John n Claudia

DeighAnn, These are all wonderful references. Let us start with Revelation 11:4 which tells us that the two witnesses are the two olive trees and the two candlesticks. This is our introduction to the two witnesses and what is said about them here should give us the best insight into who they are. Nowhere in scripture does an olive tree refer to a specific individual. However, throughout scripture the two olive trees are used as pictures of the Jews and the Church. The Jews are the cultivated olive tree and the church is the wild olive tree. On top of this, when we go back to Revelation 1:20, we see that in the very beginning of Revelation, Jesus tells us that the seven candlesticks are the seven churches. This tells us that in at least one place in the story of the end times a candlestick is used to represent the church, so it seems reasonable that the candlesticks in Revelation 1:20 and Revelation 11:4 represent the same thing. With this in mind, 11:5 is telling us that the fire proceeding out of their mouths is the fire of the Word of God. The Word is also a two edged sword that divides the soul and the spirit and it is this division that will devour those who are persecuting them and will eventually lead to their death in the lake of fire. 11:6 is also going to happen. These two groups will be very familiar with the Bible and the power that God has given them during this time. Now let us take a look at what they are going to do. They will call down plagues; this is the first of the seven bowls and the people worshiping the beast will be inflicted with sores all over their bodies. They will turn the water to blood, first the oceans and then the lakes and rivers; these are the second and third bowls. They will stop the rain for 3.5 years causing the Euphrates to dry up; this is the sixth bowl. The first six bowls are all the result of the prayers of these two witnesses during the last 3.5 years before Jesus returns. 11:7 then tells us that the beast shall kill the two witnesses. The beast is the last empire that has characteristics of the previous seven. This means that it is a group of people, not an individual. Since the beast, a group of people, defeats the witnesses, the witnesses should also be groups. If the two witnesses were specific individuals, they would be killed by specific individuals and not by a group. 11:8 - 10 then describes the celebration that occurs because the empire of the antichrist has finally managed to get rid of the last of those pesky Christians and Jews who were telling the empire that the real Jesus would return to vindicate the witnesses. 11:11 - 12 then describes the rapture. In addition to this, we need to also look at what the world believes will happen because this is a deception from Satan who wants to confuse people. Today, almost everybody believes that the two witnesses are two specific individuals. Moses and Elijah are the witnesses in most of the interpretations I have looked at, but there are other varieties. These individuals will walk around the city of Jerusalem spewing forth actual fire out of their mouths that burn up anyone who dares to attack them. If this were to actually happen and the two specific individuals were doing this for 3.5 years, then anybody who looked at what was written in Revelation 11 would immediately see the fulfillment of this prophecy. This would be so unique that there could not be any doubt regarding what is happening and we would see many people joining with these witnesses and opposing the people attacking them. This would be so obvious that a very cursory reading of Revelation leaves no doubt about what is happening. But we know that many people will be deceived and they will not recognize the signs. Satan has spread the lie that these will be two specific individuals so that when two individuals do not show up and instead there are just those crazy Jews and fanatic Christians who deny what everyone else is saying about the return of Jesus, it will be easy to miss that these two groups are the two witnesses and that they are doing everything that the Bible tells us they will do.

DeighAnn, the Bible tells us in Revelation 17:11 that the seven headed beast is an eighth empire. He arises out of the head (empire) that received the mortal wound but did not die. This is why I said that the last empire, the empire of the antichrist will be a resurrection of the last empire which killed the Roman Empire. As far as the two witnesses are concerned, do not be surprised if the world and most of the people who claim to believe in Jesus completely miss these two witnesses. These are not going to be two specific individuals who magically appear out of nowhere to call down plagues on the empire of the Antichrist. These are going to be two groups of people who will be ridiculed and imprisoned for holding onto the belief that Jesus has not yet arrived on the earth when everyone else believes that he has already returned. This is exactly why Jesus warned us in Matthew 24:23 and Mark 13:21 not to believe anyone who tells us that Jesus has already returned.

DeighAnn, Again, some very good questions. I have multiple reasons why I believe this, some with solid Biblical support, others with tenuous Biblical support but which are more theologically satisfying. The thing that we must always remember is that every prophecy in the Bible will be fulfilled exactly as it was intended. When the Bible describes a physical temple in which the Jews will worship and offer sacrifices, I can assure you that the temple will be built and the sacrifices will be offered. It is because of this that I must believe that the temple described by Ezekiel will be built during the Millennial Kingdom and the sacrifices that are described will be made. This is also why I believe the Jews who worship in that temple will still be in their mortal bodies. Since they are making sin offerings, this means that they will sin. If they have also received their glorified body, this means that they have seen God as He is and they then willfully chose to disobey. This is the same thing that Satan did and just as he will be punished, God will also punish anyone else who sins in this way. Since the prophecy in unambiguous and the sacrifices are going to be made, this means that the only thing we can do is try and reason out why they will be necessary. Denying that they will actually happen is denying the Bible and leads to apostasy. This is why I look to the other scriptures to understand the difference between what is today, what was in the old testament and what will be in the Millennial Kingdom. It is true that today in the Church, for the believers in Christ, we are judged based on our faith and sacrifices are no longer necessary because of what Jesus did. But it is also true that the Church is the only group to which that applies. Revelation 20:12 clearly states that everybody who was not raptured will be judged for their deeds. This includes all the Old Testament saints as well as those living in the Millennial Kingdom. As far as your question of giving the best that is to be offered, the offer of the church was open to everyone and the people who are alive in their mortal bodies had rejected the offer. If they rejected it during this age, why should this same offer be given again. The offer in this age is conditioned on our faith that Jesus is the Messiah. Once He returns and proves that He is the messiah, faith in His return no longer means anything because He has already returned. In case this is confusing, let me try explaining it a different way. Jesus told us that He was going to go away, but He would return and if we remained faithful and kept His commandments until He returned, we would be rewarded with eternal life and the forgiveness of sins. This is conditional, so we only get the reward if we satisfy the conditions of being faithful and keeping His commandments from the time we are born again until the time Jesus returns. Since time only moves forward and never backwards, this means that after Jesus has returned, it is impossible to satisfy the conditions because the return is already in the past. Therefore in the Millennial Kingdom, the promise made to the Church is no longer available to anyone. In order to understand why God had no pleasure in the sacrifices that were made, we need to go back to the story of King Saul in 1 Samuel 15. In this story, Saul was to kill all of the Amalekites along with all of their livestock and to destroy all of their possessions. Instead of doing this, Saul got greedy. He kept some of the Amalekites alive for slaves, kept the best of the sheep and oxen for his own use and kept all of the gold and precious jewels. When confronted by Samuel, Saul made a lame excuse and said that he kept these things so he could make an offering to God. In verse 22, Samuel clarifies what is required. Before any sacrifice to God can be accepted, we must first obey the commands of God. There is no pleasure in the sacrifice because God is only given lip-service and people have not completely devoted themselves to the obedience, love and worship of God. It is this obedience, love and worship of God that defines us as members of His Church and without that fruit in our lives, we will not be saved when Jesus returns. This is also why we are told that only those who endure and are faithful until the end will be saved.

