Resurrection Priest

Clearly, I have views that differ from most of the posters in this thread. I do not believe that one's view concerning the dead (soul sleep vs immediate to heaven/hell) is salvational. It's not a requirement for salvation. I did not see an answer to my original question concerning WHY a resurrection, if the dead are already either in Heaven or in Hell. (At least not an answer I remember. Sorry if I missed one.) Dialoging in this thread did help me to clarify my thoughts on a couple things. I thank you for your time, and for posting with me.

The commands of God concerning spirits, (of the dead) hold just as true today. The living ARE FORBIDDEN from speaking with spirits of the dead. How could one tell if he is really communicating with his dead uncle, or father, or mom? Satan and his demons can easily talk as they talked. They can even appear, so as to be seen. Satan sent "a lying spirit" to deceive back in the Old Testament. He can do the same today. That is WHY the LORD forbade communication with "the dead." If any dead relative or dead friend speaks to you, or appears to you, try commanding all enemies of the God the Father and of Christ His Son to leave immediately - in the name of Jesus Christ. Pray to the Father in Jesus name, asking that no enemy spirit be allowed to speak to you, or to appear to you.

Jesus said to John the Revelator, "Behold I come quickly." That was close to 2000 years ago. Quickly by Heaven's time frame, is not quickly by an individual human's time frame. While it is true (I believe) that Jesus will "come quickly" for each one of us - immediately after we die. I believe the very next moment we will be awake from death, and watching Him coming on the clouds of Heaven. I don't think we will be conscious of the time that has passed, between our death and His appearing. In that sense, He WILL come quickly.

I was asking for examples from the Scriptures.

DEAD PERSON CONVERSING WITH THE LIVING?? 1. Story of the rich man and Lazarus was a parable. Not literal. 2. King Saul and the Witch - Saul didn't even see Samuel. The witch described him, and quoted him (or channeled him). The apparition was most likely Satan. 3. Jesus talking with Moses and Elijah, who appeared with Him. They were ALIVE. It was against the LORD's command to talk with "the dead." If Elijah and Moses were not ALIVE, then Jesus broke God's Law. He could not then, have been the perfect Sacrifice. 4. Many Saints - were raised by Christ, immediately after He was raised by His Father (Matthew 27:51-52). They were raised with bodies. They went into the City of Jerusalem and appeared to many. Again - IF these people were dead, then the people of Jerusalem who interacted with them, violated God's Law. I don't believe God would set His people up to break the Law. Those risen saints were ALIVE when they went into the City. I believe they were ALIVE when they ascended with Christ into Heaven. I believe those risen saints are now serving as the 24 Elders before the Father's throne. 5. Christ Himself was DEAD. Then He was raised from death. Thomas thought he was seeing "a spirit." Christ had to assure him, "A spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have" (Luke 24:39). 6. The only other one I can think of - that is sited as an example of "the dead" interacting somehow with living persons, or other dead persons - is this one. 1 Peter 3:18-20 “For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.” Folks say that Christ - while He was dead, with body laying in the tomb - went and preached to "spirits in prison." Some say the "spirits" are those of the dead. Some say they are demons, as if Christ was gloating to them about His victorious death without sin. My view, is that Peter is making the point that the same Spirit did both - 1. raise Christ, and 2. preach through Christ, back in Noah’s day. Peter wrote, “the spirit of Christ who was in them” spoke through the Old Testament prophets (1Peter 1:11). Christ preached through Noah, pleading with the people, begging them to get on board the ark. The "spirit" that was IN Christ was that of His Father. Jesus said, "The Father who dwells IN ME does the works" (John 14:10). It has been the same since the beginning. The Father has always dwelt IN His Son. Jesus said (to His Father) "You Father are in me, and I in you" (John 17:21). The word “Hell” is NOT in the passage. Peter called the people of Noah’s day “spirits in prison,” because their minds and hearts were “in bondage” to sin and Satan. (Compare Ps. 142:7; Isa. 42:6,7; Isa. 61:1; Lk 4:18.) If we are “set free” by the truth of Christ risen, then were we not once "prisoners" - slaves to sin and Satan? (See Jn 8:32, Jn 8:36, Rom 6:8, Rom 6:22, Rom 8:2, Gal 5:1.) Satan is the ruler of this world, therefore all who are without Christ, are in bondage to Satan. Can you site other examples of DEAD PEOPLE talking with the living?

