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The trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible…

I just gave you a scripture of the dead shall be raised incorruptible that is plain, and to the point they’re not raised any other way, except in incorruption

yes of course...everyone pre second coming who was raised from the dead like Lazarus was raised in mortal bodies...but at the second coming all will be raised incorruptible... As per 1 Cor. 15:52..."...for the trumpet shall sound, AND THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED...' Both the living and the dead will be changed to incorruptible bodies...both bodies will then ascend...the dead to heaven and the living to the clouds to meet them...meaning the dead will ascend to heaven in incorruptible bodies...!

yes of course...everyone pre second coming who was raised from the dead like Lazarus was raised in mortal bodies...but at the second coming all will be raised incorruptible...

The seventh trumpet sounds and the kingdoms of this world come down...this is the fulfillment of Daniel...And I beheld till the thrones were cast down and the Ancient of days did set...unto him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all people nations and languages should serve him...this is the second coming and it is fulfilled at the 7th trumpet...this is when we are changed and rise up, this is when the two prophets were changed and rose up...this is when mortality is swallowed up in life, we are all changed at the same time...the two prophets were changed at the seventh trumpet, so will everyone else...after the change the dead in Christ are raised as shown by the two prophets, and then we the living will rise up to meet them in the clouds...the living will meet the two prophets in the clouds as God will be bringing those that sleep in Jesus with him ...along with the two prophets the living will meet all the other resurrected saints of all time...so there will be Isaiah, Daniel, Peter, Paul and Mary. The seventh trumpet is the time of the dead that they should be judged and that he gives rewards to his servants the prophets...this is the day of judgment at the seventh trumpet...this is the day he sets up his kingdom on this earth...this is the day he will say to the sheep enter into the joy of the lord...this is the day of our beginning to reign with him for the 1000 years...these subjects are line upon line, precept upon precept they are not in chronological order...at the first of revelation we see he is coming with clouds and every eye will see him...at the last of Revelation we see him saying, behold I come quickly...they are like snapshots of your trip to Yellowstone or something...here you are standing by the bear...here you in front of Old Faithful..here you are at the lodge...ect...ect..each snapshot contains its own context...so when he is talking about the 7th trumpet and the kingdoms coming down at that trumpet, everything else must line up within that context. In other words we can't say the 7th trumpet sounds and the kingdoms come down and then say it didn't happen at the seventh trumpet and is yet to come...NO...it happens at the seventh trumpet and we are all changed and both the living and the dead are changed, the dead ascend up to heaven in glorified bodies and the living will meet them later when they come in the clouds, but the change has already happened...this is why what Paul said is so much important...he set up the criteria and holds every view in check...pre trib violates the criteria as does every other construct that has multiple resurrections and raptures...but just as it solves the problem of the resurrection and rapture only happening one time, it also solves the problem of when everyone gets their glorified bodies...AT THE LAST TRUMP and seeing that is the case, the change that Paul said will happen to all at the last trump occurs BEFORE anyone ascends up to heaven...as it states the trumpet shall sound...first thing....and the dead shall be raised incorruptible...second thing...WHEN the dead are resurrected they are in INCORRUPTIBLE BODIES...they do not get it later...they get it when the trumpet sounds...same with the living...ALL get changed AT THE LAST TRUMPET...this is before ANYONE ascends up...but this is crucial because it proves the dead are NOT RAISED IN CORRUPTIBLE BODIES... so when the two prophets were resurrected they HAD INCORRUPTIBLE BODIES ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURE...THEY WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE.. so whenever they are resurrected they are given an incorruptible body...which goes without saying they must first be resurrected before they ascend up to heaven...

When the 7th angel sounds is when the kingdoms of this world becomes the kingdoms of the Lord.. this is the day he returns.. this is the second coming.. the is the day Paul said concerning the coming of the lord AND our gathering together unto him.. the gathering is the resurrection / rapture.. the coming of the lord happens at the 7 th trumpet.. the rapture happens then.. we all get changed then .. this is when the change happens to us.. it’s when the change happens to the two prophets it’s when ALL ARE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP… there is no more trumpets after the seventh

Agreed The dead in Christ will be changed at the same time the living will be changed at the Last Trump and not before...

