Faithwilldo

You are either purposely misrepresenting what I have been saying or you are not reading what I post. You said: A specific group of people = REAL PEOPLE. Even in your wrongful conclusion, the group of people that have existed since Paul, they are not saved. Thus not all people are saved. The "beast" represents carnal mankind. The head that has the deadly wound specifically represents the fallen away Christians. The only people who are no longer represented by the beast are the Elect. They were destroyed (removed from the beast) and given a new birth as a child of God. The "beast" is cast into the Lake of Fire to be judged and purified. In other words, the beast (mankind) will be spiritually destroyed and given a new birth. This is the same pathway that the Elect followed. Spiritual death of our carnal nature (Old Man) is necessary for our new birth. Our "Old Man" is guilty of sin and will receive the penalty of sin (death). But from that death, God causes us to be "born again". It is all His work which you deny with your doctrine of Free Will. Why do you believe that no one can be saved after they physically die? There are no scriptures that support this belief. If we are not chosen to be saved now, we will go to "judgment" and be saved then. With God, all things are possible. You continue to believe that God's judgment is somehow like man's judgment which does not purify and forgive. God is not like mankind. You said: In God's words there can't be any contradiction. You are right. However, because of our carnal minds, the contradictions will only end AFTER Christ gives us the "mind of Christ" and heals our spiritual blindness so that we can understand scripture. Spiritual eyes and ears are only given to us at the second coming of Christ (the latter rain). Until that time, a believer is spiritually blind and is lead by the hand by spiritually blind leaders. Paul's conversion "typed" this truth for us and it is shown to us again in these verses: Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand? Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly. Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man. In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. These actions by Christ spiritually represent the time when an unbeliever is "called" out from the world and into the Church. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down and they symbolize the carnal aspect of the blind man’s healing. After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a symbol for man's truth that comes from the earth (our carnal nature). It is not Christ's truth which only comes from heaven. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. It is the time of the "early rain" or Paul's Damascus road experience. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind: 2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Baptism of the Holy Spirit when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a Chosen believer. He was first Called Out from the world and then he was Chosen to be “born again” as a First Fruit of Christ’s Harvest. Your beliefs are contradicted by many verses which I have previously posted. You have not produced any verses that contradict what I know to be as truth. You have confused God's judgment with something so horrible that it is difficult to even think about for a few moments. Even the serial killers of this world can only harm a person for a short period of time. But the Doctrine of Hell says that there is no end for the torment of the lost. Why would Christ who is merciful, loving and kind do such a thing to His creation? He loves us more than we can love our own children. His love is perfect and He always does what's in our best interest. He is our Savior and is not a mass torturer. With that doctrine, Christ is made out to be the greatest evil the world has ever known. And you say that God is not evil or even creates evil but you support this horrible, evil doctrine. Can you see the contradiction here with your beliefs? You said: According to your beliefs, it doesn't matter what I belief. I may get punishment for a "wrongful" belief but end up in heaven anyway. According to your beliefs, you are just preventing people to get severe punishment, but in the end all end up in heaven anyway. There is no urgency to belief or to share the gospel. Because any temporary punishment is truly nothing compared to afterwards living with god in eternity. No one will "end up in heaven anyway". The pathway that leads to Christ is the "only" way to be saved. It is ONLY by the work of Christ. Until He does His work within us, we will remain unsaved and carnally minded. Mankind does not have any ability to help Christ save us (change us from within). Our confession of faith only happens as a result of Christ's work within us. His work is between our ears so to speak. When He does His work within us, we will accept Him as Lord and He will lead us down the pathway to salvation. Every step we take is by the direction of Christ. We contribute nothing so that no man can boast. The Doctrine of Free Will is a direct contradiction to the way Christ does His work. The Doctrine of Free Will is the primary cause of a believer falling away back to "works". Once this happens within us, we cannot be renewed by repentance. Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Because we ALL fall away after first accepting Christ, it is necessary for Christ to come to us a second time. It is only then that Christ heals our spiritual blindness so that we can know His truth. That is the "only" pathway that saves us. When a believer takes credit for their decision to accept Christ, they are stealing from Christ's work. But this too is caused by God. It is all part of the pathway that leads to destruction of our Old Man and then on to salvation. Everyone one must fall away and wait on the Lord to come a second time: Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. You said: But according to God's words, christians are to share the gospel of salvation. So that by hearing His words, one can believe and be saved through faith alone in Jesus Christ. So that one won't be lost forever. There is only one way, the choice is to be made within our lives on earth. By sin, we have already made the choice for hell. And only through faith in Jesus Christ we can turn back to God and be seen as righteous in His eyes. From birth, we have no ability to have faith. Faith is a gift from God. Until He comes to each of us and gives us "gifts", we will never repent and accept Him. Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. If Christ wanted to save everyone in this present age, He could easily do it. But His plan is to ONLY save the Elect now. They are the "first fruits" of His harvest. Why do you believe that Christ will only save the "early and best portion" of His harvest of mankind? He is the good farmer and He will bring in the full harvest of mankind at the end of the harvest season (final age). There are no scriptures that say our salvation can only occur in this life time. Why do you think that Christ is going to resurrect everyone in the future? After all, the penalty of sin is death and the lost will already be dead. Why resurrect them? Why do you believe that the punishment of sin is not actually death but life in the fires of hell? That belief does not come from scripture. Joe

