Deez131

I emailed you a Bible commentary web site. Let me know if you don't get it.

I've actually gotten used to the less than amicable feelings and words toward Calvinism over the years. I was raised in the Mormon "church." It is only by His grace that He brought me out of that. I'm telling you though, seriously..... Christians used to be nice to me when I was a Mormon. They would listen to what I was saying and be all nice. Now that I am a Christian, man! It hasn't been really bad at all on these boards, but usually it's like pure hatred. How DARE I tell anyone they didn't bring about their own salvation. I could tell someone (when I was Mormon) that God was once a human man from another planet called Kolob and had many wives who he had sex with to create spirit children to populate this world - and I would get all smiles and warmness. Tell someone God is sovereign over them and they don't have the power to bring about their own salvation and...... wham! No one likes to hear that. I don't get it.

My head is beginning to hurt from banging it against the wall. Again.....No, Calvinism doesn't teach this. Quite the contrary. The teaching is that man makes a choice for God because God has made him alive and turned the man's heart toward God. Man WANTS to make that choice. I'm struggling to see the problem with that. Would you rather God just leave us to our sins and not make us alive? I know. I know. You say we have it within our power to make that choice for Christ. It's all within our power. Man's power. I disagree. I don't believe man has the natural ability to choose Christ. We are positionally dead in sin. We are unable to pull the power out of ourselves to make that choice, thus obtaining or turning down our own salvation. God does have that power though and uses it to save us. He's the one with the power - not man. Finally, something we agree on.

Maybe the term "Calvinism." Reformed Theology - or whatever you want to label it has always been there. It's another term for Bible believing Christian in my book. I was simply trying to make the point that the "mythological" accusation was quite far fetched. I believe how we individually define God and His sovereignty has everything to do with how we understand the doctrines of election, justification etc..... I am saying that I define God as sovereign over man. As having the power to save someone without having to depend on that person to complete the act. I am saying that I believe Adam's effect on man was not just a blip that makes it "hard" to come to Christ, it makes it impossible - without God's grace. That's why it's called God's grace. What kind of gift is someone really accepting from God if they do part of the work in their salvation? God doesn't need our permission to save us. He is a holy and awesome God. He can do with His creation what He wants to do with it - and all for His glory. You have two people.....one is saved and the other isn't. Why is that? Because one somehow mustered up the faith on their own to call out to Christ? What makes that person any more special that he can do it? That would give him room for boasting. Not that he would, but the implication is there. "Well, I chose God so I am smarter, wiser, stronger than the other person." Kind of a crazy analogy, but I'm just trying to make a point. I don't believe that any person has it within themselves to make that choice for Christ. You can't get it "from within." That's one of the biggest myths out there today. God has to give you the faith to be even able to choose Him. We are dead in sin. Not just mortally wounded, we are dead. Dead men don't make choices. God has to make us alive. These sentences are so easily thrown around in todays churches, but I don't think many people take the time to really understand what they mean. God's grace? How is it God's grace if we make the ultimate decision of whether we're going to be saved or not? It's His grace that gives us the faith in the first place to be able to choose Him. Dead in sin. There's another phrase so easily thrown around. I don't think people really believe it. It's preached from the pulpits, but it's become of no effect to many people. They don't really understand that when you're dead in sin, you can't make "alive" choices. God has to bring you to spiritual life first. This is so easy to understand. It makes perfect sense, but I'm back to how people view God. I believe God is sovereign. I don't know many Christians that will refuse to say that, but I don't believe they really believe it. Like RC Sproul said: God is free and we are free. But God is more free than we are. When our freedom bumps up against God's sovereignty, our freedom must yield. To say that God's sovereignty is limited by man's freedom is to make man sovereign. If we are saying that God depends on us to make the final choice of whether or not we will be saved, we are saying that we are more sovereign than God. I can't and won't buy into that. I serve a holy and awesome God and I refuse to confine Him to that kind of box. Denise

That is not what Calvinism is and I have never said God forces anyone to be saved. That is your interpretation of what Calvinism is. That is not what Reformed Theology actually teaches. I'm not speaking for Craig, but you seem to be rather upset that there are some people going to hell and the fact that God actually knows - and chooses to allow for them to go there. That's actually not what Calvinism teaches at all. On the contrary, we believe exactly what the scriptures teach. God tells us to preach and read the Bible. I'm beginning to wonder where you've gotten your information on Calvinism. Could it be that you've talked with Hyper-Calvinists? Someone that takes what it clearly teaches in scripture and goes to extremes with it, thus changing the meaning? I'm quite sure that you're not understanding true Reformed Theology. You keep using the term "forced."

Exactly.

Blasphemy is simply speaking evil of God, which this above statement definitely is doing. How can anyone say otherwise? That God would save some for no reason or real choice of their own, and destroy others for no choice of their own? For the purpose of demonstration? To what end? If he has already predestined man's decisions, then a demonstration serves no purpose either. First of all, I did not say for 100% sureness that the reason is for demonstration, as you are making it appear. I said, if you would like to look back a page or so, that I don't know why God saves some and doesn't save some. I would like to ask Him someday. As far as I can tell, He does certain things for demonstration. THAT is what I said. You have GOT to be kidding me, right? Ya know, I really thought I had heard all of the objections to Reformed Theology over the years, but I'll have to admit - you just floored me. Where did you come up with that? For anyone's information, Reformed Theology, Calvinism, The Doctrines of Grace, whatever you want to call them are not some new crazy thing that some wacko has made up. Reformation Theology is historically grounded in the church and used to be what the Protestant denominations held to years ago(the Belgic and Heidelberg Confessions of Faith). It was what was considered Biblical. Certain men decided to try and change those doctrines that were considered Biblical. Reformed Theology is not grounded in Greek and Roman Mythology. Here's the basic history: History of Calvinism

