RonaldBruno
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Posts posted by RonaldBruno
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On 10/16/2019 at 3:55 PM, Dennis1209 said:
My thoughts mostly mirror your own with some variations. As we look around at society, evil laws that have been passed and currently being bantered about and proposed. The hearts of many politicians, liberals, protected classes of people, global dictators, Hollywood, celebrities, millions of aborted babies, mass killings, violent video games, Islam's hate toward Jew's and Christianity and martyrdom, etc. Could we say that the following verse is growing legs?
Genesis 6:5 (KJV) And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [emphasis mine]
I personally think there's more to the story "as in the days of Noah". Jesus didn't have to go that far back in history for His example. I've discussed it many times and will not repeat myself, but I believe Genesis 6: 1-4 is involved also.
I too agree the time frame is between 2018 - 2028 based on Psalm 90:10 and Israel becoming a nation again in one day on May 14, 1948. In my mind the Bible is clear that true Christians watching for the return of Christ, will not be taken by surprise; but those left behind will.
I think it very possible the Lord's return could occur on an anniversary of something or Jewish feast celebration, but. I don't know that the accuracy of the calendar with all the changes that have occurred is accurate or not? I doubt it is because no one was left in Jerusalem after the diaspora in 70 A.D. to keep track of anything.
I'm a pretribulation believer. We do not know the day nor the hour, but like I said above, I don't believe we will be taken by surprise. I surely don't believe we will be snatched up during any point in the tribulation, much less at the sounding of the seventh trumpet in the tribulation. Trumpets are used to announce an action or something important that's about to begin, or a call to muster. Most often the number "seven" is associated with trumpets [Revelation, Jericho, etc.]. I often wondered in this generation if I haven't already gone to be with the Lord, and the Rapture happens; how much 'time' will we have to savor the moment and enjoy it, before in a twinkling of an eye the dead in Christ rise first [will we watch it?], and our bodies transformed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air?
I'm speculating what Paul might be saying in the following verse, but 'seven' is the number of biblical completeness used time, time and again.
1 Corinthians 15:52 (KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [emphasis mine]
Could this possibly mean we will hear six warning blasts of the shofar in preparation for the seventh? The last trump indicates there is trumps that precede the last. Again, this is but speculation on my part but it seems logical and makes sense to me. I truly believe we don't have very long to find out.
Look at how wicked society and the world has become exponentially in just this generation. What's it going to look like in five, ten years from now???
Good post - like - minded on most aspects.
A few points concerning the last trumpet - If the rapture occurs at the seventh trumpet, then we must assume that we have to endure the first six- however long that takes . Only if they are blown quickly as to signal the beginning and development of the events triggered by each trumpet but before the destruction takes effect, could the Pre-Trib view be correct. Also they are not shofar trumpets blown by humans. They are blown by angels in heaven, so we won't hear them!
In Revelation 6:9, when the fifth seal is opened, John saw Christians who had been slain _ in heaven_ asking how much longer and Jesus responded, "until both the number of their fellow servants and their brothers who would be killed as they were, was completed." That's somewhere in the middle of the GT, before the last trump. This would dispel a pre-Trib view.
Who knows, maybe DONALD is the last Trump? ?
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On 10/14/2019 at 8:44 AM, simplejeff said:
Left, Right, Middle, Outfield, Leftfield, Rightfield, Out-of-bounds , everywhere is subject to the prince of the power of the air, all the sons of disobedience (that we all once were also). RE: Ephesians.
The one world government is nothing new, noting that it has been the 'goal' of the enemy for 2000 years , or more.
Same with the countries of the world, everywhere - the leaders of all the countries have committed spiritual fornication with the beast for centuries. This is nothing new, and nothing restricted to only some politic parties nor to only some countries.
If/ when/ there is any exception at all, it is by and in Yahweh's Sovereignty, His Control, His Will, His Plan, and is few in the world, as written.