Absolutely not. The Lake of Fire is only a spiritual symbol and is not like anything that is commonly taught. Hell according to scripture is a state of death and can be translated as the "unseen place". The Lake of Fire is a symbol for God's righteous judgment. If you read Revelation chapter 21, it will show that those who were cast into God's judgment are actually on the New Earth and exist outside the New Jerusalem. Of course, New Jerusalem and the New Earth are also symbols. The New Jerusalem is the Kingdom of Heaven which represents the Christ and His First Fruits of His harvest. The details of the building are also symbols. But as you may be able to see, the lost are not in a place of literal fire and brimstone. Christ and the Elect (New Jerusalem) descend down from heaven and are placed into the midst of the lost for these reasons: Eph 2:7 that he might display in the coming ages the surpassing riches of his grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus. The Elect are displayed to the lost who are being judged (Lake of Fire) to show "the surpassing riches of His grace". Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. This verse is referring to the Old Testament saints (including John the Baptist and the thief on the cross) who were justified by faith but were not sanctified by the truth. Because of this lack of knowledge, they have not been made perfect yet and are not in the Kingdom of Heaven. However, the Elect will see to it that they receive the knowledge of the truth and are made perfect. This happens by God's judgment (Lake of Fire). Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Ruling and reigning with Christ is for the purpose of judging and saving the lost. That is what the symbol of a "thousand years" represents. The Elect lived through their "thousand years" after they were saved when Christ poured out the latter rain of His Spirit on them. This happened to them in this present age. Once the Elect reach full spiritual maturity, they will produce the spiritual fruit God requires of them. This must likewise happen to the lost who are in the "Lake of Fire". God's judgment (Lake of Fire) teaches mankind God's righteousness and purifies away our spiritual impurities. No one can produce spiritual fruit and be saved unless they are judged. Once those who are experiencing God's judgment have been purified, this call will go out to them by God and the Elect: Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. This is "typed" for us by the Feast of Tabernacles. That is the feast that celebrates the end of the harvest season. It is the time that God will bring in the full harvest of mankind. Christ also typed this for us in this verse: John 7:37-38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. This call goes out to the lost in the "Lake of Fire" at the end of the final age. There is no Hell or Purgatory as is commonly taught. Joe