icdchillin1, I read your comments on the scriptures I posted. I could post commentaries on what the passages mean, but that would take up pages and pages of room. Instead, I'm going to post a URL for anyone who wants to use it. It is a Bible commentary that is very easy to use. It's broken down into books and very clearly explained. I'm posting it IF I can figure out how to do it. Matthew Henry's Commentary And I do, although I'm not sure what you mean by "even you." I believe we are supposed to spread the gospel. I also believe that we should spread the gospel according to the Word of God. That is what I am trying to do. It is very important to me to hold to sola scriptura, which is why I'm so passionate about the issues we have been discussing. This CAN be a civil, Biblical discussion. Just read the discussions before the whole blasphemy thing. Attacks are unjustified and unnecessary. I realize these topics are very important to a lot of people. For me, they define God and the salvation He brought about in my life. That's about as high up on the list as you can get in my book. As far as being separated, we don't need to be. We are separated as far as what we believe the Bible to be saying, but as Christian brothers and sisters and showing love and respect, there's no reason for the separation. We should be reasoning from the scriptures, not hurling insults.

I'm a little confused as well. Are you talking "others" as in people (friends) praying for you OR are you talking about praying to God and then "others?" If that's the case, skip the others. I assume they are people that are no longer living. YIKES!!! Pray to God and Him alone. He's the only one who can do anything about anything.

NASB is my favorite. I also mark it up and highlight.

The way I understand it is that blasphemy is a sin done with words. Verbal, written, whatever.....ascribing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan - or making that work equal to Satan.

I don't think you'll be very useful that way.

I'll witness to anyone using the same passage anyone else would use. Whosoever believes is just as safe to use from my point of view. The whole Bible is filled with different people witnessing. I'm not going to change my technique just because I believe that God is the one who saves. You use the exact same Bible and same phrases.

Regarding Romans 9 and the question of whether Paul is talking about corporate (the nation of Israel) or individual salvation

But how do you know who is going to be saved and who isn't? We, as humans can't determine who will be saved and who won't. It's a command of God to preach His word. If that person we're talking to is not going to be saved, then they aren't going to be saved. You don't know how or when God will use you to bring His word to people. I just know we're supposed to. That's good enough for me.

First, welcome to the boards. Secondly, I understand what you're saying. I won't say I know where you're coming from because I've always known that God does exist. I would have a hard time putting myself in your shoes. The other side of that is that you would probably have a hard time putting yourself in my shoes. So, we're pretty even here. I am wondering what led you here to the Christian boards. If you're not a Christian, and don't believe in God, why here? Don't take that the wrong way. You are very welcome here, I'm just curious. Could you even consider the possibility that you may have been led here for a reason? If you can even consider that possibility, stick around and see what happens. You've got nothing to loose. Denise

............ You're cool.

One thing that tends to make conversations like this frustrating is when someone just throws something out there with no explanation or backup. In talking about the problem of Israel, Paul states very clearly that God has a right to choose some and a right to reject others

Man....sometimes God works really quick, huh? LOL

Yes. In the 9th chapter of Romans, Paul makes it clear that some are chosen for Heaven and some are going to remain in their sin and go to Hell. He says they are "prepared for destruction." Why God chooses to save some and chooses to allow others to be those vessels prepared for destruction, I don't know. I have an "Ask God" list. That question is on it. As far as I can tell, He does a lot of things, including NOT saving some --- for demonstration. Put it this way: Why did God have Abraham bring Isaac to the mountain, and almost kill him, and stop him right before he did it? Why does he allow any process to go on in our lives? Demonstration would be one reason. To ourselves and to others. You might say, well, who was God trying to demonstrate to? No one was up on that mountain to see what was going on? How about Isaac? I'll bet that had a huge impact on his life! God uses us to work out His will....and sometimes that involves good things happening to us...and sometimes bad things. But, like Romans 8:28 says: God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. This is how I see it: Bill picks Jim for whatever reason he decides to (which has nothing to do with Jim's ability). Bill supernaturally changes Jim's heart (or his will) to want to be on Bill's team. It's still a free choice on Jim's part, but there is no way that he would choose any other team because Bill's allready worked in him supernaturally to make sure that Jim is on his team. Jim is happy as heck because he knows he made the right choice and he's on a winning team. It's kind of hard to use human analogys because there are just too many differences in power between us and God. I think a way to clear this whole thing up is to go to the heart of the differences we're having in this discussion. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I take it that you believe it is within man's power as an unregenerate sinner, to choose God. I don't believe that. I believe that it is not within our power to be able to make a choice for Christ UNLESS He's already changed our hearts, thus we would be saved before the verbal words or "accepting" Him came out of our mouth. I know I'm gonna get the arguement from someone about how God commands us to repent and believe - and that He wouldn't tell us to do that unless it was within our power. But WHO CAN repent and believe? I believe the Bible makes it clear that only His sheep know and can respond to His voice. John 10: 25-30: Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one. It's a perfect plan. The Father gave His Son a gift of His people. His Son did the work of salvation for His people on the cross. The Holy Spirit does the work of bringing His people to Him by His Spirit. It's a perfect balance of the Trinity working in perfect harmony. Just to back that point up a little, look at the 6th chapter of John (verses 37-39) All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. Verse 44 is pretty clear as well: No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. We're not ABLE to come to Him unless we are drawn by the Holy Spirit. That would pretty much make it a sure thing that the people God chooses WILL be saved because it's Him that is doing the drawing. I could keep going, but I know this is getting long. There's so much that intertwines in all this stuff that it makes it difficult to just cover one thing. That's what I'm telling you about all of this fitting together for me. To me, it all fits together and makes perfect sense Biblically. Denise