DeighAnn, Thank you for the kind words I am confident that if you continue to seek after the Lord and study His Word, He will grant you wisdom and insight and improve your writing skills. After receiving this blessing, the most important thing to remember is that every blessing is from the Lord, everything you have is a gift from Him. We are not to become proud of our own abilities, but rather give thanks and glory to God who has blessed us. If my writing brings glory to me, I have failed in my duty to God. It is only when my writings draw people closer to God that I become a worthy servant. From personal experience, I can tell you that this is often a difficult thing to remember and I have been chastened multiple times in the past for my pride. With regard to your question there are multiple levels in just about every prophecy. We are told that there is a spirit of antichrist and on a meta-level, just as the church is one body that is made up of many people, the antichrist can also be looked at as one body that is made up of many people. When I look at end time prophecies, I do not just look at what is written, but I also look at how the world interprets those prophecies. I do this because our enemy is putting those interpretations out there because that is what he wants people to believe. This means that if I am given an interpretation that does not contradict any other prophecy in the Bible and I also know what our enemy wants us to believe, I can get some insight into how he will use that incorrect interpretation to deceive the world. I know this is hard to follow, so let me give you a concrete example. Currently the whole world expects the antichrist to be a specific individual who will come from Eastern Europe and create a time of peace and prosperity during which the Jews build a third physical temple. Since there are multiple places in Isaiah and Micah where we are told that the person leading the war against the Jews during the last days is the king of Assyria, I have to reject the belief that there will be a person from Eastern Europe who will be this antichrist that everybody is expecting. Instead, I believe Satan will set up a "fall-man" during the last days who will see injustices being done and will try to stop a war between Israel and her neighbors. At first, this person will be successful in bringing the two sides to the negotiating table. However, before any sort of agreement can be reached, a reporter will break a news story comparing this person to the antichrist that everybody is expecting. After all, this will be a political leader from Eastern Europe who is trying to bring peace to the Middle East so the Jews can build a temple. After the news story goes viral, this person will have to resign his post in disgrace, but it will have served the purpose of distracting the world from what is really happening. While I believe that this will happen, there is no direct Biblical evidence or prophecies about this. Instead, I am making this conclusion based on what Satan wants people to believe that contradicts what is actually prophesied in the Bible. I hope this makes things a little clearer. Based on this methodology, I personally believe that there will be a specific individual who will stand in the Holy Place and declare that he is God and that this individual could be classified as "THE Antichrist". However this person will have multiple roles to play during the last days and I hesitate to identify him as "THE Antichrist". With regard to the beast (the first beast with seven heads) and the false prophet (the second beast with two horns), these are both organizations. The beast is an empire that is the resurrection of the empire system that started with Egypt. As such, it will be a political and military organization. Included in its constituents will be radicals that support the mission of the empire with all their being as well as others who are happy to adjust their beliefs so they can live under the protection offered by the empire, but would be just as content if there were some other government. The second beast is made up of two religious groups (the two horns) that join together in order support the empire and agree with the specific individual mentioned in the previous paragraph when he declares that he is God.

DeighAnn, This is a very good question and it is one that is impossible to answer within the context of our current dispensation where we are covered by the blood of Christ. The way that we need to understand this is that the blood of Jesus covers those who accepted His sacrifice and are justified by their faith in Him and His sacrifice. The Bible tells us that it is only those who are part of the first resurrection, those who are raptured prior to the Millennial Kingdom that are covered by the blood of Jesus. We see this in Revelation 20:12 where we are told that everyone who was not a part of the first resurrection went before the Great White Throne and they were judged according to what they had done. This means that everyone who will be alive on the earth during the Millennial Kingdom, both the Jews and the Gentiles, will be judged based on their deeds and they are not covered by the blood of Jesus the way that the believers are covered today. Since they are not covered by the blood of Jesus, this means that any sin must be covered by something else and this is why the sacrificial system will be re-instituted. Just because we do not like the idea of animal sacrifices and they are not needed in our current church dispensation, does not give us the license to change or ignore the Scriptures. Ezekiel is very clear that these sacrifices will be made and that the third Jewish temple will be built. Any theory about the Millennial Kingdom that denies these prophecies is denying the Bible and must be rejected.