You said: I think I have already shared the verses which states that not everyone is saved. You have not posted any verses that say Christ will not save everyone because there are no such verses. Your quoted verses do not say Christ is going to fail to save all mankind as you believe. Here is my response to each of them: 1). Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. The beast and the false prophet are "symbols" just like the entire book of Revelation contains. They are not real people but represent a specific group of people that have existed since the time of Paul. Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: The book of Revelation communicates its message by using physical symbols that represent spiritual truths. To understand these symbols, one must look elsewhere in scripture for those symbols. 1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Also, the Greek word "aion" in that verse is mistranslated. It does not mean "for ever and ever". It means "age". Here is the proper translation of that verse: Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for the age of ages (the final age). By the end of the final age, this verse will be testified to be true: 1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 2). Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. The Lake of Fire is another symbol with a spiritual meaning. The Lake of Fire means God's righteousness judgment. It is not a literal place nor does it have literal fire. Here is what God's fire is and does: 1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Mankind is saved by God's "fire", not tortured for eternity. The loss they receive is not being saved first along with the First Fruits and not helping Christ bring in the full harvest of mankind (ruling and reigning with Christ). Once Christ's "rule and reign" comes to an end in the final age, God is "all in all" because everyone is saved and is in the Kingdom of Heaven. 1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Your beliefs say that God is NOT "all in all" because He is tormenting in literal fire most of mankind. That is not the God of scripture who never fails at anything. 1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails; 3). Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ These people are fallen away Christians who remain "lawless". This means that they are still under law and not under grace. Since they are under law, they must experience the same "destruction" of their carnal nature that the Elect experienced and the law demands. For their benefit, they are sent off to be judged in the Lake of Fire. There they will suffer loss but they will be saved by "fire". Judgment is NOT "for ever and ever" but lasts for only an age of time. The Elect are judged in this present age and like those in the Lake of Fire, their judgment comes to an end when the fire has burned away their spiritual impurities. 4). Matthew 13:41-43 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. This verse only repeats that Christ will judge the lost in the "Lake of Fire". It is an not eternal judgment nor is it in literal fire. Christ's judgment is: Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. Jer 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory. Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these [things] I delight, saith the LORD. Amos 5:24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things. God's judgment fills the earth with God's "goodness" and is not like man's judgment. God's judgment will "bless" the nations and make them righteous. It burns away our spiritual impurities. 5). Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. As I have stated, we all must be judged. Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. Judgment starts with the chosen Elect of this age: 1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? At the time when the Elect are judged, they are not any better than the lost. They are just as carnal and full of self-righteousness. From their judgment, these spiritual impurities are burned away. This verse you quoted (like the others) is only speaking of judgment. You are inferring that their judgment is eternal which it is not. Judgment is for the good and loving purpose of purifying them to make them worthy of salvation. Once the judgment has achieved that goal, then their judgment ends (just like it did for each of the Elect). At that time, this calls goes out to them: Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Why would the Spirit and the Bride (the Elect) say to come and drink of the water of life if they will never be saved or allowed to enter the Kingdom of Heaven as you believe? This call by God goes out when it is time for them (those who have just been judged) to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. God will then be "all in all". 5). Matthew 25:45-46 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Like Rev 20:10, The Greek word "aion" is mistranslated. However, here in this verse, the adjective form (aionios) of "aion" is used. It means for a time period of an age and should be translated as "age-enduring": Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during. The Elect who have already had the "ends of the ages" come upon them, will have life in the Kingdom of Heaven during this final age. In contrast to them are the lost who will not have life in the final age but will finally and mercifully be judged. 1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. Why does God's Word say that the Elect have had the "ends of the ages" come upon them? The answer is because salvation for mankind (everyone but the First Fruits, the early and best portion of God's harvest) comes at the end of the final age (the end of the harvest season). Only then will God be "all in all" and this verse will be proven to be true: Act 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; The "last days" (or as you say "end times") is referring to the time when a person is judged and purified. At that time (the time of the Day of the Lord) they will receive the Holy Spirit and be saved. The Elect's "last days" happen now but the lost's "last days" do not occur until the end of the final age. Your belief says that God will not pour out His Spirit on "all flesh". Who is right, you or God's word? The verses you quoted do not address whether Christ will save all mankind. They are mostly speaking about judgment which you do not seem to understand. Here are the verses you should have quoted that specifically teach on who will be saved: Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the age of the ages. Who could this leave out? Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Why do you believe this verse says until the restitution of "some" things"? 1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Why do you believe this verse says only "some" men will be saved? Rom 5:18-19 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous. Why do you believe that by the obedience of the One, only "some of the many" will be constituted righteous? Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Why do you believe that "not" every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord? Is it because you believe they will be cursing Christ while they are being tormented in the fires of "hell" for no loving or redeeming purpose? 2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Why do you believe that Christ will be denied His will to not have anyone perish (death: the true penalty of sin), especially in light of this verse I quoted below? Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? As for your other comments in your last post, I will not respond to them because your arguments do not make sense nor do they change the clear meaning of the verses. Joe

