transmogrified

On 10/24/2023 at 7:04 AM, The Light said:

And you just can't get it. The gathering and second coming DO COME ON THE SAME DAY. It comes at the end of the age AT TJE 6TH SEAL...............BEFORE the wrath of God.

2 Thes 2

 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The coming of Jesus happens at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God. How do you ignore all the evidence that Christ comes BEFORE the day of the Lord.

The gathering and the second coming happens on the same day...according to the first thing you said...'The gathering and THE SECOND COMING do come ON THE SAME DAY...'

Then you say 'How do you ignore all the evidence that Christ comes BEFORE the day of the Lord?'

You are talking double...first you say the

1) The gathering (rapture / resurrection) 

and

2) The Second coming

Happens on the SAME DAY, which is 'the day of Christ.'

Then you say Christ comes (the Second Coming) BEFORE the 'day of the Lord.'

Jesus does not come again before the day of the Lord and also come again on the Day of the Lord. This is non sense!!!!!!!!!

Here you stated the last day is not the same day as the 6th seal...
 

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.HE COMES AT THE LAST TRUMP ON THE LAST DAY AND NOT BEFORE

Incorrect. Jesus comes for His Church before the seals are opened. Jesus then returns for the gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal, as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. We can see that in Matthew 24

 

You are here saying Jesus 'comes for his church' BEFORE the seals are opened, which is also BEFORE the last day, but in your first quote you said the gathering and the coming of the Lord happen on the same day...

IN NO SITUATION DOES YOUR PREMISE FIT WHAT PAUL SAID...PAUL DID NOT SAY:

I SHOW YOU A MYSTERY...PART OF US WILL BE CHANGED BEFORE THE LAST DAY AT THE FIRST SECOND COMING, BEFORE THE SEALS ARE OPENED, AND THEN THE REST OF US WILL BE CHANGED AFTER THE TRIBULATION AT THE OTHER LAST DAY AT THE LAST TRUMP  AT THE SECOND SECOND COMING...'

THIS IS ALL JIBBERISH AND DOUBLE TALK...IT ALL HAPPENS BECAUSE YOU PLACE THE RESURRECTION OF ALL THE SAINTS BEFORE THE LAST DAY...

YOU DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT PAUL SAID...IT IS NOT HARD TO UNDERSTAND

1) ALL WILL BE CHANGED....

2) ALL WILL BE CHANGED IN A MOMENT...

3) ALL WILL BE CHANGED IN A TWINKLING OF AN EYE...

4) ALL WILL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP..

5) WE WILL NOT ALL DIE...

BECAUSE YOU DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT PAUL SAID YOU ARE FORCED TO COME UP WITH MULTIPLE RESURRECTIONS, MULTIPLE SECOND COMINGS, MULTIPLE RAPTURES...MULTIPLE LAST DAYS...

THIS IS THE PLIGHT OF PRE TRIB...NO EXCEPTIONS...IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BELIEVE PAUL AND ALSO BELIEVE PRE TRIB...

IF WE OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN PREACH ANY OTHER GOSPEL THAN WHAT WE HAVE PREACHED UNTO YOU, LET HIM BE ACCURSED...

THIS IS SERIOUS...YOU ARE CHOOSING A PATH THAT IS CONTRARY TO WHAT PAUL PREACHED...IT DOESN'T MATTER IF AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN TOLD YOU DIFFERENT....IF IT IS DIFFERENT THAN WHAT PAUL PREACHED IS A PERVERSION OF THE GOSPEL....IT IS NOT ANOTHER GOSPEL...IT IS A PERVERSION OF THE TRUE GOSPEL...

ITS NOT HARD TO ACCEPT WHAT PAUL SAID...IT DOES NOT TAKE AN INTELLECTUAL GIANT TO PERCEIVE IT, BUT IT DOES TAKE FAITH

ALL YOUR EFFORTS HAVE BEEN TO SHOW THAT WHAT PAUL SAID IS NOT TRUE...YOU CANNOT HONESTLY SAY YOU BELIEVE ALL ARE CHANGED AT THE SAME TIME AND THEN CONTINUE TO SAY ALL WILL NOT BE CHANGED AT THE SAME TIME..

YOU CANNOT HONESTLY SAY YOU BELIEVE ALL WILL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP AND THEN CONTINUE TO SAY ALL WILL NOT BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP..

YOU HAVE PRESENTED NO SCENARIO IN WHICH ALL WILL BE CHANGED AT THE SAME TIME, IN A MOMENT, IN A TWINKLING OF AN EYE, AT THE LAST TRUMP...WHAT YOU ARE SAYING CANNOT FIT WHAT PAUL PREACHED, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE...

IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

There will be a day when the resurrection-and-rapture takes place, and there will be a Day of the Lord that will last more than 24 hours. Jesus may have meant either one.

Yes, determined by the context....totally agree we will reign with him for 1000 years and sometimes that is referred to as one day...no problem...the issue is context..when it says we will reign with christ for that 1000 years, it is NOT meaning we  will reign for only one day...but when it says we will be resurrected on that day, it does NOT mean we will be getting resurrected during that whole thousand years...NO! We get resurrected and changed in a moment in a twinkle of an eye, and in THIS CONTEXT it is referring to ONE SPECIFIC DAY CALLED THE DAY OF THE LORD...

We know the resurrection is not taking place during the thousand years, for ALL The saints are in glorified bodies during the entire time...no one else gets added to the list AT ALL DURING THAT TIME FOR ALL WERE ALREADY CHANGED WHEN HE CAME...!!!

17 hours ago, The Light said:

Ask any Rabbi what the last trump is, and you will get the same answer.

I have asked a Jew if he knew anything about a last trump...he had no clue...the practice of blowing the trumpet 100 times did not come into effect until Rabbi Abbhu instituted it in 3rd - 4th century...so the claim that people would relate to it during Paul's  day is bogus...in the Old testament there is nothing in the feast of trumpets that talks about a last trumpet..

