John n Claudia

Diaste, I know that what I have said is very radical. It paints a much bleaker picture of what will happen during the last years and has multiple levels of deception built into it. As I said to begin this thread, I was encouraged to question every assumption and along the way I have killed many "sacred cows", the biggest of which was the return of Jesus at Armageddon. Because this is so radical, it would be foolish of me to expect anything but opposition. I am not asking anyone to take my word for it that this is what will happen. Instead, I am asking people if they would also examine the Word with me and show me how Jesus returning at the Battle of Armageddon is compatible with a post-tribulation rapture given that Jesus is coming as a thief when the unbelievers do not expect him but that battle is exactly the time that all unbelievers do expect Him to return. To me, this is a logical impossibility, so I have to reject one of the two premises. I presented this question to several strong Christians who I greatly respect and their response was to end the relationship because they had no answer, but could not accept that Jesus would not return at Armageddon. As far as I am aware, I am the only person who is even asking this question and everyone else, Christian or not just knows that this is the time when Jesus returns. This is also why I just ask that people reading this now remember it when crazy events do start happening in the future. If they allow for the possibility that things are not what they appear to be, and this is accurate, it is possible that they will not be deceived. Agreed, besides there are still several years before the Great Tribulation will start and we can always mark the calendar for the countdown when the abomination occurs and see which interpretation is correct. We had already talked about the multiple definitions of "cut short" and I already stated my position that it was cut short by eliminating the seven thunders from the agenda. Besides, it does not really matter if the Great Tribulation lasts 1260 days, 1259 days or even just 123 days. What matters is that the events as described in the Bible occur as prophesied and those days are worse than any that the Jews or the Church has previously experienced so that we can be refined through the fire and become worthy of our Savior and Lord. As I mentioned above, we can put off the determination of which definition of "cut off" is correct until the Abomination occurs and we start the countdown. You're clearly joking. Unfortunately I am not. I believe all of this is described in the Bible and I have passages throughout the Old and New Testaments that support this scenario. All scriptural evidence to the contrary. My scriptural evidence comes from taking the numbers given in Daniel together with the killing of the two witnesses whose bodies were left in the streets for 3.5 days. I really would like to change my opinion on this. Other than the "cut off" scripture mentioned above, can you point me to scriptures that show this is wrong? Dude, the peace and safety thing isn't a collective event like a sit-in where the whole world declares "We are now safe and at peace." It's a call for a condition, not a statement of achievement. No where does scripture intimate there is ever peace. In fact the opposite is true especially at the end of the age. "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,g but only the Father." So that shuts down your idea we know the day. I have checked multiple versions of the Bible including CJB, GNV, AMP, KJV, AKJV, ESV, GNT, TLB, NIV and others. Every translation uses the present tense with regard to peace and safety and "when the people are" and "while the people are" are the most common tense designators. Just because we do not like what the Scriptures say or it does not fit in with what we believe will happen does not give us the license to change it. Which translation do you use that shows this to be a call for peace in the future rather than a celebration of peace in the present? I very much agree that this is my opinion and I stated as much in the post that started this thread when I asked if anyone could show me an argument that allows Jesus to return as a thief at the Battle of Armageddon when everybody is expecting Him. If anyone can provide that argument and show me scripture I would be very grateful because I do not want to believe that things will get as bad as the picture I have painted.

abcdef, Can you clarify the difference between a "coming" and a "resurrection coming" and give scripture to support this difference?

