mobile21

Dear Thomas:

Thou shall not steal won't send us to hell, but is sin and if we steal we must make it right and repent/ restitution.

Where do you draw the "salvation/damnation" line????

If something has no consequences, does it really count as a sin????

If something goes against a commandment, but that action is not a sin, is the commandment wrong????.

Blessings.

Dear His Son:

John 3:3-5

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(KJV)

1 Pet 1:23-25

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

(KJV)

This should take care of any inquiries about being born again. Can't figure out why there should be a controversy about this?

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There's no controversy about what the Bible says.

There's controversy about the way some people interpret the meaning of being born again.

The Bible says: "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (Jn 3, 5)

Jesus is explaining exactly how the Sacrament works: God gives a specific grace at the same time the Minister gives the material sign of it (the water).

In other words: we can make a distinction on the theoretical level between the two, the water and the grace, but because they come together we can't make a practical distinction.

Despite what the Bible clearly syas, there are people who believe the "born again" process is different than that of Baptism. They claim that if you were baptized while being a child, you -as an adult- have to undergo a certain process so you can be "truly born again".

That would mean God's grace is subjective and not objective, and that's where we do not agree.

Blessings.

Hi all!

With time I came to realize that what went on in my life was not the devil's work but God's!.

The Bible tells us this:

"Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." (Heb 12, 10-11)

It turns out the Lord disciplined me and it was for the better; at the time I couldn't understand exactly what was going on, but everything I had to "suffer" taught me a lesson of a lifetime.

For all of you who wonder what causes lots of bad things in your life, think about the consequences that situation brings to your life: if the "fruit" is good then it comes from God even if it seems rather difficult to understand.

Blessings.

What a complete waste of bandwidth this thread turned out to be.

First, we are baited by a post and run. Then, a few insults are tossed around, and finally, the original issue is lost in pithy comments.

Any real reason for this one to stay open?

t.

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Actually, there is a reason...............

The reason is that too many ppl have been deceived by this false doctrine. Too many ppl believe in some "label" of "being born again" and think that no matter what they do, they'll be saved because of the "born again ritual".

I think that's a pretty good reason.

Blessings.

Dear Steve Hut:

Sacraments (Baptism included) provide an objective grace that does not depend on the individual

So the person doesn't have to have faith or repent to be baptized? That would be news to me.

Otherwise, yes, I agree with your point. Since Jesus says you have to be born again to be saved, and Christians claim to be saved, then how can you be saved without being born again? A very inconsistent position, indeed.

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I do not claim to be "saved".

You have to persevere till the very end to be saved, that's what Scripture says, so you have to keep being faithful from Baptism to death (till God grants you life here on Earth, that is).

This is why I say the "born again" doctrine makes no sense whatsoever; it's a doctrine that has no practical consequences because no matter how you put it, you have to persevere till the end.

Why to believe in a doctrine that is good for nothing? This is my point.

Blessings.

Greetings,

The thief on the cross was not baptized in water, yet he WAS "reborn" in the newness of the Holy Spirit.

Hi Ernie:

The thief was indeed baptized. There are 3 types of Baptism:

1) Baptism of water

2) Baptism of fire

3) Baptism of desire

The thief received the Baptism of desire. The grace is the very same in the 3 of them.

I shy away from those who insist that any of the sacraments are a necessary part of salvation.

Then again, this puts you at odds with Scripture since the Bible talks so much about those Sacraments...........!.

But for those, who like myself, participate in them, it is because we do those things in rememberance of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This sounds like "optional" and I don't think the truth is optional............... if you know something to be true, then you have to live according to that truth and not saying "it's all optional".

I think this idea of "optional" is yet another consequence of the "fear of commitment" thing of modern culture.

Ppl don't seem to want to be christians unless the only thing they have to do is to declare one time & one time only Jesus as their Lord & Savior. I believe the exact opposite is true: to be a christian is to have a commitment that lasts a lifetime.

Blessings.

Welcome back mobile!

Hi! & thanx.