How can you say that God did not create evil when scripture plainly says that He creates evil and that He has given mankind an experience of evil? How would scripture have to say it for you to believe it??? Also, God made man "subject to vanity" without asking our permission to do so. Did God do it by mistake? Surely He knew we would be sinning machines or did this catch Him by surprise, too? Also, you keep saying that not everyone is saved. Christ is not trying to save everyone at this time. He is ONLY saving the Elect whom He will use in the final age to help bring in the full harvest of mankind. You are only seeing what Christ is doing now. Matt 7:22-23 that you mentioned only shows fallen away believers being rejected by Christ. But His rejection is not final. Why do you think it is? Lam 3:22 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; Christ's work of saving mankind does not end until the last person is saved and then God will be "all in all". 1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. God can't be "all in all" if most of mankind is still lost. And scripture says that the Jews will be last to be saved: Matt 19:30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first. Mat 20:8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. So when does the "fullness of the Gentiles" occur? When do the Jews receive salvation? It certainly cannot happen in this present age. 2000 years has already gone by and the "chosen" Gentiles are still being saved plus most Jews still reject Christ. Here is what Christ said to one of the Pharisees who crucified Him: Matt 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do. With Christ, our salvation is certain since it is 100% His work, only the timing of it is varied. So when does Christ save this Pharisee that He spoke to? His salvation has to come after the "fullness of the Gentiles come in" and that has not happened yet. This Pharisee died at the time of Christ, so when is he going to be saved? Please show me your answer with scripture. Joe

You said: God also created mankind, not willing that mankind would sin. Does that mean that nobody would sin? God was not only willing that mankind would sin, He caused it to happen. Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it. Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Adam and Eve were made in such a way (subject to vanity) they could not have done anything but sin just like we all do. Eve even displayed the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life BEFORE she sinned. You said: By saying everybody will be saved by God, by saying there is no punishment in hell , you are calling Jesus Christ a liar. Don't be blinded by your own desires. Be fair and use scripture to understand God's will, not using scripture to support your personal desires and personal understanding. Repent and trust in Jesus Christ alone. The Elect are the only ones who are going to be saved in this present age. They are the First Fruits of God's harvest of mankind. The main harvest of mankind occurs at the end of the final age. Our salvation requires judgment because it teaches us the righteousness of God. Since the First Fruits are the first to be saved, they are the first to be judged: 1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God? Christ is only working at present to save His Elect who were chosen from the foundation of the world. All who remain lost in this age will be resurrected to judgment. That judgment is symbolized by the term "Lake of Fire". Fire represents the judgment of Christ. It is not a literal place and there is no literal fire there. Also, "hell" is NOT the penalty of sin - death is the penalty. Here is what Christ's judgment will be like: Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness. Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness. Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these [things] I delight, saith the LORD. Amos 5:24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. 1Pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things. Christ's judgment is not like man's judgment. When Christ judges someone, they learn righteousness. To believe that the lost will remain lost forever is not supported by scripture. The destruction that is mentioned in scripture is the destruction of our carnal nature (Old Man). The Old Man is the one who sins and must die. That is what water baptism symbolizes and what the two pathways Christ mentioned symbolizes. We all must travel the pathway that leads to destruction. Upon that destruction, the New Man in Christ is born. After we are "born again", we must travel the path that leads to the narrow gate. During that journey, we are judged by Christ so that we mature and produce His spiritual fruit. We all must "live by every word" that Christ speaks: Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. God the Father sent Christ to be the Savior of the world. 1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Why did the Father send Him? Because He loves us. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son... Will God's love for us fail? 1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails; So why do you believe Christ is going to fail to save all mankind? God does not ever fail at anything because that would be a sin. Here is what scripture says about the salvation of mankind: 1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Tim 4:10-11 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach. Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many. Rom 5:18-19 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous. Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Yes, it is my desire that all mankind be saved. It is also God's desire and God always accomplishes what He desires: Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Joe