iamlamad, Right now there are not very many people who are saying that the earth is peaceful, so if this is a requirement for Jesus' return, it cannot happen right now. I also did not say that it will get better after the Day of the Lord has started. In fact once that day gets here, there will be even less peace than there is now. What I said is that after the Battle of Armageddon and after the empire of the Antichrist has killed the two witnesses, the empire will be very happy. They have defeated all of their external and internal enemies and will celebrate by sending gifts to each other. They will look back at the previous seven years and breathe a collective sigh of relief because they believe that all the troubles they encountered during those years is now behind them and they have a glorious 1000 year kingdom to look forward to. This is when they are feeling peaceful and this is the Day of the Lord when Christ will return. I do not think that John ever tells us what causes the days of the Great Tribulation. As far as I can tell, John only tells us what will happen, not the reason that those things will happen. For example, John tells us that with the first bowl, the citizens of the beast empire will be afflicted with boils, but he does not tell us why they are afflicted. It might be because the chose to worship the beast rather than God. It might be because they have been persecuting the Jews. There are many reasons this could happen, but we are not told the cause, so any guess on our part is just speculation. One thing that I have learned is that I must be careful with my terms. Under most definitions, the beast is the empire and the person who is the emperor of the beast is the Antichrist. It is the Antichrist, the leader, who will be revealed at the abomination, not the empire. I have had to correct my understanding of the last days multiple times because I got sloppy with my terminology and this confused my thinking. After I became consistent with my terms and definitions, things became much more clear. I thought that everyone, regardless of their pre, mid or post-tribulation position believed that the Wrath of God started with the return of Jesus to punish His enemies. If this is true, then the Wrath of God cannot possibly start until after Revelation 16:12 where Jesus tells us that His coming is still in the future. In addition to the confusion caused by conflating the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God, I have found that a lot of confusion regarding the last days is caused by the belief that the events described in Revelation are going to occur chronologically in the same order that they are listed in the book. That is the events of chapter 6 precede the events of chapter 7 which precede the events of chapter 8. There are multiple problems with this approach, the biggest one being that doing this requires much more time than the 3.5 or 7 years that are allotted to the last few years before Jesus returns. After all, the locusts in chapter 9 take 5 months, the witnesses in chapter 11 take 42 months, the woman in chapter 12 spends another 42 months in the desert, and the mouth of the beast in chapter 13 speaks blasphemies for another 42 months. These events by themselves take up nearly 11 years and do not leave any time for the other trumpets or any of the bowls. Adding in all the time required for 1/3 of the forests to burn, 1/3 of the seas to turn to blood, the Euphrates to dry up, the king of the east to march out with a 200 Million person army and all of the other listed events, we have to be talking about 20 or 30 years. Adding in the events described in Daniel chapter 11 and the wars with the kings of the north, south and east, will extend the timeline even further and all of this still does not explain why the people will be saying there is peace when Jesus does return. The Book of Revelation is a prophetical book, not a historical book. Historical books are written chronologically, but prophetical books are not. We can see this more easily in Ezekiel where chapter 36 tells us what will happen at the end of the Great Tribulation and the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom, chapter 37 tells us about the return of the Jews to the Holy Land in 1948, chapter 38 tells us what will happen at the end of the Millennial Kingdom and chapter 39 returns to the end of the Great Tribulation and the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom. The visions given to Ezekiel bounce back and forth between different time periods, so there is precedence to believe that the visions in Revelation also bounce back and forth. You will never be able to make sense of the events in Revelation and you will encounter contradiction after contradiction with any interpretation until you are able to see that the events between chapters 8 and 16 cannot possibly occur chronologically.

BeauJangles, You are very correct that nobody can be 100% certain of what will happen. However, this does not mean that we are to ignore the scriptures. The Berean's were commended for their study and all Christians are called to study the scriptures so that they can know the Lord. When I study, I always ask the Holy Spirit for guidance and every time I find any scripture that contradicts my current beliefs, I examine everything I believe in order to find out where I misinterpreted scripture and what I need to change in order to make sure that i have a correct theology and picture of what will happen during the last days. What surprise is this? The point of my post was to say that the post-tribulation theory has a problem if Jesus returns at the Battle of Armageddon, but the pre-tribulation theory does not. The surprise in question here is the rapture of the Church. Because the Bible says that the unbelievers will be surprised when Jesus returns. Therefore if I want to know when Jesus will NOT return, I simply need to ask them when they think He will return. No. Wait a minute. No one can do too much searching of scriptures. That's all time first. If you read what I actually wrote, I was using a colloquial expression to say that I personally believe in a post-tribulation rapture, not that I spend to much time in the scriptures.

