Faithwilldo

Here is a quick teaching on the Wheat and the Tares: Matt 13:24-30 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Christ then explains the parable to His disciples but He does so with another parable: Matt 13:36-43 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. Here are the key symbols: World: mankind Good Seed: Holy Spirit (Early Rain) Wheat: New Man in Christ Tares seed: Satan's lies and deceptions Tares: Man of Sin (worsen carnal nature controlled by Satan) End of the world: the destruction of our Old Man/Man of Sin and birth of the New Man Here is the summarized meaning: As with most parables, the meaning is spiritual and happens within a person. Shortly after Christ comes to an unbeliever (the field/world), He gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit (plants the good seed in them). Satan then comes to them under the cover of darkness (hidden) and plants his seed (lies and deceptions) in them too which causes the Old Man to grow into the Man of Sin (Tares/a worsen carnal nature). The time of the harvest is the second coming of Christ where he gives the believer the Latter Rain of the Spirit. At that time, the brightness of Christ's appearance destroys (burns) the Man of Sin. The New Man (wheat) is born and is harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven. First Fruits The First Fruits are ALL the believers who are harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven from this present age. Rev 14:3-4 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. Chapter 7 of Revelation teaches on the two groups who are saved. The first group is the First Fruits of the harvest and the second group is the rest of mankind. The first group is symbolized by the spiritual term 144,000. In the verses above, the 144,000 are mentioned again and are also identified as the First Fruits. I hope this helps. Joe

Thanks for your comments. I responded to your private message already. First, I want to lay a foundation for what I will be saying. The truth is different than what is commonly taught in the mainstream. So much so that it can be very overwhelming. That is why it is better just to teach on one issue rather than the big picture. The big picture will come when all the "bits and pieces" are put together. Here is a foundational truth that I want to start with: Matt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. To understand this parable, we must identify and define the symbols used. Remember Christ said that His words are "spirit" and Paul said that those "spirit" words carry a different meaning than what "man's wisdom teaches". Most people can understand that some verses contain symbolism but they tend to pick and choose what is literal and what is symbolic. Since Christ's words are "spirit", ALL of His teachings use spiritual symbolism. Matt 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: In the parable above, here is a quick summary of the symbols and what they mean. Woman: carnal mankind Leaven: Satan's false teachings Three: spiritual death Meal: truth (similar to bread) Here is what it means: Believers who have been "called out", who remain carnally minded & spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, will "take" from Satan his lies (leaven) and mix them secretly into Christ's truth until the whole truth of Christ is false. The reason the leaven is mixed into three measures of meal is to show that the new loaf of bread is poisonous and will spiritually kill anyone who consumes it. The believers who eat this bread do so without realizing that it will kill them because the leaven is hidden in the bread. Scripture says that many are called but few are chosen. The many "called" includes God's Elect prior to them receiving the Latter Rain. At that point in time, the Elect are just as deceived and spiritually dead as those who are not chosen but only "called". Everyone will eat this bread after they are first called out. God is not a respecter of persons so even the Elect must experience being made into a "worse creature". The parables of the Ten Virgins and the Wheat & the Tares teach much of the same thing but give us new details. It is a hard truth to accept that everyone who is "called out" is quickly deceived by Satan and that the WHOLE loaf of bread they consume is fully leaven. But after years of study, I have not found even one mainstream doctrine to be true. Most are completely false but some have a few elements of truth mixed into them. The deceived believers will remain deceived until and if Christ comes to them a second time to baptize them with the Latter Rain. Satan's deceptions are so strong that scripture says this: Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. The Elect are deceived by Satan's lies for a time but they come out from that deception when they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This verse also applies: 2Thes 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. This verse applies to carnal mankind which includes all "called out" believers. The called out believers who eat the leavened loaf do not have a "love for the truth". A "Love for the Truth" is one of the gifts that Christ must give us before we can come out of Satan's deception. Satan's deceptions are how Satan kills believers, even the Elect. Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Matthew chapter 24 is a greatly misunderstood chapter. It is teaching about the pathway that leads to conversion that the Elect travel in this present age. It is a teaching about the "end-time" of our Old Man. After He is destroyed, the New Man is born. That is conversion. Back to the verse: False teachers will deliver up the Elect to be afflicted by the false teachings that come from Satan. Once the leavened loaf is eaten, the new believer will spiritually die (shall kill you). The false teachings that are taught by Satan's minsters causes the world to hate Christ along with those who say they follow Him. Certainly the Doctrine of Hell is one of those teachings that cause unbelievers to hate Christians. Even in their unbelief they can see that tormenting someone in fire for all eternity is wrong. For Christ's Elect, He will not abandon them in this fallen away condition. He will come a second time to them and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. When this happens, they will hear Christ say: Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. Once they hear Christ, the Elect are changed in a twinkling of an eye and they come out from this religious way of thinking. Religion is man's attempt to reconcile themselves to God through works. Scripture calls this religion the Great Harlot because this belief system is at it fullest level of corruption (caused by Satan). The Great Harlot is a spiritual term that should be applied within us. After we have been fully made into a "worse creature" (also called the Man of Sin), we are spiritually controlled by the Great Harlot (religious way of thinking). Also, the Great Harlot has plaques that afflict those who follow her. Hell is one of the greatest plagues the Great Harlot causes us to receive. But once Christ comes to us a second time, the city (earthly Jerusalem/Sodom/Egypt/Babylon) from which the Great Harlot rules is quickly destroyed from within us: Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come. I hope you can now accept this portion of the pathway that every believer must endure. It is our time of tribulation. In the final age, it will be even worse and will be known as a time of GREAT tribulation. But as you can see in the verses below, those experiencing Great Tribulation in the final age will come out from it and find salvation: Rev 7: 9-17 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. The first half of chapter 7 represents the Elect of God who were saved first in this age. They are represented by the 144,000 (not a number but a spiritual symbol meaning God's government). The second half of the chapter describes the rest of mankind (who are too numerous to count) who were cast into the Lake of Fire (Christ's judgment). Their judgment takes place on the New Earth outside the gates of the New Jerusalem. There they are tormented and judged but their time of Great Tribulation does come to an end. It does not last forever. Then at the end of their judgment, they will hear Christ's call and will come and drink of the water of life: Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. These verses of scripture above should give everyone peace of mind knowing that Christ will save not only us, but all our friends and loved ones who were not chosen to be save in this lifetime. Christ will wipe away all the tears from their eyes and God will be "all in all". Death will be destroyed and it will be testified to be true that Christ is truly the Savior of the World. Joe