"Born again" is just the Anglican modernized version of the phrase "born anew," which is another way of saying, "new birth."  Being born of the Spirit is a kind of new birth.  It is also described as regeneration in the Bible.  Once a believer receives Christ he is regenerated or born anew.  I personally do not believe in baptismal regeneration, and I do not believe that the Bible ever differentiates between believers who have been baptized and ones who have not.  I have not found any verse in the Bilble that explicitly states that a regenerated believer who has not been baptized, "goes to hell."  Furthermore, I have not found any restriction upon a believer in the number of times, or the manner in which he or she is baptized.  So I tend not to worry about it too much.

That's it for me in a nutshell.  I'll bow out here, except for brief answers, as I do not want to get stuck in the quagmire of another baptismal salvation discussion.

So basically you believe that the Sacrament of Baptism carries no particular grace with it?.

If that's so, then why you think Jesus emphasizes Baptism and gives to it the same importance as to preaching the Gospel (Mt. 28, 19)?.

Hi all!.

As you may know, the majority of protestants keep at least one Sacrament: Baptism.

Sacraments (Baptism included) provide an objective grace that does not depend on the individual (if it would, it'd be subjective) so Baptism is indeed being "born again".

But in protestantism, this "born again" thing teaches that you can divide among baptized ppl, those who are "born again" and those who are not; it depends on who you ask what is being "born again" but most seem to think that it's an intellectual level of realization of one's religion (that implies to talk more about your faith and so on).

This kind of thought is inconsistent with the reality of Baptism itself, because if you believe in the objectivity of grace, then you can't at the same time believe in a doctrine that preaches subjectivity of grace (hence, separating Baptism from "born againess").

So, what you believe is being "born again"???

If a person is baptized and then doing the "born again" thing......... has that person being born again 3 times??? or just 2????? (meaning the first time you were born with the original sin, then being born again through the grace of Baptism and then through the experience mentioned above).

Is the content of the born again doctrine biblical, or it's just a biblical name with an unbiblical content?.

If you have been baptized but not have the "born again" social distinction...... does it really matter?.

And last but not least, what's the value of this born again "emotional Baptism" when compared to the true Baptism?.

See you later!.

I too, was raised SDA before my dad put us in catholic school.  It is very confusing to say the least.  One teaches to live by the laws of the old testament but to forget the animal sacrifices because Jesus was the last sacrifice and the other teaches to live in the new testament and the old testament is more like a history lesson.    Now that I am an adult, I read the bible and decide for myself what to believe in (with God's guidance of course). 

I still believe that Saturday is the Sabbath of the old testament but worship God and keep everyday holy.

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Dear Gianour:

I believe Sabbath in the OT is Saturday as well.................. but that changes nothing.

Our Lord resurrected on Sunday and He presided over the very first Eucharist after His Resurrection (and after it was instituted) on Sunday (Lk 24, 13; 30) and that's why we christians worship on Sunday.

Besides, Adventism makes no sense because it relies on the mosaic Law but doesn't accept it as the whole 613 commandments; they only accept the "10 commandments" so they say they live by the Law but that's not true because they just ignore the truth on purpose.

Mobile21

I don't mean to get off the subject

Could you tell me why you have a picture of a nun in your posts,

I guess my post wasn't worth the time?

It's worth the time but I'm really tired right now so lemme sum it up:

1) I do not believe in Mary having other children because the Scripture only mentions one "Son of Mary" and that's Jesus. The other ones (Jesus' cousins) are sons of another Mary, not the same person. I will never believe in Jesus' "half-brothers" until someone shows me a biblical verse where it says: "Lisa, the daughter of Mary the Mother of Jesus" or "Bart, the son of Mary the Mother of Jesus". I'm sure that's not too much to ask because that's how the Holy Scriptures identify someone's son or daughter.

2) There have been 4 Immaculate Persons in history: Adam, Eve, Jesus and Mary.

3) There are 4 Persons currently alive in body and soul: Enoch, Elijah, Mary and Jesus and the 4 of them appear in Revelations precisely because of that same characteristic of having a body (Enoch & Elijah are the two witnesses).