iamlamad, I am very happy that you personally have the peace of God and I pray that this continues for you. However, there are riots taking place all over the United States. A quick review of the news regarding Atlanta, Portland, Seattle, Chicago, New York and many other cities will very quickly show that the second seal has been opened and peace has been taken away from the world. There may not be an active military war between the United States and another country, but there are many hot spots around the world, including Iran and China. I think that you would be hard pressed to find even 5% of the population of the United States saying that they are feeling peaceful or that they are living in a period of safety, let alone the vast majority as 1 Thessalonians 5:3 indicates. This is exactly correct. Now we need to ask ourselves when the two witnesses were raised. Chapter 11 starts by saying that there are 42 months where the Gentiles will trample the Holy City. These are the last 42 months of the Great Tribulation and Revelation 11:3 tells us the two witnesses testify throughout the entire 42 months. This means that they are killed at the end of the great tribulation and Revelation 11:11 tells us that they are raised up and raptured 3.5 days later. The sudden destruction occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation, not 3.5 years before the Great Tribulation even starts. Again, you are very correct. We are told that this earthquake occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation and from your previous comment, we see that this is also the time when the rapture occurs. It seems like we are agreeing that the rapture occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation. Once again you are very correct. The first time we see an earthquake in the Book of Revelation is with the sixth seal and immediately after that, we see the Jews sealed and the church raptured and the start of the wrath of God. This means that the rapture takes place at the end of the Great Tribulation, not seven years earlier. I know from conversations with other people that a big cause for their confusion regarding the timing of the rapture is that they are confusing the Great Tribulation with the Wrath of God. These are two different things and we can see this if we give the Great Tribulation the name it was first given in the Bible; the time of Jacob's trouble. In other words, the Great Tribulation is the time period during which the Jews are being persecuted. This cannot possibly also be the time of the Wrath of God because the Wrath of God is the time period during which God rescues His people (the Jews) in order to set up the Millennial Kingdom so they can rule for 1000 years. God is punishing the enemies of the Jews during the Wrath of God, not the Jews themselves. This is also why God seals the 144,000 Jews before rapturing the Church. The Church will no longer be living on the earth, so they will not experience the Wrath of God. The Jews however will be staying on the earth and therefore they need to be protected from all the carnage that will occur during this time.

Iamlamd, I agree with what you said about the pre-tribulation theory. I also pointed out, in the post that started this thread, that the post-tribulation theory has a problem because Jesus coming at the Battle of Armageddon negates the idea that nobody will know the day nor hour. This is exactly why I have had to reject the idea that Jesus comes at the Battle of Armageddon. There is just to much scriptural evidence that He comes at the end of the Great Tribulation and every pre-tribulation argument I have seen has fatal flaws. Again, please read my post where I outline the events of the last days that fulfills 1 Thessalonians 5:1 - 4. Then tell me how a pre-tribulation theory can work. In other words, why will people be saying that there is peace. I would like to understand how there will be peace in either of the following two situations: Right before the pre-tribulation rapture with all the trouble that is occurring and will continue to occur with the rise of China trying to battle the United States as a superpower, COVID-19, the George Floyd protests, the California forest fires and whatever it is that is coming next. Right before the Battle of Armageddon when armies of the world, including a 200 Million person army from the king of the east, are gathering to fight the battle to end the world.

Iamlamad, Please read my last post where I outlined the events on the earth preceding the rapture. After the rapture and the church has helped deliver the Wrath of God on an unrepentant world, Jesus and the raptured saints all go up to New Jerusalem. It is there that the marriage and supper takes place. One thing that many people do not understand is that while the Church will rule and reign with Christ, we will not be doing this on the earth. The promise to rule and reign on the earth was made to the Jews, not the Church. After the Wrath of God is finished and the Millennial Kingdom set up, the Jews, led by the prince in Ezekiel will rule and reign on the earth while the Church rules and reigns up in the houses that Jesus went to prepare for us 2000 years ago. Paul tells us that the promises made to the Church are much, much better than the promises made to the Jews. I would rather believe what the Bible says will happen and not try to take over a promise that was made to someone else and which is inferior to the promise made to me.

