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The little horn of Dan 7 is still Rome. It is a continuation of the Roman beast. The three kings who were subdued were also Roman horns.

The beast can only be Rome. Rome is the iron in Dan 2 that rules over the children of Israel until Jerusalem is restored. Rome is the 4th beast of Dan 7 that rules the children of Israel. The 4th beast nation of Dan 2&7 is the beast in the Revelation. It is not possible that the beast is not Rome.

Dan 11:1-4, Says that this is about Persia and Greece. That is the silver and brass of the Dan 2 statue. This vision shows Antiochus and his activities after the silver to brass transition. It's not future to us. History about Greece and the children of Israel. Not future to us. Dan 12:1-2, Is about Jesus, the first resurrection, and the time during and after the 70 AD fall of Jerusalem.

When you seed clouds, it is to make rain. The 2 witnesses, American generals you said, can cause it to not rain, any time that they wish. So how do they stop it from raining in whole the middle east any time that they wish to?

Dan 2:40-43, The iron nation, Rome, rules over the children of Israel until Jerusalem is restored. There are no other gentile nations that rule over Jerusalem and the people of Israel after the toes end. Since Rome does not rule over the people of Israel now and no other nation does, what you say cannot be true.

The Rev 10&11 scroll is sweet and then bitter. It is sweet because Jerusalem is restored to Israel. It is bitter because after it is restored Jerusalem falls. This is shown several places. The 2 witnesses and the seals/trumpets which are the same timeline. They are shown to be the same timeline by the beast that ascends from the abyss at the 5th trumpet who then kills the 2 witnesses. The 7 vials/bowls. The kings of the east cross the Euphrates headed for Jerusalem The Rev 20 timeline. The Magog armies attack Jerusalem. Each of these indicates that Jerusalem is restored to Israel and then falls to the kings of the east from across the Euphrates, Iran and it's allies. Each of these examples are basically the same timeline, but are shown from different points of view. --------- The answer to your question is that Jerusalem will fall to Iran and it's allies Magog. After that, 3 1/2 days later, the resur/rapt will happen and then all human life on this planet will end because of the 7th vial/bowl fire from heaven in Rev 20. The reason that this planet is destroyed is that the people of Israel will be destroyed. If the planet were allowed to continue, Israel would be absorbed into the gentile nations and cease to be a unique genetic race. The salt of the earth would be no more. ------------- In Dan 2, the stone strikes the statue after Jerusalem is restored. The stone is not the kingdom. The stone is Jesus coming for the kingdom at the resur/rapt. After that, the last judgment takes place as the wheat/chaff judgment scene. The Pentecost kingdom began about an inch after the iron began. The iron began in 63 BC. The Pentecost kingdom began in 33 AD. The kingdom causes the iron to divide into the separate legs, toes, and clay. The Dan 2 statue also parallels Rev 20, the seals/trumpets/2 witnesses, and the 7 vial/bowls. ----- I will answer any and all questions on this. I hope that you will press for the most extreme details in this matter.

There have been many prophetic theories in the past. Many have been around for centuries. But there are some things in our present situation that are different now. The most important event is that Jerusalem has been restored to the control of the Israel military forces, that happened in 1967. When confirmed by scripture, this event becomes an important anchor in the timeline. Reading books and writings from before WW 2, it was always "the" major question that was asked by everyone. Will Jerusalem be restored to the children of Israel? But now we know, 1967. This question has been asked by Israel since the captivity in Babylon. The answer is in the Dan 2 statue and the Dan 7, 4 beasts. In Dan 2, it is when the iron and clay toes end. The statue timeline begins when Jerusalem falls to Babylon. It ends when the domination of the gentile nations over Israel and Jerusalem ceases and Jerusalem is restored to Israel. In Dan 7, the same nations are seen as beasts. The first beast's timeline begins when Jerusalem falls. The timeline ends when the time of the 4th beast comes to an end. Since there are no foreign armies controlling Jerusalem, it means that the time of the statue and the beasts has ended. ------ All the Revelation prophecies must agree with these 2 Daniel timelines. This is done by finding the timeline anchors in events or entities in each Revelation or Daniel timeline. Timeline anchors might be the birth of Jesus in 1 AD ish. The first or second resurrection. The day of Pentecost, The succession of the gentile nations, The changes in the beast Roman nation. The destruction of the 70 AD Jerusalem, etc.. Most of these events can be dated because they are history now. For example, we know that Rome invaded Israel in 63 BC. That would be when the 4th beast came to power over the children of Israel and the iron of the Dan 2 statue began. History confirms the date, so we can be absolutely sure that it is true and confirmed. Simple right? Not a chance. That is because of how the football bounces. There are some who would even debate that statement about the iron starting in 63 BC. In the end, we must make up our own mind. ----- Many of the older theories have made there influences into modern versions and they just keep on hanging on. I think that they all have some truth. One thing that they cannot do is fit into the Dan 2&7 prophecies. Specifically, that the iron nation of Dan 2 is continual and does not stop until the end. It changes form and diminishes in power, but does not end and then start up again. This is a major problem for pretrib theories. There is a great deal of misconception out there and confusion. What I did was start all over again from scratch. I started with Dan 2, the simplest prophetic timeline and went from there. Almost all of the symbols and images are from OT passages and their meanings are already known.