The dead will be raised at the second coming...not before And there will be all those in the graves that have to come forth...both righteous and wicked...the reason they are still sleeping in the dust of the earth and have to come forth out of their graves is because they are dead and have not previously been resurrected...in Dan. 12:2 they are all still sleeping in the dust of the earth...and what happens? BOTH GROUPS AWAKE AND GET THEIR REWARDS...they didn't already have their rewards and they were not awake until they heard the voice of the Son of God to come forth out of their graves. And what does it say 'AT THAT TIME' those that sleep shall awake and what else happens AT THAT TIME? It is apparent the time referred to in Daniel is at the second coming when it says 'but he (the man of sin) shall come to his end and none shall help him...which is when Jesus destroys him by the brightness of his coming and the beast is taken and cast into the lake of fire...so when it says AT THAT TIME, it can be said 'AT THE SECOND COMING' the dead will rise and both groups will be rewarded...the scriptures in Revelation clarify with more detail that 'his reward is with him and he will reward every man according as his deeds shall be...' But also more detail in Rev. 11 when it says 'now is the time of the dead, that they should be judged and that God will give rewards to them that fear him, the saints and his servants the prophets...it must be acknowledged that THIS IS THE TIME THE SAINTS RECEIVE THEIR REWARDS...NOT BEFORE!!! This is 'THAT DAY' that Paul was referring to when he said God would give a crown of life to all those who love his appearing...YOU CANNOT DENY THAT THE TIME OF THE DEAD INCLUDES THE RIGHTEOUS DEAD FOR THIS IS THE DAY OF JUDGMENT... There was no day of judgment before this...this is the TIME OF THE DEAD THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED This is where it is spelled out in black and white that the dead will be judged and the righteous will be rewarded...if they are rewarded here that means there was no day of judgment before this and they had received no rewards until that time...this is OT saints, this is NT saints, this is ALL THE SAINTS BEING JUDGED...you cannot deny this...his servants the prophets includes OT prophets...them that fear his name both small and great includes every saint, and if there is any question it says 'his saints...' and who might that be? His saints, his holy ones, those who served him in whatever time period. This is equally not true...of course we are resurrected spiritually, that is shown in John 5 that the time is now that they that are dead shall hear his voice and they that hear shall live...but the next part in John 5:28-29 is not about a spiritual resurrection but pertaining to those who are in the graves and it distinctly spelled out as something that IS NOT NOW but is in the future...one it is 'the hour is coming AND NOW IS,' pertaining to the spiritual resurrection, but the physical resurrection is 'FOR THE HOUR IS COMING..' i.e. it is NOT NOW but it will come IN THE FUTURE..i.e. the second coming...not now but at the 7th trumpet, not now but at the end of this age. Absolutely misplacing the spiritual resurrection with the physical one...they are not the same...those that are spiritually resurrected and have physically died will be in the class of the dead in Christ... These are the dead in Christ...absolutely wrong...and when they are re-labeled as being unbelievers it is an additional error on top of the first one... The spirit returns to God who gave it...they are sleeping IN JESUS...that is where they are sleeping until they awake at the second coming...believers are in Christ while they are physically alive, and they are sleeping in Christ when they die...at the resurrection they awake...they are not unbelievers when they die in Christ...absolutely wrong. The dead burying the dead means those who were spiritually dead were burying someone who was physically dead...when we die we are sleeping in Jesus and our spirit returns to God who is in heaven...but their body is in the dust of the earth just like the two prophets who were slain...their bodies were dead and they were sleeping in Jesus...at the seventh trumpet it says the spirit of life from God entered them and they arose upon their feet...they were dead in Christ and now they are alive...they were sleeping in Jesus and now they are awake, they died in mortal bodies and were resurrected in immortal bodies...this is the change that happens to ALL THE DEAD IN CHRIST...they die in mortal bodies and are resurrected in immortal bodies...just like the two prophets...they did not ascend up in flesh and blood bodies...no...it states at the 7th trumpet we shall all be CHANGED...this is what Job was waiting for in Job 14...all the days of my appointed time WILL I WAIT, UNTIL MY CHANGE COMES...' this is THAT DAY that Paul was talking about for all believers...the two prophets did not already have immortal bodies when they died...NO NO NO...their bodies laid in the street for 3.5 days decaying in the dust, because they were mortals like us...but WHEN, AND NOT BEFORE, the spirit of life entered into them from God, they were resurrected...WHY DID THEY NEED TO BE RESURRECTED? Because they were dead....Why did they ascend up to heaven? Because the