I suppose that's possible. But Jesus did say, "And except those days were cut short there would be no flesh saved, but for the elects sake those days are cut short." Speaking of the days of GT. So the last of the week runs its course but the trial by fire at the hand of Satan is ended before the end of the week. Diaste, Cutting short could mean either that the number of days was reduced or the activities that would occur during those days was reduced. For example, I have been in many meetings and conferences that were running long and were "cut short" by eliminating elements that were on the agenda so that it could finish as per the original schedule. I believe the days were cut short by the removal of what the seven thunders said, not by the removal of days from what was prophesied in Daniel. I also believe that the week runs its full course and the trial by fire at the hand of Satan continues all the way until the end. In my scenario, the empire of the Antichrist has already defeated the kings of the north and south and heads out to battle China, the king of the east with its 200 Million person army at the Battle of Armageddon. Religious institutions all around the world are declaring the Antichrist is Isa/Jesus of the Muslim/Christian religions who will defeat all his enemies and establish the Millennial Kingdom. Both sides of the battle are controlled by Satan and he will use this battle to convince the world that the Antichrist is the Isa/Jesus when he defeats his last enemy in order to start a 1000 year reign. The Jews and faithful Christians who have not been killed within the empire of the Antichrist were already in concentration camps awaiting their death and those outside his empire are subject to ridicule, scorn and all types of persecution. After the Antichrist defeats the Chinese by calling down fire from heaven, his secret police round up the few Jews and true Christians who are left, killing them and leaving their bodies rotting in the streets. Outside the empire of the Antichrist, in the Americas and elsewhere, only the truly elect realize that this is exactly what was prophesied. Everyone else will believe that since the Antichrist won at Armageddon, he must be Isa/Jesus and they fall down to worship him as God. With this much pressure to conform by the rest of the world, the trial by fire continues all the way until Jesus returns 3.5 days after the bodies are left in the streets and the rapture happens. But it is only those who endure all the way to the end who are saved and raptured. I believe that there will be a seven year period where the Antichrist is active on the Earth. The first 3.5 years minus 30 days (exactly), the Antichrist will be building up his empire. At the abomination, 1290 actual days before the return of the real Jesus, he will conquer Jerusalem and religious leaders will declare that he is the Isa/Jesus mentioned in my scenario above. It takes 30 days to establish the concentration camps and transport the captured Jews and Christians who do not accept the Antichrist as God to these camps where they endure the Great Tribulation for the next 1260 actual days. These days come directly from Daniel. The last of the people in the camps are slaughtered 1256.5 days later, 3.5 days before the real Jesus returns as per Revelation 11:11. Then after the final 3.5 days, the two witnesses, the Jews and Christians in these concentration camps stand up and are raptured followed by the rest of the Church who remained faithful to the God of Heaven. There is no need to change the number of days in Daniel. When we see Jerusalem compassed by armies, we will know that the abomination is about to occur and there are only 3.5 years left before Jesus returns. I believe that once we see the abomination we will be able to start a calendar counting down the exact number of days. We will not know at what time that day Jesus will return, but we ill know the day. This day will then be confirmed when we see the dead bodies lying in Jerusalem and we will know that there are only 3.5 more days that we have to endure. 1 Thessalonians 5:2 is often used to support a pre-tribulation rapture. The Holy Spirit showed me that this actually shows that we will know the exact day because we are not supposed to stop this passage at verse 2. 1But you have no need to have anything written to you, brothers, about the times and dates when this will happen; 2because you yourselves well know that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3When people are saying, “Everything is so peaceful and secure,” then destruction will suddenly come upon them, the way labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there is no way they will escape. 4But you, brothers, are not in the dark, so that the Day should take you by surprise like a thief; (1 Thessalonians 5:1 – 4, CJB) This passage is talking about the exact timing of when Jesus is going to return. Verse 3 tells us "people are saying that everything is peaceful and secure". If Jesus is going to return at the Battle of Armageddon and people all around the world are seeing armies gathering in the plains of Megiddo, they would not be saying that everything is peaceful and secure. Under my scenario however, the Battle of Armageddon is in the past so the antichrist has defeated all of the external enemies to his empire. The two witnesses in the concentration camps were just killed 3.5 days earlier so the antichrist has defeated all of the internal enemies to his empire. There is celebration throughout the land because the wars to unify the empire and then defend it from the kings of the north, south and east have finally finished. There has also been massive forest fires, water turning to blood killing fish and disrupting shipping, a pandemic where sores broke out throughout the empire. Seven years years of extreme trouble have finally come to an end and everyone is looking forward to a bright future where they are the preeminent nation ruling the world for the next 1000 years. They are celebrating and giving gifts to each other (Revelation 11:10). It is at this point that Jesus finally returns and only the elect who have remained faithful until the end will have seen this coming and be saved. Everyone else will be surprised, but Jesus comes as a thief when nobody but those who will remain faithful are expecting him.