Saul and the Witch and (supposedly) Samuel 1 Samuel Chapter 28. First: God had commanded, “Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them to be defiled by them” (Lev. 19:31). “A man or a woman who is a medium, or who has familiar spirits, shall surely be put to death” (Deut. 18:9-12). “There shall not be found among you one who conjures up spells or a medium, or a spiritist or one who calls up the dead” (1 Sam. 28:7). A man or a woman who claimed to communicate with the dead, was to be stoned to death (Leviticus 20:27). The above verses tell us how very serious a thing it is - to made contact with the dead. God absolutely forbade this practice. Why? Because the one who thinks that he has made contact with a dead person, is actually communicating with Satan or with one of his evil angels. The Harry Potter series was very popular. Godly parents must understand that these stories of spells and wizards are preparing a generation for deception. Second: God had departed from Saul and would not communicate with him through any living prophet, or even via the High Priest of the Tabernacle. Why would He then allow a “visitation” by Samuel, facilitated by a witch? (1 Sam. 28:6,15). Third: Samuel was supposedly “brought up”- “out of the earth” during the seance, and was described by the witch as an “old man.” Saul didn't even see Samuel. Can any witch cause a saint of God to appear at her bidding? And is this how the saints look - old? Fourth: God punished Saul with death, for his action in “asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it” (1 Chr. 10:13,14). The “familiar spirit”and apparition, was most likely Satan - who will certainly use deceptions of this sort in the last days!

Would you list those examples in the Scriptures, of the dead being seen by and conversing with the living? I'm not sure that "time" - as we know it - is "irrelevant" in the Heavenly realm. I do believe it is experienced differently. Peter said, "with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." (2Pe 3:8 NKJ) In the next passage, the 24 Elders (in Heaven) say [to the LORD] that "the time has come" (1) to judge the dead and (2) to reward Your servants and (3) to destroy those who destroy the earth. All these things happen at the Glorious Return. (1) The wicked dead are raised to be judged and condemned. (2) The righteous dead are raised to their reward (eternal life) (3) The earth is consumed in fire, which destroys those who destroy the earth. This is when the 7th [last] Trumpet sounds (v.17). Revelation 11:18 The nations were enraged, but your wrath has come, and the time has come for the dead to be judged, and the time has come to give to your servants, the prophets, their reward, as well as to the saints and to those who revere your name, both small and great, and the time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth." (Rev 11:18 NET) But WHY has "the time" come? I believe it is because Christ has been given the dominion. He is "given" the dominion when it is taken from Satan (and his Beast/Little Horn), BY the "court" of Heaven. That event is described in the prophecy to Daniel (7:9-14, 22, 26-27). Until that "court" sits, the events of Revelation 11:15-18 can't happen. It is a timed event. It happens at a point in time. Whether that is earth time, or Heavens time, - are the two not tied together?

Let me address the view (hope I get it right) that Hebrews (Abraham and descendants) go to a different place at death, than those not descended from Abraham. I won't quote the long post on that subject. Genesis 49:29 [Jacob speaking] “I am to be gathered to my people: bury me with my fathers in the cave . . .” 2 Kings 22:20 [Spoken by the LORD, through the Prophetess Huldah, to King Josiah] “. . . I will gather you to your fathers, and you shall be gathered to your grave in peace;” The expression “gathered to your fathers” made reference to ancient Middle Eastern burial practice. The body was laid in a family burial cave. After the flesh was consumed away, the bones were “gathered” and placed together with the bones of “the fathers” in the same tomb. In the time of Jesus, bones were “gathered” in special boxes called “ossuaries,” carved from sandstone. All the boxes were kept in the same family tomb. The burial practice of "gathering" together in death, came into the language. When someone said that he was about to be "gathered," he was saying that he was about to die.

EXCEPTIONS Enoch and Elijah were granted exceptions to the “die once,” then judgment rule (Heb. 11:5, 2Ki. 2:11). They were taken to Heaven without dying first, just as those who are still alive to see Christ come will not have to die first, before they are “caught up” to the clouds to meet Him in the air (1Thes. 4:17). We know that all those who hear Christ's word and believe in the Father who sent Him, have everlasting life. They will “not come into judgment” either (John 5:24). They are granted an exception through Christ, to the appointed "die once, then judgment." There are many examples of exceptions in the Scriptures. Caleb, Joshua and Eleazar the High Priest, did not die in the wilderness with the rest of the 20 and over. Aaron was forgiven, though he actually created the golden calf idol. Moses pleaded for him, and the LORD forgave Him.

Good bye Josheb. I can't participate in a "discussion" when someone is scolding me and talking down to me every other post.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, The argument in context is that once was enough, for a human life, and for Christ - to die once. No reincarnation. No repeating the ONE True Sacrifice for all time. The usual is that human beings die (physically) only once. There are exceptions noted in the Bible: Lazarus, Eutychus (Acts 20) the young girl of Mark 5:41, and others. They were not judged when they were raised to continue their physical lives. Neither were they transformed into the "spiritual body." And some will still be living - all the way to the Glorious Return. They won't have to die first, before being "caught up" to be with the LORD. (1Thess 4:14-16) So why not Elijah also.

Bible doesn't say that Elijah died. Any more than the saints who are still living when Christ returns in glory will have to "die" before their bodies are "changed in a moment" to the new "spiritual body" (without flesh and blood).

Jesus no longer had a body of "flesh and blood." Yet He was alive. He was alive in His "spiritual body."