In the Talmud era the tradition of the elders was to blow 9 times according to Wikipedia:

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The rabbis of the Talmud concluded that a shofar must be used for this blowing,[18] and that each teruah must be preceded and followed by a tekiah.[19] Since the word teruah appears three times in the Torah in connection with holidays of the seventh month, the rabbis concluded that a teruah must be blown three times,[20] making a total of nine blasts (three sets of tekiah-teruah-tekiah)

Then the tradition of the elders changed it to 30 times:
 

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In the Talmudic era, doubts arose regarding the correct sound of the teruah blast - whether it should be a series of short, lilting blasts similar to a person moaning (now known as shevarim), or else a staccato beat sound similar to a person whimpering (now known as teruah), or else a combination of the two sounds (shevarim-teruah).[24] Therefore, Rav Abbahu of Caesarea (3rd century CE), ruled that shofar blowing should be performed according to each of the three possibilities:

Three sets of tekiah, teruah, tekiah (in case what we call teruah is the correct sound of the Biblical teruah)

Three sets of tekiah, shevarim, tekiah (in case what we call shevarim is the correct sound of the Biblical teruah)

Three sets of tekiah, shevarim-teruah, tekiah (in case what we call shevarim-teruah is the correct sound of the Biblical teruah)

If tekiah, shevarim-teruah, tekiah is considered to be four blasts, then Rabbi Abbahu's requirement makes for a total of 30 blasts.

 

Another opinion was it should be blown 12 times:

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According to another opinion, Rabbi Abbahu instituted a total of 12 rather than 30 blasts, specifically tekiah, shevarim-teruah, tekiah repeated three times.

Then it went to 30, to 40, 42, or 60:

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The Talmud specifies that the shofar is blown on two occasions on Rosh Hashana: once while "sitting" (before the Mussaf prayer), and once while "standing" (during the Mussaf prayer).[28] This increases the number of blasts from the basic requirement of 30, to 40, 42, or 60, based on the above-mentioned opinions.

In Medieval  times it went to 100:

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The Arukh mentions a custom to blow 100 blasts: 30 before Mussaf, 30 during the Mussaf silent prayer, 30 during the cantor's loud repetition of Mussaf, and 10 more after Mussaf.[29][30] The final 10 blasts are by tradition dating to the Geonim, and in some communities are blown in the middle of "Kaddish Tiskabal.

And how did they come up with 100 times? Because of how many tears Sisera's  mother allegedly cried when her son died:

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The number 100 in the Arukh is intended to correspond to the tears which Sisera's mother is said to have shed when her son was killed in battle.

How did they come up with 101 letters instead of 100?  Of course they left out one tear because of recognition of the  pain suffered by any bereaved mother...of course...who could doubt that?

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The short Biblical story of Sisera's mother contains 101 letters;[33] while the Arukh only mentions 100 blasts. This discrepancy is explained by saying that while each shofar blast is intended to "nullify" one of her cries due to hatred of Israel, nevertheless we leave her one tear out of recognition of the pain suffered by any bereaved mother.

There was never any last trumpet identified in the scriptural description of the feast of trumpets, much less anything to be derived from Jewish fables.

Paul told the Thessalonian believers there were two things that had to happen before the day of the Lord would come...neither one of them was to keep an eye out for the 10th, 12th, 30th, 40th, 42nd, 60th, 100th, or 101th time the Jews blew their shofars....

HAD ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH JEWS BLOWING THEIR TRUMPETS...Jesus said

WHEN YOU SEE THE MAN OF SIN STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE THEN KNOW IT IS NEAR, EVEN AT THE DOORS...

Of course the real sign is downplayed by pre trib and made to pertain to the Jews themselves, or to those who alledgedly missed the rapture.

ANYTIME THE LAST TRUMPET REALLY SOUNDS, IT WILL NOT BE PART OF THE SAINTS BEING RESURRECTED...NOT AT ALL!! IT WILL BE ALL THE SAINTS BEING RESURRECTED AND THE LORD WILL COME ON THAT VERY DAY...!!!!!

17 hours ago, The Light said:

You also ignore that Israel was supposed to be the first harvest of the fig AT HER FIRST TIME. However, Israel served other Gods and they would not be the first harvest. The Gentiles will be the first harvest.

 

you are talking about the branches that were cut off...of course unbelieving Israel of all time will not be in the resurrection of the righteous...the righteous of Israel will be raised at the same time all the other believers will be resurrected...at the 7th trumpet...Daniel says 'AT THAT TIME (that the man of sin comes to his end) will the good and the bad be resurrected...that time is at the 7th trumpet...ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES WILL HEAR HIS VOICE...BOTH GOOD AND BAD AND COME FORTH...HE WON'T LEAVE ONE PERSON IN THE GRAVES...

So saying 'Gentiles will be the first harvest' is nonsense...it has nothing to do whether you are a Jew or a Gentile..all the righteous whether Jew or Gentile are all resurrected at the same time...

17 hours ago, The Light said:

You seem to ignore that the fullness of the Gentiles must come in before part of Israel can see that Jesus is the Messiah. 

The 144000 gets converted at the second coming...has nothing to do with the resurrection of the dead believers, whether Jew or Gentile...the hour comes when ALL that are in the graves will come forth...not some come forth at one time and some others at another time...at the 7th trumpet is the TIME OF THE DEAD...THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED...there is no resurrection of ANYONE before the 7th trumpet...when you say 'you seem to ignore that the fulness of the Gentiles must come in before part of Israel can see that Jesus is the Messiah,' is the same thing as saying 'blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in..'

Also has NOTHING TO DO WITH ALL BEING RESURRECTED AT THE LAST TRUMP ON THE LAST DAY

17 hours ago, The Light said:

You seem to ignore that the fullness of the Gentiles must come in before part of Israel can see that Jesus is the Messiah. 

Israel gets saved at the Second coming...they do not come down with the saints from heaven for they get converted BECAUSE Jesus comes down with all the saints and angels and delivers them...this has NOTHING to do with all being changed at the last trump ...IT DOES NOT DISANULL WHAT PAUL SAID...it is a diversion...Blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles be come in ...the fullness of the Gentiles is at the Second Coming...this is the same time Israel gets their eyes opened and repents and accepts Jesus...