This was true at the time John had his vision and wrote the prophecy. Over 1900 years have passed since then and the other heads have also now had their day of prominence and passed away.

Luigi, At the time that John had his visions, five of the empires had come and gone. One was currently active (Rome), and one was still to come (The Ottoman Empire). All seven of these empires are now in our past and the only thing left is for the last empire to be resurrected so that it can bring about the Great Tribulation. The ten horns on the beast with seven heads indicate that ten countries will come together in order to resurrect the Ottoman Empire as an Islamic Caliphate. The horn that was broken and replaced by four smaller horn is a reference the the Grecian empire under Alexander the Great and his four generals. Currently the beast does not exists, but it will reappear when we see the Islamic Caliphate forming.

This is not any different than what happened in the days of King David and his mighty men. God will bless and protect the Israelites and they will do mighty deeds, but they will still be mortal humans. They will not be able to perform any the supernatural deeds that Jesus or the glorified members of the raptured church will be able to do.

Luigi, The remnant in Micah 5:7 - 8 do not have miraculous abilities. Micah 5:1 - Jesus will be born in Bethlehem 5:2 - Israel will be scattered among the nations until the Lord brings them back in May 1948. 5:3 - Israel will be protected by God starting in May 1948 5:4 - Assyria will rise up against Israel with seven shepherds and eight leaders 5:5 - Assyria will defeat Israel and bring about the Great Tribulation. Jesus will then return to rescue Israel. 5:6 - 8 - Israel will rule over their enemies on the earth. This passage does not say that the Israelis will have any special abilities. They will not be able to float in the air or walk through walls like Jesus was able to do after He received His glorified body. This is just saying that Israel will be the ruling nation on the Earth and the other nations will fear them.

Luigi, You mentioned that the kingdom will be awarded to the saints with the Lord commencing to reign on the earth. This is a common misconception that is caused by a confusion of the promises made to the Jews and the promises made to the Church. It is true that both the Jews and the Church will reign and it is also true that the Jews will reign on the earth. However the Bible only says that the Church will reign with Christ. It never says that the Church will reign on the earth. This is a big part of the deception that has gripped the world regarding what is going to happen when Jesus returns. When Jesus returns, he is going to save the Jews and create a kingdom for them here on the earth. They will be living in the same earth that we have today in the same bodies that they have today. It is probable that Jesus will have to do something to clean up the atmosphere that we have messed up with Climate Change, but other than that, it will be the same earth. Additionally, the Jews will have a leader called the Prince in Ezekiel who will rule them. This prince will make sin offerings for himself and will also have children, so we know that this could not possibly be Jesus. In contrast to this promise made to the Jews, we have a different promise that was made to the Church that is infinitely better. The church will be receiving glorified bodies and Jesus has been preparing homes for them in the city of New Jerusalem where they will live after they have helped Him with the Wrath of God. Because they have glorified bodies, they will no longer die and because they had faith in Jesus, they will not be part of the Great White Throne judgement. Given a choice between the two promises, I would much rather have the promise made to the Church. I do not want to rule on the earth in a mortal body when I could instead be ruling with Christ in a glorified body, waling among the stones of fire and exploring planets, suns and black holes scattered throughout all of the various galaxies that God created. I might even stop by to visit Voyager on my way to some far flung supernova.

As I said last time, I personally believe that all of the prophesies in the Bible will be fulfilled exactly as the prophets wrote them and exactly as God meant them to be fulfilled. If you are just going to insult the children of Abraham, give reasons why you think the prophesies in Daniel will not be fulfilled and claim that the Bible is wrong, there is no point in continuing this conversation. I wish you all the best.

Luigi, I see that you are really trying to understand what the Bible actually says as opposed to what people have been taught for many, many years. Before you can really understand what is happening here, you must understand that the rapture is a physical rapture and it happens at the end of the Great Tribulation. I know that this is a difficult thing to accept and I struggled with it myself for a long time before God opened my eyes to what Scripture actually said. Unfortunately, without us first having this common understanding regarding the timing and nature of the return of Jesus and rapture of the Church, any explanation I give will be more confusing than helpful for you. I was told a long time ago to examine all of my assumptions regarding the last days and I would like to pass that advice on to you. I am more than happy to chat with you and explain things in more depth, but doing so in a forum like this does not allow for the immediate feedback that is required for this type of endeavor.