The whole truth about homosexuality:

http://www.narth.com

Genesis 1:3

Biblically what we can't establish is:

* That she was perfect

But we can.

Just look at how God declares He'll create Mary sinless in Gen 3, 15.

If that doesn't do the trick, I dunno what will.

Genesis 3:15

And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

How is Genesis 3:15 declaring God will create Mary sinless?

Luke 1:46-47

"I will put enmity between you and the woman"

God happens to mention that because with original sin there's really no more enmity between Satan and humans, He has to artificially put it there (the enmity) for Mary, that is to create Her immaculate like Adam and Eve were.

Protestants tend to ignore the special intervention God talks about in Gen 3, 15 and for them, in reality that intervention equals to nothing at all (something that is absurd obviously, because you just cannot disregard God's Word).

And Mary said: "My soul exalts the Lord,

And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

Why would Mary need a Saviour if she was sinless?

A very frequent question.

It doesn't matter if you are an Immaculate human being like Adam and Eve were, you *still need* the Savior because He is the one to restore the relationship between mankind and The Lord, and only the Savior was the one that could open Heaven again for mankind (remember that before Jesus, all the good ppl including Abraham were stuck at the place called "Sheol", and they could only inherit the Kingdom after Jesus).

I'm aware that satanists believe that Hell is a place not of punishment but of pleasure.

Regardless of what I believe of satanists, it's obvious you have to be very ignorant to believe in the afterlife and to believe at the same time in "two or more places of reward" for "two or more kinds of ppl".

Biblically what we can't establish is:

* That she was perfect

But we can.

Just look at how God declares He'll create Mary sinless in Gen 3, 15.

If that doesn't do the trick, I dunno what will.

* The she ascended into heaven

We can.

Romans establishes a direct link between sin and death, so if She is sinless, she never died.

And of course, then there's Mary including her body in Rev 12, 1. Those who appear in Revelations all have bodies like Elijah, Enoch and of course Jesus. We find Mary there and She has a body so............

* The perpetual virginity

We absolutely can.

Can you name other son or daughter of Mary besides Jesus?.

Believe me....... I've asked that question to protestants over the years and none have find a single son or daughter of Mary other than Jesus (of course, those who don't know the Bible very well believe that His cousins were "His brothers" and they tend to confuse the other Mary with Mary the Mother of Jesus).

Thus the debate digresses to sola scriptura vs. tradition.

I don't think so because it belongs to Tradition things like "where Mary saw the Angel".

Mary being sinless and being alive in body and soul belongs to Scripture, not Tradition.

Ah, but a lot of people do believe she is.

Why don't you name names??????.

We catholics have been around this board for A LONG TIME so I guess that by now you can say which one of us believes in such thing.

Is it me or nemuni or nicholas???.

And if you can't find one catholic, then............. why would you believe in something that is just not there? that isn't real?.

And many people are expecting JP2 to make it official at some point, because he is the most ardent Marian devotee that the world has ever seen.

It's true the Pope is very devout and it's great that he happens to be one of the finest christians in history.

Who knew!

A devout of Mary and a great christian........ all at the same time!.

Here are hundreds of Quotes from some of the RCC greatest and most esteemed teachers concerning their false Mary.

From the Apostolic Digest

CHAPTER ONE

DEVOTION TO OUR LADY

IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION

http://www.catholictradition.org/mary-necessary1.htm

Below are just a few, go to the link for more if you can stomach it.

"Holy Scripture was written for Mary, about Mary, and on account of Mary."

St. Bernard

"O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can come only through thy hands, our salvation depends on thee."

St. Bernardine of Siena

"Mary is the whole hope of our salvation."

St. Thomas Aquinas

"The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: that we obtain everything through Mary."

Ven. Pope Pius IX

"Mary desired, sought, and obtained the salvation of everyone; nay, she even effected the salvation of everyone!"

St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori

The link doesn't work.

Anyway, all the "Mary debates" have proved protestants don't believe in the biblical Mary and they just keep these fictitious conflicts alive in order to justify their separations.