THIS DOES NOT AFFECT THE RESURRECTION OF ALL BELIEVERS AT THE LAST DAY AT THE LAST TRUMP

17 hours ago, The Light said:

There is the last day when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. We of course see the harvest in Revelation 5

There is the last day of this age at the 6th seal when there is a gathering from heaven and earth. This is why after the 6th seal there is a great multitude.

Then there is a last day at the end of Gods wrath. There is a resurrection then also.

There is only one last day..the day Jesus resurrects all believers is that day...it is the day the 7th trumpet sounds...it does not spread out over different days and groups of people, as it is plain...WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP...NOT SOME CHANGED BEFORE THE LAST TRUMP, NOT SOME CHANGED AT ANOTHER DAY, NOT SOME RESURRECTED BUT NOT ASCENDED, NOT SOME NEVER CHANGED AT ALL...AND IT ALL HAPPENS IN A MOMENT IN A TWINKLE OF AN EYE...

JESUS COMES ON ONE SINGLE DAY, CALLED THE DAY OF THE LORD...THIS IS WHEN PAUL SAID BOTH HIS COMING AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM WOULD OCCUR...HE SAID 'WE BESEECH YOU BY THE COMING OF THE LORD AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM...HE THEN SAYS THAT DAY, IN WHICH BOTH THE RAPTURE AND THE COMING OF THE LORD WILL OCCUR, WILL NOT COME EXCEPT CERTAIN THINGS HAPPEN FIRST...

HE IS NOT POINTING TO TWO DIFFERENT DAYS, HE IS NOT POINTING TO TWO DIFFERENT GATHERINGS, HE IS NOT POINTING TO TWO DIFFERENT COMINGS, HE IS SAYING

THE COMING OF OUR LORD ....(SINGULAR)

AND OUR GATHERING UNTO HIM... (SINGULAR GATHERING, SINGULAR GROUP)

THAT DAY WILL NOT COME EXCEPT... (ONE SINGLE DAY)

YES ALL THE SCRIPTURES I AGREE WITH...YES, THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES WILL COME IN....

YES THERE IS A SIXTH SEAL...

YES THERE IS A RESURRECTION...

THE SCRIPTURES YOU GIVE DO NOT OVER RIDE  WHAT PAUL SAID...

THERE IS NO LAST TRUMP IN THE FEAST OF TRUMPETS IN THE SCRIPTURE

IF IT WAS THE LAST TRUMP, THEN ALL WOULD BE CHANGED IN A MOMENT IN A TWINKLE OF AN EYE...YOU DO NOT HAVE ALL BEING CHANGED IN A MOMENT, IN A TWINKLE OF AN EYE...YOU HAVE SOME OF GOD'S PEOPLE CHANGED AT ONE TIME, AND SOME OF GOD'S PEOPLE CHANGED AT ANOTHER TIME...IT WOULDN'T MATTER WHAT YOU CALL THE LAST TRUMP, YOU DO NOT FULFILL THE CRITERIA IN SCRIPTURE FOR WHAT HAPPENS AT THE LAST TRUMP

YOU HAVE TWO BRIDES ...GOD HAS ONE, CONSISTING OF BOTH OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT SAINTS...JACOB HAD TWO BRIDES...GOD HAS ONE

YOU ARE FORCED TO COME WITH TWO RESURRECTIONS BECAUSE OF WHERE YOU PLACE THE RAPTURE...THIS IS THE WHOLE KEY TO ALL THE MISFITS...IF THE RAPTURE IS PLACED ANYWHERE BEFORE THE LAST DAY IT WILL NOT WORK...ALL CANNOT BE CHANGED AT THE SAME TIME WHEN YOU DO THAT...!!!!!!!!!!!!

10 hours ago, WilliamL said:

And again, I say that your conclusion is not proven by this Greek text. Which text is at least equally as likely, and probably more likely, to be correctly read "in the last day." That "day" possibly being millennial, or possibly meaning the last day of the Christian Age, and most likely meaning the whole span of time in which God's End Times judgements take place, called "the Day of the Lord."

We are ALL CHANGED in a moment in a twinkling of an eye..at the last trump...it does not take 1000 years for an event to take place that happens TO ALL THE SAINTS, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump...an event that happens to all in a moment DOES NOT CONTINUE TO HAPPEN THROUGHOUT THE THOUSAND YEARS...HOW WOULD AN EVENT THAT HAPPENS TO ALL THE SAINTS IN A MOMENT, IN A TWINKLING OF EYE, CONTINUE TO HAPPEN THROUGHOUT THE THOUSANDS YEARS ...IT DOESN'T!!!

It happens on ONE SINGLE DAY, the LAST DAY...it is the last day of this age, and THEN the righteous begin their reign on the earth for the 1000 years...

On 10/20/2023 at 5:50 AM, FreeGrace said:

If you want to claim any kind of "exception" to what Scripture teaches, you'll have to prove it with Scripture.  Heb 9:27 says it is appointed ONCE for man to die, but we know that all unbelievers will be thrown into the "second death" after the GWT.  So they physically die twice. That's not an exception, because Heb 9:27 doesn't say ONLY die once".  If it did, then dying twice would be an exception.

Regarding exceptions, every human who came back to life before the singular resurrection of all believers at the Second Advent aren't exceptions either, because they did die again.  

I do not follow your thought here at all...I am not saying people who were raised from the dead before the second coming did not die again..

The resurrection I am talking about with the two witnesses is not any exception to the rule as they were partakers of the first resurrection in which all get glorified bodies and will never die again...they got glorified bodies because they were raised when the seventh angel sounded...that is the last trump in which all believers who have died will be resurrected into immortal bodies...

On 10/20/2023 at 5:50 AM, FreeGrace said:

On 10/20/2023 at 12:00 AM, transmogrified said:

...the seventh trumpet sounded when they went up and this is the time when all the saints are changed...we shall all be changed in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye.. THE DEAD ARE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE...THIS CORRUPTIBLE SHALL PUT ON INCORRUPTION, THIS MORTAL SHALL PUT ON IMMORTALITY...WHEN? AT THE LAST TRUMP...ALL ARE CHANGED INTO IMMORTAL BODIES...THE DEAD IN CHRIST...I.E. THE TWO WITNESESS AND ALL THE OTHER SAINTS WHO HAVE DIED WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE...