That wasn't my point. I said the Left (meaning the Democrats AND the Mainstream Media) are pushing for this One World Government which is a socialist regime, right in line with what the Bible says and apparently that struck a cord with you -- are you a Democrat? BTW, everything is not subject to Satan, He can mess with us but cannot snatch us out of the Father's hand, He cannot harm us spiritually but will certainly attack Israel and those who follow Christ. Physical death, torture, persecution because of our beliefs has been experienced throughout history and will continue until Jesus locks him up and rids the planet of sin and evil.
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Jesus is the narrow path to salvation, we've all agreed with that. None of this was about whether we are saved or not. And I am not trying to convince you of my view - which may not be right.
That said, the Beast is spiritually controlled by Satan and throughout history has manifest itself as particular nations: Egypt, Babylon, Medo/Persian, Greek, Roman and the Ottoman Empire as well. IMHO_ today _ it is Islam. Turkey, Iran, Syria, Iraq, Lybia, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Jordan, or various other Islamic nations will join forces, surround Israel and attack. I dont see any revised Roman Empire ... as if the EU are untied about anything, nor would they join to attack Israel anytime soon. The USA are strong allies with Israel- Russia wouldn't dare, although they now have a base in Syria and are instrumental in equipping them and Iran with nuclear to prepare for such a war. Maybe they think they will pick up the pieces when it's over.
THE Bible does say all nations will attack Israel. Yet I still think that means their surrounding foes, not the entire world of nations - I could be wrong. A one world government is what the Left is pushing for but that would take time - unless they win in 2020. ?
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1 hour ago, dhchristian said:
I Agree More than I disagree with you. The Only part I disagree with you on is the tie in of the beast from the Bottomless pit that kills the two witnesses, with the Antichrist. I see the beast from the bottomless pit as a distinct and separate beast in Revelation from the Antichrist... Very few agree with me on this, as it is not your standard eschatology. I see the Beast form the bottomless pit as Azazel, the fallen Angel chained in the bottomless pit or Tarturus.
I never said anything about the Beast coming from the bottomless pit. I think the Beast is a group of ten Islamic nations that the Anitchrist joins together "in one hour" to attack Israel.
I mentioned 200 million demon locusts and horsemen released from the Bottomless at the sound of the 5th Trumpet.
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On 10/11/2019 at 10:52 AM, dhchristian said:
We have all been through great disappointments in the Past, the Blood moons, Daniel's timeline, the 1988 thing, Harold camping, etc. They are all looking in the wrong place with the wrong glasses. I Agree with you on mid trib, though I am pre-wrath on the rapture. I encourage you to explore this in your study of revelation, when does Judgment and tribulation end and wrath begin. Then You will find your time of peace and safety.... Clue: it lasts for 3.5 days and everyone will be celebrating during that time, and then sudden destruction.
I guess the Mid - Tribbers have various views within as well. The whole end time scenario is a Great Tribulation - seals, trumpets and bowls.
I am also a Pre-wrath adherent , since wrath comes in the Seven Bowls. It's also interesting that once the bowls are released, no one repents from that point onward, they curse and war against God. That's true insanity. The Church is gone along with The Restrainer/ Holy Spirit, so man is left to himself without restraint, without any good left, with no hope. Anger, hate, fear dominate the world with no where else to go, but down
Yes we are gone by that time - because we are not appointed to wrath. The seventh trumpet (The last), releases the seven bowls; so that would most likely fall in the middle, nut closer to the end. It could be that the bowls are released after 1260 days, leaving 75 days of wrath. It's not clear though. The TWO WITNESSES are supposed to preach to the Jews in the streets for 1260 days, then the Antichrist kills them and 3 days later they are resurrected. This event could be synchronized with the last trumpet/rapture.
The destruction from the Flood lasted forty days, then it stopped. So it is possible that the bowl events last that long as well, an extension of time added to the 1260 days.
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38 minutes ago, R. Hartono said:
That will brilliantly DEBUNK all the theories that rapture will take place at the last trump of a series of trumpet events as many have figured out. I think it will be very informative if you make a separate thread about this.