It turns out they now want to bury the truth with tons of text.....

This is the second time God has pointed this out to me.  The first time I was telling a group of children a bible story. I'd forgotten so much of the story.  Things that should have been said, but I tried to tell the story any way because the children wanted to hear it.  That night as I prayed this came into my heart.  If your going to tell children about God and his people make sure that you know what your talking about. 

Last night I was in my mothers home.  My two brothers, my uncle and myself.  They were talking about sports when my uncle turned the conversation to God.  He made this comment that first surprised me and then made me really look at him.  He told my older brother that all you have to do is be a good person and you'll go to heaven.  That made me upset because my brother thinks that this is heaven.  You make your life what you want it to be then you die. 

I looked at him and then my brother who seemed to be eating what he was saying up as if it was a life line.  My uncle told him that all you have to do is love your neighbors and others and you'll get into heaven.  I told him that that wasn't right.  That you have to accept Jesus Christ as your savior to be saved.  His response was if you can love others then Jesus is already in your heart which made absolutely no sense to me.  I told him that that was like saying you can be saved by works and he said not works love.  My brother sat there with a big smile on his face saying yeah....yeah... that's what I think to.  I wanted to say to my uncle how dare you tell my brother such lies.... when you yourself have already accepted Jesus Christ into your life?  How dare you reassure him that he's saved by just caring for others as if words can get him into heaven?  How dare you lead him down a wrong path?  How dare you?  We were interrupted by the pizza-man, but this will continue.  Today I plan on printing out some scripture to show my brother that he has to accept Jesus to get to heaven.  This is the second time that God's allowed me to experience how important it is to know scripture before you tell others about Him.  This has made me want to learn more about Him so that if another moment like this come up I will be prepared to share the truth.

God Bless You

Jacqueline

The problem I see in that conversation is the doctrine of calvinism.

Calvinism is a doctrine that is not true so you don't have to worry about it.

You *can't* be saved while on Earth (before God judges you and declares you are saved), and you don't have to say the "sacramental formula" of "Jesus is my Lord and Savior" because it goes against Mt 7, 21 and it's an unbiblical formula.

it feels like my time on earth is running out and with the rise in violent crime i could be killed on the street anyday. is it normal for me to contemplate my death so often and so much?

i know when i die im going somewhere better, my faith has grown so much this year its unbelivable.

also ive had dreams about family members dying, is this a preminition or just somethin that keeps coming into my dreams?

does god still work in the lives of the ones i pray for who dont believe in him?

are we living in the end times, and how much worse does this world have to get before jesus comes back?

Dear Reaperman:

I think you need to be faithful to the true doctrine, always accept God's Will acting in your life and leave the end of times biz to God.

You don't actually have to worry for all that because that's not why God created you. He created you for the truth and love.

That view point was the strong opinion of the Reformers, as we might expect. It was also the view of Tertullian, Jerome, Augustine,

So now St. Agustine is a protestant??????.

That's outrageous!.

St. Augustine would've never said those terrible lies about the Church (Christ's bride).

That McThing is so true.

There are ppl who say "I'm saved" and they truly believe they can choose salvation with a perfect single expression of free will like the angels do.

We cannot do that because we humans need a constant option for salvation and that's an option of a lifetime.

The catholic church didn't exist before 325

They broke off from the original church. In other words...they started the rebellion against the true church.

So the true Church was defeated right????

Nope, not true.

The only true Church founded by Jesus Christ that will never be defeated (because the Bible says so) is the Catholic Church.

Christ has only one bride, not 33,000 brides (all the protestant churches).

God bless.

I would rather be dumb and enter the Kingdom of Heaven than to be brilliant and yet denied access because I was a homosexual,adulterer,thief,extortioner etc

Shakespeare was not gay.

There's a movement (conspiracy?) of gays that tries to depict every great person of history as "gay". They say that of DaVinci and of Alexander the Great and so on and so forth.

The same lies always come from the same authors (who happen to be gay).