All this is about the Second Advent.

Exactly so.. The seventh trumpet sounded and then it said 'the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ...' THIS IS THE SECOND COMING!!! They were resurrected at the seventh trumpet...this is the last day that Jesus said all that believe would be raised...the two witnesses were believers, they died in Christ, the seventh trumpet sounded, they were raised to immortality, Jesus comes and sets up his kingdom...

On 10/20/2023 at 5:50 AM, FreeGrace said:

On 10/20/2023 at 12:00 AM, transmogrified said:

BEHOLD THE LORD COMETH AND ALL HIS SAINTS WITH HIM...ALL THE SAINTS ARE COMING BACK WITH HIM...THEY THAT ARE WITH HIM ARE CALLED AND CHOSEN AND FAITHFUL...THE BRIDE OF CHRIST DESCENDS DOWN FROM HEAVEN...HOW DID SHE GET UP THERE? THE DEAD IN CHRIST ROSE FIRST AND THEN THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN ARE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR...THEN ALL THE SAINTS DESCEND DOWN TO REIGN ON THE EARTH WITH CHRIST...

Second Advent

Exactly

On 10/20/2023 at 5:50 AM, FreeGrace said:

On 10/20/2023 at 12:00 AM, transmogrified said:

John heard a great voice of a multitude of people IN HEAVEN...this is when all the saints have just arrived...on the last day...on the day Jesus comes, all the dead in Christ will rise first...where do they rise to? They rise to heaven...this is the voice of all the people in heaven...they are getting ready to come back with Jesus on white horses and to fight at Armageddon...

Please show me the EXACT verse that SAYS "they rise to heaven".  What I read is they are gathered up to the clouds and are changed.  There is NOTHING in ANY verse about resurrected/changed believers being taken to heaven.

The bride descends down from heaven...she had to be up there to come down from heaven...the bride is not a building made up of stones and walls...SHE, the bride, SHE, the church, SHE the believers are REPRESENTED by a building, but of course we know God is not going to marry a building...that would be absurd...so it says SHE DESCENDS DOWN FROM HEAVEN...because SHE is the believers it would also be the same thing to say  'THE BELIEVERS descended down from heaven...it would also be correct to say the angel said to John, 'Come hither and I will show you THE BELIEVERS...and he then saw THE BELIEVERS descending down from heaven...and if you recall, the armies, which is also representative of the believers, are FOLLOWING Jesus down from heaven also meaning they were up there first...

When it says God will BRING THOSE THAT SLEEP IN JESUS WITH HIM what does he mean? Which way is Jesus going...is he coming up or he is going down? What does the scripture say?

     It says 'The Lord himself will DESCEND from heaven with a shout...and that in this DESCENT to the earth he will also BRING those that sleep in Jesus WITH HIM...So he is COMING DOWN, and he is BRINGING THE RESURRECTED SAINTS WITH HIM...realize what he is saying-  he is not bringing the resurrected saints TO HIM, but rather he is bringing the resurrected saints WITH HIM...and which way is Jesus going? He is not BRINGING SAINTS UP WITH HIM..why? Because he is COMING DOWN, NOT UP....in order for him to BRING saints UP WITH HIM ...he would have to first COME DOWN TO EARTH WHERE THE DEAD HAVE JUST BEEN RESURRECTED, and then GO BACK UP TO THE CLOUDS IN ORDER TO BRING THEM WITH HIM...BUT WAIT...HE IS NOT GOING UP...HE IS NEVER GOING UP...HE IS ALWAYS COMING DOWN...SO HE CAN NOT BRING THEM UP TO THE CLOUDS WHEN HE IS COMING DOWN...

So realize that God is coming down when he BRINGS those that sleep WITH HIM, which also means if he is bringing them that sleep DOWN WITH HIM, that they had to first go up to where he is, which is in heaven.

This is also manifest in the two scriptures that states 'The Lord my God shall come and all the saints WITH thee...' The same word WITH is used here...in other words the saints are coming WITH him (from heaven down) not TO him (from the earth up) Of course they first go up TO him from  the earth, but this is stated when it states the dead in Christ RISE first...this is when they GO UP to where the Lord is in heaven...but when he says he will BRING those that sleep in Jesus it is referring to when they come DOWN with Jesus to the earth...

It is also manifest in 1 Thess. 3:13 where it states 'at the COMING (not GOING) of our Lord Jesus WITH all his saints...'

The point is there is a difference between the saints going up TO him, versus the saints coming down WITH him...and the difference is in direction...he cannot COME WITH THEM if he is up in heaven drawing them to himself..they only way he can come WITH the saints is to acknowledge that Jesus is in heaven and then the saints COME DOWN WITH HIM TO THE EARTH...but in order for that to happen they all have to get up there, otherwise you get into the yo yo thing of pre trib where he makes an additional trip down to the clouds, then makes an additional trip up to heaven, and then finally he comes down after the tribulation...scripture only shows he descends down one time, he does not descend down to the clouds one time, then pick up some saints, then go back to heaven, then come down after the tribulation with part of the saints...NO...This is NOT WHAT SCRIPTURE TEACHES...!!!!

The two witnesses themselves are absolute proof that believers who die are resurrected and ascend up to heaven...

1) They were living human believers..

2) They were killed...

3) They were dead for 3.5 days..

4) The seventh angel sounded...

5) They were resurrected...

6)  They ascended up to heaven in a cloud...

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Please show me the EXACT verse that SAYS "they rise to heaven"

Rev. 11:12 "And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies beheld them.'