It's a conundrum. I have mixed thoughts, I really expected the GT to have started by 2018. It is not easy to debunk any one of the many views in the end times scenario. I have been for a long time, a Mid-tribber, thinking that we must go through the first six trumpets, the last warnings, and at the sound of the awventh, we would be raptured. Some think the last trumpet to be not a part of that series, but either separate (of God) Lord in a series blown during the Feast If Trumpets, just prior to Yom Kippur.
But they are blown by angels, they are not blown on earth. They are blown in heaven - outside of time. We are shown each episode for perspective as we read through Revelation, but the events are not chronological. The trumpets could be blown rapidly as the orders are released and then death and destruction accumulating on earth.
The Pre-Tribbers say nothing precedes the rapture supported by several verses, one if which is "As in the days of Noah". The other main point they hammer is that God will not appoint us to wrath. But the Wrath is within the Seven Bowls. Then they are wrapped up in the 70th Week of Daniel and the building of a new Temple - which I do not agree with.
The Post -Tribbers have us enduring the whole GT and they have their list of arguments too. Certainly we would be appointed to wrath, if they were correct, whether we died or persevered through it, we get saved - but wow, who wants to witness all that? I would prefer not having to go through any of it.
Honestly, I am unsure, therefore, cannot debunk any view - except an Amillennial view, which I do not care to suffer.
"When they say Peace and Safety, sudden destruction comes upon them ..." And who can say that now, the U.S., the world, Israel? Since Israel is at the center of the GT, they would have to be saying it. A Peace Treaty was supposed to be a signal. The Obama Iranian Nuclear Deal was really a treaty but not ratified by Congress so was not labeled one. That was done on May 22, 2015. 3 1/2 years from that brings us to Nov. 2, 2018. Nothing happened so that wasn't it. The Trump Administration authored an Israeli-Palestinian Peace Plan, "Peace and Prosperity" set to start on June 22, 2019, but since he recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel in 2017 and would move the Embassy to Jerusalem, the Palestinians, led by Abbas, cut ties with Trump. Who can really satisfy them. Israel has given up much land and it will never be enough. They want Israel annihilated (as do the Iranians and much of the Islamic world) and Jerusalem as their Capital.
So peace and safety apparently is futile in that region. ???
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On 10/8/2019 at 7:18 PM, Heybro said:
Ronald, what is it that you think you have to fix on a daily basis? Jesus has already done it, He said, "It is finished." Our response then is to live our lives daily unto Him, repent, keep short accounts, and be ever looking unto Jesus, The Author and Finisher of our faith. God bless.
"It is finished" referres to His First Coming, to die for our sins and resurrect from the dead, opening up the gates of heaven, ushering in Salvatuom by Grace.
Does it look to you that God is finished with mankind? His ultimate plan is to rid the world of sin and evil, leaving only His own -- the meek shall inherit the earth. A Great Tribulation period precedes the Millennial Kingdom. Then another brief episode with Satan and sin after the 1000 years ... then a new heaven and a new earth, for all former Things will pass away.
No, He is not finished. Finished with the construct of the way to salvation, by Grace through faith in Christ. But JUDGMENT DAY is yet to come.
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18 hours ago, Sonshine☀️ said:
I believe we are supposed to be keeping our eyes on Israel (Jerusalem).
Luke 21:20-22 King James Version (KJV)
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Yes, Jerusalem will be in the center of it. Netanyahu just stated that an attack from Iran us imminent - probaly in a couole weeks! Since Trump is pulling troops out of Syria, Israel feels like we don't have their back. We do, just pulling out if Syria. But Turkey just bombed the Kurds in spite of it all. Many Israel nations, I believe ten will come againat Israel, since I do believe the Beast manifested as Islam.
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Agreed, I'm not worried though, just hopefully anticpating His return to fix this mess that I'm constantly reminded of on a daily basis.