I have no doubts that Christ is going to save me along with everyone else. He is the Savior of the world don't you know? Joe

You seem to still be confusing the First Fruits of the harvest with the final harvest that comes at the end of the growing season. Why do you believe that only the First Fruits are harvested? What about the main harvest that comes at the end of the growing season? Christ is not going to let the main harvest rot in the fields. Joe

We all MUST be destroyed in order to be born again. Do you think you can be born again without your carnal nature being destroyed? Christ makes us all "willing" to be saved once He gives us His gifts. Do you think you were "willing" to be saved without Christ first doing His work in you? If you believe you had that ability, then Christ did not perform all the work in saving you. But of course, that cannot be. No man can boast about anything they did to be saved. You are not smarter or wiser than any lost person. You were merely blessed to be saved first. It is 100% the work of Christ. Anything less would mean that we do have something to boast about and that would mean we are self-righteous - and that is what causes us to "fall away". We can only be saved by faith alone (no works on our part). Everything we need comes from Christ, even our confession of faith. We are saved ONLY because it is God's will for us to be saved. John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Do you believe you are somehow spiritually better from birth than those who still reject Christ? Scripture says that you would still be an unbeliever if Christ had not come to you with the Early Rain of the Spirit. It is 100% His work that has made you into a new creature. Scripture clearly says that you are not special in comparison to other people (God is not a respecter of persons). The spiritual flaws that were inside you from birth are the same spiritual flaws that all mankind has from birth. Christ loves those who are still lost just as much as He loves us and He will not stop working until the last person is saved. No man contributes toward their own salvation. Christ is the Savior and He is NOT going to fail us, not anyone. Joe

All mankind will be saved because it is God's "will" for them to be saved. Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Why do you believe that the "restitution of all things" excludes most of mankind? Christ breaks mankind's salvation into two parts. The first part is when He brings in the harvest of First Fruits (the Elect). That happens in this age. God predetermines who will be in this group. They receive the blessing of "ruling and reigning" with Christ in the final age until the full harvest of mankind is brought into the Kingdom of Heaven. Joe

Jesus did not warn about hell as you describe. Scriptural hell is the unseen place of the dead. It is not the Lake of Fire (Christ's judgment). They are two different things. Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1Cor 3:13-15 says that we are saved by fire. Fire (Christ's judgment) purifies us. It is for our benefit. It teaches us righteousness. Mat 3:11-12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Christ will baptize us with the Holy Spirit AND with fire (judgment). They are both essential for our salvation. Christ does not use literal fire in His judgment nor is His judgment eternal. Judgment ends after we are spiritually purified. Joe

I'm not sure what you are saying here. It has nothing to do with scripture or proving mankind has a free will. The verses I quoted are what we should believe. Joe