Moby, As i said, I have great respect for Rob and his work. I also believe that the Gentile and Jew are one in Christ. The difference in our beliefs is that Rob believes the joining togetherr of the Jews and the Church into one body will occur at the rapture before the Millennial Kingdom while I believe that this joining together will occur after the Great White Throne judgement at the end of the Millennial Kingdom. The issue is not that the two groups are one in Christ today and will become one in actuality, but rather the timing of this joining together. The following gives my reasoning for the joining together of these two groups into one occurring after the Millennial Kingdom. In our current dispensation, anytime someone believes in Christ, they are joined into one body of believers. This body of believers are the ones who are born again and become eligible for salvation in the first resurrection, when Jesus returns. This is the new or wild olive tree that is referenced throughout scripture. This includes anyone who has accepted Jesus as their Savior regardless of their biological heritage and includes people from every nation and language. Everyone in this group will be raptured when Jesus returns and will receive their glorified body at that time. Unfortunately, most of the Jews will not believe in Jesus as their Savior until after Jesus has already returned and accomplished all of the things that He is supposed to do as a Jewish Savior. These activities include: Saving the Jews from earthly persecution from earthly enemies reuniting all twelve of the tribes as described in Revelation Defeating all of the earthly enemies of the Jews Establishing a kingdom that will last 1000 years Until Jesus does all of this, the Jews as a nation will not accept Him as their savior. Since the rapture occurs when Jesus returns, this will be before Jesus accomplishes the four points above and thus before the Jews accept Him as their savior. All of this means that as a corporate body, the Jewish nation is not eligible for salvation until after the rapture and therefore only the individual Jews who have accepted Jesus, the Messianic Jews, will be included in the rapture. None of the other Jews will not receive their glorified bodies at that time, and those who are not killed during the tribulation and Wrath of God will enter the Millennial Kingdom in the mortal bodies. After the Millennial kingdom and the rebellion of Gog and Magog, everyone else who ever lived will be resurrected and go through the Great White Throne judgement. At that time they are judged for their deeds rather than for their faith in Christ. Those who are found worthy at this judgement will then receive a glorified body and join the raptured church in a single body with no more distinction between people. I did see that. One of the problems I have with this timeline is that the locusts associated with the fifth trumpet are going to inflict pain for 5 months, but the timeline has the duration of the trumpets as 45 days. This requires the trumpets to extend beyond the 45 days of the trumpets. Another issue is that Daniel 12:12 tells us that everyone who arrives at day 1335 will be blessed. According to this timeline however, day 1335 starts the 320 days of the bowls and the people who have to endure those will certainly not be blessed. Throughout these chapters, we are given the size of rooms and the height of the gates. We are told that the entire complex is to be 25,000 royal cubits and depending on the conversion from cubits to feet, this could be more than 10 miles on each side. while 100 square miles is a significant amount of land, it pales in comparison to the city of New Jerusalem which is God's city at over 1300 miles in each direction. This means that the scale of things on the earth is orders of magnitudes smaller than the scale of things in the heavens and therefore the temple described in Ezekiel must be something on the earth and not spiritual or heavenly. The prophecy in Ezekiel with actual physical measurements describes an actual physical temple. Since this temple has not been built in our past, then we are left with a choice to either: deny the Bible by saying that this prophecy is a false prophecy and it will not come to pass or accept the prophecy as a true prophecy and believe that this temple will be built in our future I chose to believe that the Bible is true and therefore I believe that this temple will be built in the future. I also believe that it will take supernatural intervention for this to occur given the current state of affairs in the Middle East. Since I believe that the supernatural intervention will occur at the second coming of Christ, I have to believe that this temple will be built during the Millennial Kingdom and this will be built for the mortal people, Jews and Gentiles who are still living on the earth at this time. Since the description of the temple in Ezekiel in no way matches the second temple that was built, these must be two different temples and Ezekiel's temple has nothing to do with Cyrus. I do understand the difficulty in accepting the need for sacrifices in the Millennial Kingdom given the reality of our current dispensation where our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus. Nevertheless, the Bible does say that the temple will be built and that sacrifices will be made. It also says that these sacrifices will be sin offerings so this means that the people living on the earth during the Millennial Kingdom, including the Jews who have God's Law written on their heart, will sin. The way that we need to understand this is that the blood of Jesus covers those who accepted His sacrifice and are justified by our faith in Him and His sacrifice. The Bible tells us that it is only those who are part of the first resurrection, those who are raptured prior to the Millennial Kingdom that are covered by the blood of Jesus. We see this in Revelation 20:12 where we are told that everyone who was not a part of the first resurrection went before the Great White Throne and they were judged according to what they had done. This means that everyone who will be alive on the earth during the Millennial Kingdom, both the Jews and the Gentiles, will be judged based on their deeds and they are not covered by the blood of Jesus the way that the believers are covered today. Since they are not covered by the blood of Jesus, this means that any sin must be covered by something else and this is why the sacrificial system will be reinstituted. I very much agree with this. I also believe that most people do not understand this and believe that the antichrist will be a specific individual. Our enemy is a liar and everything he does is deception. This is why I believe that we need to look at the general beliefs that are held by the world so that wee can understand what our enemy wants us to believe and this will give us additional insight into the truth. Of course if our insights contradict any scripture, we must accept that these insights are also a deception of Satan and be willing to abandon them without hesitation. With this in mind, because the world believes there will be a specific individual who is the antichrist, I believe that Satan will arrange things so that a specific individual will be identified by the world as the antichrist. Since the world is also expecting Jesus to return at some point, I believe that Satan will arrange for a specific man to present himself to the whole world as a substitute for Jesus and give this man supernatural powers so that he can convince the world that he is God. Of course this man will not be God. While I do admit that there is a spirit of antichrist and all antichrists are controlled by Satan, I believe that this last antichrist will be a specific individual who will convince the religious establishments around the world to accept him as God because of his ability to do supernatural things after he is possessed by Satan. I have found nothing in scripture that contradicts this scenario and it fits with the layers of deception that Satan has been laying down for the last 2000 years. There are many problems with interpreting the 70 weeks of Daniel to be a continuous set of 490 years. Trying to put the destruction of the temple at 70 AD, and looking back in history, there is nothing significant that occurred seven years (1 week prior), 434 years (62 weeks), 441 years (63 weeks), 483 years (69 weeks) or 490 years (70 weeks) prior. In order to interpret the 70 weeks, you have to look at what it actually says. 24“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and for your holy city for putting an end to the transgression, for making an end of sin, for forgiving iniquity, for bringing in everlasting justice, for setting the seal on vision and prophet, and for anointing the Especially Holy Place. 25Know, therefore, and discern that seven weeks [of years] will elapse between the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim until an anointed prince comes. It will remain built for sixty-two weeks [of years], with open spaces and moats; but these will be troubled times. 26Then, after the sixty-two weeks, Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing. The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over. 27He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.” (Daniel 9:24 - 27, CJB) The first thing to note is that the purpose of the prophecy is to tell us when an anointed prince is going to arrive. There are three times this will happen. First when Cyrus arrives to conquer Nineveh and defeat Babylon, second when Jesus is born and third when Jesus returns in his second coming. Most interpretations misunderstand the purpose of the prophecy and try to include the arrival of Cyrus as the starting point of the first 7 weeks rather than the ending point. With this in mind and knowing that Cyrus conquered Babylon in 538 BC, we just have to look back 49 years to 538 + 49 = 587 BC. This was one year before Jerusalem fell to Nebuchadnezzar and just happened to be the year that Isaiah prophesied that Cyrus would come as the anointed prince in Isaiah 45:1 - 3. This means that the first 7 weeks represent the time from the announcement that Cyrus was the anointed prince who would issue the decree to restore Jerusalem and his actual arrival. This is exactly what Daniel 9:25 states. The decree was not the decree of Cyrus to rebuild the temple, but the decree of God through Isaiah that He would send Cyrus as the anointed prince. Now let us look at the second set of 62 weeks. Once again, the ending point is the arrival of the anointed prince and this time it is referring to the birth of Jesus in 3 BC. 62 week is 434 year so we need to find out what happened in 3 + 434 = 437 BC. A quick google search will show that this is exactly the year that Nehemiah finished building the wall around Jerusalem. This means that the second set of weeks describes the time from the completion of the wall until the arrival of the second anointed prince and just as the prophecy said, the wall around the city remained for all 434 years, but those were troubled times. This now takes us to the third set of weeks. Here there is only 1 week, so this means there will be seven years. In describing these years the angel said: The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over. 27He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator. Just as the first two sets of weeks were complete sets and not divided in to pieces, these last seven years are also one continuous set of years. Note that the prince and the people are yet to come so this means the Prince is not Jewish. Note also that this does not say the prince will make a covenant with the Jews. It just states that he will make a covenant with leaders, so there is nothing in this passage that says the Jews are going to have any sort of peace agreement with this prince. Since the fulfillment of this verse is still in our future, we need to interpret this with our knowledge of current events. Knowing that there is no Jewish temple and the Jews are not currently making sacrifices and offerings in a Jewish temple, this portion needs to represent some other sort of sacrifice and offering. The sacrifices and offerings that are currently being made by the Jews and the Church for God are our gathering together in corporate worship, supporting and praying for each other and monetary offerings to the churches and synagogues. These are the sorts of things that will be stopped halfway through the week and they will be done because this is the abomination, when foreign armies overrun Jerusalem and the Jews flee for their lives. Anyone who does not escape at this time will be thrown into concentration camps as described in Zechariah chapter 14. As you can see, this interpretation manages to fit the sets of weeks into matching events in history that are all related to the coming of the anointed prince. I have not yet seen any interpretation that manages to fit a continuous set of 490 years into a sequence of historical events related to the coming of an anointed prince. If you have one, please let me know so that I can change my beliefs. As I have stated multiple times, I wish that someone would point out errors in my interpretation of the various prophecies in the Bible. I do not want to believe the scenario that has been burned into my consciousness as a result of my study. It is of a horrible time where Satan layers deception upon deception and billions of people die horrible deaths. It is a time where nearly everyone abandons their faith in God and willingly endorse the wholesale slaughter of others. It is a time where the events we have already experienced in 2020 seem like a time of joy and prosperity. Unfortunately, every other theory I have encountered regarding the last days ignores prophecies that contradict what they chose to believe.

