Dafydd

The rule of Christ began in the First Century and will, I believe, become increasingly apparent until the kingdoms of the world become the Kingdom of the Lord. Christ is present today in his corporate body and the more each member of this corporate body - the church - surrenders to the Spirit of Christ within, the more the church will act as the Body of Christ and not simply as a group of human believers. In recent years, more parts of the church have switched from the human method of adversarial decision making (voting on proposals) to the Holy Spirit guided consensus method pioneered by the Quakers. This is surely a move of the Holy Spirit, as decisions reached by this method (which is really a surrender to the rule of Christ within) are necessarily God's will. I believe that as this approach becomes increasingly the normal for churches & other Christian organisations and as the world becomes increasingly Christian (which I believe it will as the centuries roll on), the method will also become normal for business and governmental organisations as well. Maybe, in the far future, competing businesses and warring countries will be replaced by Holy Spirit guided communities. Maybe society will eventually become a loose confederation of something like Christian kibbutz, all governed by the Spirit-led discernment of the will of God (=the rule of Christ). Please read the free ebook at: www.christianityoasis.com/PurityPublications/5145/HolySpiritGuidedConsensus.htm. Also an article at: westfriend.org/Media/quaker-style-method-governance Blessings!

Jesus , suffered more than anyone else in history. I firmly believe this, and His suffering was not confined to the Cross. I am far from sinless, but even I find it hard to be in the presence of foul-mouthed people or similar. How must the eternally sinless Jesus have felt in the constant presence of sinners and how great His love to deliberately associate with the worst of these! But all of this paled in comparison to His suffering on the Cross. Crucifixion was the most painful means of execution devised by man, yet the physical pains that Jesus suffered were accompanied by the spiritual agony of bearing the sin of the human race in His pure and sinless body. His human consciousness lost the awareness of His divine nature and the the conscious presence of His eternal union with the Father. The wrath of the Father against the sin of humanity was experienced by Jesus. The worst of the Dark Nights or Wilderness Experiences that Christians sometimes experience must have been as nothing compared to this. We cannot know or even imagine what He must have gone through! And all of this was for you and I, not for some abstract entity such as "humanity" or even "the church". The beautiful and terrible fact is that even if you or I alone accepted Him as Lord and Savior, HE WOULD STILL HAVE GONE TO THE CROSS!!! That is what He did for you and for me. So how can we ever repay Him? Of course, we cannot. But we can do the one thing that will bring the most joy to Jesus and the Father. We can turn and follow Him so that He can transform us increasingly into His likeness and thereby prepare us to be with Him in Eternity. If anyone reading these words has not yet made the decision to follow Him, please do so right now. He wants to save you at no cost to yourself, but at the infinite cost that He has already paid for you. He calls to you. Please answer.

I have studied prophecy to a fair degree, but I rely much on those who are far more expert than myself, although nobody has all the correct answers and we must rely on the guidance of the Holy Spirit as we try to understand what the Bible really says about these (and all other!) matters.

It seems to me that God is moving the church toward a more complete manifesting of the Kingdom through several different movements. First, there is a growing preterist interpretation of the Second Coming. Putting it bluntly, there is a growing sense that we are not waiting for Christ to return to build the Kingdom. He is already present and building the Kingdom NOW. Secondly (and closely related) there is a growing sense that God still "speaks" to His people. Part (but not all) of this relates to spiritual gifts as operative today. Thirdly, there is a move from "doing church' to "building the Kingdom" Fourthly, there is a wider adoption of "Holy Spirit-led" consensus (Quaker style) in doing Christian business. The WCC is moving into this; a method previously practised by Quakers and groups such as the Bruderhof Community. All of these will, I believe, come together more and more closely as the Kingdom is manifested increasingly on earth. In my opinion, something like the Bruderhof Community manifests a little of what the mature Kingdom will be. Imagine a world where nations have given way to confederations of Bruderhof-like communities, where business is owned by communities and where decisions (business and political) are made in the manner of Quaker business meetings. That, I believe, will happen in the future!