Scripture is the only source that God has given us to understand His truth. It seems that you have decided that mankind has a "free will" apart from scripture and are using analogies to justify your belief. If a person can't support their belief with scripture, then it is advisable to pray & search the scripture to see what it does support. Also, God knows the outcome of things BECAUSE He causes the results to be in accordance with His will. There is no scripture that says God is a time traveler. You said: But still, somehow God has given us free will to make free choices. Repent and trust in Jesus Christ, is a free will choice. There simply is no scripture that supports your statement. In fact, scripture contradicts it. Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Plus, the Doctrine of Free Will adds to the work of Christ which cannot be done. It insinuates that because a person makes a "free will" decision to follow Christ, they are more worthy than those who don't make the right "free will" choice. And as a consequence, those who don't make the right decision are horribly punished in fire for all eternity without there any redeeming purpose to their suffering. Where is the love of God in that belief? The false belief of "free will" is what makes Christians self-righteous. They have fallen away from faith and have added their own works to their salvation. They are stealing from Christ since our salvation is 100% His work. When this happens, this verse applies: Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Why do you insist we have a "free will" when scripture contradicts that belief? The most common reason for believing in "free will" is because without that doctrine, Christ's justification for casting people to "hell" is lost. If our salvation is truly and solely the work of Christ, then why does Christ harm people for something that was not within their power to do? The answer: He doesn't! Here is what scripture says about who will be saved: Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. And a person can't confess that Jesus is Lord except by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit. Is Christ really going to torment in literal fire most of mankind who confesses Him as Lord by the power of the Holy Spirit? Absolutely NOT. That belief is no where in scripture. Here is what scripture actually says: 2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? If God is not willing that any should perish (the real penalty of sin is death, not hell), then who can stop Him? Why do you believe He will fail in saving all mankind? Probably because of the Doctrine of Free Will. Joe

Yes, mankind has a will and can make choices. That is not the issue. There are plenty of verses that show we can make choices. The issue is whether or not mankind can make un-caused choices. Verses like the ones I posted address this issue and they clearly say that God is the cause behind the choices we make. There are no verses that say we can make choices free from God's will. All the verses that deal with this subject say God is the cause behind all things and scripture specially says that mankind's "will" is fully controlled by God. Do you believe this verse below? John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. If a person believes that they accepted Christ from their own supposed "free will", then this verse above cannot be true. God is the cause behind us coming to Christ. If God does not act, then no one would be saved. His gifts and calling are without our repentance. Scripture says that Paul is the pattern whereby all will be saved. Paul's heart was full of hatred for Christ when he set out on the Damascus Road. But when Christ came to him, everything changed in an moment of time. Paul quickly fell to his knees and called Him "Lord". This is how God calls us to Christ. He comes to His temple "suddenly" and without our invitation. Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. Acts 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me. Mar 13:35-36 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. The verse below says we are "blessed" if we read, hear and keep the things written therein. Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. We are blessed because it is God's "will" and "work" that causes it to happen. It is not because we make a "free will" decision. Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: The Day of Christ mentioned above is our moment of conversion. There is a pathway that Christ moves us along which leads to our conversion. Those who are blessed to be saved in this present age have had the "ends of the ages" come upon them. This is the pathway that end-time prophecy teaches. The end-time events are spiritual and they happen within us. They do not happen out in the world has is commonly taught. 1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. When the "ends of the ages" come upon God's Elect in this age, they are converted. When the actual end of the final age comes, everyone else will be converted and God will be "all in all". 1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. All who have died in Adam (all mankind) will be the same "all" who are made alive in Christ. It happens by the "will" and "work" of God. Joe

I noticed you did not include any scriptures that support your statements. Here are some verses that you should consider: Mankind does not have a "free will": Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps. (Darby) Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us. Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? God does not "allow" anything just to happen. He causes all things to happen according to His will. Nothing is left to chance. God even creates evil and use evil for His purposes of good. Isa 45:5-7 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Rom 11:36 because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are the all things; to Him is the glory -- to the ages. Amen. Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God If mankind did have a "free will", then we would all contribute to our salvation which scripture says is not true. We do not have the ability to make a "free will" decision to accept Christ. If anyone believes that they do, then they have some level of self-righteousness which is the sin that leads to death. Christ is the Savior and He does all the work - especially the spiritual work that happens between our ears. God prepares our hearts to give all the answers of our tongue. Even our confession of faith is a work of God. When a person understands and believes this truth, then it is easy to understand how this verse is true: 1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Joe