Moby, I know it has been a couple weeks since you posted this, but I wanted to make sure that I fully understood the lesson you referred to along with the associated teachings on the website. There is no question that the author has great insight into the prophecies and what is said in the New Testament and I have updated several tenets of my theology based on these lessons. However, there are also significant differences in our beliefs. I have listed four of the largest differences below: The timing when Jesus will join the Jews and the Church into a single group and remove all differences between people The website claims that at the rapture, the two groups of the Church and the Jews become one group. That is, at the rapture there is no more distinction between Jew and Church. Both groups get their glorified bodies at that time and live forever. It is only the non-Jew and non-Church people who enter into the Millennial Kingdom in mortal bodies. This also means that the Church/Jew group will both live and reign on the Earth with Jesus during the Millennial Kingdom. In contrast, I believe that the two groups become one only after the Great White Throne judgement. Until that has happened, the Church and the Jews remain distinct groups. This has never prevented any biological Jew from joining the Church in order to receive the better promises that were made and this invitation will remain open up until the moment the rapture occurs. The Jews who chose to accept Christ before the rapture will be moved from the Jews to the Church, be included in the first resurrection and receive their glorified body at the rapture, 1000 years earlier than they would receive it if they had not joined the Church. Related to this difference, I believe that the Church will rule and reign in their glorified bodies with Jesus from New Jerusalem, walking among the stones of fire and tending to the planets, stars and galaxies scattered about the universe. In contrast to this, the Jews will rule and reign with the prince described in Ezekiel from the earthly city of Jerusalem. They will still be in their mortal bodies with the law of God written on their hearts and during this 1000 years, they will tend to the cities and nations scattered over the earth. After the final rebellion at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, God will have successfully defended his honor from the attacks of the enemy and will finally be free to punish Satan in the lake of fire for his sins. This is why after the final rebellion, we get to the Great White Throne Judgement and after everyone else has been judged, Satan is thrown in there to be punished forever. It is only at this time that God will remove all of the distinctions between Jew, Church, Greek and Gentile. Everyone who was not thrown into the lake of fire has received their glorified body and they will continue the work of tending to God's creation that the Church began 1000 years earlier. The timing of the seals, trumpets and bowls The next difference is that the website has the seals, trumpets and bowls all occurring sequentially with the first seal being opened at the beginning of the 7 year tribulation. It then extends the seven years into an eighth based on Isaiah 34:8 8For Adonai (the Lord) has a day of vengeance,a year of requital for fighting with Tziyon (Zion). (CJB) The website interprets this to mean that the first seven years are the time when Satan executes his wrath against the Church and the Jews. This is also the time when the seals and trumpets occur. It is after this that the eighth year starts and this is when God executes His Wrath on Satan and the Gentiles and the time when the bowls are poured. As explained above, all of the Jews and the Church are given glorified bodies at this time. All distinctions are also removed between the two groups and both groups rule together with Jesus on the Earth for the next 1000 years. In contrast to this, I believe that the seals, trumpets and bowls occur in parallel timelines. The first seal was opened in 1299 with the founding of the last empire, the seventh head of the beast that would eventually kill the sixth head which was the Roman Empire in 1543. The second seal was then opened in 1914 with WW1 and it was this war that gave the seventh empire its mortal wound. The third seal was opened in 2016 with the famine that started in Yemen and has spread across Africa. This famine has become so bad that the UN is estimating that 300,000 people will be dying of starvation each day by the end of 2020. Note that this famine does not include what is happening in China where domestic food production has been cut by 30% because of locusts and the fall armyworm this year. It also does not include what is happening as the result of additional locust infestations in the India-Pakistan region or in South America. I expect the the 300,000 estimate is going to be way to low. Since the trumpets occur in parallel with the seals, the fires we experienced starting late last year in Australia and what we have seen this year in California and Siberia have convinced me that the first trumpet has also sounded. Multiple scientists are now warning us that rain will wash nutrients from the burned land into the oceans. They are expecting there to be huge algal blooms that will turn the oceans a blood red color and remove all the oxygen so that there will be a massive dying of the fish in the oceans. This is almost exactly what the second trumpet is supposed to produce. While none of the bowls have been poured yet, this is because they have to wait for the appearance of the 2 witnesses during the last 1260 days before Jesus returns. Note that the witnesses call down plagues like the boils in Egypt and the sores that arrive with the first bowl. They also turn the water to blood which is exactly what happens with the second and third bowls. I could be wrong about this and I pray that I am wrong because if I am right things then what we experienced so far in 2020 are nothing compared to what will happen in 2021 and many people will run out of time to turn to God and be born again before Jesus returns as a thief in the night. I hesitate to say this because we are told not to predict the coming of our Lord until we experience the abomination and we know without any doubt that there are only 1290 days left. However, we are also told to look at what is written in the Bible and watch for the signs of His return and warn our fellow believers regarding what is happening. If I am wrong, I will go back to the drawing board and try to understand where I misinterpreted the signs. If I am correct, I will have given people several additional months of warning regarding the events that are about to occur. In contrast to year of requital described in Isaiah 34:8 being the year after the Great Tribulation and equivalent to the Wrath of God, I believe that this is the year prior to the seven years where the Antichrist will be active on the earth. I also believe that the fires in Australia and the release of COVID 19 began this year of requital. I hope and pray that I am wrong, but if I am correct, the year of requital started in November 2019 and shortly after this year's presidential election in the United States, we will see the Islamic State, which lost its caliphate a couple years ago, resurrect itself by reclaiming land in the Middle East. This will lead to the rise of the antichrist and the recreation of an Islamic Empire, starting the seven year clock for the return of Jesus. I want to be wrong about this because if I am correct, we are a lot closer to the last days than anyone imagines and I desperately want my family to have more time to accept Jesus as Savior and Lord before it is too late. I also disagree that there will be one full year of punishment after the end of the Great Tribulation. Daniel 12:11 - 12 tells us that Jesus will return 1290 days after the abomination and that everyone who makes it to day 1335 will be blessed. If God is punishing people for one full year after the 1290 days, then those who are being punished but still manage to make it to day 1335 will not feel very blessed. There are still 365 - 45 = 320 days of punishment still ahead of them. This is why I believe that the Wrath of God will only take 45 days and those who do manage to make it through those 45 days will then enter into a brand new world. God's Wrath will have cleansed the earth from the mess we made of it over the last 2000 years. He will have reset its equilibrium; it might be similar to what things were like before the industrial revolution, to what things were like before the flood, or it could be something completely new. All we know for sure is that those who make it to this day and who will live during the 1000 years of the Millennial Kingdom will live life spans that are longer than are lived today and shorter than what was lived before the flood. The third temple described in Ezekiel According to the website, the Jews and the Church have received glorified bodies and are ruling and reigning with Jesus on the earth. As a result of this, the Jews and the Church can see God as He is and there is no need for a temple because the Bible tells us that God is our temple and that God will never live in a temple made by human hands. In contrast to this, I believe that there will be a third Jewish temple built, exactly as described in Ezekiel. God has devoted 9 chapters (Ezekiel 40 through 48) to the description of the temple. This includes room sizes and the types of offerings and sacrifices that will be made. I cannot believe any scenario that tells me that any portion of any prophecy in the Bible will not happen. Going beyond this to say that there are nine whole chapters that are irrelevant and will never happen forces me to reject the conclusions made by the author and to look for an alternative scenario that does incorporate the prophecies in Ezekiel. This is why I believe that the distinction between the Church and the Jews remains until the end of the Millennial Kingdom. As described above, the Church in their glorified bodies rules and reigns with Christ in the mansions He went to prepare for us 2000 years ago in New Jerusalem. During this time, we will be taking care of the planets, stars and galaxies that God placed in the universe for us. At the same the Jews will be ruling and reigning on the earth, worshiping in the temple that was built exactly as described in Ezekiel. The definition of THE Antichrist The website spiritualizes THE Antichrist, saying that just as Jesus draws all of His followers into a single body, Satan is also drawing all of his followers into a single body and THE Antichrist refers to this group of people rather than to a specific individual. In contrast to this, I believe that THE Antichrist refers to a specific individual that Satan will possess. This is the person referred to in Isaiah and Micah as the King of Assyria. This is also the specific person who considers himself greater than any god in Daniel 11:36 and who leads his army against the king of the east in Daniel 11:44. During this battle, he will be supported by his priests who, as members of the second beast, call down fire from heaven as described in Revelation 13:13. While there are differences in our beliefs, I do not want to disparage the website and its teachings in any manner. As I said in the beginning of this post, I have a great deal of respect for the website and its author. I believe that it is closer to the truth than just about everything else that has been published. While there are several points where I have a different interpretation that I believe more closely matches what Scripture is saying, I applaud the website for publishing their lessons and spreading truth to others. Note also, that this is exactly what Christianity is supposed to be about. We are each supposed to be diligently searching the Scriptures. We need to sharpen ourselves by bouncing ideas off each other and at the end of the debate, we are all required to continue loving our brothers and sisters in Christ and to make up their own mind regarding which interpretation most closely matches what scripture is telling us.