So lets see some more scriptures where the saints are up there in heaven...We have of course Rev. 19: 1 where there are much people in heaven...they were not born there...they had to get up there somehow...the way they got up there was that the 'dead in Christ rose first,' ...this does NOT mean they were resurrected first, for the living saints do not get resurrected so it does not mean they were resurrected before the living saints were...it means they 'ascended up first' before the living did...and remember the living do not go up to heaven to come down with the resurrected saints...rather the dead in Christ ascend up to heaven, then descend down to the clouds, where they living are then caught up to meet them as they descend down to the earth, but they are not caught up to heaven where Jesus was, they are caught up to meet the resurrected saints and the Lord in the clouds...it is then at this point they all the saints, both living and the resurrected saints descend down to the earth to reign with Christ.

So the scripture states in Rev. 19 that the bride was given fine linen clean and white at the time this great multitude of much people were in heaven...the angels also have fine linen clean and white..that is why it states the armies (plural) THAT WERE IN HEAVEN then FOLLOW Jesus down to Armageddon..

5 hours ago, WilliamL said:

So this passage is hardly one on which to base a definitive interpretation about the Last Day.

The context determines its usage… Jesus said all that God had given to him he would raise on the last day..

Of course all the saints that God gave to Christ would be all the saints from the Old and New testament which of course would include tribulation saints as all these die in the Lord and belong to him..

Because God gave all his saints to Christ it automatically places the resurrection on the last day because if it was before the tribulation was over they would not all have even died yet so the resurrection can not be before the last day.. Also we know the resurrection takes place at the last trump which does not sound till after the tribulation is over and also we know it is not a staged event where some get resurrected at one time and others at another time.. because Paul said we would all be changed in a moment in a twinkling of an eye..

This is also shown in the net parable.. The net was let down ONE TIME and it gathered OF EVERY KIND, BOTH GOOD AND BAD, then it was drawn to shore and they were separated..

Of course this does not fit pre trib because they have a net lowered at one time for some good fish, then they bring that in and lower it again for the other good fish that were not drawn up in the first lowering, then later they have a net for only bad fish..

All this is A COMPLETE MISFIT IN THE PRE TRIB WORLD  AND ANY CONSTRUCT THAT HAS MULTIPLE RESURRECTIONS STAGED FOR THE RIGHTEOUS..

Anytime the rapture / resurrection is placed before the last day IT IS INEVITABLE THAT SOMEONE IS LEFT OUT.. It is physically IMPOSSIBLE for all to be changed at the last trump IF the resurrection is placed chronologically ANYWHERE before the last day when Jesus actually returns..

In Preterism there as almost 2000 years of saints left out, in pre trib there would be about 7 years of saints left out, if it’s mid trib then there is 3.5 years of saints left out, if it is a pre wrath construct that happens even one day before the second coming there will be one days worth of saints that are left out…

Instead of cutting it closer and closer to the Second Coming- JUST CUT TO THE CHASE AND HAVE THE GATHERING AND THE SECOND COMING ON THE SAME DAY AS HAS BEEN WRITTEN IN THESSALONIANS FOR THE PAST SOME TWO THOUSAND YEARS!!!!

There is absolutely no problem in what Paul said about all being changed at the last trump … The problem is there a brick wall of unbelief … YOU HAVE THIS CHOICE… the fork in the road is “ All are changed at the last trump in a twinkling of an eye.. the other fork goes into the enchanted forest of different groups getting resurrected at different times.. one for Old Testament saints, one for the “church age saints” one for tribulation saints… Ect ect… 

And when I say UNBELIEF in this scripture IT IS ABSOLUTELY UNBELIEF… Pre trib cannot believe it  , mid trib cannot believe it , pre wrath cannot believe it, Preterism cannot believe it…

Its the miracle cure, given by revelation to Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, for the believers, and he said if anyone preached any other gospel than what he preached to let him be accursed…

ALL MEANS ALL… If all believers are changed at the same time then THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO ONE THAT DID NOT GET CHANGED… 

AND IF ALL ARE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP THEN NOBODY WAS CHANGED BEFORE THE LAST TRUMP

Every construct must fit the criteria set out by Paul.. if it fails at any point then it’s wrong..

For example Paul says all will be changed.. does pre trib believe that? No, they have living tribulation saints that go into the MK in natural bodies— ALL WERE NOT CHANGED…

Does pre trib believe all will be changed at the same time? NO THEY DO NOT.. “church age saints “ are changed before the tribulation “ Old Testament saints are changed AFTER the tribulation.. FALSE AGAIN!!!

And how do these errors occur? BY SIMPLY PLACING THE RESURRECTION AT ANY POINT BEFORE THE LAST DAY CHRONOLOGICALLY .. IT IS INEVITABLE, and happens in every construct…

 Run any construct you want through what Paul said and you will see the same errors  repeated over and over.

3 hours ago, The Light said:

THEN THE DAY OF THE LORD BEGINS, after the gathering from heaven and earth.

Paul said ALL WILL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP.. DANIELS PEOPLE NAMES ARE WRITTEN IN THE SAME BOOK OF LIFE AS MY NAME OR YOUR NAME.. ONE BODY.. ONE VINE.. TWO BRANCHES ON THE SAME TREE.. JESUS IS THE TRUE VINE- ISRAEL IS NOT A DIFFERENT TREE…… BELIEVERS IN THE OLD TESTAMENT SERVED THE SAME GOD I DO JN THE NEW TESTAMENT.. JESUS SAID WHOEVER DOES MY WILL THE SAME IS MY MOTHER, MY BROTHER…GOD GAVE ALL HIS SAINTS TO CHRIST.. JESUS SAID ALL THOSE THE FATHER GAVE ME I WILL RAISE ON THE LAST DAY.. NOT SOME OF THOSE GOD GAVE ME BEFORE THE LAST AND THE OTHERS HE GAVE ME ON THE LAST DAY

NO NO NO ALL ARE CHANGED AT THE SAME LAST TRUMP ON THE SAME LAST DAY AT THE SECOND COMING AND NOT BEFORE!!!

48 minutes ago, The Light said:

Ok. Now when is the last day?

The last is when Jesus resurrects all believers in a moment in a twinkle of an eye at the last trump.. THAT DAY- the last day wherein all are resurrected does not come until AFTER THE SUN AND MOON ARE DARKENED.. 