These "teachings" come from scripture. I recommend you read scripture with the mind set of looking for contradictions with your own beliefs. If you read a scripture and it conflicts with what you believe, then reconsider what you believe. Better yet, start with a clean slate and rebuild your beliefs strictly from scripture. Here are a few foundational verses that you should use to see if what you currently believe is in line with them. I really am trying to help you understand but of course, Christ is the only one who can open your eyes to the truth. I never recommend anyone accepting what someone says UNLESS you can see it from scripture yourself. Otherwise, you will be lead by the hand (like Paul on the Damascus Road) by spiritually blind leaders (blind leading the blind). Your salvation is between you and Christ - no one else. Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? Clearly says mankind does not have a free will. Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? Clearly says God is in full control of His creation and He ALWAYS accomplishes everything He sets out to do. If He says it, it will happen. Psa 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. Clearly says God is good to believers and unbelievers alike. Lam 3:22 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end; Clearly says that God love and mercy never end, even for those who remain lost after they die. 1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Clearly says Christ will bring salvation to ALL mankind - just not immediately but in "due time". These are just a few but if you can accept them as truth, then a great deal of contradictions with scripture will disappear. Joe

Yes, the moment of conversion happens quickly BUT the path that leads up to that moment is very involved. Mat chapter 24 and Luke 21 also teach on the pathway. These chapters are not speaking of end-time prophecy as is commonly taught. It is teaching on conversion and has been happening just as Christ laid out since the Day of Pentecost. Why do you believe that God spent so much time detailing out Paul's conversion? Does it not teach you anything or is it just a story from history with no deeper meaning? Joe

You said: Jesus Christ is the Life--to have Christ is to have the Life. This happens when we are 'Born from above'. I certainly agree with your statement. However, the pathway that leads to "life" is not simple at all. Paul's conversion is the pattern whereby all who are saved must follow: 1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Paul's conversion which was "typed" for us in scripture is the pathway everyone must follow in order to be saved. It is detailed out for us (in spiritual language of course) in Acts chapter 9. It is shown to us in bit and pieces in several other sections of scripture but this is the most complete teaching. Here is a quick overview of the pathway. It includes the pathway that leads to destruction and the pathway that leads to life as Christ mentioned in Mat 7:13-14. We must follow both paths. This first set of verses below represent Paul’s time of being Called into the Church. This is the Early Rain of the Spirit and the time when we travel the pathway that leads to destruction. Acts 9:3-9 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. These events which happened to Paul symbolize the process that we all must go through to enter the Church. The key parts of Paul’s calling are underlined in the verses above and are explained below verse by verse. Verse 3: And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: When an individual is “called out” from this world to follow Christ, Christ will appear to them suddenly and without invitation. We do not have the free will ability to choose Christ as is commonly taught in the Church. Christ’s gifts and calling are without repentance (Rom 11:29) and are by His will and not ours (John 1:12-13). When Christ does appears to us, it is a spiritual event that happens within us (Luk 17:21). Christ cannot be seen with human eyes. Verses 4 & 5: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. When Christ spiritually appears to an unbeliever, they immediately fall to the earth. This symbolizes their carnality and their having risen up out of the sea of humanity to dwell on the earth. Since the new believer remains carnal and spiritually blind, they cannot recognize the “voice” that calls to them. They must rely on being told who He is. Since Paul answers back to the voice as “Lord”, we know that this event is the Early Rain of the Spirit upon the individual (1Cor 12:3). We call Him Lord but lack the ability to know Him for ourselves. He remains hidden from our understanding. Verse 6: And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. From our carnal perspective, we believe that we must produce good works to please the Lord and that is why Paul immediately asks “what wilt thou have me to do?” The Lord answers him by saying to arise and go into the city. The “city” represents the Great City which is Sodom and Egypt. Once in the city, someone (Church leaders) will tell him what he must do. At that point, the new believer “falls away”. Verse 7: And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. No one with Paul experienced what Paul did. This appearance by Christ is only for the person who has been “called” by Christ. It is a completely spiritual event – meaning it happens “between our ears”. Verse 8: And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. After Paul opens his eyes, he “saw no man”. This blindness of Paul’s represents his spiritual blindness. It goes on to say that Paul had to be led by the hand. This explains why a new believer readily follows the false doctrines of the Church (the blind leading the blind). The new believer has no ability to follow Christ for themselves. They are forced to follow other men (the teachings of the carnally minded, spiritually blind Church). Verse 9: And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. Paul was blind and sick in bed for 3 days. The number “3” represents spiritual death. Paul’s time of blindness & death represents the time of Great Tribulation that each new believer must endure in the Church. It is the time of our “falling away” (2Thes 2:3). The new believer is now in the Church and has no ability to know the Truth which would set them free from her. Since Paul cannot receive the true bread from Heaven while in this spiritually darkened state, the scripture says that Paul does not “eat or drink” during the 3 days. It is at this point that the new believer becomes a Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition. He is now “fallen away” and tries to please God through works of the flesh. Just the simple belief in the Doctrine of “Free Will” will cause a believer to fall away. By believing in that doctrine, we take credit for making the “right choice” to follow Christ when in fact, we are not responsible for that decision – Christ is. He gave us that gift of faith before we repented (Just as Paul “typed” for us on the road to Damascus). Our salvation (every step of the way) is 100% the work of Christ. The second set of verses below represent Christ’s second appearance to Paul (after the 3 days are fulfilled) which is the latter rain and the pathway that leads to life. Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Here are my associated comments with the underlined portions of the above scriptures. Verse 15: But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: Here we are told that Paul is “chosen” regardless of His current carnal state and that Paul will bear His name to the world. All of God’s Chosen vessels will likewise bear Christ’s name to this world. Verse 16: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. When we truly follow Christ in this world, we will suffer for it, no exceptions (Rom 8:17 & John 15:20). Verse 17: And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. Ananias symbolizes Christ who will come to His Chosen to give them sight (spiritual understanding) and the Holy Spirit. Verse 18: And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. When Christ comes a second time to those who have been Called & Chosen, among the gifts that He gives them are spiritual understanding, spiritual life and the Holy Spirit. This event is called the Latter Rain of the Spirit/Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Verse 19: And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. After these “gifts” from Christ, Paul “eats” of the true bread (no longer mixed with leaven Mat 13:33) from heaven and is sanctified by the truth. Paul is now saved. Joe

