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Steve Conley

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Steve Conley last won the day on June 6 2018

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  1. Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, LD, I have never seen a reference to the False Prophet being worshipped. Can you provide me with a reference for that? Thanks Glory to Jesus Christ
  2. Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, OC, persecution has been the lot of those who will live Godly in Christ Jesus. For the past ~2000 years believers have died for their identification with Christ in every violent and gruesome manner possible. This has been the experience of hundreds 0f millions at the hand of the Romans, Muslims, Communists, and other evil nations, men, and religions. After the man of sin is revealed in the Temple demanding to be worshipped as God the persecution will increase to an unprecedented level in both scope and severity. Today in the West we live in an aberration from the normal experience of true churches throughout the last 2000 years. The persecution has been very light. We have become accustomed to this life of ease absent the overwhelming pressure of violent persecution and have taken it for granted. That will all change in the coming years. The answer to your question is threefold Concerning the Dragon (Satan) who gives power (authority) to the Beast, he promulgates this persecution of Israel and the Elect because "he knoweth that he hath but a short time." Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Concerning the Church, It is an opportunity to increase our joy when we meet Christ at His revelation. It is an opportunity to demonstrate the power of the Holy Spirit within every true believer to be faithful unto death thereby exhibiting our worthiness of the Kingdom of God. It is a period of practical purification from sin. 1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. 1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. 1Pe 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. 2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Concerning unbelieving Israel, Jacob's trouble is God's discipline with the purpose of turning that unbelieving nation back to Him. Jer 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. Jer 30:4 And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. Jer 30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Jer 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. Jer 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. Jer 30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. Jer 30:11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished. Jer 30:12 For thus saith the LORD, Thy bruise is incurable, and thy wound is grievous. Jer 30:13 There is none to plead thy cause, that thou mayest be bound up: thou hast no healing medicines. Jer 30:14 All thy lovers have forgotten thee; they seek thee not; for I have wounded thee with the wound of an enemy, with the chastisement of a cruel one, for the multitude of thine iniquity; because thy sins were increased. Jer 30:15 Why criest thou for thine affliction? thy sorrow is incurable for the multitude of thine iniquity: because thy sins were increased, I have done these things unto thee. Jer 30:16 Therefore all they that devour thee shall be devoured; and all thine adversaries, every one of them, shall go into captivity; and they that spoil thee shall be a spoil, and all that prey upon thee will I give for a prey. Jer 30:17 For I will restore health unto thee, and I will heal thee of thy wounds, saith the LORD; because they called thee an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeketh after. Jer 30:18 Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof. Jer 30:19 And out of them shall proceed thanksgiving and the voice of them that make merry: and I will multiply them, and they shall not be few; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small. Jer 30:20 Their children also shall be as aforetime, and their congregation shall be established before me, and I will punish all that oppress them. Jer 30:21 And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD. Jer 30:22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. Jer 30:23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked. Jer 30:24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it. Praise Jesus Christ our Saviour
  3. Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, OC, there was no levity in my statement, the foolishness (irresponsible act) you are committing is promising believers that they will not face persecution at the hand of the Beast (AC). That will only be true if they physically die before he is revealed. Until 200 years ago such a thing was not taught. If your thinking of some ancient writer (Pseudo Ephriam) or early church father (Cyprian, Irenaeus, Tertullian) whose writing appear to espouse a tenant of pre-tribulationism, I also once believed the pre-trib "experts", however upon personal examination of the writings of these men I found that they expected the church to be persecuted by the Beast (AC). So, the "conflagration", "tribulation", or whatever description they used for that period that we are not appointed unto didn't refer to persecution by the Beast, but to the pouring out of God's wrath. We are told that we are not appointed unto God's wrath in the day of the Lord. But that is not the case with Satan's wrath through the Beast in the great tribulation. Jesus said concerning the sign of His coming: Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Notice that the word afflicted is the first use of thlipsis in the Matt 24 text. It refers to pressure and is also translated tribulation, trouble, persecution, anguish and burdened. What kind of pressure is it? It is the violent pressure of being hated by all nations and persecuted unto death. Who is being persecuted? Those who identify with Christ Jesus (for my name's sake). The nation of Israel has yet to identify with Jesus Christ. They rejected him at His first coming and 2/3 of them will be slain and the remaining brought through the fire of purification before they call upon the name of the Lord. OC, you are mixing the two periods of tribulation together. The unprecedented persecution of the Jews and the Elect takes place before Christ's coming at which time He begins to pour out His wrath upon the earth dwellers. This scenario is clear in Paul's teaching to the Thessalonians. 