As it says THE SUN SHALL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON TURNED INTO BLOOD BEFORE THAT GREAT AND NOTABLE DAY, , THAT LAST DAY, THE DAY OF THE LORD COME..

The sixths seal takes place BEFORE THAT DAY COMES - 

NOT ON THAT DAY!!!!!!!!

14 hours ago, The Light said:

Please provide ONE scriptural proof that the righteous dead are raised ON THE LAST DAY.

ESV - On the last day

CSB - On the last day

BBE - On the last day

NASB 20- On the last day

NASB 95 - On the last day

LSB - On the last day

1 hour ago, The Light said:

Please provide ONE scriptural proof that the righteous dead are raised ON THE LAST DAY

John 6:39 - And  this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40- And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44- No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

John 6:54- Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The last day is that great and terrible day of the Lord.. It is called The day of Christ, it is called The day of judgement, it is called The great day of God Almighty, it is called the great day of his wrath…

It is the last day of this age.. it is the dividing day between “THIS AGE” and “ THE AGE WHICH IS to  COME” 

It is called “ The harvest” 

Paul said both the gathering together unto him (resurrection / rapture) and the coming of the Lord (Second Coming) happens on the same day.. That day is the LAST DAY when all the dead are raised and he gives rewards to the saints, the prophets, them that fear his name both small and great… no one is resurrected or rewarded before the last day…

11 hours ago, Renskedejonge said:

But the text says it's only the ones from the trib, so the first resurrection is in 2 or actually more stages, cause I forgot the 2 witnesses

There is no stages except Christ is the first that rose and afterward those that are Christs at his coming.. Do just those who are beheaded for Christ during the tribulation belong to him? NO OF COURSE  NOT…!!  All those that belonged to God were given to Christ so every saint from Adam to the second coming will be in the first resurrection.. That is why Paul said WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED IN A MOMENT INTGE TWINKLING OF AN EYE AT THE LAST TRUMP.. 

All means all- all does not mean just tribulation saints.. all does not just mean saints from Pentecost to before the tribulation.. all does not just mean Old Testament Saint.. ALL MEANS ALL THE DEAD SAINTS WILL BE RESURRECTED AND RISE TO HEAVEN AND THEN COME BACK WITH CHRIST TO RULE AND REIGN ON THE EARTH FOR 1000 YEARS!!!

On 10/20/2023 at 2:48 AM, Diaste said:

You need to look at what you say here:

"She ascended up when all the dead in Christ rose up to heaven at the second coming.."

"and they come down with Jesus at the second coming.."

Are they ascending and returning in the same moment?

No of course not...the rapture (our gathering together unto him) and the coming of the Lord (the second coming) both take place on the same day...not at the same exact moment...

Paul said we beseech you by the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto him that you be not soon shaken in mind neither by spirit nor by word, or by letter as from us, as that the DAY OF CHRIST is at hand...'

He then goes on to say that THAT DAY (the day in which both the rapture and the second coming take place) will not come unless there come a falling away first...

So what does this mean? It means that both the rapture (gathering together of the saints unto Jesus) and the second coming will both take place on one singular day called the day of the Lord...

So yes, she (the bride) ascends up (gets raptured) on one day (the day of the Lord) and then she (the saints) come down with Jesus on the same day at the second coming...

OF COURSE THEY DON'T GO UP AND COME DOWN AT THE SAME MOMENT...THAT IS RIDICULOUS...!!!

34 minutes ago, The Light said:

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

.HE COMES AT THE LAST TRUMP ON THE LAST DAY AND NOT BEFORE

Incorrect. Jesus comes for His Church before the seals are opened. Jesus then returns for the gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal, as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. We can see that in Matthew 24

You are confirming what was said...the sixth seal takes place on another day than the last day...this is exactly opposite of what Jesus said as he said 'all those that believe on the Son of God will be raised ON THE LAST DAY...notice he did not say:

'Some of those that believe will be raised BEFORE the last day, and some of those that believe will be raised ON the last day...' NO...NO...NO...NO...NO...he did not say what you are saying ...ABSOLUTELY FALSE!!!!

He also did not say 'all that believe will be raised BEFORE the last day...' NO...He said 'All that believe on the Son of God will be raised ON THE LAST DAY...'

Your quote is exactly opposite of what Jesus said...Jesus said all will be raised on the last day, and paul said at the last trump and you say:

Quote

INCORRECT..

When it is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!

29 minutes ago, The Light said:

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The point is THAT DAY (singular day) is when both the coming of the Lord and the rapture occurs..

Correct. At the sixth seal.

Except he does not come at the sixth seal...the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE (not at the same time) that great and notable day of the Lord come...

Rephrased...the sixth seal shall happen BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord come...

Rephrased...The great and notable day of the Lord happens AFTER the sixth seal, NOT at the same time of the sixth seal...the sixth seal happens BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD COMES...the Sixth seal and the day of the Lord are NOT THEREFORE THE SAME DAY...The sixth seal happens on one day, that day of the Lord happens on another day...NOT THE SAME DAY!!!!!

15 minutes ago, The Light said:

However, the coming of Jesus at the sixth seal

However there is no coming of Jesus at the sixth seal...he comes on the day of the Lord, not before the day of the Lord....

On 10/20/2023 at 2:17 AM, Diaste said:

A myriad is a thing, an indefinitely large group, not a number. It's sometimes used to represent a number in a strict sense but in abstract it's a large group, a thing. 

Almost every dictionary you will look at states that the word myriad is either a noun or an adjective depending on how it is used in a phrase...IT DOES NOT SAY MYRIAD IS EXCLUSIVELY A NOUN...ABSOLUTELY FALSE...

Quote

Myriad is a noun and an adjective. As a noun, it means either 10,000 precisely or a great number generally. As an adjective, it means great in number, countless, or innumerable.

