OpenMind

I guess I misunderstood your post then because you appeared to list "the soul" as one of the definitions of spirit.

That's your prerogative but I would appreciate it if you would explain to me how you reconcile your belief with all the Bible verses that seemingly contradict your belief. For example, what did King Solomon mean when he said "the dead know nothing"? Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing And what did King David mean when he said "he returns to the earth"? Psalm 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Do you believe that means that the righteous never die?

One could say that, yes. God is life, which is why when he breathed into Adam, Adam became alive. And that is also why when we lose our life, that life goes back to God who gave it. All life comes from God and returns to God. There is no other source of life.

The word "spirit" in that verse refers to life. When you die, your life returns to God who gave it. He gave it in Genesis 2:7. You said, "Yes", you believe that as soon as you die, you are resurrected, but then what of these verses? John 5:28-29 “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” John is talking about "the hour" in which all that are in the graves shall be resurrected. How can this be if nobody waits for that hour, as you say? John also says that resurrection happens on "the last day". John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. Actually it was Jesus who spoke those words, but John recorded it. Do you deny what Jesus said? Or do you need to "clarify" what he said by adding a few words in there? And Paul says here in 1 Corinthians 15 that we will be resurrected when Jesus returns. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Do you deny that as well? The angel Gabriel told Daniel that there will come a time when all will be awakened. Daniel 12:1 But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. He's clearly saying that all will be resurrected at the same time, which means they can not be resurrected as soon as they die because people die at different times. Did Gabriel not understand the resurrection process?

What I'm saying (and what the Bible is saying) is that when we die, we actually die.

I don't think anybody would disagree that it would be better to be with Christ, but does Paul actually say that as soon as you die you are with Christ? No, he does not. You inferred it. What the Bible does actually say is that you are dust and to dust you will return. Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” As you know, if you read the OP, there are many more verses that say the same thing, and there's not a single verse that unequivocally states you will be in heaven as soon as you die. Why do you claim that which the Bible does not unequivocally say (but can be inferred), and yet you flat out deny that which it does unequivocally state? You said "He is talking about his soul, that which is 'me'", and when you say "soul" I assume you mean spirit, but the Bible says you are dust, not spirit.

You start out by offering a definition of both spirit and soul, but then go on to define a spirit as "the soul". Do you believe they are one and the same?

You say that my position is not Biblical yet I presented exactly 40 Bible verses to support my position. I posted verses that unequivocally state that we return to the dust of the earth when we die, that the dead know nothing, that man has no advantage over beasts in death, that people are in their graves, that David has not ascended to heaven and that in fact no man has ascended to heaven. And you state the exact opposite. You say that a believer's "soul" goes immediately to heaven upon death, yet you provide no scriptural evidence. You say a non believer's "soul" goes immediately to Hades, which is actually correct but ironic because you don't seem to understand what "Hades" actually is, nor that the righteous go there also. You have also ignored the Biblical definition of soul and used your own. Why should I believe you?

Do you believe that less clear scripture should be viewed in the light of more clear scripture?

OneLight, I believe the word "spirit" in your first example is a reference to a different kind of spirit what we typically refer to as "character", similar to how we would use the word in regards to "school spirit", "Christmas spirit" or "the spirit of giving". It is in fact the same word used in 2 Corinthians 4:13 which speaks of "the spirit of faith". Take this definition of spirit: those qualities regarded as forming the definitive or typical elements in the character of a person, nation, or group . The word "soul", as I explained in the OP refers to what we are, as in "a living creature". Man became a soul when God breathed life into his nostrils in Genesis 2:7. The original Greek word used here is Psuche. However, psuche can also be a reference to a person's individuality or "self". Either way, this word is a reference to a person's life and existence as a soul. So given the context, I believe that passage can be paraphrased as "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your character, life, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.". Now let me ask you something. How do you reject the many passages that say we return to the dust of the earth when we die?

What do you mean by that? Do you mean we are resurrected immediately after death?