Yes, we have a "will" and we can make choices. But that is NOT the issue here. The issue is whether mankind can make "free" choices independent of God's "will". Scripture clearly says that we cannot. God is the cause of the choices we make. When He is ready to save a person, He will give them the gifts necessary to cause them to willingly accept Christ has their Lord and Savior. They cannot make this confession of faith unless Christ acts first and causes it to happen. Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps. Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us. Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? Joe

Christ will make all mankind "willing" to be saved. That is His work. He does this by the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit. John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Joe

These verses you posted are NOT speaking about physical death. They are speaking about spiritual death which means that we have no relationship with the Father. The penalty of sin is both physical and spiritual death. In other words, when we die, we perish and we don't exist anymore. That is why Christ said that He is not willing for any to perish (the penalty of sin). But because of Christ's work on the cross, He will resurrect the dead for the purpose of saving them too, just like He did for His Elect. And as this scripture below says, the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. I take it then that your argument is that the penalty of sin is spiritual death only since the hell doctrine says the people in hell are physically alive. But because the above scripture says death will be destroyed, where does that leave the people that you say are in eternal hell? Are they not spiritually dead anymore? The Doctrine of Hell is completely contradicted by the above scripture. As in Adam, ALL die and it is the same ALL who are made alive in Christ. Christ is truly the Savior of the world. Why do you believe Christ is going to fail? Joe

Here is what scripture says about our ability to choose: Rom 3: 10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. In our carnal condition we have from birth, no one has any desire to seek and accept Christ. Christ must act within us FIRST before we can seek after Him. Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Paul hated Christ but immediately after Christ came to him on the Damascus Road, Paul fell to the ground and called Him Lord. Paul did not repent first. Paul repented as a result of Christ changing him from within with the Early Rain of the Spirit. Paul is the "pattern" for our salvation. Scripture says "many are called". They are the ones who fill up the church pews each week. They all profess faith in Christ. This only happens because Christ gave them the Early Rain. They had no ability to "choose" Christ prior to Christ giving them His "gifts". However, the Early Rain is not enough to save them. They remain carnally minded and spiritually blind after they receive the Early Rain. Because of these spiritual flaws, they still reject the true Christ because the carnal mind hates God. Then Satan, who masquerades as Christ, quickly comes to them and deceives them. He easily accomplishes his deception because he feeds them the things that are pleasing to their carnal nature. The Doctrine of Free Will and the Doctrine of Hell are beliefs that originated from Satan. Those beliefs have no scriptural support and they directly conflict with the character of God. If a person is to ever accept the true Christ, Christ must come to them a second time and baptize them with the Latter Rain. It is only then that they can come out from Satan's deception. What I have stated above is all part of Christ's plan to save mankind. We have no "free will" ability to deviate from this path. Christ is in full control of our spiritual condition - so much so that even the words we speak are a result of Christ's work within us. Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us. Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps Clearly, mankind does not have a "free will". God is in full control of His creation. Nothing happens within it without Him causing it to happen. When He is ready to save a person, He gives them the Early Rain. Without the Early Rain, they have no ability to "choose" Christ from their supposed "free will". John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. There are no verses of scripture that say mankind has the free will ability to direct their own steps. There are no verses that say mankind can seek out Christ and accept Him as Lord prior to Christ changing them from within. And just like Paul, once Christ does His work within us, we all accept Him as Lord. Christ does not force us to accept Him - He changes us spiritually so that is what we want to do. When you first accepted Christ as Lord, did you feel like Christ was forcing you to accept Him? Of course, not. That is not the way Christ works within us. He changes our spiritual makeup so that accepting Him as Lord is the only choice we WANT to make. Joe

These are great verses that should give all mankind hope. If God is not willing that any should perish (the true penalty of sin), then who is going to stop Him from saving us all? Certainly not mankind. Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? Thanks for posting these two verses. Joe

Obviously Christ has not finished His work yet. When He finishes His work, all mankind will confess that Jesus is Lord. God will then be all and all. Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. By the end of the final age, all mankind will be restored to the Father and we will all be brothers in Christ. So when someone does you wrong, just remember that someday they will be your brother/sister in Christ. Do you believe the scriptures I posted above? Joe

