial I realized that the hour of temptation was the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord, not the great tribulation that is focused upon the elect. The hour of temptation was for the earth dwellers. Earth dwellers is the designation given those unbelievers who worship the Beast and persecute the elect. We see it all through the book of Revelation and even in the Gospels.
After that verse was clearly understood to mean that the church will not be partakers of God's wrath and that it had nothing to do with the period of unprecedented persecution that we, the elect of God, will suffer, I had no more refuge for my pretribulational beliefs. At that point, I submitted to the correction that I had received of the Lord and began to teach the historic faith that was delivered to the Saints by our Lord, the apostles and prophets concerning the day of the Lord, the great tribulation, and the rapture of the church.
I wrote a book detailing my journey to eschatological truth to give to those that I had taught wrong over the years. I led the church that I pastor to these same truths. They were readily embraced and our doctrinal statement was corrected.
God was so gracious in removing the blinders that held me in error.
Glory be to the Father and our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ
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Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
The topic here is "Why pretrib logic fails." On page 114 of the topic "Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture," I began addressing a list of pre-trib misunderstandings. I began with the false teaching of imminence. I will here deal with a few more pre-trib misunderstandings on the list.
How does one defend the indefensible?
You start by stating assumptions as fact. You use these assumptions to build a layered fortress through circular reasoning. This system of circular reasoning, in the minds of the errant, is used to twist even the most explicit of Biblical statements. That which is most plain and clear must mean something different than it obviously says or else the whole system, made up of what is thought to be orthodox truth, collapses. Some of these misunderstandings (I'm being charitable) which are thought to be orthodox are:
1) Imminence, Christ could come secretly at any moment to rapture His church.
2) The seventieth week is the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord.
3) God has to rapture the church before he can deal with the Jews.
4) God uses the Beast as an instrument of His wrath upon the tribulation saints.
5) God's wrath begins with the opening of the first seal.
6) The 144,000 are Jewish evangelists who bring about the greatest revival in history.
7) The great tribulation is for the Jews, the church will not be present.
And there are many more.
These tenants of pretribulationism are all interdependent upon each other. The whole system is built upon misunderstandings and assumed inferences predicated upon those misunderstandings. If one falls, they all fall. But as we have heard concerning some corporations or organizations, "they are too big to fail." So like those, pretribulationism is propped up by denominational leaders and those teachers who would lose face were they to correct their teaching. Many of these, upon being exposed, instead of repenting, double down and go to greater lengths in the wresting of the Scriptures. They are forever finding new, so-called, references to a pre-trib rapture that they can publish in books to satisfy the itching ears of those who love to have it so. The latest of these is "the apostasia = the rapture" false teaching being promoted by House, Woods, Ice, and others.
I will deal with each of these misunderstandings as I have time.
Exposing and correcting the misunderstanding: "The seventieth week is the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord."
The seventieth week and the beginning of the great tribulation (thlipsis)
First, we establish the Biblical basis for the seventieth week and its relationship to the second coming of Christ. It is Christ Himself who ties the seventieth week to His coming (parousia).
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Jesus here refers to a prophecy given by Daniel over 500 years before. Jesus is making it clear that this time period has already been prophesied about. Daniel mentions this abomination of desolation more than once. Let’s look at what he said.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
So that we may grasp the fullness of what we are told concerning this time it is necessary to briefly focus upon the last four verses of Daniel chapter 9. These four verses record one of the most astounding prophecies in all of Scripture. This prophecy has come to be called "Daniel's Seventy Weeks".
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The key to understanding this statement of the angel to Daniel the prophet, as Daniel recorded it, is to properly identify the meaning of the Hebrew word "shaw-boo'-ah" translated with the words "weeks" and "week" in this English translation. Shaw-boo'-ah means a seven or a heptad. The context determines what it is seven of; whether days, or years, or something else. The context here can be shown to refer to years. So, in this prophecy, the word week (shaw-boo'-ah) means seven years. Seventy weeks(sevens) would then be 490 years.