Dictionary.com
 

Quote

 

noun

a very great or indefinitely great number of persons or things.

ten thousand.

adjective

of an indefinitely great number; innumerable: the myriad stars of a summer night.

having innumerable phases, aspects, variations, etc.:

 

Vocabulary.com
 

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noun

a large indefinite number

“he faced a myriad of details”

see more

noun

the cardinal number that is the product of ten and one thousand

synonyms: 10000, ten thousand

see more

adjective

too numerous to be counted

 

Your quote:

On 10/20/2023 at 2:17 AM, Diaste said:

A myriad is a thing, an indefinitely large group, not a number. It's sometimes used to represent a number in a strict sense but in abstract it's a large group, a thing. 

The lexicon and concordance show the part of speech for murias is a noun. This group isn't being counted, but is represented as uncountable. "Ten thousands" is not a definite number. 'ten thousand' would be. 'Ten thousands' is abstract hence, murias is a noun.

You state that murios is a noun BECAUSE it is not a definite number and is uncountable...the dictionary defines it in EXACTLY the opposite way...that it is an adjective BECAUSE it is uncountable.

Also the dictionary states that IF the number was a definite number it would be a noun...also EXACTLY the opposite of what you state...

On 10/20/2023 at 2:17 AM, Diaste said:

It's not the elect saints and cannot be. The elect saints are not even resurrected until Jesus arrives. 

Jesus had not yet arrived on the earth when the two witnesses were resurrected. You say they aren't even resurrected until Jesus arrives...in looking at the two witnesses the first thing that happened to them was that they were resurrected after laying in the street for 3.5 days...Jesus did not come down to the earth and then they were resurrected...they were laying in the street and what happened? They arose and stood on their feet...what happened then? The voice came from heaven saying 'come up hither...' Then what happened? They ascended up to heaven in a cloud...THIS IS WHAT IS MEANT BY THE DEAD RISING FIRST...THEY VISIBLY ROSE UP INTO HEAVEN...JESUS WAS NOT ON THE EARTH WHEN THEY ROSE...THEIR ENEMIES BEHELD THEM GOING UP...ARE THEY GOING UP WHEN JESUS HAS ALREADY SET FOOT ON THE MT. OF OLIVES?

ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!

Flesh out the scripture in 1 Thess. 4 even according to what you are saying..you say there is no resurrection until Jesus ARRIVES. If by arrival you mean he has set foot on the Mt. of Olives it will not work, or if by arrival you mean he comes down to the air but not on the earth it will still not work...

For example, if you believe Jesus comes to the air and then the resurrection takes place what do you have? You have the dead in Christ being resurrected and then they ASCEND UP FIRST...SO LISTEN TO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING...

If you believe the dead in Christ will truly rise up into the air then what have you got? You have the resurrected saints up in the air with Jesus and then the living go up to meet them...so then what happens? Are all these saints just going to stay up in the air and Jesus comes on down with just the angels to the earth...?

The only way all these saints that are up there in the air can  come down to the earth is that they must COME BACK WITH JESUS...THE VERY THING YOU REFUSE TO ADMIT. What happens to them? At some point all these saints that are up there have to come down to the earth...You admit Jesus is in the air and the saints are caught up to meet him, yet you deny that all these saints will come back with Jesus and it is impossible because they are not resurrected until he arrives. If you think this just means they are resurrected first, then why would the living be caught up to meet them IN THE AIR, if they are just resurrected and still on the ground? No...they are up in the air and the living are caught up to meet them.

No, it absolutely means they rise up into the air and then the living come back with them...but who are these that we are talking about? Are they angels? No of course not...they are saints of the most high God and in order for them to get down to the earth from being in the air, they ALL HAVE TO COME DOWN WITH JESUS DO THEY NOT?

And if by 'arrival to the earth' you mean he actually sets foot on the Mt. of Olives and then the dead are resurrected what do you have? The same impossible situation...i.e. if Jesus is over there at the Mt. of Olives and we are CAUGHT UP to meet him IN THE AIR, WHEN HE IS NOT IN THE AIR, BUT OVER ON THE MT. OF OLIVES, IT AGAIN MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE.

The saints would not be caught up into the air and the clouds, but rather they would be CAUGHT UP to meet Jesus ON THE MT. OF OLIVES...which is ridiculous for when he sets foot on the mt. of Olives the saints have already CAME WITH HIM, not that they have been TRANSPORTED OVER TO HIM...

6 hours ago, The Light said:

For sure.

This is where you need that logic to change your mind. Not only is the sun, moon darkened and the stars fall from heaven at the 6th seal, we also see the same thing when Jesus returns for the gathering. So your point about the 7th trumpet is incorrect as clearly seen in the following verses.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Additionally, in Isaiah 13 the same signs of the sun and moon when the day of the Lord comes just before wrath. This is also what happens a the 6th seal, Jesus comes just BEFORE WRATH.

Isaiah 13

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

It's probably time for you to realize that Jesus returns at the 6th seal for the gathering from heaven and earth before the wrath of God. When Jesus comes there is a harvest and there are dead raised. 

Daniel 12

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

All of the above scriptures are absolutely true and I believe every one of them.

These scriptures are also true and I believe every one of these:
 

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Acts 2:20

"The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord come."

Joel 2:31

"The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord come:"

 

It follows that if these events must take place BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD COME, then the day that these events take place IS NOT THE SAME DAY AS THE DAY OF THE LORD...

Isaiah is true...Matthew is true...Daniel is true...Acts 2:20 is true...Joel 2:31 is true...

Acts 2:20 does not disanull anything about what will happen at the sixth seal...Joel 2:31 does not disanull anything about what will happen at the sixth seal...

THE SUN TURNING INTO DARKNESS IS AN EVENT...THE MOON TURNING INTO BLOOD IS AN EVENT...

THE SUN TURNING TO DARKNESS IS AN EVENT, BUT THE SUN TURNING INTO DARKNESS IS NOT THE RAPTURE...IT IS THE SUN TURNING INTO DARKNESS...