scripture states the dead in Christ will RISE first...the two prophets are the best example of this...they were absolutely dead and they rose up to heaven in a cloud and their enemies saw it happen. You are saying they already had immortal bodies at the very time they died...but they didn't ...their bodies were laying dead in the street...what kind of body did they get when the spirit of life entered into them? An immortal body. Why did they get an immortal body right then? Because they didn't have one before. And how does this relate to what Paul said? Extremely pertinent...as BOTH THE LIVING and the dead are given immortal bodies, or are changed at the same time...what does that mean? It means the dead didn't have it before the 7th trumpet sounded and neither did those that were alive and remain...and if the living get it at the seventh trumpet and the dead get it at the same time, then guess what? It would be meaningless to say both are changed at the seventh trumpet if the dead already had it. Absolutely false. Both the living and the dead are changed at the same time which is the last trump...the dead are resurrected and given an immortal body contrary to the false belief that every believer gets changed at the time they die...this is absolutely false as Paul completely destroys that idea...if everybody got an immortal body at death it would be completely false of Paul to say the dead in Christ would receive an immortal body at the same time those that were living did...it would also be false to think that God will bring the dead in Christ down to earth to rule and to reign with him if they were unbelieving, unsaved persons who did not follow God. HOW ABSURD IS THAT? VERY ABSURD...God said he will COME WITH ALL HIS SAINTS, NOT WILL ALL THE UNBELIEVERS AND UNSAVED... The dead in Christ are not unjust...they are blessed and holy...ALL THE SAINTS are coming with him...to get all the saints to come with him they must first awake from sleep...which is what the resurrection is...if they were already awake and had glorified bodies there would be no need for a resurrection at all...Paul said we shall all be changed at the last trump...everyone being changed when they die is not what Paul said...it is different from what Paul said...it is contrary to what Paul said...people do not get glorified bodies upon death...Jesus is the only one who has immortality...Paul would have been misleading all the believers to tell them Jesus was the only one who had immortality when he really knew all the saints who had already died had it...Paul was not lying...Paul was saying the truth...Jesus is the ONLY one who has immortality and NO ONE WILL GET IT UNTIL THE LAST TRUMPET SOUNDS... No of course not...As Jesus said ALL THOSE THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES SHALL COME FORTH...this is the wicked as sure as the righteous...and all will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ...the sheep on one side and the goats on the other..they are resurrected to be judged and the goats will be cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...its the same story over and over...the good and bad fish are drawn to shore at the end of this age and the good are kept and bad are cast away...the faithful and the unfaithful servants are both judged at the second coming...the faithful are rewarded and the unfaithful is cast into outer darkness...the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest and the tares are cast into a furnace of fire and the wheat are gathered into the barn. And when does this happen? At the day of judgment at the 7th trumpet...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment...it is the time of the dead that they should be judged...at the 7th trumpet is the time they are judged, not as each individual dies... They don't 'get their names in the book of life after they have died...of course not...if your name is not in the book of life before you die then one would be condemned at the GWT...nobody can get their name in the book of life after they die...now is the day of salvation...not then...of course the wicked are resurrected but they are not resurrected so they can do some good works to get their name in the book...NO NO NO! Absolutely NO! No there is a great conversion at the second coming and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ...this is the great multitude that is washed in the blood of the lamb that comes out of every nation and tongue...these are the nations the saints rules over during the 1000 years...these are the people that go up from year to year to be taught the ways of the Lord as Isaiah said...'Come and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord...and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths...these are the nations that are left that go up from year to year to Jerusalem. Of course not...we will rule and reign on the earth (not in hell) for 1000 years... Yes, God used the word dead to describe the dead...that is what happens when a persons spirit leaves their body...they die...God didn't use the wrong word and neither did I...I said they are the dead in Christ, God said they are the dead in Christ, and the dead in Christ will be resurrected and get a new body...they don't have one now, but will get one when all are changed at the last trump and not before.