Verse 24 tells us that a period of 70 weeks (490 years) are decreed concerning Israel and Jerusalem and what will be accomplished in those 490 years
Verse 25 gives us the starting date, and timing of two events, the last of which appears to have happened on the 6th of April, 32 AD at the completion of the sixty-ninth week (483 years). This was the very day that Jesus rode into Jerusalem and presented himself as the promised King of the Jews only to be rejected and crucified a few days later.
Verse 26 tells us that Christ is slain for the sins of all mankind sometime after the 483 years were completed. It also tells us of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple which took place in 70 AD. Both of these events take place in an untimed period between the completion of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week. That is the period of time that we are currently in today.
Verse 27 tells us what will happen in the last week (the last seven years). This week is said to begin when the prince that shall come, from verse 26, confirms the covenant with many. This is believed to be the Anti-Christ confirming the covenant with many, which includes the people of Israel. In the middle of this week of seven years (~3.5 years into the last seven years of this age) the Anti-Christ will defile the Temple. Paul provides more details concerning what he actually does to defile it (2Thes 2:3-4).
It is this defiling of a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem that Jesus refers to in Matthew 24:15. It takes place in the middle of the last seven years of this "aeon" or age. Prior to it was the birth pangs or beginning of sorrows that Jesus foretold (Matt 24:4-8). These birth pangs closely correspond to what John the Apostle records that he saw at the opening of the first 3 seals (Rev 6:1-6).
Mat 24:21 For then (when the abomination of desolation takes place vs 15) shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
So, we see that it is Jesus who associates the seventieth week with His return. Jesus presents the abomination of desolation as the notable sign which indicates the beginning of the unprecedented level of persecution of the elect that He called great tribulation (thlipsis). Daniel records when it takes place, in the midst of the week. Therefore, the great tribulation begins in the midst of the week.
Some believe that all seventy weeks have already been fulfilled.
It makes little difference in understanding the events which lead up to Christ’s return whether one understands Daniel's seventy weeks prophecy as I have presented it, the rest of Scripture still points to the fact that the unprecedented persecution of the elect (great tribulation) begins when the Antichrist (Beast, man of sin) defiles the temple and that he continues for only 42 months (Rev 13:5) after which he is defeated by the Lord and cast alive into a lake of fire.
To those who see the seventy weeks as past history, for the sake of being on the same page, when I say seventieth week, I am referring to the last seven years prior to the setting up of Christ's millennial kingdom here upon the earth. Let's get back to the question at hand.
Is the seven years prior to the setting up of the millennial kingdom the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord?
If we work backward from the Beast being cast alive into a lake of fire as described in Revelation 19 we can identify the general time period when God's wrath begins to fall in the last days.
The Beast will overcome the Saints, have authority over all kindreds, tongues, and nations, and continue 42 months.
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.The Dragon gives the Beast his power (authority) and it only lasts 42 months then he is cast into the lake of fire
Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Those who are worshiping the Beast are told that they shall fall under the wrath of God
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.These three verses show that God's wrath is the result of worshiping the Beast. The Beast and those who will worship him are recipients of God's wrath. The Beast is not an instrument of God's wrath. The Beast is an instrument of Satan's wrath. Satan, the Dragon, gives him his power. Satan does this when he and the angels who follow him are cast to the earth by Michael in the middle of the week (~3.5 years before the establishment of the millennial kingdom).
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The saints (holy ones) are recipients of Satan's wrath not God's
Satan persecutes the saints through the Beast, False Prophet, and their followers. This he does in the 3.5 years prior to the setting up of the millennial kingdom. Jesus spoke of this persecution taking place after the beginning of sorrows. He said:
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (thlipsis), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Jesus warns that the real danger is not the physical death and suffering that His followers will go through but the falling away (apostasia) that Paul referenced (being offended and departing from the faith) which is the result of the intense persecution and the great deception. Those who follow the Beast will persecute the elect, but they will be tribulated (thlipsis) for their violence against us when Christ returns. We, the saints, will experience Satan's wrath, but the Beast worshiping earth dwellers will experience the wrath of the Almighty. Paul speaks of this very thing:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.Paul says that the persecuted elect (the church) can rest from tribulation when Christ is revealed with His mighty angels.