It's no problem. I take no offense. Joe

John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. These three verses contradict your ability to "choose" Christ from a supposed Free Will. Here is why scripture is impossible for a carnally minded believer to understand: Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Scripture is written in another language. It is not written in Hebrew and Greek as most believe. It is written in the Spiritual Language of Christ utilizing Hebrew and Greek. He did this so that no one can understand the knowledge of God unless He reveals it to them. He reveals His truth by healing a believer's spiritual vision and by giving them the faith & love for the truth to believe Him. This only occurs that the second coming of Christ (latter rain/Day of the Lord). He does it this way so that ONLY His Elect are saved in this age. Here is an example of Christ's spiritual language: John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: As you are probably aware, Christ is the Word of God. A witness of Him has been given to us through scripture. Scripture is not the Word of God – Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Both Old & New Testaments are a witness of Him as recorded by the prophets/saints. For most, it is easy to understand that the parables contain hidden spiritual messages. But since Christ is the Word of God, the many things that He said and did are spiritual messages to His Elect. Because Christ’s words are spirit, it necessitates that the reader have spiritual understanding. If we try to understand it literally, we cannot understand His message. Scripture cannot be understood literally - I can't stress that enough. I’ll demonstrate this principle with an easy example on "swords". Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. So if we are to understand it literally, then that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying. So is Christ mistaken or is His message something else? Since His “words are spirit”, His message must be spiritually understood. Christ’s spiritual message is quite different from what He is literally saying. In Matt 26:52, Christ is using a “symbol” or “type” to give us His spiritual message. Here Christ uses the symbol of a Sword. To understand what that symbol means, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture. Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword... Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword... From these examples, it is easy to understand that a Sword represents the Word of God. So Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Mat 26:52 is that all who live (those being “born again”) by the Word of God, must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Word of God. Water baptism is another symbol which sends the same spiritual message as Matt 26:52. When an individual is baptized in water, the immersion represents the death of our carnal nature (Old Man). The ascension out of the water represents our new birth in Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven. This great work of salvation is accomplished by the Word of God (Christ/Sword). Joe

Die means to die spiritually and to die spiritually means to lose your relationship with God. Live means the opposite. This conversation is not going anywhere beneficial so it's time to end it. Joe

I can't agree with your translation. We are called and given the necessary gifts before we repent. Also, we will lose the gifts when we "fall away" back to works of the flesh so the gifts are revocable. Paul on the Damascus Road is the example. He did not repent until after Christ gave him the early rain of the Spirit. The translations that say "irrevocable" are incorrect. The KJV has it right. The KJV has had over 1000 revisions to it since it was written. There are still more revisions that are necessary but this verse in not one of them. The Greek word "anioios" is one of the words that the KJV incorrectly translates. Part of the problem is the translator translates to match their preconceived beliefs.