If you go and light a person on fire in this world, even the unbelievers know that this is wrong. Christ is our loving and merciful Savior. It is completely outside of His character to harm anyone. The Doctrine of Hell is so ghastly, most people can't even think about it for very long. How can you follow Christ when you believe that He is going to fail to save most of mankind as scripture says He will do? And because He fails, you believe that He is going to torment in literal fire most of mankind without a redeeming purpose. Where is God's love in your Hell doctrine? Is has none. Do you not know that Christ loves us all and is not willing that any should perish (the real penalty of sin)? Fire is a spiritual symbol that represents Christ's judgment. All mankind will be judged because it is a necessary part of the pathway that leads to salvation. Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. Jer 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory. Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these [things] I delight, saith the LORD. Amos 5:24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things. Christ's judgment fills the earth with God's "goodness" and is not like man's judgment. God's judgment will "bless" the nations and make them righteous. It burns away our spiritual impurities. Judgment is good and necessary. The fire is not literal as you believe. 1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Joe

I have learned that whenever scripture mentions "two" things, it is usually related to the Elect and the pathway to salvation. The two gushings of water that you mentioned is possibly another example of the early and latter rain however, I have not studied it yet. I appreciate your comments above about the early and latter rain. You are the first person that I have encountered on the forum that is not only aware of the teaching about the early and latter rain but has an idea of what they mean. If you keep this teaching in mind as you read scripture, it is amazing how many bits and pieces of scripture relate to it. Here is another one of my favorites from the Old Testament: Ecc 11:1-5 Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days. 2 Give a portion to seven, and also to eight; for thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth. 3 if the clouds be full of rain, they empty themselves upon the earth: and if the tree fall toward the south, or toward the north, in the place where the tree falleth, there it shall be. 4 He that observeth the wind shall not sow; and he that regardeth the clouds shall not reap. 5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all. Two portions of bread are cast upon the waters. Bread is Truth (Christ). The first portion of bread goes to “seven” which is a reference to the complete carnality of mankind we have from birth. That same carnal nature is symbolized in the book of Revelation as a Seven-headed, 10 Horned Beast. Then a second portion of bread goes to “eight” because “thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth”. “Eight” is a reference to who we become by Satan’s deception. Satan makes mankind’s “last state” of carnality worse than the first. This change to a worsened carnal state is taught below: Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation. Dan 7:8 and Rev 17:11 also refer to Satan’s rule from within the fallen away church. Satan’s rule is identified with “eight” kings (Rev 17:11). Ecc 11:5 goes on to give us more details of why the two portions of bread are given to mankind. The first section of verse 5 tells us that we do not know the way of the Spirit or how the child grows in the womb. As Paul said, Christ and His Church are a Great Mystery. The woman with child in verse 5 is a direct reference to the Church who is in the process of birthing many new Sons of God (all mankind). The verse finishes with another statement that says again that the “works of God who maketh all” is a mystery. To summarize: God’s plan of producing His offspring through the Church requires TWO portions of bread (two appearances of Christ). The first portion comes to us while we are in the carnal condition we have from birth (seven). The second portion comes to us after Satan has intervened and made our original carnal state even worse (eight, also known at the man of sin). From that worsened state, Christ gives to us the second portion of bread which causes us to be born again as a Son of God. As for the second coming of Christ, the Latter Rain event is the second coming of Christ that is frequently discussed in scripture. There is no literal second coming to this earth were we can see Him with physical eyes. Scripture says that "every eye will see him". That can only be true when one understands that His second coming is spiritual and within each individual. When Christ comes a second time, He brings salvation (Latter Rain) with Him: Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. Because Christ has said that He will save all mankind, then it necessitates that "every eye will see Him" because He will, at some point, come to each of us to save us. Rev 1:7-8 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Most of mankind has already died (including those who "pierced him") so there is no way that every one will see a physical return of Christ as most people believe. Christ is spirit now and that is the way He returns. The spirit world is within us and that is where Christ does His work to change us. He has already come to earth physically to do His work on the cross. Now He is doing His work within us. So that means that His second coming has been happening over and over again within the lives of each of God's Elect since the Day of Pentecost. That is why Revelation 1:8 says that Christ is continually coming (which is, which was and which is to come) because He comes spiritually over and over again to each of His Elect. When His work is finished, He will have come to every person who have ever been born, including those who pierced Him. Then His work will be complete and His reign will end. God will then be "all in all". 1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Joe

You said: If we have already entered (past tense) the kingdom when we became new believers then why did Paul say the verse below to those who are believers? It seems we have not really enterED the kingdom yet necessarily, but we are in the process of enterING it if we are following Christ. Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. The pathway that Christ established for saving mankind is long and full of tribulation. When Christ first calls us out from the world (Early Rain), we are saved but since Christ does not give us all the gifts necessary to remain saved, we quickly "fall away" from Grace back to works. This is what our carnal nature prefers: Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better. When we fall away back to works for our salvation, it causes us to spiritually die. This is the sin that leads to death. It happens to everyone after they first believe because our Old Man does not die upon receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit. That is why the second coming of Christ is so important. It is only when He gives us the Latter Rain of the Spirit that our Old Man is destroyed. In Revelation, where it teaches about the 7 headed beast (carnal mankind), one of the heads has a deadly wound that was healed. This head represents the "called" believers who have fallen away. Their Old Man continues to live. The Elect are not represented in this beast because they have become a new creature in Christ. They no longer have the mark of the beast. Salvation takes the Early and Latter Rain: Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Joe