iamlamad, I have had this same conversation multiple times with people who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. I clearly state my definition of the Great Tribulation and Wrath of God and ask them to do the same. They start out with bold statements and then when I ask if they really meant what they said, they add qualification after qualification until eventually it comes down to they don't really know how to define these basic concepts so they say something vague like "Revelation is about events" and "I can't tell you exactly what this is, but I know it when I see it". This is one more reason that I just cannot accept the pre-trib position. If you can't even define basic terms, how can you be confident in any conclusions that you make. Did you count them? This is exactly the difference between our positions. You have to individually examine each event and then decide, independent of any previous or later event how to classify something. There is no rhyme or reason and no underlying logic to this, just how you personally feel about that specific event. My position on the other hand has a very specific definition and a very well defined methodology by which the events listed can be evaluated and classified. When a believer cannot even admit that the hidden plan of God in Revelation 10:7 is the same hidden plan of God in Ephesians 3:9 because they are in denial about the Church having to go through the first six trumpets, there is a problem. I think this conversation has gone about as far as it can go, so I will bow out from this conversation now and let you win this debate.

iamlamad, As seen in different interchanges, we have very different views regarding how to interpret Revelation. Per your interpretation, no trumpet can sound until after the seventh seal is opened. As a result of your assumptions and how you interpret Revelations, my answer does not make sense to you. Per my interpretation, the seals, trumpets and bowls are different series and they run in parallel. This means that I do not have the restriction that the seventh seal has to be opened before the first trumpet can sound. The reason that I have been asking you questions in the other thread is so that I can understand your theory and know how to interpret your answers. I would ask that you provide me the same courtesy and try to understand how I look at Revelation before you dismiss my posts out of hand and say that things cannot happen the way I believe they will happen. Thank you very much in advance for this consideration.

abcdef, I have to apologize. I have been trying to understand your logic and why you you think the seals all occurred between 37 and 70 AD, but I cannot understand it at all. I am glad that you have a theory that works for you, but I am going to have to bow out of this conversation.

Again, I apologize for misunderstanding. Having had this written this way for the previous 5 posts without any comment from you, I had thought we had a solid agreement on the definition. I do not want to sound facetious about this, but it sounds like your definition is that the Wrath of God consists of a subset of the events between chapters 6 and 20, but only the events you want to include. Also, you do not have a standard process by which you identify those events, but have to look at each event individually before you can determine if it is part of the Wrath of God or not. Now, I am sure that this is not what you mean, so could you be more specific about this? Again, I apologize if I am putting words in your mouth, so please correct my misunderstandings. The great tribulation starts when the beast and the false prophet start marking people, but it cannot be tied to any event listed in Revelation so we will not know what if any event will precede or follow the beginning of this marking. It will end at some indeterminate point of time in the future but there is no known event in Revelation that precedes or follows this so we cannot know when it either starts or ends. Once again, I am sure that I am misstating what you believe, so please correct me. I really do want to understand your definitions of these. Do you think it ends, or do you know it ends? It is hard for me to pin down a definition if you yourself do not have a clear understanding of things. Based on this and the previous answer I quoted I am really confused, so please help me understand. Since the warning occurs after the last trumpet and this is late, are you saying that the Great Tribulation starts a little bit before the last trumpet sounds so it starts just before the seventh trumpet? Or is this more than a little late so the sixth trumpet also happens after the start of the Great Tribulation. Also, I thought that the vials immediately followed the trumpets and there were no events between them. Since your previous answer said that the Great Tribulation ends before the vials are poured out, does this mean that the Great tribulation consist only of the seventh trumpet? I want to make sure that I am not putting words in your mouth so please correct my misunderstandings. Daniel was shown the abomination because Jesus told us that he was shown it in Matthew 24:15. Per Daniel, the Great Tribulation or the Time of Jacob's Trouble, lasts 42 months and the 1290 days is the time between the Antichrist standing in the temple declaring that he is God, which I believe is the Abomination, and the return of Jesus. If you do not believe this is the Abomination, what does Daniel 11:36 describe to you? Um, wouldn't this be a secret of Satan and not a secret of God? As you mentioned, throughout the Bible, God proclaims that Satan is the god of this world, so it is not a secret as far as God is concerned. Besides, the quote is that this is a hidden or secret plan, not just a secret. Is there anything that we are told is a secret or hidden plan of God?

iamlamad, I apologize for misunderstanding what you said. Like I mentioned, I am trying to understand your theory and hopefully I will have gotten it correct this time. Your definitions are: The Great Tribulation starting when the Beast and False prophet have stated branding people with their mark. The Wrath of God consists of all events listed in Revelation between chapters 6 and 20 that occur after the first instance of the word wrath in Revelation 6:16. This includes all seven trumpets, all seven bowls, the entire story of the woman clothed in the sun and the entire story of the angel with authority. Additionally all of the events of the Wrath of God will occur chronologically in the exact order in which they appear in the text. Again, if I am incorrect in my definitions, please correct me. Does the Great Tribulation have anything that marks its end? Does it end when Jesus returns a third time with the church He raptured seven years earlier? Is there any other event listed in Revelation that can give me a reference point so I can understand where this starts compared to the seals, trumpets or bowls? I still would like to understand how you see Daniel 11 fitting into the end times. For example: Does Daniel 11:36 describe the Abomination that occurs 43 months before the end? If so, is the king in Daniel 11:36 the man you call the Antichrist? As one final question, can you tell me what is the hidden or secret plan of God that will be brought to completion with the sound of the seventh trumpet as described in Revelation 10:7?

Thank you for confirming that I have correctly stated your position regarding The Holy Land The seven heads of the beast After the Jewish dispersion The Antichrist 10 represents and The little horn As I mentioned, most likely we are both wrong and will be corrected by God at the appropriate time. In the meanwhile, let everyone examine the prophecies of the Bible and the beliefs we have and decide what we want to believe.