If you commit even just one sin, you must die. Christ is our near-kinsman redeemer. He purchased our sin debt and now we owe Him our death. He collects it by destroying our Old Man and then gives us new life as a child of God. This event happens at the time of the latter rain.

God is teaching us about good and evil and is not ready to cause most people to repent. Christ is currently only saving the "chosen" (the few, First Fruits, Elect) in this age. They are the only ones who receive the early and latter rain of the Spirit. All other people (unbelievers & fallen away believers) will be resurrected to judgment. Also, we can't repent until God acts within us: Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Until God gives us His "gifts" (faith, love, knowledge, etc.) we cannot repent. He is the cause of our repentance. Only the Elect repent in this age and they are few in number. Paul is the example. Paul repented on the Damascus Road when he was on his way to persecute Christians. He did not make a "free will" decision to accept Christ as Lord. He repented because God caused him to repent. This is Paul's time of the early rain. Three days later in Damascus, Paul received the latter rain of Spirit and was saved. Until a believer receives the latter rain, they will not be saved. It is all the work of Christ and He has chosen who will in the resurrection of First Fruits BEFORE the creation began. They are the vessels of honor. All others are vessels of dishonor. But by the end of the final age, all will be saved and God will be "all in all". 1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Joe

Yes, that is true. But God is the one who causes you to resist temptation. A belief in "free will" will cause a person to be self-righteous and that is the sin that leads to death. No other sin will cause a believer to lose their salvation. This belief in "free will" is a lie from Satan and that is how Satan kills the saints. Joe

Your "senses" may make you think you went to Las Vegas by a "free will" choice but scripture says that is not true. Faith is believing what God says over what we can perceive. Abraham was told he and Sarah would have a son but Abraham lost faith because God was slow in fulfilling His promise and Sarah was past child bearing age. God simply did not give Abraham enough faith to believe God. If we don't have enough faith to believe God, then our only solution is to ask God for more faith. Faith is a gift from God and not something we can produce from our on "will". These verses below take faith to believe: Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? The second verse says that your "goings" come from the Lord. If you go to Las Vegas, it is because God put everything in place for you do go there. If you can't believe that verse, you should pray for more faith. Joe

YES! You have a choice BUT God causes the choice you make. However, God has put obscurity in your heart. You are not aware of His work that causes you make the choices you make. He is spirit and he does His work outside you and within you. For right now, we sin but in "due time", mankind will all be made into the image of God and will sin no more. It is 100% the work of Christ (no room for "free will") and He will not fail us. His "will" always overcomes our "will". Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? Joe

You are. But God is the cause of our sinning. Re-read my last post. Can't you see the difference? We willingly sin but God causes it to happen.

God is responsible for all the sin and evil in the world. He created it and uses it to accomplish His "will" to produce offspring fully made in His image. An image that knows good and evil. However, we are responsible for our sins, too because we sin willingly. God causes all the factors to be in place so that we make that decision to sin. He doesn't force us to sin but we do so willingly because of our weak & carnal spiritual condition. God knows us so well that He knows exactly what must be done to cause the outcome He wants. And He does this without our permission or knowledge that He is doing it. Rom 8:20-22 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. Ecc 3:11 He (God) has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end. Joe

And well you should because you are the one who sinned, not God. I am no different. However, God is responsible for our weak & carnal condition and for the temptation coming our way. When we sin, we do it willingly which is God's intention in the first place. He gave us the Law so that we would sin all the more and so that we would also have knowledge of it. From this knowledge, we are lead to Christ because He is the only One who can spiritually change us. God is in full control: Rom 11:36 because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are the all things; to Him is the glory -- to the ages. Amen. God is responsible for all things within His creation. That includes the negative things like evil, Satan, death and sin. Isa 45:5-7 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Why is it so difficult for you to believe that God is responsible for "all things"? After all, He is God.

Are you saying that you don't sin?

We are taught to resist temptation but scripture says that God is responsible for us being tempted and for us giving into temptation. He made us carnal and weak on purpose. The Law of Moses was given to us so that we can become aware of our sinful state. From that knowledge, God leads us to Christ who is the only one who can change us.