I think you addressed the above question to me. Not sure where I said there is a "chasm separating this world from the spiritual realm." We cannot see beings in that dimension, from our dimension. We cannot hear (in the normal sense) - beings from that dimension "speak." Not talking about "dead" persons. Talking about angels (evil and good) who are alive in that dimension. God commanded Israel that they were NOT to attempt to communicate with "the dead." I don't think that was because such communication was possible. I think that was because Satan's evil ones often "appear," pretending to be the deceased. The story of King Saul and the witch and the spirit of Samuel being a prime example.

Why would Paul write that "death reigned from Adam to Moses?" Moses was a long time before Paul. Why not write death has reigned since Adam, IF death still had a total reign. He said, "from Adam to Moses" because something changed with Moses. I believe Moses was the first person to be raised/resurrected from the dead. He was then "taken" to live in the Heavenly realm. He was ALIVE when he conversed with Christ.

No. Moses and Elijah would have had the "spiritual body." No blood. I believe they were TYPES. Moses for those who will be resurrected. Elijah for those who will be "taken up" without dying first. The scene represented the kingdom of Christ.

??? What "rule"? Not sure what you're asking.

It's used to mean taken to Heaven. Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God." (NKJ) Elijah was "taken" up into Heaven. He did not die first. 2Kings Cpt 2 Guess you could substitute "raptured".

If the LORD can save my mind, without my body, why can't HE save my mind without me being conscious - save it in a sleep state?

The context of Rev 20:5 is the Glorious Return. So - if "the rest of the dead" do not live again, until another 1000 years go by, where will they spend that time? I say they will spend that time sleeping - in death. I believe "the rest" are NOT those "in Christ" and are NOT the outright wicked (who are raised, judged, and into the Lake of Fire AT the Glorious Return). I believe "the rest" will be those who lived and died in ignorance (not willful ignorance) of God, - and - those who died as children. They could not CHOOSE. One must hear before one can choose. One must have information and the mental/physical maturity of age, to process that information, BEFORE one can choose. The only time frame that I see, when the LORD could resurrect these people, educate them and then allow them to choose - is the 8th millennium. I do not believe those raised "second" (at the 8th millennium) are all of the wicked. I do not believe that all of them will be lost. I believe that many will come to serve Christ.

The information from a computer can be saved. Even if the computer itself is broken, crushed, stomped on, and burned up - still - the information was retrieved before the computer was destroyed. Why can't the LORD do that for us? Save our minds - all the information - to upload later into new brains/bodies, for resurrection. I don't see the need for conscious "souls" to go anywhere. Why send wicked people to Hell where they are tormented, then later bring them back to judge them, then thrown them back into Hell? Why not just let them "sleep" til the resurrection, then wake then up for judgment, then destroy them permanently? Seems a lot cleaner and more merciful - to them and to those who loved them, who were saved in Christ.

Do you believe that only the martyrs will be resurrected at the Glorious Return of Christ? Are they the only ones who will become "priests of God and of Christ" - in your view? My view follows: Rev. 11:15-19 describes what happens in heaven at the 7th (last) Trumpet. Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned. 18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth." This looks like ALL those (from those still dead) who fear the LORD, receive their reward at this time. The reward/gift is eternal life. 2 Timothy 4:8 [Paul speaking] "Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day-- and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing." (NIV) Looks like everyone (raised or translated) is awarded the crown of righteousness on the same day. Daniel 12:1-3 “There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people – everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.” NIV John 14:3 “I will come again and receive you unto myself.” 2 Thessalonians 2:1 We are “gathered together to Him” at “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (1Th 4:16 NKJ) Sounds like ALL those who are "in Christ" will be raised when He comes again - in glory. I'm all for the martyrs receiving thrones and reward. I just believe that all the dead "in Christ" will be raised at His Glorious Return. IMO

Elijah was translated without seeing death. Moses died and was then resurrected. (Else why the argument over the corpse.) Paul says "death reigned from Adam to Moses." Moses was the first person resurrected. Anyway. . . Elijah and Moses were NOT DEAD when they talked with Christ on the Mount, and 3 disciples witnessed that. It was against God's Law to converse with "the dead." Christ could not violate Torah. That was sin.

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (KJV) Believing non-Hebrews are "grafted in" to the Olive Tree (Israel -Jer. 11:16) with the holy Root (the Son of God). Unbelievers are "broken off" from that Tree, regardless of their Hebrew DNA. I do NOT share your view that the righteous go consciously to a different place (the bosom of Abraham) during the time between death and resurrection. Those in Christ are written in the Book of Life. Thank you for sharing your view.

Yes. Agreed. I believe the spirit of God inspired the thief to "see" that Jesus was indeed the Son of God. He believed because the Father drew him to Christ. In that sense, the thief WAS re-generated. He was not what he would one day become - in the kingdom, but he had begun the process. That is really all that we do here in this life. We begin the process. The millennium will be a thousand years of education and healing for all of the saved. I do not personally believe the LORD instantly or fully changes a person at the first moment that they believe. I don't believe He will do that when we are raised to eternal life. I believe it is a process of learning and healing. If He was going to manipulate the mind like that, then He could have done it in the first place, with Adam and Eve, and skipped all this painful mess. That's just me.