You said: Eternal death (hell / the lake of fire) i.e. eternal separation from God is the penalty of sin. There is NO SCRIPTURE that says that death is eternal separation from God. That is a teaching of man. Scripture not only says that the penalty of sin is DEATH (not life in hell), it says that those who are dead "know not anything". Ecc 9:5-6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither, have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. This verse above describes the state of death. If Christ was finished with saving mankind after we physically die, then why would He resurrect the lost? After all, the real penalty of sin is death and since the lost are already dead, Christ would not need to do anything further. But He is not finished with His work of saving mankind. He will bring in the full harvest of mankind, not just the First Fruits. Christ is not the failed savior the Doctrine of Hell teaches. Christ is love and love never fails. You said: Truth. There is only one way to truth: You are right in saying that there is only one way to truth. To find truth, Christ must give us the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit. Even then, we must search for it as searching for hidden treasure: Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. The true knowledge of God is hidden and is only revealed to the Elect who were chosen from the foundation of the world. They are given the spiritual vision to find the truth and they are also given enough faith to believe the truth once they find it. Truth cannot be found in any church's doctrinal statements. If it could be, then this verse above is not true. Truth is like a pearl of great value. That is why the gates to heaven have pearls. To enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, we must have "truth" and we can only have it if Christ gives it to us. We can contribute nothing towards our own salvation. Christ does all the work and His work is spiritual which happens between our ears. He will clean the inside of our cup. He has laid out His plan to accomplish this great work in bits and pieces in scripture. He does it this way so that only those He chooses can understand. All believers who have only received the Early Rain are left spiritually blind and carnally minded. When they read scripture, they can only come away with a carnal understanding of it. Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Only when a believer is given the "mind of Christ" can they understand the spiritual teachings of scripture. And Christ only gives that gift to them when they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit (Baptism of the Holy Spirit). Joe