Without a king of the south, the prophecies in Daniel chapter 11 cannot come to pass. Either the king of the south will continue to exist, or the Bible is wrong. I personally choose to believe that the Bible is always correct and that the king of the south will exist just as Daniel says.

The last part of Daniel chapter 11 tells us the story of the last days. Daniel 11:36 tells us about the abomination, when "the king" utters monstrous blasphemies against God. This king must be the Antichrist. Then starting in verse 40, we are still talking about this king and we are told that he will be attacked by both the king of the south and the king of the north. Given that the empire of the antichrist will consist of all of the land controlled by the previous seven empires, this means that his empire will include at least all of the middle east, all of North Africa, most of Europe and all the land up to India. This also means that the king of the south refers to the Sub-saharan African countries who are currently allied with China and the king of the north refers to Russia who is also allied with China today. After defeating the north and south in verse 40, the antichrist continues his conquests until he gets to verse 44 where he heads east to meet China as the king of the east coming with a 200 million person army in the Battle of Armageddon. Given that we are talking about the countries of China and Russia, as well as the European and African continents, I am hoping that you can see this is not going to be some small middle eastern conflict that will end when the US tosses a couple nukes their way. Once you add in the description of events in Revelation and understand that the second beast refers to the religious institutions who will support the Antichrist's claim to be God, you can see that even in the America's there will be many people who accept this Antichrist as God and worship him. It is the small remnant who understand what is really happening and preach that the Antichrist is not God who will be shunned and persecuted. They will have to endure many indignities, and will be cut off from the economy as stores refuse to sell goods to those who have a different religion and do not worship the Antichrist. Nobody who remains faithful to the God of the Bible and rejects the Antichrist will have an easy time of it no matter where they live. This is why we need to prepare ourselves for the trial that lies ahead. Otherwise we will end up denying our Lord and will not enter into His Kingdom.

I am not sure what you mean by Armageddon Israel. Armageddon is a single battle that will take place in the plains of Megiddo. It is not an entire war. The Beast is going to conquer Israel at the time of the Abomination, essentially ending Israel and putting all of the Jews in concentration camps scattered around the empire of the antichrist. After this, the war between the Antichrist and the kings of the North, South and East will begin.

Plus a 200 Million person army.

I would be very careful of being confident in my ability to resist the temptation to worship the beast. This is not going to be some local skirmish around Jerusalem, but rather the entire world will be consumed with what is happening. Part of my daily prayer is to ask for strength to persevere in my faith until the end, resisting the temptation to worshiping the beast that will come to everyone. I currently live in the United States and am worried about how people will respond when the Antichrist declares that he is God and religious leaders all around the world support him in that claim.

Luigi, Notice that 3.5 days after the two witnesses are killed, God calls them up to Heaven. This is the rapture, so 3.5 days after the two witnesses are killed, Jesus will return and after the 45 days of the Wrath of God, the Millennial Kingdom will have been set up.

Shilohsfoal,, We do have to be a little careful about the timing of the resurrection because there will be two of them. At the time that Jesus returns, 42 months after the start of the Great Tribulation, the Church will be resurrected; first the dead in Christ and then those of us still living. The rest of humanity, including the Jews and all of the pre-flood people will need to wait until the end of the Millennial kingdom before their resurrection to face the Great White Throne judgement. I hope that nobody is saying that either of these resurrections will occur one year after Jesus returns.

Moby, I have not seen this before, and after following the link noticed that it is an extremely long lesson. I will take some time to study this, but i wanted to thank you for forwarding this on.