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Rev. 12 speaks of both past and future. Lucifer's fall from heaven and taking with him 1/3 if the angels happened closer to Creation. Then the birth of Christ is mentioned and later His death, resurrection and ascension. Satan did attack Israel and has been in against Christians as well since then. But then it jumps to future events as well, with the 1260 days. But some scholars even think that was AD 67-70, when not only Chri a titans were persecuted, but also Jerusalem destroyed. Chapter 12 is in part a summation of the mission of Satan from beginning to end.
I am not a Preterist, I am a Pre-Millennialist, but we must keep in mind, in the beginning of Revelation, it does tell us that these visions include past, present and future events - all given for perspective. Sorting them out is tricky, they are not chronological. We are given different vantage points and so we see the same events in different settings, trumpets and bowls within the seals all woven together like a multidimensional transparent sphere that we have to turn to examine different angles.
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The Second Coming will come suddenly. For many years I thought that the trumpet events would be the last warnings before the last trumpet sounded. If that were so, it would not surprise us - at least those who are in the Light. Those who are in darkness will be taken by surprise. They will be going about their normal everyday activities, and planning for the future because in their minds, life will go on as it has for thousands of years. And if they do see catastrophic events happening, they will interpret it as a natural event, not an act of God or some prophetic warning sign. Yet a super volcanic eruption, an asteroid or a nuclear war may get their attention. Then they will flock to the churches- if anyone is there to preach to them.
But what if all we experience as warnings are what we've seen happening in the last 50 years: the gradual worldly dissent into immorality; along with the wars, rumors of wars, famine, pestilence and earthquakes in various places, etc. ?
Is it possibly that His coming will not only resemble the days of Noah before the Flood, but also happen on the same day, on the 2nd month, 17th day? And then if so, what year? Somewhere between the 70-80 years that refers to one generation in Psalm 90:10 and beginning from 1948.
The Day of Atonement is approaching and then on Nov. 15, the anniversary of Noah's Flood.
Noah and His family knew, they were warned and they prepared 100 years for it. As his family knew and prepared, so do we know He is Coming and we are prepared and not in the dark.
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I like what someone else said, "Are we not all toxic in some way?"
SIN IS TOXIC and we are all sinners _ some being over the top who areny aware if their sin and do not have the LORD. And we cannot disassociate ourselves with all unbelievers and not show mercy, for who would lead them to THE LIGHT, who would show them God's LOVE if not us?
But yes, we need to set boundaries, and not let their sins affect us personally. Like with your own two-year old child on the floor kicking and screaming, carrying on, testing you, manipulating you, lying, rebellious and totally self focused; we must take a step back, shake our heads and not let it affect us, but be forthright with tough love and displine.
I think we see many adults who have been brought up in our generation by parents who have spared the rod and thus spoiled the child. Absence of father and proper discipline leads to these toxic behaviors.
Very good post to contemplate!
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I think of when Jesus was punched, and the Roman guards said, "Prophecy, who hit you?" Or when the Pharisees challenged him to come down from the cross ... "If you are the Messiah, save yourself, come down ..." Or Herod, "You are a king?" Then laughing.
I think all the OP scriptures above reflect a rebellious sinful nature in a broad sense.
I think we can tighten this up a bit. Specifically, mocking is any use of scripture repeated in a rebellious way as to ridicule and reject God directly. Even outside scripture, to make a derogtory statement of doubt that God is who He is or the created the universe, and all that that is good.
Likened to a Mocking bird that repeats dozens of bird sounds, yet doesn't know what they mean; people mock God, ridicule Him by repeating what He says in His Word, without knowledge or wisdom, to rebel, reject and assault God. They are insults, disrespectful, coming from blind souls that will not go unpunished. God will punish them.
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Gen 2 is speaking an extension of chapter one, it is filling in details, a common Hebrew literary style.
The chapter begins with the statement that God finished His work of creating the heavens and the earth and everything in it and rested on the seventh day. That first verse is a summary of Chapter ONE. And Moses summarizes it simply and clearly: Everything was finished. It did not need evolution. He made finished living organisms, whether mature trees or seedlings in the ground, as a flourishing garden would be.