There is an increasing trend in many parts of the Church (including the boards of Christian charities), and to a lesser extent in certain secular situations, of replacing the 'majority opinion' model of decision making with consensus. For the Christian, a form of consensus emerges logically as the best approach. A group of Christians coming together as "organs" in the corporate Body of Christ must, ipso facto, be united in the Mind of Christ IF THEY MEET AS THE CORPORATE BODY OF CHRIST AND NOT SIMPLY AS INDIVIDUALS. If they meet as the latter, they may reach "secular" consensus, but if they meet as the former, they can pass beyond mere consensus and arrive at the true Will of God in any situation. Such "Christ-centered consensus" is reached when each member of the group becomes inwardly convicted of God's will concerning the matter in hand. The decision reached is no longer merely that of a meeting (at the mere human level) but is the decision of Christ Himself working through His corporate Body. I believe that it is through such a means that Christ will one day rule the nations and that the rising interest in this form of decision-making that we now see is the Holy Spirit moving the Church toward something that will eventually pass beyond the Church into what will become an increasingly Christian "secular" world. The practice has long been a feature of Quaker decision making. More at; westernfriend.org/media/quakr-style-method-governance quaker.org.uk/documents/how-quaker-meetings-take-decisions-2006 oikoumene.org/resources/documents/eden-grace-on-quaker-business-practice

Yes, I'm not too worried about them. My greater concern is with the more extreme pre-Mills whose doctrine tends to take away any incentive for Christians to do anything to improve conditions here and now. According to their doctrine, we can only rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic!

What can I say, Not Me, to your latest but AMEN, AMEN! Please don't think me presumptuous, but I would like to ask anyone reading the article on "Christ as us and the Kingdom of God" to pass on the link to as many people as possible and to otherwise distribute it as widely as each person can. Not because it is a good article, but because I believe that it contains something of great importance which should be discussed and prayed about by as many people as possible. If the church is to avoid the opposite pitfalls of the Manifest Sons of God (or something similar) and the retreat mentality of extreme re-mill teaching, something like this approach is needed; Christ ruling through people who are completely open to him. That is what the church needs to be teaching today, for the time is right. Amen, praise God, for bringing his reward Amen, praise God for justice now restored Kingdoms of the world become the Kingdom of the Lord Love has the victory forever (sung to the tune of "Marching through Georgia") Norman Grubb was led to his conclusion through a personal crisis of faith. While a missionary in Africa, he was distressed that he could not love the African people as he knew that Jesus did. So he prayed that God would grant him such love but, in effect, the answer that God gave him was for he (NG) to simply cease trying and allow the love of Jesus to flow through him. From this personal experience, he found the core of his life's mission to the wider church.

Hi BeauJangles, Sorry for delay, but I have been offline. I don't agree with the manifest sons of God movement but I think of them as a mistaken interpretation of the sort of idea that is suggested in the article. I think that we are moving into a phase in which THE Son of God will be manifested through his surrendered people. Norman Grubb was a very deep Christian thinker who, more clearly than most, understood the implications of Christ within. A good, and brief, introduction to his thought is the little book "Its as Simple as This" which can be found free online. Simple, but not easy! Blessings

“it matters not the doing, only who’s doing the doing.” I like that! The Kingdom of God is a mosaic and the part we play, be it large or small, fits where God intends it to fit into the whole. There are two contrary approaches to the Kingdom on Earth. One is the theonomic post-millennialist and "manifest sons of God" approach where it is believed that the Kingdom can be brought into manifestation through the rule of Christians acting as Christ's representatives. The other extreme is the extreme pre-millennialist view where we can do nothing, where all will get worse, until Christ comes again. Both are, I believe, wrong to some degree and right to some degree. The first is correct in that we play a role in the building of the Kingdom while the second is right in leaving it all to Christ. These are only reconciled by the belief that Christ works through us; that we are not to "represent" Christ but to simply allow him to work through us. I believe that this is an urgent matter for the church at this time. Norman Grubb was used by God to emphasize this aspect of the Gospel (he did not invent the doctrine, but God enabled him to see it more clearly htan most.