You had a lot to say in your response but for the most part, you lack scriptural support. You say that you don't know where my understanding of scripture comes from - you even suggested that it is from some cult. If you go to my profile and read my conversion testimony, then you will see that I received it from God's Word. I do not teach traditions of men. You said: Matt. 24:24 (WEB) For there will arise false christs, and false prophets, and they will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones. The Elect follow the path that leads to destruction first. During that time, they are deceived and lost just like the "many called" are. Paul's conversion teaches this pathway. Paul is one of the Elect but for a time, He was deceived and working to kill believers - that is why he was traveling to Damascus. But once Paul received the Latter Rain of the Spirit in Damascus, all that suddenly changed. Paul quickly came out from Satan's deception and became one of the greatest apostles. And like Paul, all of God's Elect start off spiritually blind and deceived. It is shown to us in many parts of scripture but it is given to us in bits and pieces so that only God's Elect (after they receive the Latter Rain) can understand. Christ gives the Elect eyes that can see upon their Latter Rain baptism. Christ words are spirit and they carry meanings different from what "man's wisdom teaches". 1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. To understand what Christ is teaching us, it requires the reader to have spiritual vision. This vision is only given to the Elect AFTER they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit. I explained this concept in detail using Mark 8:21-25 in an earlier post on this page. Here is how it is repeated with Paul's conversion: after Christ first came to Paul on the Damascus Road, Paul became blind. This was NOT by accident. Paul's blindness symbolizes our spiritual state after we first believe. And it explains why Satan can quickly deceive us. Satan feeds us stones (Law) and leaven (false doctrines) which are pleasing to our carnal nature. We readily accept his lies since we have not been given spiritual vision and we remain carnally minded. However, once Paul received the Latter Rain, he was given the "gifts" that allowed him to eat "meat". The word "meat" is being used here as a spiritual symbol. It represents the strongest level of spiritual food that we can consume. It is truth. Paul only has this ability to consume meat AFTER he receives the Latter Rain. Before that event, Paul languished in the wilderness where Satan dwells. This was symbolized by him being in bed for 3 days in Damascus. The number three symbolizes spiritual death. Other portions of scripture that teach the pathway are the parable of the Wheat and the Tares, the parable of the Ten Virgins, the story of the woman caught in adultery, James teaching on the Early and Latter Rain, Jesus' teaching on the 7 evil spirits that return to us which they find our house empty and the nation of Israel's wandering in the wilderness for 40 years. These all teach different aspects of the pathway that leads to destruction and life. You said: Genuine Christians will NOT "fall away and spiritually die"! We all start off (before becoming Christians, by the saving grace of God) spiritually dead, then, if God saves us, he makes us born again and alive in Christ. You are teaching another gospel, with another Christ; and the word of God says that we are to regard such people as accursed. Yes, I am definitely teaching about another Christ that you do not know. He is loving & merciful and would never harm His children (all mankind) in literal fire for all eternity for no redeeming purpose as the Doctrine of Hell teaches. That doctrine is totally void of love and makes Christ out to be worse than Hitler or Stalin. This horrible, blasphemous doctrine has even been used to justify burning people alive - because after all, they will be spending eternity in hell anyway. How sick is that! Genuine Christians are only those believers who have been chosen by Christ and who have received the Latter Rain of the Spirit (also called the Baptism of the Spirit). We must receive the Early and Latter Rain before we are saved. The time period between the Early and Latter Rains is a time of wandering in the wilderness, deceived by Satan who feeds us his stones of Law. Once a believer consumes these stones, they will "fall away" and spiritually die. That is the sin that leads to death. When one believes that they can contribute to their salvation, they have eaten these stones and have fallen away from Grace and remain under Law which condemns them. The story of the woman taken in adultery shows this aspect: John 8:3-10 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? The stones the Pharisees hold represent the Law. The woman in the story represents mankind. When Christ first writes in the earth it represents when Christ gives carnal mankind the Early rain of the Spirit. However, after Christ first writing the Law in our hearts, the Pharisees do not drop the stones. The Law still accuses the woman. Christ then writes in the earth a second time and then the Pharisees drop their stones. The Law cannot condemn us any longer. Christ MUST write in our hearts TWO times. That is why the Elect are represented by the number two. Joshua and Caleb are a "type" of the Elect. They live through their "wilderness" experience and cross the Jordan River into the Promised Land. The rest of the nation of Israel who went through the Red Sea (type of Early Rain) with Joshua and Caleb died in the wilderness. Those who died represent the many called believers (Early Rain only) who do not receive the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain for Joshua and Caleb was symbolized when they crossed the Jordan River. They are saved at that point but they are still in need of judgment. Christ's judgment will teach them righteousness and help them defeat the "giants in the land". The time period after they crossed the Jordan River is the portion of the pathway that leads to life. The portion of the pathway that leads to destruction takes place in the wilderness and it ends when they cross the Jordan River. At that time, the Old Man receives "destruction" and the New Man is born. That is the moment of conversion. It takes only a moment to be changed but nearly a lifetime to get to that point. Most believers are not chosen and will die in the wilderness fully deceived by Satan. This is all part of Christ's plan to save mankind. Christ's plan to save mankind comes in two parts: 1). the Elect who are First Fruits of the harvest are saved first (now in this age) 2). but the rest of mankind will only be saved at the end of the harvest season (Feast of Tabernacles) in the final age (the Lake of Fire age). It is at that time that this call go out to them: Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. John 7:37-38 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. I know what I have said in this post will probably not sway you from what you believe but maybe it will help you at some future time. Joe

Most people can't believe that the churches are eating the fully leavened loaf of bread. At first, I had difficulty believing it too but only at first. I used to be an end-time prophecy teacher in my last church that I attended in 2004/2005. That was the hardest subject to for me to admit that I was wrong about. I have since learned that all end-time prophecy is only teaching about the pathway that leads to conversion. The "end-time" that Christ is teaching about is the end-time of our carnal nature (Old Man). All end-time prophecy is personally relevant to each of God's Elect today just as it was for those who lived during the time of Paul. When the Elect experience the Latter Rain, death and destruction occurs to the Old Man but at the same time, the birth of the New Man occurs. However, it's a long road to get to that point and it takes most of a life time. We must wait on the Early and Latter Rain to fall upon us. This is the patience of the saints mentioned in scripture. It takes time to make a new child of God. The verse below says that "the ends of the ages are come" upon God's Elect now. Most of mankind will have to wait until the literal end of the final age when all mankind will be saved. The Elect, being the First Fruits, are blessed to experience their end-time now. 1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. And just as Christ said in Matthew 24, the generation that He was speaking to would not pass away until all the events were fulfilled. It was fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost in the upper room and it has continued being fulfilled with all the Elect since that time. End-time prophecy has nothing to do with all the many things that are commonly taught. Also, for correct understanding of scripture, one must know that salvation is a pathway that leads to conversion. Paul's conversion is the pattern everyone else must follow to be saved. 1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. The pathway involves a lot of bad things like being deceived by Satan, falling away and become a worse creature than before. Most believe that those verses are NOT written for them but only about other people. Christ said that mankind doesn't live (salvation) just by bread but by every word that God speaks. Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. When Christ says we will be deceived, then everyone is deceived. When He says that we will fall away and spiritually die, then everyone that will fall away and die. There is a pathway that Christ takes us along that will eventually lead to Him and salvation. But that pathway is long and full of tribulation. We all must travel the path that leads to destruction first before we can travel the path that leads to life. God is not a respecter of persons. Lastly, one of the keys to understanding scripture is to realize that Christ is teaching us about what happens to us spiritually (between our ears). He uses physical symbols which represent spiritual truths. Our carnal minds only want to understand those things as being "out there" and not "within" ourselves. Joe