2Th 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Notice that Paul praises and encourages them for their faithfulness in the severe persecution that they were suffering. Paul uses both Greek words which indicate pressure and fleeing or being pursued. They were experiencing violent persecution at the hands of the Romans, they were given the choice, choose Caesar and live or Christ and die. 2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Their faithfulness is proof that they are worthy of the kingdom of God. Passing the test their faith is shown to be genuine. Jesus said: Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. Mat 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Mat 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. All the academic Bible knowledge and theological understanding that one may have is of no profit if one ultimately fails the test of true faith. Take the mark and worship the beast and you are lost forever. Confess Jesus before men and He will confess you before the Father. Let's see Paul's explanation of the order of things associated with Christ's coming. First God is going to repay those who persecuted His church with tribulation (pressure from Him). Things are going to get unbearably difficult for the earth dwellers who persecuted us. This tribulation is described in Rev 8-9 and 15-16. It is God's wrath poured out without mixture. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; We, the church, will be able to rest from persecution at Christ's revelation with the mighty angels. It is then that we are resurrected, changed, and raptured. Notice Paul links our physical safety with the revelation of Christ, not a secret appearing. The church rests when Jesus in glory reveals Himself to all the unexpecting world in the clouds of the atmospheric heaven with His mighty angels. At which time he sends them to gather us to Him in the clouds. 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, It is at this time that His wrath begins to fall upon the Christ-rejecting, Beast worshipping, Elect persecuting, earth dwellers. He will be avenging the violent murders of His saints. 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: The punishment for those who reject Christ and persecute His elect shall be everlasting destruction. 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; This happens when we see Christ at His appearing. This is our blessed hope even the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Yes it is the will of God that we suffer for Jesus The martyrs are told that they must wait for their blood to be avenged. It will be necessary for more faithful believers to die as martyrs. It is God's will that will need to be fulfilled. Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Your mischaracterization of what I believe when you say I'm looking for believers to score brownie points is more of your foolishness. All I'm doing is quoting Scripture, your beef is with God, the one you claim to worship. These are the words of His apostles and prophets that you are having a problem with. You set yourself against Paul and Christ Himself by what you teach. Yes, millions have joined in this deception, but Praise God, many have had the blinders removed from their eyes and have escaped the pre-trib delusion. Glory to Jesus Christ
  4. Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, I suppose the Lord didn't love these martyrs or their fellowservants. Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. You don't know what you are talking about. Tell that to the hundreds of millions of believers who have been slaughtered by the Muslims over the past 1400 years. Glory be to Jesus Christ
  5. Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, O foolish one, you didn't listen to what I said was the danger. The danger isn't physical it is spiritual. The saints are said to be overcomers in martyrdom. However, those who are professors who experience unprecedented persecution and are offended, it is they who are in danger. It is those among so-called Christian churches who are deceived by the lying signs and wonders that are in danger. Those who have been told that they don't have any worry, they can take the mark and not be lost. These, who refuse the love of the truth, Paul said that God would send them strong delusion. You fail to see that it is the will of God and a blessed privilege that we identify with Christ in His sufferings. My hope is not in making it out of here without experiencing persecution, but Jesus Himself. Jesus has always been the church's blessed hope. When He comes it will be a rescue to prevent the Beast from killing every last child of God. Glory be to the Lamb