You are right about not getting too hung up over relatively minor matters when there are such important things raised here. The really vital matter, as it seems to me, is to move from "Christ in me" to "Christ acting through me" (more or less = "Christ as me"). Grubb taught that God created humans to be (as it were) receptacles of God the Holy Spirit in this world. He taught that only God possessed true personhood in the absolute sense and that we are persons only through our relationship with God. Think of an analogy involving the Sun and Moon. Strictly speaking, there is no such thing as moonlight; it is only sunlight reflected from the Moon and if the Sun stopped shining, the Moon would be dark and invisible. If we fantasize that the Moon could think, imagine that it becomes deluded into believing that it is generating moonlight and not just reflecting sunlight. In its mind, it has become a little sun! Similarly, in Grubb's view, human beings only (as it were) "reflect" personhood. God is the Sun and we are the Moon. But we (like the Moon in our analogy) came to think of ourselves as autonomous persons - little gods so to speak - and it was in doing this that we split ourselves away from God and sin and evil entered the world. Christian ethicist Michael Hill said that to sin is to use something for a purpose other than that for which God created it and here we see the misuse of ourselves. God created us to be receptacles of the Holy Spirit and we misused these intended receptacles as independent persons. The very core of these persons (us) is sin - "sin within" motivates us. Everything that enhances our self or ego is the root of sin. But if we are born again of the Spirit, then our inner sin has been taken to the Cross - Christ has paid the price on our behalf and now he lives within us. For the Christian, any ego-enhancing thought must be recognized as the result of sin within and, as each such thought arises, we must claim Christ's victory over it. But all thoughts and desires that put the Kingdom first and all desires to confirm with God's law arise from Christ in us. So to have Christ act through us (or as us) we must put away the former desires and act on the latter until the former fade away and the latter - those arising from Christ within - become habitual. Then God can direct us to where he wants us, whether this is in the role of a wife and mother, factory worker or President of the United States.

I think that God will raise up the sort of Christians whom Grubb would describe as "Christ-as-us" Christians (yes, Not Me, I agree that this term is not the best; I prefer "Christ acting through us" but I use the term to identify with Grubb's terminology) to take leadership positions in church, government and society in general. Eventually, the rule of Christ will come to complete manifestation through these surrendered people. Michael Cassidy's work in South Africa can be seen as a foretaste of this, I think.

I would like to direct you to an article "Christ as Us and the Kingdom of God" that further develops some thoughts published here earlier. The article is found at daffydd.simplesite.com and concerns some implications of the teaching of Norman Grubb. I believe that the topic is one that will become increasingly important in the years ahead.

I have published a version of an earlier post at this site in the hope and prayer that it will be open to a wider readership (anyone is free to copy and distribute at any time and in any place). It is found at daffydd.simplesite.com (yes, the spelling is different as the single "f" name has apparently been used already!). I do really think that God is moving the church to take seriously the call to have Christ live not just "in" us but "as" us in Norman Grubb's sense, and thereby "through" us in both the church and (by degrees) eventually in all social situations. As God chose Luther as a vehicle through which the central doctrine of salvation by grace through faith was illuminated, so (I believe) God chose Norman Grubb as the instrument through whom divine light was shed on the doctrine of Christ being the Life of our life. You may like to read (prayerfully and thoughtfully) "The Calvary Road" by R. Hession (Preface by Norman Grubb) at http://www.christianissues.biz/pdf-bin/sanctification/thecalvaryroad.pdf "It's As Simple As This" by Norman Grubb at www.normangrubb.com/Its%20as%20simple%20as%this.htm and, for an earlier publication "The Way from Darkness to True Illumination" by Jacob Boehme at www.passtheword.org/DIALOGS-FROM-THE-PAST/darklite.htm Could it be that the time is coming when Christ will rule through people who are in such a state of surrender that they are moved only by the Holy Spirit; that disputes are settled by handing the issue over to God alone and simple waiting upon the direction of the Holy Spirit and not by pressing for one's own ideas? Could it be that people of faith are being called to make this wonderful truth known in the wider church? Could YOU be one of these people???

Lewis did not believe in Purgatory in the RC sense and did not believe that it "purged" us from sin. Only the Blood of Jesus can do that as you rightly say. But he did believe that there is a sort of "correction" after death. Paul also seemed to have believed this as he spoke about appearing at the judgment seat of Christ (Rom 14:10, 2 Cor 5:10). Those who appear here are already saved but still need to be assessed by Christ. The word translated "judgment" is one used for the inspection of troops in an army, deciding upon reward or discipline.

I should add that this post should also be read together with my earlier one, "A Way to Seek First the Kingdom". They both really go together. Many blessings.