Premise Traditionally most people believe that there is a ghost-like “spirit” inside of our bodies, and when we die, this spirit floats away somewhere, preferably heaven. I will show that the Bible actually does not support this theory. In fact, according to the Bible there is no spirit inside of us at all. We exist only as mortal bodies, made from dust having been given the breath of life. And it is this “breath of life” that is confused with, or interpreted as, a “spirit”. What Happens When We Die Scripture says it plainly. Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” Job 7:21 Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be." Job 14:10:12 But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep. Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence. Psalm 146:4 When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish. Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing. These are only a few examples. The dead don’t think. They don’t praise the Lord. They have no consciousness. They return to the earth, as dust. Their plans perish and they cease to exist. Ecclesiastes 3 even tells us that man has no advantage over the beasts. All go to one place, which is dust. Death Compared to Sleep Psalms 13:3 Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death, 1 Kings 2:10 Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David. When Lazarus died, Jesus said he was sleeping. John 11:11-14 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” 12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead Why would Jesus compare Lazarus’ death to “sleep” if Lazarus’ spirit has ascended into heaven? And why was there no mention of his spirit leaving his body? Matthew 9:24 He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him. Daniel 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Daniel was told he would “rest” until the resurrection. Daniel 12:13 As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.” If Daniel’s spirit was to go to heaven after death, then why was he told that he would rest? Why did the angel not say instead, I’ll see you in heaven soon, or something to that effect? It’s because Daniel wasn’t going to heaven. He was going to the dust of the earth. Daniel is now dead. He is not in heaven. He’s dead in the dust of the earth and on the day of the resurrection, he will rise, along with the rest of us. What Happens When we are Resurrected The resurrection, as Paul describes it, actually also proves that we have no spirit in us that goes to heaven when we die. Imagine if we did have a spirit. We would fly up to heaven and we would do whatever we do in heaven. Praise the Lord, play Frisbee, eat BBQ chicken. No matter how you envision an existence in heaven, it would require at the very least that we have a consciousness, a thought process and a free will to continue to make decisions. All of this would contradict the old testament verses above. It would also contradict the new testament book of 1 Corinthians, because according to Paul this life in a spiritual body, which we imagine in heaven, does not come to us until the very last day, when we are resurrected. 1 Corinthians 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. Paul clearly states that we are created with a natural body, not a spiritual body. We will be transformed into a spiritual body upon the resurrection. “The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual”. In other words, when God created us, we were not given spiritual bodies, only natural bodies, but we would receive spiritual bodies later, upon the resurrection. Our bodies are sewn natural, raised spiritual. This is the point of the resurrection, to make us spiritual so that we can be immortal. So if you believe that we already have immortal spirits that leave our bodies when we die, you have a conundrum. The Spiritual Conundrum Imagine the traditional teaching, where we have a spirit and we go to heaven as a spirit when we die. Then please tell me, what is the point of the resurrection? If we are already in heaven, as immortal spirits, then why would we need to be transformed into spirits on the last day? If it is so, then when our bodies on earth are transformed into spirits, do we end up with two spirits? The one in heaven and the one on earth? Would both spirits have their own separate consciousness? Do our spirits in heaven then join our old bodies which have been transformed? Would we then be a spirit within a spirit? Two spirits? What nonsense! If we’re being transformed into spirits, then we can not already be spirits, otherwise what would be the point? The point of the resurrection is to make us immortal. To make us spirits. This would be entirely nonsensical if we are already living as spirits in heaven, and this is how Paul’s description of the resurrection proves that we do not have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after death. Soul (Nephesh) To add to the confusion, in addition to the obvious body and the presumed spirit, we also supposedly possess a “soul”. What is a soul? You are a soul. Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Notice in the verse above that man became a living soul. He was not given a soul. He became a soul. In other words, we do not have souls, we are souls. The word soul in this verse was originally written in Hebrew as לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ which is transliterated as nephesh. Strong’s concordance defines nephesh as “a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion”. With this definition in mind, the last part of Genesis 2:7 can be paraphrased as, for example “man became alive” or “man became an individual”. It is in fact the very moment when man gained his self awareness and free will. The same word occurs 754 times in the old testament, so we can’t look at all examples but let’s look at one more. Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (Nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. Here the King James Bible translates it as “creature that hath life”. Remember, this is the same word that was translated as “soul” in Genesis 2:7. The more examples you look at the more obvious it becomes that when the word “soul” is used in scripture it refers simply to “a living creature”. So keep in mind the true meaning of the word Nephesh, which can be translated as soul, living creature, person or individual, when you read verses such as… Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The living creature who sins… The person who sins… The individual who sins… The Spirit (Ruach) On the flip side, there are a number of verses that can be used to support the notion that we all have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after the body dies. And at first glance, some of these verses are very convincing. For example Ecclesiastes 12:7 the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. 2 Corinthians 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. James 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. Obviously, the key to understanding such verses is understanding the meaning of “spirit”. As it turns out, in these examples, the word spirit refers to the breath of God, which is life. Ecclesiastes 12:7 the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. This verse seems to imply that our spirit goes up to heaven when we die, but actually “spirit” here refers to the life that God breathed into man in Genesis 2:7. It’s the life that returns to God, because the life came from God. Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. The word used through the old testament for spirit is the Hebrew word Ruach ר֫וּחַ, which can also be translated as “breath or wind”. In fact, this is how it is translated in various other verses including Genesis 7:15 and Psalm 104:29. Genesis 7:15 Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life (ruach) in them came to Noah and entered the ark. Psalm 104:29 When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath (ruach), they die and return to the dust. When God gave man life, it was his breath/wind/spirit which God gave. The spirit of God is life. And it’s this spirit, this life, that returns to God in Ecclesiastes 12:7 Ecclesiastes 12:7 the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (ruach – life / breath) returns to God who gave it. Other verses clearly explain that it is the spirit of God, or the breath of God, that has given us life. John 6:63 says The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life. Job 33:4 says The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life. The many Hebrew names of God in fact include the word Ruach each time. English Name Hebrew Name The Spirit of God Ruach Elohim The Spirit of the Lord Ruach Adonai The Holy Spirit Ruach Hakkodesh The Spirit of the Lord God Ruach Adonai Elohim The Spirit of God Ruach-El Clearly, the word Ruach does not refer to a ghostly spirit that lives inside each of us, but rather the breath of life which came from God himself, and which is a part of God himself. Let’s look at the verse again. Ecclesiastes 12:7 the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it. And now compare that to the verse that describes man becoming a living creature. Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. In other words, God gave his living spirit (Ruach) and man became a living soul (Nephesh). When Jesus Died When this discussion of a spirit comes up people often point to references around Jesus’ death on the cross as proof that his “spirit” left him. Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.'" Having said this, He breathed His last. Matthew 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit. I used to think, as most people do, that each reference to “spirit” in these verses referred to a conscious ghostly entity that left Jesus’ body and floated up to heaven (or hell, depending on who you ask) where Jesus continued to “live”. However, if we look at the original Greek word used we get an entirely different picture. Remember, the Hebrew word translated as spirit in the old testament is Ruach and it means “breath” or “wind”. In the new testament the original text is Greek and in each of these three verses above, the word translated as spirit is the Greek word “Pneuma”. Pneuma means “wind, breath, spirit”. It has the exact same meaning as the Hebrew Ruach. Go figure. Also remember that in Genesis 2:7 God created man and gave man the breath of life. That god given breath is not just a simple breath that we take for granted; it is life. So if we understand that the Greek meaning of the word “pneuma” is actually a reference to life itself which God breathed into us, these verses suddenly take on a whole new meaning. Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit life.'" Having said this, He breathed His last. Matthew 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit life. John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit life. Of course, looking back at it now, it seems so obvious that Jesus did not continue to live in spirit form after his death, because if that were the case he wouldn’t have really died. But he actually did die. He really died. The breath of life left him and he died. There is literally no Bible verse that claims there is a ghostly spirit inside each of us that lives on after death. In fact, quite the opposite. All indications are that when we die, we return to the dust of the earth, without any consciousness, knowing nothing and realizing nothing. And it’s only at the resurrection, when the breath of God returns to us, that we become spiritual creatures. Further Evidence Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day” Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth John 3:13 And no man has ascended up to heaven