  6. Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Mr. Mad, I've been unable to give any attention to your posts for a few days. I would be interested in your proving that the revelation of the AC is in Rev 11. It appears that is just supposition based upon the idea that there are 3.5 years left in the seventieth week at Rev 12:6. There are parenthetical portions of John's recording of the things which shall be hereafter. Chapters 6-9 and 15-16 are chronological but all the others are not, but are pericopes providing details which fit into the chronological narrative and outside it. As to your statements concerning the modern Bible translations, the "experts", and the millions of pretribbers. No one can translate the Scriptures without their understanding of Bible doctrine affecting their choice of words used to represent the original text. It is expected that pre-tribbers will translate it consistent with their doctrinal beliefs. If you go back before the teaching of JND, I expect you will find translations that aren't so accommodating to pre-tribulationism. Matt 24 records Christ describing the events which precede His coming. There are more than 2 dozen parallels between Christ's description of what precedes His arrival and the gathering of His elect in Matt 24 and Paul's eschatological teaching in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians. I'm sure you can find them if you're interested in truth. Unlike most pre-tribbers, you do not teach that the day of the Lord nor the seventieth week begins with the 1st seal. You are correct that the day of the Lord begins after the sixth seal is opened, with Christ's glorious appearing taking place after the cosmic sign. However, you do not recognize John's cosmic sign as the same cosmic sign that Christ said immediately follows the great tribulation. Also, it appears that you do not recognize that great tribulation refers to unprecedented persecution upon the elect by the beast instead of God's wrath upon the elect and the earth dwellers. Here is a real problem for pretribulationists. They teach that God is pouring out His wrath upon His own faithful saints, those who love not their lives unto death. Pre-tribbers have God tribulating (persecuting) His own, how dreadful. You fail to recognize that the Gentile believers have been made partakers with the believing Israelites of the promises made to the fathers. Believing Gentiles have been graffed in amongst believing Israelites. Because of this, you separate the elect into different groups. Paul said clearly that it is the election (believers from among the Israelites) not the unbelieving descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob receive the promises. It is this election that the believing Gentile is added to. Gentile believers are no more strangers and foreigners but fellowcitizens with the saints and of the household of God. You also fail to connect the singular parousia (arrival and continuing presence), epiphania (appearing), and the resurrection/change and rapture all together. After considering what I can ascertain from your beliefs, I have come to the conclusion that you actually have more things right than the typical pre-tribber. Recognizing roughly the proper location of the rapture and the beginning of the day of the Lord places you far ahead of most. However, your failure to link that which Paul sees at the opening of the fifth seal with the great tribulation forces your misapplication of Christ's words in Matt 24. Glory be to Jesus Christ
  7. Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, OC, There is not a single verse of Scripture that suggests the church is removed before the period of unprecedented persecution of the elect takes place. The pre-trib error which also I taught for 30 years involved a misunderstanding of the nature of the great tribulation, thinking that it was the wrath of God on the day of the Lord. The great tribulation and God's wrath on the day of the Lord are separated by the cosmic sign, the first resurrection, and the rapture. We must be removed from the earth to a place of safety before the salvos of God's wrath begins to fall. The pre-trib deception isn't harmless, it causes one to disregard the warnings Christ gave for our safety. Those under the influence of the pre-trib system see those warnings and have been conditioned to think: "they are not for me, they belong to some other category of believer, or even unbelieving Jews." The warnings are therefore unheaded and like the man who built his house upon the sand when the waters (unprecedented persecution and great deception) come they will be destroyed. The harm that one who professes Christ can suffer is to fall away (be offended at the persecution for the name of Christ) and worship the Beast. The extent to which this has infected the evangelical churches is that very well known teachers have said that Christians will not be damned if they take the mark of the Beast. Those who say such are dangerous fools and deceivers. They are deceived because they chose not the love of the truth, they rejected the plain sense of Scriptural texts making them subordinate to a fallacious eschatological system. They desire the praise and approval of men more than God. If you are concerned about my tone, I can't imagine that of Christ or Paul being any less stern. Glory be to our blessed Saviour Jesus Christ
  8. Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, I think you need to reread the passages that refer to Christ coming as a thief. You will find that it has nothing to do with it being silent but with it being unexpected by the unbelieving. What level of twisting of the Scriptures will some go to, to prop up a bankrupt eschatological system? Since you say the Holy Spirit is removed, what spirit indwells the two witnesses or indwells those dear tribulation saints who love not their life even unto death. Have you learned nothing from the NT. Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Justification before God only ever (past, present, and future) is possible through faith in the person and work Jesus Christ alone. Only those in Jesus Christ will ever be partakers of eternal life and the promises made to the fathers. Whoever is teaching you this foolishness needs to be rebuked. Many who call themselves Christians today shall be faced with the decision to take the mark of the beast or not. Jesus said many will be offended because of the persecution (Matt 24:10). I was a pre-tribber for 40 years and I know now that it is absolutely false. We are promised to be spared from God's wrath, but the great tribulation is not God's wrath. You have a rude awakening coming if you are a part of the last generation of the church. Those who have promised you a great escape before persecution comes your way have deceived you. Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ
  9. Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Mr. Mad, First let me say that the timing for the rapture being after the great tribulation but before the wrath of God is poured out in the day of the Lord is well established from a great number of texts. No eschatological teaching that I hold is determined by the proper interpretation of what was meant by Paul's use of en-is'-tay-mee at the end of 2Thes 2:2. However, the Scripture testifying that the appearing of Christ for His saints follows the great tribulation is a certainty that informs us about what Paul initialy taught the Thessalonians concerning Christ's return. When we know Paul's teaching concerning the events that will precede the parousia of Christ it is easy to see how the Thessalonians thought the severe persecution that they were facing was the great tribulation. The choice of "at hand" (its meaning in that day being near in time or distance) for the English translation of en-is'-tay-mee tells us what the translators believed Paul was trying to communicate. At hand fit properly with the context of the Thessalonians being in distress thinking that they were going through the great tribulation. Jesus taught that the unprecedented persecution precedes His return. Only after the great tribulation begins will it be so that the parousia (coming) of Christ and our gathering to Him will be near in time. The great tribulation begins when the man of sin is revealed in the temple shewing himself to be God after which there will be a notable falling away. These are the conditions that Paul says must be met before the day of Christ will be near in time. Mr. Mad, it appears that I have caught you being deceptive by ommiting information which speaks contrary to your idea of the meaning of (en-is'-tay-mee) which is translated at hand. You conveniently left out Paul's use of the word to Timothy. Here Paul uses ἐνστήσονται translated "shall come". A. T. Robertson (Possibly the most respected NT Greek Schollar of our time) says concerning it: "Future middle of enistēmi (intransitive use), old verb, to stand on or be at hand, as in 2Th 2:2." He further says concerning the use of en-is'-tay-mee in 2Thes 2:2: "Perfect active indicative of enistēmi, old verb, to place in, but intransitive in this tense to stand in or at or near. So “is imminent” (Lightfoot)." 2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. You're free to believe what you want, but indeed, the Thessalonians, according to Paul's teachings, believed that the GT would come before the day of Christ. Paul was saying that they were not in the great tribulation, the period of time in which the day of Christ will be at hand. Man's definition of the trib - The trib is a seven year period in which God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. This seven year period is said to be the day of the Lord. In this period God uses the Beast as an instrument of His wrath. The last 3.5 years contains the most severe portion of God's wrath and is called the great tribulation. Bible definition of tribulation - The pressure associated with being persecuted for Jesus sake, experiencing God's vengeance in the day of the Lord, or experiencing the hardships common to man. The context determines which it is. Bible definition of the great tribulation - The unprecedented period of violent persecution of the elect by the Beast and his followers which begins ~3.5 years before Christ's millenial kingdom is set up. It begins with the abomination of desolation which is the defiling of the Jewish Temple by the man of sin. It results in a notable falling away (many shall be offended). It is accompanied by lying signs and wonders. It is cut short to keep some of the elect alive upon the earth. The cosmic which announces Christ's return signals that it is over. The length is unspecified which keeps us from knowing the day or hour of Christ's return. Daniel called it an unprecedented time of trouble. Jeremiah called it Jacob's trouble. Out of it shall the innumerable multitude of Rev 7 come. Glory be to Jesus Christ
  10. Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Mr. Mad, here is a brief exposition of the 2Thes 2 text. Notice the difference between sound exegesis and what you present. Paul says concerning Christ’s coming and the resurrection/rapture don’t be shaken or troubled that it, the day of Christ, is at hand or near in time. 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. The English expression “is at hand” was given by the translators to represent the Greek word ἐνέστηκεν from the root ἐνίστημι (enistēmi) in this context. The expression “at hand” was defined in that day as "near in time or not distant". The translation communicates that Paul said the day of Christ was not near in time. The persecution that they were experiencing as testified by 1Thes and 2Thes 1 was not that great tribulation that will be taking place just prior to Christ's return. His return and the following events are the day of Christ Notice that there is nothing said in the text about them “thinking that they missed the rapture”. That is an extrapolation of those who interject of a secret rapture before the beginning of the week into the text. Such a pre-trib rapture has no support from the text so it must be added to nearly every statement to brainwash folks into thinking that it is the orthodox teaching of the Scriptures. The day of Christ is His coming and our gathering unto Him. It is also called the day of the Lord because immediately after He arrives and the resurrection/rapture takes place He begins to pour out His fierce wrath upon the unbelieving Beast worshiping earth dwellers in the form of the trumpet and vial judgements. Paul says here that the good work of partnership in the Gospel will be performed until the day of Jesus Christ. Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: Paul says we are to be sincere and without offence till we see Christ. The day of Jesus Christ is when we see Him. Php 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Then Paul tells them that two things must happen before that day (the second coming [parousia] and resurrection/rapture) can come: a falling away and the revelation of the man of sin. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; The falling away is described in detail by Christ in the Olivet Discourse. In Christ’s dealing with the period of unprecedented persecution and deception that takes place prior to His coming He says that many will be offended (fall away). The falling away is due to the severe persecution, false Christs, false prophets, and supernatural deceptions. Jesus said that the deception will be so great that if it were possible even the truly elect would be deceived. The revelation of the man of sin will involve the Antichrist (Beast) in the Temple demanding to be worshiped as God. Jesus referred to this as the start of the great tribulation (Matt 25:15, 21) which Daniel testified will take place in the middle of the week (Dan 9:27). 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. This is none other than the Beast that arises out of the sea (Rev 13), because it is he that worship is directed toward on behalf of the Dragon. There is no Scriptural indication that the false prophet receives worship on behalf of the Dragon. Paul says that he told the Thessalonians these things before. 2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? What Paul says in verse 6 can be interpreted in two ways so that both statements are equally true. Although I know Paul had one intended meaning, I cannot be certain which of the two is the one he intended. The first is that the Thessalonians now know what is keeping the Antichrist from being revealed until it is the Antichrist’s time. The second is that the Thessalonians now (henceforth) know (because Paul just told them in verse 3) what is preventing the revelation of Christ (the day of Christ), the falling away and the revelation of the man of sin must come first. Both statements are true, but I cannot be certain which Paul meant. It is difficult to identify the subject of the pronouns that Paul uses. There is also something or someone preventing both Christ’s day from being at hand and the revelation of the Beast. The use of “what” also points towards it referring to Christ. Much writing could easily be devoted to these two interpretations, but I will not do that here. The important thing is to recognize that both statements are true, whichever Paul meant. 2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. In verse 7 the one withholding is a he, not a what. It should be noted that the same Greek word is used for “withholdeth”, “letteth”, and “let”. Each expresses the idea of hindering or restraining. It should also be noted that the word translated “the way” is the Greek word “mesos” which means middle. Additionally, we should consider the unusual translation of “ginomai” in this text. Of the 672 uses of the word in the NT, only once, here in this text, is it translated “be taken”. What does all this mean? It means that we must with great care be diligent to not err concerning who this restrainer of the mystery of iniquity is. Who is presently restraining Satan from giving power unto the man of sin? 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. The restrainer is Michael the archangel that Daniel said would stand up (stand aside) after which would be a time of unparalleled trouble. This unparalleled trouble is that same period of persecution that Jesus called great tribulation. The revelation of the Beast in the Temple takes place in the middle of the week. Michael stands aside in the middle of the week. Satan is cast out of heaven by Michael in the middle of the week. The middle is very significant. Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:7b … it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Michael is specially equipped to deal with Satan. Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. When Michael casts Satan to the earth in the middle of the week (Rev 12) the Antichrist shall be revealed. His end is to be consumed in the brightness of Christ’s presence. 2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Satan gives the Beast his power and lying wonders are performed by the False Prophet. Those who choose not the love of the truth are deceived and perish. 2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Because they didn’t love, but instead rejected the truth, the earth dwellers will be convinced by the miracles performed by the False Prophet and worship the Beast, receiving his mark and thereby be eternally damned. God gives those, who refuse the truth and love their sins, a lie that they might be damned. 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Glory be to Jesus