Your translation of Gen 2:4 uses "generations". In various other translations, "history", "account" or "origins" are used. So the account of creation in verses 5 &6 speak of the "day" when He specifically made the botanical garden. You stated, "generations" means a "trans-formative stages of creation". No it doesn't, it's just giving you a more detailed account and then continuing on about the climate, rivers and garden.
He describes an environment that did not have rain, but a mist went up and watered everything. It was like a water canopy that protected life from harmful UV rays, which some scientists say shortens life at a cellular level. Then more details are filled reiterating what was stated in chapter one, that he created man and goes into more details.
As far as Gen. 8 goes, the olive tree, which has a lifespan of over three hundred years, can thrive in altitudes of up to 20,000 feet (The Ark is said to have rested at 14,500 feet on Mt. Ararat. Many trees survive being underwater during flood periods. I don't know if these trees died or lied dormant and then came to life again. I suppose the time it took for the waters to recede from 20k feet to 14k feet, maybe a month or so, a tree could start sprouting leaves. God can do that, He wasn't angry with the trees. As a matter of God's power, He could sustain all plant life that wasn't ripped out of the ground by rapid flowing currents and as soon as the ground appear, immediately sprout a leaf for the dove to pick!
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$teven posted rebuttal: Good topic for discussion, although I would point out that Genesis chapter 1 does not say 6 24-hour days. It does say six days, yes, but we also know that they weren't six days as measured by cycles of the sun and moon, since they didn't exist until the fourth day. The days were indeed alternating periods of darkness and light but not on account of the sun rising and setting.
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RonaldBruno response: The earth rotating on its axis completes its cycle in 23 the. 56 min. The light came from God at that time and the darkness was on the opposite side.
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$teven added: That is true, the Light was on account of God's presence and Darkness being His absence - which is analogous to the state of one's soul when His spirit is present and when it's not.
Therefore, I would surmise Light isn't necessarily a state of illumination but that indicating God's presence. Hence, a day would be counted as the duration of 'time' when God was present and at work, bringing our world into being. How long was each working day in actual human hours? Who knows?
Consider this statement by Jesus himself from John 9:4 "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: thenight cometh, when no man can work." This is also reflective of what was happening as our world took shape. Jesus wasn't referring to illumination in the physical sense when he used the term 'day' but rather the presence of God on earth - which he was.
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RonaldBruno : You are changing the literary meaning of light. The context is creation and God just created the earth and light (the physical spectrum) on the first day. The darkness was not something symbolic for God's absence, He was not absent. The darkness is identified as night as we all know and understand what that means. Your idea that it couldn't be a 24 hour/day because the sun and moon were'nt created yet, is not logical since when the sun and moon are created on day 4, their creation was also identified as occurring within one day. And since the botanicals were created on day 3, they needed the sun on day 4, not thousands or millions of years later!
$teven: I'm not attempting to change the meaning of light at all, merely pointing out terminology used in scripture isn't necessarily literal. Case in point, Genesis 2:4 states: These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens. Clearly, the term 'day' used in this instance is not literally a period of 24 hours - as we've both agreed Creation was a six-day process. Note as well the use of 'generations' to describe the transformative stages of Creation, instead of days.
Consider this excerpt from Genesis 8: [8] Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; [9] But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark. [10] And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark; [11] And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf plucked off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.
Logically speaking, what do you suppose the odds are that an olive tree submerged in torrents for over 10 or 11 months would still have a leaf remaining on its branches for that dove to take back to Noah. I'm quite certain in the resurrection all these improbable and seemingly impossible things will be quite clear to us. However, for now, I see them as potential distractions - as we are called to salvation to provide personal sanctuaries or dwelling places for God's spirit here on earth. And like Eden, there are conditions that apply. If our hearts and minds are susceptible to discussions about what is or what might be, we run the risk of being drawn from away from our central mandate. Remember, God said to Adam and Eve, 'do not eat the fruit. Don't even touch it.' They didn't have to know or understand why. Obeying God's command was enough.