Charlie, You are very correct that I interpret the Book of Revelation literally. I also interpret the other prophecies literally as well. When revelation tells us that 1/3 of the forests will burn, I believe that 1/3 of the physical forest spread all around the world will burn. With the fires we are seeing in Australia, Siberia, the Amazon and California, I believe the first trumpet has already sounded. When the Bible tells us that all of the seas will turn to blood with the second bowl, I believe that all of the seas will turn to a blood color and the oxygen will be removed killing sea life. Most likely this will be the result of algal blooms rather than actual blood, but the look and the result will be the same. Remember that John was told to write what he saw, and what he saw was water that was reddish like blood and lots of fish dying. I also believe that the trumpets represent world wide disasters while the bowls represent disasters that are local to the empire of the Antichrist. This is why the sores associated with the first bowl only affected those who had received the mark of the beast. This means that 1/3 of the oceans all around the world will turn to blood with the second trumpet and all of the seas around the reborn Ottoman Empire will turn to blood with the second bowl. There are times where we need to spiritualize things, but even there, it is a literal interpretation. For example, in the New Testament, every mention of the word temple is to be interpreted as being the body of believers or our own body, unless it is completely obvious it is talking about a physical temple (e.g. Paul went into the temple to preach). This is especially true in Revelation 11:1 where John is given a measuring stick and told to measure the temple. Note that the second half of the verse tells John how to measure the temple - by counting the number of people. This is the clue that tells us we are not talking about a physical Jewish temple, but rather we are talking about the temple that is the Church, the set of believers whose heart has been circumcised and who are following after the Lord and John is being told to measure the size of the Church by counting how many people are in it worshiping God. As further evidence that this is the correct way to interpret the verse, we just need to look at the other time someone measured a temple. This is Ezekiel starting in Chapter 40 and in that passage he gives a description of the rooms along with the size of the room in cubits. This clearly indicates Ezekiel is measuring a physical temple that will be built at some point in our future, while John could not possibly be measuring a physical building or he would also have been given the sizes of the rooms. If you do a search for the word temple or sanctuary (depending on the translation you use), you will see that my claim is correct. Note also that this means I do not believe a third Jewish temple will be built before Jesus returns. When the Bible tells us the Antichrist stands in the temple and declares that he is God, this is not saying that the antichrist stands in a physical Jewish temple, but rather that the religious institutions of the world will support his claim to be God. Note that this is one more way in which he is an anti-Christ. Jesus, the real Christ was rejected by the religious authorities while the Antichrist will be accepted and celebrated. I hope that this helps.

RevelationMan, We have had numerous interactions in the past and it has already been determined that any dialogue between you and me will never be fruitful because we have very different definitions for basic concepts like the Wrath of God and the Great Tribulation. I generally do not even read your posts because I understand we have this difference and until we can get on the same page regarding definitions, we will just confuse each other. In my post, I presented my opinion and gave reasons why I believe they are true. They may be true or they may be false, we will never know for sure until we get to Heaven and the Lord tells us. Many of the statements that you made are also opinions that cannot be proven true or false, but you presented them as facts. However, there is one claim that you made that can be proven to be false. Namely that with the EU, Europe has become one nation. This is not true and all of the European countries would strongly object to this characterization. I have cousins who live in seven different European countries and while they are grateful that they no longer need a passport in order to visit one another, they will be among the first to tell you that Europe is not a single country. But even more damaging to this claim is the fact of Brexit. Great Britain left the EU and this shows that the EU cannot be considered a single country. Since in general, both you and I presented our opinions that can neither be proved nor disproved as true, I will let history and judge between us and let other people make up their own mind which theory makes the most sense: The Holy Land is a special place for God and has remained special throughout the existence of the Earth (JnC) was abandoned by God in 70AD and replaced by Europe (RM) The seven heads of the beast are all empires, a unified political, military and for the most part, religious entity (JnC) the first six are empires as above, the last one is a man (RM) After the Jewish dispersion the empire system continued without interruption (JnC) the sixth empire continued for 1477 years and after being absent for about 500 years (1453 AD - 1950+ AD) was resurrected by an empire whose only connection to the previous empire is that it controls about half of the land (RM) The Antichrist will resurrect the seventh head as the eighth empire as prophesied (JnC) will take over the existing seventh head without creating an eighth. (RM) 10 represents 10, as in 10 Muslim countries will band together in order to establish an Islamic Caliphate resurrecting the Ottoman Empire (JnC) everything, as in the 26, 27 or however many countries are in the existing EU at the time the Antichrist arises (RM) The little horn Will be the King of Assyria as prophesied by Isiah and Micah in at least 7 different places, born within the borders of the original empire, probably within 100 miles of its ancient capital of Ashur, and will control an empire that starts out in that same area of the world (JnC) Will have Assyrian ancestry, but probably never even lived in that area of the world, was born in Greece and will control an empire based in Belgium approximately 2200 miles away. As I said, for the most part all of the claims on both sides of the argument are opinions and not facts, so we cannot know for sure who is correct. Most likely we are both wrong because that is how the interpretation of Bible prophecy often works. In general, it is not until after the prophecy has been fulfilled and the fulfillment has been properly explained to us that we can know for sure the interpretation is correct. We should leave this determination to history and let every other person look at the claims made by each side and determine for themselves which lines up more closely with the prophecies made in the Scriptures and which one they choose to believe.

Charlie, Please bear with me for a little while because it will seem like I am going off topic, but I promise that I will tie it all together. In college when you first learn about a subject, you start by taking a general general course that is meant to give you the broad outlines of a subject. For example, learning about sociology, the first course you take will cover the definition of sociology, why it is good to study it, some of the principles used in the study and that sort of thing. As you take more and more advanced classes, the focus of the class narrows and the depth of exploration increases. By the time you are studying for a doctorate, you might have narrowed down to a study of a 50 year period of time in the late bronze age in a particular city. The point is that you start by learning the general landscape of a subject and then you narrow and deepen your focus in order to understand more nuanced points. The same thing is true in studying the Bible and learning about Jesus. You start by learning that God loves you and that He sent Jesus in order to suffer and die for us so that we could be set free from sin. As you progress in your Christian walk, you learn about narrower and deeper topics. Since this is what we do for general learning and our general Christian walk, I suggest that it is also good to do this with Revelation. Rather than focusing on a specific verse or two and really understand what that means, I would rather see you get a good overview of the entire book. Start by getting an audio copy, there are several free versions that are available on the Bible Gateway app if you don't already have one. Then simply listen to the book over and over again. Do not take notes or try to understand any particular passage, but instead try to notice patterns that permeate the structure of the entire book. For example, after listening to this a couple times, you will probably notice that there are a lot of sevens. Seven Churches, Seven Seals, Seven and Trumpets, Seven Bowls. After listening a couple more times, you will notice that there are also seven stars, angels and candlesticks. As you listen more you will find even more sevens. This indicates that seven is an important number and when we do deeper investigations, we should look for even more sevens that might not be as obvious. After this, you can listen closer to the stories of the Churches, Seals, Trumpets and Bowls. There you will see that after the seven churches some crazy stuff happens. There is more crazy stuff that happens after the seven seals and even more crazy stuff after the trumpets and bowls. Perhaps this indicates something that is worth investigating. You might then that it is not just after the seventh in each of these series, but after the sixth seal, trumpet and bowl (but not the church), the text seems to go off an a tangent for a little while. Perhaps this is something else worth investigating. Then you might notice that there are also stories of a woman clothed in the sun and an angel with great authority. These don't have any obvious sevens, so perhaps we need to look at these a little closer and see if they are somehow related. After all this, you might start getting really deep and notice that we have just investigated six things, but the Book of Revelation is all about sevens. Perhaps there is something that you missed and need to search out. I know that I went very deep very quickly with this post, so please don't worry if you don't understand all of it right now. Instead, save this so you can refer to it later and just take the first step by listening to the book 30 or 40 times to get a general lay of the land. Then come back to this post, read the next step and see if you can make sense of that. I hope that you find this helpful.