they are not two events... 1 Thess. 4... is describing the event of the second coming..1 Cor. 15 is defining what the resurrection of the dead is..no contradiction between the definition and the event...the resurrection of the dead is what is being dealt with...not the ascension up to heaven...

yes

The dead in Christ are not unbelievers…They are saints who have died..NOT UNBELIEVERS!!!

Right- You re- label the saints who have died as being non believers, not saved, those who didn’t follow God… ALL OF THIS IS ABSOLUTELY OPPOSITE TO TRUTH!!! IF WE BE DEAD WITH Christ WE SHALL ALSO LIVE WITH HIM… not we are non believers. Not we are not saved, not people who didn’t follow God.. The dead in Christ are relabeled as unbelievers and so you can deny what is truly being said that both those who are alive in Christ and those who have died in Christ will all be changed at the last trump… It says the dead will be raised incorruptible… SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE… IN THE FUTURE AT THE LAST TRUMP - not as each person dies. paul said God would give him a crown of life WHEN? At that day THAT ALL THOSE WHO LOVE HIS APPEARING WILL GET THEIR CROWN. Paul did not tell them all the saints would get their crown upon death but rather all would be rewarded AT THAT DAY…AT WHAT DAY? At the second coming when God will the reward every man according as his deeds shall be.. What did he say? Behold I come quickly AND MY REARD IS WITH ME… Why is God bringing his reward with him if they already had their crown of of life given to them? BECAUSE THEY HAD NOT YET BEEN REWARDED IS WHY… Be cause no one is Changed until the last trumpet sounds…That is when it says he will give rewards to Who? TO THE SAINTS, to his servants the prophets, to them that fear his name both small and great… Why is he giving out rewards to the saints and them fear him at the Seventh trumpet? BECAUSE THEY DID NOT HAVE THEM BEFORE!!!

The seventh trumpet sounded when they went up.. it’s at the last trump EVERYBODY gets immortal bodies .. everybody includes the two prophets.

Yes like the two prophets their bodies had already began to decompose and return to the dust.. but the spirit of life from God entered in to them and they were resurrected.. at this point they put on immortality as it says the body that is down is not that body that shall be… the two prophets were changed at the same time the living received their glorified bodies - all at the same time at the last trumpet… then these glorified bodies rose up into heaven and will be coming back that same day with all his other saints at the second coming… They only go to heaven and come back to the earth that very same day

They rose up at the 7th trumpet .. that was the time all the dead in Christ rose .. rev 11 - “ and they heard a great voice from heaven saying come up hither.. that same hour there was a great earthquake .. the phrase the second word is past the third comes quickly .. AND THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED… It is absolute fact ALL WILL BE RESURRECTED AT THE LAST TRUMPET .. These two prophets are no exception.. they are mortal men who God empowered to do certain things and they died because they were just mortals like everyone else and then God raised them from the dead … they died in Christ and were resurrected and ascended up to heaven in a cloud..This was the voice of the archangel and the trump of God and that very day they were resurrected is the same day Jesus comes with all his saints