At our place in time, our command is to love God and each other. We don't need to know or understand the 'how?' of our existence - except that it's God's doing.
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This topic was moved from the Worthy Welcome section. I've had a few responses, two in opposition and the rest just welcomes, but no general consensus.
Darwin had an effect on this world. He was not a believer in Christ, however, because his theory received SO MUCH opposition, he appeased them by saying he wasn't an atheist, but an agnostic. What's the difference? They are both unbelievers. By saying you are an agnostic, it avoids critisms, arguments ... guilt and shame I suppose. So saying you have doubts or the existence of God cannot be proven is a more neutral and less inflammatory position to take. My Dad was an atheistic and He used to tell us not to tell anyone ... ssshhh.
Anyways, after 160 years, only 10% of the planet are staunch atheists. But how has this indoctrination of the TOE in schools effected the rest of us? Well, most think it is a complicated theory involving sciences that they never care to delve into or challenge so they accept it. But how does this harmonize with Creationism? It doesn't, hence a compromise must take place. Theistic Evolution, where God started things out and natural took over and finished it, is the compromise. Oh, but of course, God is behind it all. That isn't what Genesis claims - literally. Genesis claims He created very physical thing living and non- living within SIX 24- hour days.
This BUMPS up against "science". Well, their science anyways.
So they must interpret Genesis to mean something to conform to this new view. Distort Genesis, call it an allegory and claim that God dis not make finished kinds but simpler forms that evolved into more complex life forms, and change what a day means That opens up a whole new way of looking at the entire Bible. So when something doesn't work with "science" (btw, this is not empirical science folks), then it must be symbolic and so you explain it away.
I for one am a YEC. I take Genesis and most of the Bible literally, including Revelation.
Appearing half of the Christians on earth accept this Theistic Evolution or Gravitational Evolution. I think Catholics do, but most Protestants don't.
I'm new here. What's the consensus on this forum?
"As in the days of Noah ..." Matt. 24:37
in Eschatology
Posted
Pre-Tribbers hold to Daniels 70th week and so the details within that view contain a 7 year Trib., a new Temple to be built from which the AOD accrues, 7 year Peace Treaty, etc. I believe Daniel 9:24-27 was fulfilled. The angel speaks of 70 weeks of years concerning Israel, the holy city - it was a prophecy accurate pointing to Christ's First Coming. The last week was complete, nevertheless it was during week that Christ appeared and was crucified.
What already happened? After 69 weeks He was cut off.
1. Christ dies for our sins putting an end to the law, finishing transgression and putting an end to sin, (spiritually).
2. He made reconciliation possible by grace through faith.
3. He imputed His everlasting righteousness into those who believe.
4. Vs. 26 speaks of the people of the prince to come will destroy the city and sanctuary- they did in 70 AD. This was added prophecy to happen decades after Christ ( not within the 70 weeks).
5. Christ did confirm a new convenant during His 3 1/2 year ministry and what was the outcome? He put an end to sacrifice. He was the final sacrifice.
6. Because of the abominations He made it desolate, He sent the Romans to destroy Jerusalem as He himself prophesied. And Israel remains spiritually desolate until the consumation, when He returns and lifts the veil of a remnant Israel (Rom. 11). He will pour His Spirit upon the desolate (Jews).
The GT is 3 1/2 years, and no need for a new Temple with sacrifices all over again. That would be an insult to God. Why would God ordain the Old system of Law again.
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So why would martyrs (the multitude in heaven who just came out of the GT) ask how long oh Lord until you judge and avenge ...? First if, like us, we are confused about the precise order and details of the future end time scenario. As some think its 7 years and other 3 1/2. Also they are outside of time, not having days, months as we do, not can they see what is going in on down there - so they ask. And this is more fore our perspective on earth, then theirs.