Charlie, There are many many theories about the white horse, ranging from the white horse being Jesus who was released after Pentecost to spread his church across the world to this being the antichrist at the end of the age. The theory that I like best is the theory that ties the first seal to the visions in Daniel. In Daniel all the end time prophecies were presented as a series of empires in chapters 2, 7 and 8. To me, this indicates that in the broad sweep of history, the empires are demarcations of some sort. As a result of this, the rider on the white horse should be representative of the empire that is supposed to come after the Roman Empire per Revelation 17:2. Of course this then raises the next question of what is this next empire and again there are many theories about this including the Roman Catholic Church, the British Empire, the United Nations, the European Union and many others. When I tried to figure this out, I looked at what tied together the first six empires which were Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medea-Persia, Greece, and Rome. I came up with the following two things that all of these had in common: Each empire was militarily defeated by the previous empire and Each empire controlled the Holy Land It made sense to me that in a succession of empires, each empire would have to defeat the previous empires because that is what empires do. They go out to conquer and they look for the biggest enemy that they can beat. It also made sense that they controlled the Holy Land because this succession of empires is listed in the Bible and the Bible is all about the Jews and the land that God promised to them. As a result, you just need to identify which empire defeated the Roman Empire and controlled the Holy Land in order to identify the seventh and last empire. This is where things get tricky because when people look to find out who defeated the Roman Empire, they always look at who conquered its namesake city. The problem with doing this is that when the city of Rome was sacked, the emperors had already moved the capital, so conquering the city of Rome did not conquer the Roman Empire. The capital was moved from Rome to Constantinople (modern day Istanbul) after Constantine took over, so in order to find out who conquered the Roman Empire, we need to figure out who sacked Constantinople. This of course is a famous battle because throughout its entire history, it was only sacked once and this occurred in 1453 when Emperor Mehmet of the Ottoman Empire took it over in 1453, changing the city from Christian to Muslim and converting the Hagia Sofia from a church to a mosque. The thing that I found most interesting about this was that after the city was sacked, Mehmet rode into the city on a white horse. Since the Ottomans also controlled the Holy Land for hundreds of years, this makes them a very strong candidate for the seventh and last empire. The case for them is also strengthened when you consider what happened when they were defeated. They were defeated after they sided with the central powers in WW1 and lost. This means that they were not defeated by another empire, exactly as would be required if the series of empires were to end with them Additionally, WW1 led directly to WW2 and then the cold war, and the war on terror. Essentially with their defeat peace was taken away from the earth as required for the second horse. Note also that this has greatly accelerated in recent days with the COVID-19 pandemic and the George Floyd protests which not only has taken peace away from the earth, but it has taken peace away from individuals and families. In my opinion, the events described in the Bible are accelerating as we get closer and closer to the return of our Lord.

abcdef, This is interesting. Have you identified the earthquakes that occurred with the sixth and seventh seal, when the sun turned black with the sixth seal or when the fires burned one third of the forest with the first trumpet?

iamlamad, I apologize for misunderstanding what you said. Like I mentioned, I am trying to understand your theory and hopefully I will have gotten it correct this time. Your definitions are: The Great Tribulation is the time starting when the Antichrist defeats the Jews and conquers Jerusalem and enters into a physical temple that the Jews have built. It ends when Jesus returns a third time with the church He raptured seven years earlier. This time period will last 1290 days, and is a subset of the Wrath of God. The Wrath of God consists of all events listed in Revelation between chapters 6 and 20 that occur after the first instance of the word wrath in Revelation 6:16. This includes all seven trumpets, all seven bowls, the entire story of the woman clothed in the sun and the entire story of the angel with authority. Additionally all of the events of the Wrath of God will occur chronologically in the exact order in which they appear in the text. Again, if i am incorrect in my definitions, please correct me. Assuming that these definitions are correct, I would like to understand how you see Daniel 11 fitting into the end times. For example: Does Daniel 11:36 describe the Abomination that occurs 43 months before the end? If so, is the king in Daniel 11:36 the man you call the Antichrist? As one final question, can you tell me what is the hidden or secret plan of God that will be brought to completion with the sound of the seventh trumpet as described in Revelation 10:7? Ok, so if I u

iamlamad, You did not directly reply to this post, but in a different post you stated: GT: the time period during which the Jews and the Church will be trampled by the Gentiles No, it is the CITY that is trampled. I think when the man of sin enters (moves to) Jerusalem, He brings his Gentile armies with him. (He must first BE in Jerusalem to enter the temple there.) I think I understand your definition of the Great Tribulation, however, it does lead to the question of when the Great Tribulation will happen. From your previous posts, I understand that you hold a pre-tribulation rapture position. Given that the Church is raptured before the sixth seal, and per your definition of the Great Tribulation above, the Church will be trampled during the Great Tribulation, the Great Tribulation should occur prior to the sixth seal being opened. I am also assuming that the Great Tribulation will be mentioned somewhere in the Book of Revelation, so it must be part of the first five seals. Can you clarify which of the seals correspond to the Great Tribulation? Since you have not corrected my restatement of your definition of the Wrath of God, I am assuming that my restatement is accurate. Given the huge difference in our definitions, I am sure that you can see why we have different understandings of what will happen during these last few years. From now on, I will try to use your definition when I ask questions so I can understand how things fit together for you. With this in mind, I would like to understand how you see Daniel 11 fitting into the end times. For example: Does Daniel 11:36 describe the Abomination that occurs 43 months before the end? If so, what nation does the king in Daniel 11:36 rule? As one final question, can you tell me what is the hidden or secret plan of God that will be brought to completion with the sound of the seventh trumpet as described in Revelation 10:7?

iamlamad, I want to make sure that I really understand what you are saying, so I apologize if I have this read this incorrectly and ask you to correct my understanding. Is this your definition of the Wrath of God? The Wrath of God consists of all events listed in Revelation between chapters 6 and 20 that occur after the first instance of the word wrath in Revelation 6:16. This includes all seven trumpets, all seven bowls, the entire story of the woman clothed in the sun and the entire story of the angel with authority. Additionally all of the events of the Wrath of God will occur chronologically in the exact order in which they appear in the text. Unfortunately, I did not see where you defined the Great Tribulation. After correcting my understanding of the Wrath of God, could you define the Great Tribulation so that I can understand that as well?