No they are the dead in Christ not dead in sin

Here ye, hear ye all pre trib people who think God is just going to bring down the saints from Pentecost to before the tribulation.. This is not what Isaiah or Zech said.. zech said all the saints would come down and Isaiah said the ones who are SANCTIFIED will come down with him not the the saints from Pentecost to before the tribulation… you can look up numerous scriptures showing God sanctified people for his work in the Old Testament here is just one: Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I amthe LORD that doth sanctify H6942 you. here is the verse in Isaiah showing THESE SANTIFIED SAINTS ARE SHOWN TO BE IN HEAVEN AND THESE, along with the sanctified saints in the New Testament will be coming down with Jesus.. they were all UP TGERE and they are all going to come DOWN HERE I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness. 4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle. 5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

Isaiah - I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness. 4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle. 5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land. His sanctified ones.. the saints… come from the end of heaven…the way they got there is the dead in Christ rose first.. this is not meaning they were resurrected first for both the living and the dead were changed at THE EXACT SAME TIME… When the dead was resurrected they were not resurrected with the same body but rather this mortal puts on immortality.. and as Paul the body that was down is not the body that would be….. so the “rising first” means they ascended first before the living ascends and the dead are not taken to the clouds but to the uttermost part of heaven where Jesus is and then it states the armies THAT WERE IN HEAVEN Follow him down— he doesn’t pick them up in the clouds on his down he BRINGS THEM WITH HIM.. they are in the uttermost part of heaven - he does not pick them up in the clouds

For him to gather his elect FROM the uttermost part of heaven means there were saints that were in the uttermost part of heaven- not just the sky where the birds fly..

The two prophets are NT saints that were killed and the spirit of life from God entered them… they heard a voice saying come up hither and they ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN IN A CLOUD…and their enemies beheld them.. when he said the dead in Christ rise first it means they are taken to heaven so they can come DOWN from heaven with Jesus.. The armies that FOLLOWED Jesus were the saints and angels.. for them to FOLLOW Jesus down it means they are BEHIND him and he goes before them.. they have to be UP THERE TO COME DOWN.. this is the whole problem with pre trib- the only way the dead in Christ GET UP THERE IS THAT THEY RISE FIRST… but in order for the living to MEET them the dead have to be descending down .. so the dead come down from above meaning that is where they were while the living go up from the earth meaning that is where they were, and both MEET IN THE CLOUDS How did all those people shown to be IN HEAVEN get there and why would the 2 prophets have to ASCEND up there to be IN HEAVEN meaning THEY WERE NOT THERE BEFORE THEY GOT THERE

There is lots of Scripture showing the OT Israel going up to heaven. I didn’t mean the resurrected OT saints and resurrected Trib saints don’t go to heaven .. I meant pre trib only falsely isolates out a group of saints from Pentecost to before the tribulation as being the resurrected saints that go heaven… what I was meaning that there is no categorizing of these certain group of saints get resurrected at one time and another group of saints being resurrected at another time.. in other words when it states the tribulation saints were resurrected it does not mean there were no other saints resurrected at that same time, rather that particular scripture is only stating those that were killed during the tribulation were resurrected … again Paul fixed ANY misunderstanding by saying WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP.. meaning all the OT and NT saints will be changed at the same time… same with “many of those that sleep in the dust shall awake in Daniel 12 - Its not a separate resurrection for only believing Israelites because as Jesus said all the saints God had were given to Christ … but the word “many” of them that sleep sometimes stumps people that leads to assuming some will be raised and some won’t.. The truth is the word “many” means “multitudes” or only describing the quantity of those raised will be great, not that some are raised and some are not… also shown when scripture says Jesus died for the sins of “many.” Did he really die for quite a lot of people but not for all? Of course he died for all but many is used as a synecdoche where a part is put for the whole… You can see it is clarified when other scriptures show Jesus gave himself a ransom for ALL.. Of course all OT and NT saints are resurrected and go to heaven and then come down from heaven with him fulfilling zech That he will come and ALL THE SAINTS WITH HIM.. The scriptures pre trib points out in 1 Thess.4 are alleged to pertain only to saints from Pentecost to before the tribulation, what I was pointing out was that the 1Thess. 4 resurrection of the dead in Christ pertains to all saints, and not as pretrib stated to only a specific group of saints… Remember the olive tree analogy by Paul ISRAEL WAS THE NATURAL BRANCHES… but ISRAEL IS NOT THE TREE… The tree is Jesus as Jesus said “I am the true vine and ye are the branches… What does that mean? It means Israel was in the true vine before we were ever grafted in.. What does that mean? It means Israel was cut off from who because of their unbelief? They were cut off from Jesus which was the true vine .. so they were IN JESUS, or IN CHRIST , and so what happens when they repent and accept Jesus as their true Messiah ? They are again grafted BACK INTO THE SAME VINE THEY WERE CUT OFF FROM WHICH WAS JESUS.. As he said The kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruit… We can see it also when he said SOME of the branches were broken off.. What does that mean? It means some of believing Israel REMAINED TRUE TO JESUS, meaning they WERE ALREADY IN JESUS AND JUST REMAINED FAITHFUL TO HIM BY ACCEPTING HIM WHEN HE CAME IN THE FLESH… I was emphasizing the fact that the scriptures pre trib isolated as pertains to them pertain to all saints…