I understand where you are coming from because I have experienced a great deal of divisions and splits within some of the denominations I have attended many years ago. But I can honestly say by "looking back" that NONE of what they taught was even close to the truth of Jesus Christ. The body of Christ is one just as Christ and the Father are one. If the body is not one, then the body is not of Christ. Here is what Christ says about the many who have been called out: Matt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. When we are first called out to follow Christ, Christ leaves us spiritually blind and carnally mind. Satan then quickly moves in and deceives us (parable of the ten virgins & parable of the wheat & the tares). The bread we eat is fully leavened with Satan's lies. I don't know of any mainstream doctrine that is true. Because of their spiritual blindness and Satan's deceptions, many different denominations exist. None of the denominations have any spiritual understanding. The wolves are still in control and will stay in control because it is all part of God's plan to save mankind. But for the Elect's sake (who are no spiritually different when called out), Christ will come to them a second time and heal their spiritual vision so that they can come out from Satan's deceptions. This event is the second coming of Christ when He brings the Latter Rain of the Spirit to a fallen away believer who is also "chosen". Here is one of the places in scripture where this truth is taught: Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand? In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response is recorded in scripture, however, Christ answers His own question in the very next 4 verses. Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly. Christ speaks to us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer through the type and shadow of His healing of a blind man. In these verses, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. These actions by Christ spiritually represent the time when an unbeliever is "called" out from the world and into the Church. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. This is the Early Rain of the Spirit when Christ first calls us out from the world. These actions by Christ occur as the blind man is looking down and they symbolize the carnal aspect of the blind man’s healing. After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a symbol for man's truth that comes from the earth (our carnal nature). It is not Christ's truth which only comes from heaven. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. It is the time of the "early rain" or Paul's Damascus road experience. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind: 2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Baptism of the Holy Spirit when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a Chosen believer. He was first Called Out from the world and then he was shown to be one of God's Chosen. He received the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit so as to start producing the spiritual fruit Christ demands of His harvest of mankind. Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Joe

I've read that there are over 2000 different denominational churches. How could this be if everyone is reading from the same scripture??? The reason for this diversity of so called "truth" is because "the blind are leading the blind". If one has been given "eyes that can see", then one can see that there is only one truth. Why would God allow this to happen to the "called out ones"? Answer: He doesn't allow it to happen, He causes it to happen! Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Scripture is written in spiritual language utilizing Hebrew and Greek. It cannot be understood literally. The "words" used by Christ have different meanings than what "man's wisdom teaches". 1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. Christ's words are spirit and carry a spiritual meaning: John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. We understand scripture by comparing spiritual words with how those same spiritual words are used elsewhere in scripture. Also keep in mind that Christ uses the physical to teach about the spiritual. For example: Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. So if we are to understand it literally, then that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying. So is Christ mistaken or is His message something else? Since His “words are spirit”, His message must be spiritually understood. Christ’s spiritual message is quite different from what He is literally saying. In Matt 26:52, Christ is using a “symbol” or “type” to give us His spiritual message. Here Christ uses the symbol of a Sword. To understand what that symbol means, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture. Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword... Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword... From these examples, it is easy to understand that a Sword represents the Word of God. So Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Mat 26:52 is that all who live (those being “born again”) by the Word of God, must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Word of God. Water baptism is another symbol which sends the same spiritual message as Matt 26:52. When an individual is baptized in water, the immersion represents the death of our carnal nature (Old Man). The ascension out of the water represents our new birth in Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven. This great work of salvation is accomplished by the Word of God (Sword). You should not accept the authority of the blind leaders of the church. Christ is our head, we are the body. All truth comes from Christ and that is what we should be praying for and searching for: Luke 11:9-13 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. Joe