Diaste, I agree with you that the Jews will not be subject to seven years of intense persecution and that the Great Tribulation is "only" the last 3.5 years before Jesus returns. I have a very different view of the last days from that of everyone else. My initial post here is a perfect example of that. I do not believe that Jesus will come to rapture His Church until the end of the Great Tribulation. I also believe that Jesus will not return at the Battle of Armageddon as I stated in my initial post. I also know that there are many very committed Christians who strongly believe that the Great Tribulation is all that is left and the first 3.5 years occurred in the past. I have a very different position on this as well and believe that we still have seven years ahead of us where we will see the rise of the Antichrist for the first 3.5 years and then the Great Tribulation will begin after he overruns Jerusalem and throws the Jews in concentration camps scattered about his empire as per Zechariah 14. I personally believe that much of the first 3.5 years of the Antichrist will consist of him consolidating his power and it will only be close to the beginning of the Great Tribulation that he declares war on Israel and conquers them at the time of the Abomination. Because of this, I try to be very careful in how I phrase things. I do not refer to a "seven year tribulation", but rather "the years of the Antichrist". I also only use the Great Tribulation to refer to the last 3.5 years. I disagree with the belief that the Great Tribulation will be less than the 1260 days mentioned in Daniel for the Great Tribulation or the 1290 days after the Abomination. Therefore, I cannot agree with Jesus returning and rapturing His Church prior to these days that Daniel tells us. I believe that things will happen as described, the Great Tribulation will begin 30 days after the Abomination and last 1260 days. After that, Jesus will return to rapture the Church and establish the Millennial Kingdom. As i said, Jesus coming as a thief at the Battle of Armageddon is a big problem for the post-tribulation theory and since i cannot reject post-tribulation, I have to reject Jesus returning at the Battle of Armageddon. We are to gather fact from mankind and then use the scriptures to interpret that fact. I do not think that anyone on these forums or indeed anywhere in the world would deny that the Christian teaching is that Jesus is going to return at the Battle of Armageddon and that if such a battle were to take place, then Jesus would return at that time. Here is my logic: Unbelievers believe that Jesus will return at the Battle of Armageddon Therefore, when armies gather on the planes of Megiddo to do battle, unbelievers will expect Jesus to return at that time If Jesus returns at the Battle of Armageddon he is returning at a time when the unbeliever expect Him These first three things flow directly from human expectations. Now we need to bring in scripture to see the flaw. In scriptures, Jesus told us that He would return at a time that the unbelievers do not expect. Since scripture tells us that Jesus will return when people do not expect Him and people will expect Him at Armageddon, this means that Jesus cannot return. Rather than using fact from mankind to override scripture, I am using fact from scripture to override mankind.

Luigi, Thank you for clarifying your position. It is true that Paul tells us that there is no more Jew or Greek, but we are all one in Christ (Galatians 3:28). However, Paul is talking to the church in Galatia, so he is talking to Christians. Within the Church, it is true that there is no more Jew or Greek and we are all one people in Christ. However, this does not mean that the Jews outside the Church ceased to exist for God. Paul also tells us that just as the Church was grafted in, the Jews will be re-grafted back in (Romans 11:11 - 24). God has made promises to the Jews and different promises to the Church and He will keep all of His promises to each group. Thank you for clarifying this. A while back, I was encouraged to examine all of my assumptions. It took a long time, but I did this and as a result of my studies under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, I have rejected just about every assumption I had when I started the examination. This is why I am firmly convinced that Jesus will not return at the Battle of Armageddon. There is not just the negative argument presented in this thread, but God also showed me a positive argument through scriptures that also shows this must be true. One of the earliest assumption I had to reject was that of a pre-tribulation rapture. From our other interactions, I believe that you are very much being led by the Holy Spirit. I know that there are many, many arguments that seem to support a pre-tribulation rapture and that virtually every church pushes this belief. However, I would very much like to encourage you to search the scriptures and examine this belief. Ask the Holy Spirit to show you what is the truth and then trust Him to do the revealing. Ask if there will be multiple raptures for different groups of people of if there will only be one rapture for the one church that Jesus founded. Ask if it makes sense that God would protect the Church from all pain and suffering during the last few years when it has gone through so much pain and suffering through the preceding 2000 years. Ask if it makes sense that God would remove His witness to the World at the time that it needs the witness the most. Ask if it makes sense that the Church will return to rule and reign with Christ on the Earth during the Millennial Kingdom when God promised that the Jews would rule and reign on the Earth and that the Church would have mansions in the city of New Jerusalem. I am confident that after you have finished this honest examination, you will be led to the Truth.