I think it was a typo..

Amen! Not Christ the first fruits plus some other saints, then afterwards those that are Christs at his coming… Paul’s statement on all will be changed at the same time at the last trumpet fixes every problem if it was just believed.. You can’t have ALL those that belong to Christ being changed at the same time and then have another group somewhere that was not included… There are no saints that don’t belong to Christ so if (All that belong to Christ) are all changed at the last trump then both the timing and who is being resurrected are all settled …the first phase would be Christ being raised , and the second phase is “Those who are Christs at his coming… not at his comings, not part of those who are Christs at his coming.. ALL WILL BE BE CHANGED AT HIS COMING!!

You meant no scriptures about Jesus taking those who are alive and remain taken to heaven, right?

The issue is right here...you define the church as PART of the saints...this is where you get multiple resurrections. The word 'church' is not a magic word that means people who followed God from Pentecost until before the tribulation...the church is the congregation or the assembly of saints...I could say the congregation or the assembly of saints is the church...it is used interchangeably in scripture...it has been pre trib, and not scripture, that has defined this word to mean ONLY specific people within the congregation of saints that served God from Pentecost to sometime before the tribulation...and even pre trib does not adhere to their own doctrine, in that Stephen called the congregation in the wilderness the church in the wilderness. This was before Pentecost and the word only means the congregation of Israel in the wilderness... But pre trib did not include the church in the wilderness to be resurrected in the pre trib rapture for the same reason they did not include tribulation saints who die in the Lord, although they claim the pre trib rapture is only for the dead in Christ. And what is that reason? Pre trib would cease to be pre trib...if they included the OT saints and the tribulation saints in the rapture it would OF NECESSITY place the rapture where it rightly belongs...at the second coming of the Lord..So pre trib like all other constructs that place the rapture before the second coming all end up having to disregard what Paul said...it is obvious that two raptures is not what Paul taught, it is obvious from what Paul taught all were to be changed at the same time, and it is obvious that all the saints were to be changed at the last trump. Jesus himself called the assembly of Israel BEFORE PENTECOST 'the church' by saying if your brother offends you were to take it before the CHURCH. This was before Pentecost...so why did not pre trib include Israel and the trib saints in the pre trib rapture / resurrection...? both Stephan and Jesus used the word church to refer to people outside of the pre trib confines, but pre trib does not go with how the scripture defines the word 'church' or it would cease to be pre trib. And if the 24 elders truly represent the Old and New Testament saints, they why doesn't pre trib stick with that? Because it could not possibly work, that is why...If the 24 elders truly were representing the old and new testament saints, then the tribulation saints would have been included in that representation just as much as saints who lived from Pentecost to before the tribulation...but what would that mean? It would mean the 24 elders CANNOT be representing ALL THE SAINTS Of both old and new testament BEFORE the seals are opened...Even Walvoord denies the 24 elders should be referred to as the old and new testament saints...but what are you saying? You are saying these 24 elders have their crowns on so that means not only the rapture had already took place, but it also means that ONLY A CERTAIN PART OF THE NEW TESTAMENT SAINTS WERE REPRESENTED AND NONE OF THE OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS...so you are not representing either group as you exclude the tribulation and OT saints from the rapture. And as was already said, just resurrecting the trib saints DOES NOT MEAN THEY GOT RAPTURED, even as Walvoord has said there is no rapture after the tribulation for anyone...so even Walvoord acknowledges there is a difference between being resurrected and caught