abcdef, If I understand this correctly, here are the definitions: A "resurrection coming" is any time that Jesus came to earth and at least one person who had died physically was resurrected and received a glorified body. A "coming" is any time that Jesus came to Earth, but nobody who died physically was resurrected and received a glorified body. If this is correct, there are two "resurrection comings". The first was when Jesus was resurrected 2000 years ago and the second will be when He comes to rapture His Church. The resurrection for the Great White Throne judgement is not a "resurrection coming" even though some people who are resurrected at that time will receive a glorified body because Jesus does not come to the earth, but rather all the people who were resurrected at this time go to the throne room for judgement. It also means that when Jesus knocked Saul/Paul off his horse on the way to Damascus is an example of a coming because nobody was resurrected and received a glorified body. Is this correct? I have two questions regarding this: Why do you say that the planet is destroyed at the seventh vial? When will the Millennial Kingdom occur? This is the promise to the Jews that they will rule and reign on the earth for 1000 years. It is good to realize that there are multiple timelines. Just as I was encouraged a while back, I would also like to encourage you to examine all of your assumptions when dealing with the Book of Revelation. The first question I would like to ask you regarding this is: Since there are multiple timelines, is there any reason to assume that the Seals, Trumpets and Vials form a single timeline or is it possible that these are three separate timelines? I urge you to think and pray about this and let the Holy Spirit guide you as you search the scriptures. Look for similar events in these series, especially with regard to the seventh of each series and see what you can discover. Do not feel like you have to answer, just be led by the Spirit and honestly examine the scriptures so our Father can lead you. With regard to your mention of verse 8, I am assuming that you are referring to Revelation 15:8 because there is no temple in 16:8 or 20:8. If this is true, then this is saying that no one can enter the temple in heaven until all seven vials are poured out. I do think that we agree that chapters 18 and 19 regarding the angel with authority give another timeline that is parallel to the timeline of the vials. In that case, would you agree that the sounds and events in 19:6 are somewhat similar to the sounds and events in 16:18 so these could be referring to the same event in different timelines, from different perspectives? If so, would you accept that 20:2 describes an event that will occur after the seventh vial, and this tells us that Satan will be chained up for 1000 years with the earth still hanging around after the seventh vial has been poured? Part of the reason that I feel confident in my interpretation is that I have looked for places like this, drawing connections between timelines that give greater insight into the events described.

iamlamad, As I said in my last post to you, your chronology creates more questions than answers. Since confusion often arises when people have different definitions for the same terms, why don't we start over by making sure that we have common definitions. Here are my definitions: The Great Tribulation is the time period during which the Jews and the Church will be trampled by the Gentiles in order for them to be purified as through fire so they can show that they are worthy. This is the last 1260 days as prophesied by Daniel which start 30 days after the Abomination and continue until Jesus (the Messiah) returns to save His people. The Wrath of God is the time period when Jesus punishes those who have been persecuting His people, saving both the Jews and the Church. During this time, Jesus also fulfills the other promises by rapturing the Church, reuniting the twelve tribes of Israel and setting up the Jews as the ruling nation on the earth. This starts with the second coming of Christ and ends with the the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom ruled by the prince described in Ezekiel. How do you define the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God? Until we get on the same page with our definitions, any further discussion is pointless.

abcdef, I do agree that Jesus showed himself to Paul in Acts 9 and that nobody could destroy the temples against the will of God. However, this does not mean that Jesus was present on the earth when the Romans destroyed the temple. In the Old Testament, God uses many different tools to fulfill His will. For example, He used Nebuchadnezzar to destroy the first temple. He used the Egyptians and the slavery of the Jews to show His power to redeem. He used the men of Ai to punish the Jews and get them to root out the evil in their ranks. Jesus does not have to be present in order for God's will to be fulfilled. I agree that Jesus does not come at the Battle of Armageddon and that his return is after the battle is over. However, per Daniel, the Antichrist will conquer Jerusalem at the time of the Abomination and this occurs about 3.5 years before the Battle of Armageddon. The planet cannot be destroyed at this time because we still have to go through the Millennial Kingdom where the Jews rule on the earth for 1000 years. You are correct that Jesus does return to rapture His Church just before the seventh vial. However, based on other comments you made, I think that you are falling into the trap of believing that all the events in Revelation will occur in time in the exact same order that they are written in the book. Please go back and read my earlier posts where I show that this cannot possibly be true because it would require the events of the Great Tribulation to last for a minimum of 11 years and most likely 20 or 30 years. Additionally, if the events were to occur chronologically, this would be the only prophetic book in the entire Bible that followed this pattern.

With regard to proof that the events are not chronological, you just need to look at how many times the same events are mentioned. For example, the rapture is mentioned in Revelation 4:1, 7:9 - 17, 11:11 - 12, and 18:4 - 5. Similarly, the Wrath of God is mentioned in Revelation 4:5, 8:1 - 5, 11:19, 11:13, 14:1 - 2, 16:17 - 21, and 19:6. Note that the Wrath is specified seven times because there are seven different ways that God tells the story of the last days to John so he can write it down for us. If you cannot accept the argument that Revelation can do this because every other prophetical book does this, then perhaps you can accept that putting all these chapters chronologically would require a time span of over 11 years with just the events we are told will have a specific duration. Adding in all the other events will extend this time significantly. How can you explain an end time tribulation spanning 20 or 30 years? If you do not accept either of these two arguments, I am not sure what argument you would accept and there is no point in my pointing out scripture that you chose to ignore. Now this is indeed a bold statement. Why do you think that the time the gentiles will trample the temple and punish the Jews will be the exact same time that God is pouring out the Wrath of God on the Gentiles? Will it really take God 20 or 30 years to defeat an army of people? Thank you for clarifying your position and defining the start of the Wrath of God at the sixth seal. To be clear, you are saying that God's wrath starts with the sixth seal. According to the text then, we need to go through the seventh seal, followed by all seven trumpets, the woman clothed in the sun, and the first six bowls. It is only after all of this stuff happens that Jesus is able to return at the seventh bowl. The reason I am saying this is that Revelation 16:15 tells us that Jesus has still not returned and the only thing left after this is the seventh bowl. Who exactly is pouring out the Wrath of God on the Antichrist and all of his followers? It would not be the angels because they follow Jesus into battle and Jesus has not returned. It can't be the believers because we are told that we would be trampled upon in Revelation 11:1 and that the Gentiles would rule Jerusalem for 42 months in 11:2. Many times arguments like this arise because people have different definitions for the same term. Could you tell me how you define the Wrath of God so I can understand why you say that it starts with the sixth seal? I thought that the Old Testament saints were not resurrected until the End of the Millennial Kingdom. Are you saying that there will be three resurrections, one for the dead in Christ at the rapture, one for the Old Testament saints at the start of the Millennial kingdom so they can attend the wedding and a third at the end of the Millennial kingdom so the wicked can be judged? I thought that other than the one-off resurrection of Jesus, there were only two resurrections one for the Church and the other for everyone else. Your chronology creates more questions than answers. As i mentioned earlier, confusion often arises when people have different definitions for the same terms. Why don't we start over by making sure that we have common definitions. I define the Great Tribulation as the time period during which the Jews and the Church will be trampled by the Gentiles in order for them to be purified as through fire so they can show that they are worthy. This is the last 1260 days as prophesied by Daniel which start 30 days after the Abomination and continue until Jesus returns to save His people. I define the Wrath of God as the time period when Jesus punishes those who have been persecuting His people, saving both the Jews and the Church. During this time, Jesus also fulfills the other promises by rapturing the Church, reuniting the twelve tribes of Israel and setting up the Jews as the ruling nation on the earth. This starts with the second coming of Christ and ends with the the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom ruled by the prince described in Ezekiel. How do you define the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God?