  11. Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Concerning the day of Christ (the Lord) and the rapture, it really isn't that hard. Jesus told His disciples that He would come again and receive them unto Himself. Paul calls this coming again the parousia in 1Thes 4:15. Jesus is asked by His disciples "what shall be the sign of thy parousia"? Jesus tells them of the condition of the world and the church (His followers) prior to His parousia. He tells them of the cosmic sign which will indicate that their redemption is nigh. The future coming (parousia, which means arrival and continuing presence) of Christ only happens once. It is made up of His arrival and all that follows, even His destruction of the Antichrist at Armageddon which takes place much later in the day of the Lord. Revelation 19 is not describing Christ's arrival, His appearing gloriously in the clouds with the mighty Angels for every eye to see (Rev 1:7), it is describing His victory over the Beast and the nations which follow him. The church always taught one future coming (parousia) as witnessed by Paul in Heb 9:28 and elsewhere. The idea of two future parousias is not only foreign to Scripture, it is practically non-existent in church history prior to JND. No wonder you are so confused, Jesus didn't say I'm going to come again and again. The parousia will end the unprecedented persecution of the saints. But it appears that most of the Saints will have been martyred by then. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Jesus comes in the second half of the week to end the great tribulation by rescuing those of us who are alive and remain after which He begins to pour out His wrath upon the earth dwellers. Glory be to the Lamb
  12. I would add the following scriptures about the righteous judgment of God v Verse list: 1Pe 4:12-19 KJV Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. Rom 2:5-7 KJV But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 2Th 1:4-5 KJV So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT OF GOD, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: *[[Luk 22:18]] KJV* For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. *[[2Ti 4:1]] KJV* I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Blessings The PuP Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, PuP, the suffering that we have been appointed unto according to the will of God is not God's day of the Lord wrath. Praise Jesus
  13. Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Mr. Mad, apostasia refers to a religious departure, not the rapture. It is that which Jesus spoke of in Matt 24:10 "and many shall be offended" when they face severe persecution. There is not a single reference in all of the known historic Koine Greek literature where apostasia is used to communicate a physical departure. Every use communicated either a religious or political departure. The KJV translators recognized the historic teaching of the church concerning apostasia and appropriately translated it "falling away" as to leave no ambiguity concerning its meaning. The idea that this use of apostasia is the rapture is very recent. It is the latest attempt of the secret rapturists to provide some kind of support for the bankrupt pre-trib model for the rapture. You have abandoned all use of grammar in your reading of the 2Thes 2 text. Try again. Glory be to Jesus Christ
  14. Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Mr. Mad, (I-am-la (French for "the")-mad, I'm sorry, but that is what I think when I see that name) what I presented is exactly what one will conclude when reading the text without being told ahead of time what to think about it. It is true that God's wrath begins after the 6th seal at the opening of the seventh and blowing of the first trumpet and continues on throughout the rest of the week, culminating in the vials. And Jesus surely has wrath when He descends to the battle of Armageddon. Therefore God's wrath goes from Rev. chapter 8 (the 1st trumpet) all the way to Rev. 19. The day of the Lord begins after the opening of the sixth seal, but the wrath doesn't begin to fall until later that day after the 1/2 hour of silence in Heaven. At Christ's appearing, after the cosmic sign which John sees upon the opening of the sixth seal, the earth dwellers begin to hide and the saints are resurrected/changed and raptured. The day of the Lord begins with Christ's glorious appearing, the wrath falls after He has raptured the church and sealed the 144,000. "Earth dwellers" (they that dwell upon the earth) is a technical term for those unbelieving Beast worshipers who persecute the elect. I try to be very intentional with every word I use, although undoubtedly there are times I misspeak. Many have wrong ideas about various terms used in eschatological passages. For instance, in Koine Greek, there are two primary words which communicate the idea of persecution. First, there is diōkō and its various forms which emphasize the fleeing or being pursued aspect of persecution. An example of this is: 2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. The second Koine Greek word thlibō or thlipsis communicates the pressure aspect of persecution. An example of it is: Act 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only. It is thlipsis that Jesus uses in Matt 24. Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (thlipsis), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (thlipsis) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: It is thlibō and thlipsis that Paul uses when writing to the Thessalonians. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation (thlipsis) to them that trouble (thlibō ) you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled (thlibō ) rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In this text, Paul mentions both the persecution that the elect suffers and the persecution (trouble, tribulation) that God will bring upon those who persecuted us. This isn't that difficult. You just have to accept the fact the the wool has been pulled over your eyes in the past and now you need to embrace the truth. Glory be unto Jesus Christ the Lord
  15. Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, DSA, it depends what you mean by tribulation. If you are referring to Paul's use of it in 2Thes 1:6 then you are correct. If you are referring to Christ's use of it in Matt 24 then you are wrong. My previous post explains what should be the obvious difference between the two. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Tribulation upon the beast worshipers after the rapture Tribulation upon the elect before the rapture Glory to Jesus Christ
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