The Jesus I know is kind, patient, long-suffering and merciful. But more importantly, He is love and He never fails. We are His creation and He will work to save each and every one of us. After all, that is why He came to us: 1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. But what is Christ saving us from though??? He did not come to save us from hell because hell is not the penalty of sin. Death is the penalty of sin but He did not come to save us from paying that penalty. Christ came to give us new life after we pay the penalty of death. Here is the only single verse description of the Gospel of Christ that I have found in scripture: John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. From our payment of death, Christ will resurrect us and give us life more abundantly. That "abundant" life He came to give us is a life free from sin and a restored relationship with the Father. As for judgment, all mankind must be judged because we have all sinned. And since we have all sinned, we all must die. Paul's conversion "typed" the pathway to salvation (also shown in many other places in scripture). This is the pathway that takes us from "death" to "life". 1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Paul received the Early Rain of the Spirit on the Damascus Road. That is where his Old Man received a blow from the sword of Christ. But the blow did not kill his Old Man. His deadly wound was healed (Rev 13:3). From there, He had to be lead by the hand (the blind leading the blind) because Christ left him spiritually blind and unable to know the Truth. Upon arriving in Damascus, Paul laid in bed for three days which represents Paul's spiritual condition which occurred from his having "fallen away" (the sin that leads to death). But because Paul was "chosen" from the foundation of the world, Christ came to Paul a second time and gave him the Latter Rain of the Spirit. It is at this point that Paul's Old Man begins dying which is what the Law demands (the death we must pay). Also at this time, the New Man in Christ is born within Paul. Paul is now on the pathway that leads to life and part of that pathway is judgment. Judgment is a necessary part of salvation because through judgment, we learn the righteousness of God. Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. The believers (the "many") who were not chosen by Christ will remain in their "fallen away" condition until they physically die. From there, they will be resurrected in the final age with the unbelievers. There they will face judgment and will ultimately travel the same pathway that leads to life in the Kingdom of Heaven. The verses that you quoted in your post are referring to the believers who were not chosen. They remained in a state of spiritual death after having "fallen away" to return to "works" for salvation. That is what happens when one "falls away" from the truth. It happens to all believers after they first come to Christ. It is part of the pathway that leads to destruction that we all must follow. When we fall away, we come under the Law again. And because we are under the Law and because we break the Law, Christ says that we "practice lawlessness". He then sends us away to judgment to learn righteousness. Matthew 7:21–23 (AV) 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that practice lawlessness. Christ is mankind's savior and He never fails. He has a plan to save each and everyone of us. He is saving the First Fruits of His harvest in this present age and He will save all who remain in the final age. Then this verse will be testified to be true: 1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Our salvation is the work of Christ. It is not our work nor do we contribute to His work. Even our confession of faith is a work of Christ within us. He causes all things to happen as He wills it to happen. Our "will" to reject Him is powerless when Christ come to us. Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? This is the Jesus I know. Joe

All but God's Elect are cast into the Lake of Fire. This is why: Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. The death that is being spoken of in the verse above is not just speaking of a physical death but also a spiritual death. Spiritual death is not having a relationship with the Father and the only way this can be restored is by following the pathway to salvation that Christ will cause us all to follow. Christ is presently only saving those who have been chosen from the foundation of the world. They are the Elect/Chosen/Saints/Overcomers/First Fruits. Christ is not saving anyone else during this age. Let me explain: The "Lake of Fire" is a spiritual term and represents the judgment of Christ. There is no literal hell as is commonly taught. All who are cast into Christ's judgment (Lake of Fire) will be judged based upon their sins. For aborted babies who have not sinned, they will still need to be saved because death was passed down to them from Adam. Salvation is "life" which is having our relationship with the Father restored and being made into the image of God who never sins. Everyone cast into Christ's judgment will travel the same pathway that leads to salvation which the Elect's just traveled. This is the end result of Christ's work within each of them: 1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Christ truly is the Savior of the world. 1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Joe

Thanks for your comments. I have prayed for judgment, too because I know that the Lord's judgment will teach me righteousness. Here are some verses: Psa 9:8 And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness. Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD. Isa 61:8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them. Jer 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory. Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these [things] I delight, saith the LORD. What happens when Christ judges us? Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Answer: people will learn righteousness just as Isa 26:9 says: Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Without judgment, we will not learn righteousness. We need judgment and the sooner it comes, the better for us. Judgment begins with the Elect in this age: 1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God? The Elect who are being judged now are the First Fruits of the harvest. That is why the verse says it is "ripe time" for judgment to begin with the Elect. The Elect are being made ready for harvest and part of those preparations is judgment. But as for the rest of mankind, they will not be made ready for harvest until the end of the harvest season in the final age. Thanks again for sharing you thoughts. Joe