I think of these discussions like an American football, you kick it and when it lands you never know which way that it will bounce. Searching the scriptures and discussing them is always a "win-win" situation.

Zech 4:1-14, 11-14, tells who the 2 witnesses are.

Understand that all these prophecies must fit together perfectly to be valid. One example would be that all the theories must match with Dan 2 and Dan 7. Dan 2 is the simplest. Dan 7 adds details. How would the story of the 2 witnesses match up in the Dan 2 timeline? Where would it fit in, and how? It's just something to think about.

No, I didn't say that. I said that, it does not say, that it does not rain for the entire time of the 2 witnesses. It says that they have to power to stop the rain when they want to. Just because they have the power to do it, doesn't mean that they will do it. They will just do it when they want to. You said the the 2 witnesses were American generals who were in charge and that their orders to "fire" were the orders to "open fire" on the enemies. How do the 2 generals stop the rain from falling?

I have a friend down the road who is an atheist and denies the Father and Jesus, maybe he is the Antichrist. Denying the Father and Jesus is not the only requirement for him. The Antichrist destroys Jerusalem with his armies leaving it desolate.

2 Thess 2:4, Titus did that in 70 AD Jerusalem. After Jerusalem fell in 70 AD, Titus and the Roman armies chased believing Israel unto the gentile nations which was a continuation of the times of the gentiles in Dan 2&7. This time it is the armies from across the Euphrates that conquer Jerusalem since the Roman beast/Vatican has deceived them. Ezek 28, Is about the king of Tyre. It is not about our present Roman Antichrist. They are far apart in time. There are many Antichrists and souls in Satan's image. The gentiles kings who attacked or ruled over the children of Israel are all Antichrist images. This is true of the Dan 7, 4th beast Roman Empire. The Roman empire beast lasts centuries and is not just one man. The Rev 13 beast is the same as the 4th beast in Dan 7. It is a nation and not just one man. It has a king, yes. The nation of the Roman Empire died and was changed into the "image" Roman Empire nation, that continued the times (ToGs) of the gentiles. Isa 14:28, Is about the children of Israel returning from Babylon. It eems to have no application to the present Antichrist. "We have no king but Caesar". The whole world of Israel was dumbfounded when the Roman Empire ended, but then there was an 8th head, who was one of the 7. A beast nation that died and was revived in the image of the first beast Rev 13. The 4th beast of Dan 7 is a nation that has a king. That king is Caesar. Caesar is the nation and the nation is Caesar. They are inseparable. The mark of the 4th beast is the mark of a man, Caesar. I'm glad that you have studied, that makes it easier to exchange ideas. The pretrib theories fail on the timing of the Antichrist issues. The Antichrist was revealed centuries ago.