Revelation 20:10 actually says "...they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages". And Revelation 22:5 says "...and they will reign to the ages of the ages". So in both of these cases it seems as though "to the ages of the ages" is a reference to forever, as in "from one age to the next, all throughout the infinite ages to come". And there are other such uses of the word "aoinian" that signify eternity. However, not all references to the english word eternity, or eternal, in the KJV or other translations, actually mean eternal. For example, Matthew 18:8. If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. Here the KJV uses the phrase "eternal fire" but a more accurate translation of the original text would be "age long fire". Young's Literal Translation translates it thusly "to be cast to the fire the age-during." because that is what it actually says in the original Greek manuscripts. The same is true of Matthew 19:29 and Luke 18:30 and many other verses throughout. They all refer to something that is "age-long" not eternal. In fact, all of the references to "eternal fire" or "everlasting fire" in the KJV actually translate into "age-long fire" in Young's Literal Translation. Jude 1:7, Isaiah 33:14, Matthew 18:8, Matthew 25:41. So knowing that not all English translations agree; which English translation is correct? Sometimes the only way to know for sure is to research the original Greek (or Hebrew) words yourself and don't depend on others to tell you what's right.

Seriously? How about you use common sense instead.

So do you think that just reading it in English is good enough?

You seem to be unwilling or unable to address my point, so let me try this with a simple yes or no question. Do you believe that there's no need to try to understand the meanings of the original Hebrew and Greek words the Bible was written in when reading an English translation?

Every author was a disciple of God, but that is not the point. The point is the Bible was not written in English, so if you only look at the English words, you're not getting the true picture.

Obviously I've read all the scriptures. And I've not just read them, but also studied them, including the meanings of the original Greek and Hebrew writings. The fact is that the English word "forever" is a bad translation, as I've already pointed out, and not only this word, but so many words translated into English which have different meanings in their original written language. So to simply "believe what you read" is folly, if you fail to acknowledge that the English words you're reading are not the original written words, and the meanings of those English words don't match the meanings of the original written words.

If you want me to address a specific point, you're going to have to be more specific. You brought up about a dozen different points there and I'm not going to respond to each one of them.

If you think the disciples wrote the Bible in English then I guess you can believe whatever you want.

On the contrary. You show me any scripture where it says what you claim and I'll show you that you're wrong.

Sure, but the scripture doesn't say forever. It says aiṓnios.

Body and soul and spirit are also greatly misunderstood concepts. We can see in Genesis 2:7 that God breathed life into man, and man became a living soul. This single verse actually explains all three of body, soul and spirit. Spirit is actually the breath of God, which when breathed into the body created a soul. A soul is any living creature, as any living creature which has the breath of life (spirit). In other words, body + spirit (life) = soul.

What's really interesting is that praying to Jesus was never a thing in early Christianity. Christians prayed to the father, just as Jesus told us to, yet today most protestants pray to Jesus. And what's interesting about the trinity is two things. 1. All references to the Holy Spirit are actually references to the Father, as he literally is the Holy Spirit. Not two separate persons as the trinity doctrine teaches, but one and the same. 2. The trinity doctrine is primarily derived from the Johanneum comma (1 John 5:7-8) which did not exist in early Greek manuscripts but was added later at the insistence of the RCC. Only the KJV and NKJV, as modern English translations, actually include this description of the trinity, without which there is no trinity doctrine.