Jesus essentially says the same thing. He says that:
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The tribulation of those days, the great tribulation, is cut short (vs 22) as Jesus said it would be by the cosmic sign which announces His arrival at His coming (Parousia). John recorded his divinely inspired expectation of Christ’s coming and there is nothing secret about it just as Jesus said (Mat 24:27-28)
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
He also recorded what he was shown when the sixth seal was opened. It is the cosmic sign which announces Christ’s arrival. Notice that the earth dwellers who will have been worshiping the Beast are hiding because they know that God’s wrath is about to fall upon them.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?John witnessed the cosmic sign which precedes Christ’s coming and the day of the Lord.
Jesus is arriving in the clouds with the holy angels and His wrath will fall upon the Beast worshiping earth-dwellers after He gathers His own unto Himself. The day of wrath has come, the vengeance that the martyred souls under the alter cried out for and were told that they must wait a little season for is about to happen.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.John records these events in precise order (Rev 6-8)
Fifth seal martyrs including those of the great tribulation crying for God’s wrath to fall in vengeance upon those Beast worshipers who persecuted them but are told not yet. At the opening of the sixth seal John sees the cosmic sign that signifies Christ’s arrival is at hand and witnesses the earth-dwellers hiding because they realize God’s wrath is about to fall upon them. The 144,000 Israelites are sealed. The resurrected and rapture church is seen before the throne of God in Heaven. The seventh seal is opened and John witnesses ½ hour of silence in Heaven followed by the blowing of the first trumpet bringing the first stroke of God’s wrath upon the earth-dwellers.
The wrath of God begins with the first trumpet after the seventh seal
What John sees with the opening of the first 5 seals is not the wrath of God. Seals 1-3 correspond to the events of the beginning of sorrows that Jesus spoke of. Seals 4 and 5 are associated with the unprecedented persecution of the great tribulation. The sixth seal announces that the day of the Lord has arrived, but the wrath doesn’t begin to fall until the seventh seal is opened and the first trumpet is blown.
The wrath falls on the day of the Lord
There is almost no contention with the truth that God’s wrath falls in the future period of time identified as the day of the Lord.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,It is God’s wrath in the day of the Lord that we are not appointed unto. Paul mentions that it takes place at Christ’s coming (Parousia).
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Paul says that the day of Christ (the Lord) will not come until the man of sin (the Beast) is revealed in the Temple and the notable falling away, that results from his violent persecution of the saints and great deception, takes place.
A unique cosmic sign will take place prior to the commencement of the day of the Lord. The same cosmic sign that John witnessed at the opening of the sixth seal.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
The day of the Lord cannot come until after the cosmic sign that John witnessed, and Jesus spoke of (Matt 24:29). Therefore, the wrath of God doesn’t fall until after the great tribulation has been cut short by Christ’s return and our rescue.
Each of the pre-trib misunderstandings below has been addressed to some degree or another in this post.
- The seventieth week is the period of God's wrath in the day of the Lord.
Wrong
- God uses the Beast as an instrument of His wrath upon the tribulation saints.
Wrong
- God's wrath begins with the opening of the first seal.
Wrong
- The great tribulation is for the Jews, the church will not be present.
Wrong
All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ
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4 hours ago, Jostler said:
I will yield and agree to disagree. I don't see much point in continuing from here.
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
Jostler, welcome to the forum. We need more contributors who let the Scriptures speak instead of reading false systems into the text.
Glory be to the Lamb
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3 hours ago, Bible_Gazer said:
Do you believe that the reformation was of God or of man ?
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
BG, any true repentance which involves an increase in faithfulness to the will of God as revealed in the Holy Scriptures I can't help but believe is the result of the reproving work of the Holy Spirit. The extent to which the reformation brought men closer to the truth in understanding and practice was from God. The aspects of it which were contrary to His revealed will were no doubt of man or demons.
That's my opinion.
Glory be to Jesus Christ
Prophecy from 2Thes 2:3 happening now
in Prophecy
Posted
Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,
LD, I have never seen a reference to the False Prophet being worshipped. Can you provide me with a reference for that? Thanks
Glory to Jesus Christ