up, or he wouldn't have said they got resurrected BUT NOT RAPTURED... And just because you add another rapture does not fix it as it then defaults on all being changed at the last trump and also at the same time. I believe the dead rise first and are caught up to heaven...that is the great voice of many people in heaven...how did they get there? They were resurrected and ascended up to heaven just like the two prophets...they stood on their feet and then they heard a voice saying come up hither and they ascended up to heaven in a cloud. But then you say 'he later returns FOR the alive that remained'...he does not come FOR them in the sense of TAKING THEM BACK UP TO HEAVEN...no he does not come FOR them, the living are caught up into the clouds where they MEET JESUS AND THE RESURRECTED SAINTS AS THEY ARE COMING DOWN TO THE MOUNT OF OLIVES...remember there is only one time that all the saints get glorified which is at the second coming so he is NOT BRINGING ANYONE BACK TO HEAVEN...NO NO NO...he is COMING DOWN FROM HEAVEN AND WILL BRING BOTH THE LIVING AND THE DEAD WITH HIM TO THE MT. OF OLIVES. This is where the error shows up with two raptures..all the saints have to get up there to heaven to come back...there is no scripture showing OT Israel, or the Trib saints going up to heaven as a separate group or groups...rather it shows God gathers his elect at the second coming and that is the elect...the elect or any portion thereof were not previously gathered...and how are they gathered? The dead are raised up to heaven at the second coming, then he gathers both groups, the dead and living to the clouds where the living meet the dead and then both groups descend down to the earth. I absolutely believe that...Israel does not get converted UNTIL the second coming...they see the nail prints in his hands...but they weep and mourn AFTER Jesus comes and they are delivered and then they see him on the earth...they were not included in the number that descended down from heaven for they were converted AFTER the resurrection had already occurred. There is only one rapture and Paul described it ...ALL are changed at the Last trump...not part changed at one time and part at another time...Paul did not contradict 1 Cor. 15. When Jesus was resurrected, he was RAISED in power...he had a glorified body while he walked on the earth..he could appear and disappear...but HE HAD NOT YET ASCENDED SO EQUATING BEING RESURRECTED WITH BEING RAISE IN POWER IS NOT THE SAME THING...the two prophets show this and also it is shown in Jesus..but you are acting as one MUST ascend up into the sky BEFORE or they are not glorified...which is absolutely false...1 Cor. is dealing with the resurrection ...Paul is talking about being RESURRECTED, NOT how people rise up to the sky...what is the context 'So Also is THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD...' he did not say 'So also is the catching up into the sky' And God said there is one harvest at the end of the age..both the wheat and the tares are harvested.. Jesus did not say let the wheat grow until seven years before the harvest and then let the barley be gathered...pre trib inserted that into the text, it is not in there God has one bride and she is defined as both the old and new testament saints and she descends down from heaven at one time There is no last trumpet at the feast of trumpets...the scripture shows no last trumpet at the feast of trumpets, and the Jews re-version of it does not contain a last trumpet either...the last trumpet is the last of the seven shown in scripture...the seventh one blows at the second coming when Jesus sets up his kingdom on earth...there is no other rapture before this. The dead rising first happens on the same day both groups are changed in a moment in a twinkle of an eye...the event in 1 Thess. 4 contains both the rising of the dead and then the living being caught away to meet them when they come down...all happens at the last trump...this is the day Paul was talking when he said 'the coming of the Lord AND our gathering (rapture) unto him...he said THAT DAY shall not come unless certain things happen first..but he was saying ONE DAY in which both the gathering and the coming of the Lord would occur...not two different days, not two different raptures, not two different brides, not two different groups of saints...