THE MOON TURNING TO BLOOD IS AN EVENT, BUT THE MOON TURNING INTO BLOOD IS NOT THE SECOND COMING...THE SECOND COMING IS THE SECOND COMING...THE MOON TURNING INTO BLOOD IS THE MOON TURNING INTO BLOOD...THEY ARE NOT THE SAME EVENT...THE SUN BEING DARKENED AND THE MOON TURNED INTO BLOOD HAPPENS BEFORE THE SECOND COMING / RAPTURE...THE EVENT THAT HAPPENS BEFORE THE OTHER EVENT IS NOT THE SAME EVENT...AND ALSO DOES NOT HAPPEN ON THE SAME DAY

6 hours ago, Renskedejonge said:

They get up there before the rapture. What's called the first resurrection is only the ones killed in the trib, so the rest must have been raised already.

Resurrection does not mean ascension into heaven...the two witnesses were killed and lay in the street for 3.5 days...they were RESURRECTED, and stood upon their feet...guess what? Resurrection did not mean they were also ascended up into heaven...it was not till they heard the voice saying 'come up hither, that they ascended up to heaven in a cloud... This is called the rapture and its detailed out in a similar description in 1 Thess. 4...all are changed...meaning all, both dead and living saints receive their glorified body...that is the CHANGE into immortality...it does not also mean ASCENDED up to heaven...so all are changed, but then the DEAD IN CHRIST rise first...this does not mean the were resurrected FIRST, for the living are not dead, therefore they are not resurrected at all...so it means the dead in Christ RISE FIRST UP INTO HEAVEN...those who are alive and remain are not caught up into heaven AT THE SAME TIME THE DEAD RISE UP...that is what is meant by the dead in Christ will rise first...AFTER they have ascended up into heaven, they then COME BACK with Jesus with all those who sleep in Jesus, or in other words, with all the saints who have been resurrected from all time, from Adam until the second coming, and then THE LIVING rise up to meet the Lord and those who sleep in Jesus in the air and then all the saints descend downward to the earth to live and reign with Christ for the 1000 years...

SO THEY 'DON'T GET UP THERE BEFORE THE RAPTURE...' the two witnesses had died and yet their bodies were still lying in the street for 3.5 days...so their BODY was not 'UP THERE' until they ascended up to heaven in a cloud...

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What's called the first resurrection is only the ones killed in the trib,

The scripture showing those killed by the beast lived and reigned with Christ is absolutely true, however they are not the only ones who live and reign with Christ for the 1000 years, nor were they the only ones who were resurrected as Paul says 'I show you a mystery....we shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed...this does not mean just the tribulation saints get changed...it does not just mean the 'church age' saints get changed...(which is a misnomer...as the 'church age' is an artificial man made distinction made to apply only to those who lived and died from Pentecost to before the tribulation...which is false as the church just means the congregation of the Lord, which has been from Adam and forward...)

It does not mean just the OT saints gets changed...it means ALL THE SAINTS from all time are changed at the last and seventh trumpet...not before and not after...

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so the rest must have been raised already.

You don't go by assumptions...the rest must have been raised already is absolutely false...ALL are changed at one time, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye..at the last trump..not some here, some at another time...NO NO NO!!!

ALL ARE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP which does not happen until AFTER the tribulation when Jesus comes...and NOT BEFORE!!!

5 hours ago, The Light said:

Not only is the sun, moon darkened and the stars fall from heaven at the 6th seal, we also see the same thing when Jesus returns for the gathering. 

Yes immediately after the tribulation the sun  is darkened- It’s the sixth seal but all this happens BEFORE THAT GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COMES.. 

Paul said THAT DAY ( of both the coming of the Lord - Second Coming- AND our gathering together unto him (the Rapture) will not come except the falling away and the man of sin be revealed..

The point is THAT DAY (singular day) is when both the coming of the Lord and the rapture occurs.. The rapture and second coming happens ON THE DAY OF THE LORD.. And the sun and moon are darkened BEFORE THAT DAY COMES… 

THE SUN AND MOLN BEING DARKENED BEFORE THAT DAY COMES MEANS THESE EVENTS MUST TAKE  PLACE BEFORE THAT DAY COMES .. SO IF IT HAS TO TAKE PLACE BEFORE THAT DAY COMES IT DOES NOT MEAN THE EVENTS THAT HAPPEN BEFORE THE RAPTURE AND SECOND COMING ARE IN FACT THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND COMING..HE COMES AT THE LAST TRUMP ON THE LAST DAY AND NOT BEFORE

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

Both of them were taken to heaven without resurrection.  And they will do it again.

Absolutely false.. They were dead in the street for 3.5 days- AND THEY WERE RESURRECTED AND STOOD UPON THEIR FEET AT THE 7the trumpet…This is the resurrection of those that belong to him at the last day, at the 7th trumpet, at the end of this age, when all the saints get their rewards and they are raised in incorruption - and the those who are alive and remain  are changed at this exact time 

As Paul said- WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP.. AND IT DOES NOT SAY “And only the two witnesses will be changed at the last trump.. NO - THE TRUMPET WILL SOUND.. (And it did- “And the seventh angel sounded”) and the dead will be raised INCORRUPTIBLE .. NOT IN CORRUPTION TO DIE AGAIN.. ABSOLUTELY FALSE!!

The two witness will be returning the very same day they ascended and are part of the “much people in heaven” who will ALL COLLECTIVELY BE RETURNING WITH JESUS.. AS HE SAID- THE LORD MY GOD WILL COME AND ALL THE SAINTS WITH THEE..” 

This includes the two witnesses, Noah, Abraham, Peter Paul and Mary and the saints who lived from Pentecost and the tribulation saints as well - They are ALL the saints of the most high

All that are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth… All the former saints have died and all will come forth at the last trumpet.. 

this is when he gives rewards to his servants the prophets, the saints and to them that fear his name…

On 10/18/2023 at 11:21 PM, The Light said:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The sun shall be darkened and the moon turned into blood BEFORE that great and notable day of the Lord will come...the sun and moon are darkened at the sixth seal for sure, but that is what happens BEFORE the day of the Lord comes....the coming of the Lord and our gathering together unto him happens on the Day of the Lord...which is the last day...which is when the 7th trumpet sounds, which is when all are changed and resurrected and not before the Day of the Lord...