There are several time periods that are considered "God's Wrath". There are 2 "Day of the Lord". One is the 70 AD time period and the other is the final Day of the Lord where the elements melt. Mixing them up distorts the prophecies. Most people have them confused. The fig tree in Rev 6:13 is referring to the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem. That is one of the days of the Lord Rev 6:17. Both days of the Lord come as a thief to those who are not looking. 1 Thess 5:2 is the 70 AD day. Rev 16:15, is referring to the final day, where the elements melt, also known as the 7th vial/bowl. 1 Thess 5:9, This period of wrath is the eternal one where souls are judged at the judgment of Rev 20:11-15. This verse has been slanted by some to mean something different than the eternal judgement. Some say that it refers to the resur/rapt, which is not mentioned in the chapter/passage. This happened in 70 AD ish when Titus sacrificed in the temple. It's not a false Messianic age at all. After the sacrifice Titus finished destroying the temple, the people of Jerusalem, and Israel. Later he became Caesar. I can prove that Caesar and the Bishop of Rome are the Antichrist, but it will cause you to alter your timeline, if you want to know.

Yes, it still rains in those nations. But you are thinking of material rain and not thinking of what the symbolism of the rain is. What does the rain mean in symbolic terms? Have you ever heard the song, "There share be showers of blessings"? To the desert regions rain is life, water from the heavens, the water of life. -- What are the waters that keep us alive spiritually? The river of Life that flows from the fountain of God? Jer 17:13, Jer 2:13. Then our rain to keep our spirits alive in our living relationship with God/Jesus is the blessings of the Holy Spirit. -- We today get the spiritual rain from 2 primary sources, love and the scriptures, just as they have for centuries through time. The 2 witnesses have the power to show God's love and the scriptures of life or they can withdraw the scriptures of life that point to Jesus' love and eternal life. Who was given the scriptures and holds to them even to this day? Israel, not 2 people, but the children of Israel, the nation. ---- The abilities of the 2 witnesses are all related to the scriptures and seeking a living relationship with God/Jesus and His love. The plagues are painful sores on the souls of people for the sin of rejecting the scriptures. There is no relief for their guilt and heartbreak. No escape from their hell on earth. (Also see Rev 16:1-2) The waters turned to blood shows the corruption of the flow of the river of life from God's throne, the blessings that keeps all creation alive, good and evil. (Also see Rev 16:4-5) ----- The 2 witnesses are the children of Israel who hold scriptures, the Law and the Prophets. When the children of Israel are diminished and destroyed, then the scriptures, that hold the witness of Jesus and the eternal life living relationship with God are diminished and destroyed. Satan hates Israel. He wants to destroy Israel, God's eternal love, and the scriptures that show the way, the rain that keeps the soul alive. That is why he has always wanted to destroy Israel. But when people diminish Israel, then they destroy the very gospel that is the relief and spiritual joy that their soul seeks for, needs. Their wounds and sores from sin and guilt could be healed, but they have set out to destroy the only source of that healing. It does not say, that it does not rain, during the entire time of the 2 witnesses, it says they they have the power during that time, if they wish to use it.

What scripture says that the Antichrist claims to be the Messiah? The religious leaders proclaimed to Rome that Caesar was their king. They were the official leaders of Israel. It was as if the government, who represented the people, pledged their allegiance to Caesar. They spoke for the whole nation. Caesar is still with us today as the bishop of Rome.

Where is the scripture that says that the Antichrist will be "anointed"? Where does it say that "he will be anointed king of Israel"? Where is it that he will be anointed "by the false prophet"? Where does it say that there will be "a ceremony on the temple mount"? I agree, the "peace and safety" that was promised in the kingdom relationship with God, was the promise of a living relationship with God that could not be undone. Rom 8:39 The "peace and safety" that is in 1 Thess 5:3, is related to the material world and the wars revolving around the children of Israel, you might agree. In v. 4 it says that "that day" should not over take you as a thief. What "that day" is he talking about? The day when the Antichrist destroys Jerusalem? Caesar destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD. Paul is writing that the people should be aware of the coming 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem. It was only 20 ish years away. It was predicted by Jesus and meant to warn the Christians of the impending military actions of Rome. The "peace and safety" that Paul may have been referring to was when the Roman army withdrew for a period and then returned to surround the city full of Passover celebrations. When the Roman armies withdrew it was "peace and safety", when they returned it was sudden travail. The time period of the "peace and safety" is something that is not specific in this passage. Can you produce a scripture that is specific as to the length of this time period of "peace and safety"?

Which Bible are you using?

I had a good discussion with you. I don't think that it was unproductive. I thought that we were just getting to the good parts after stating our positions. Just remember this, that when you see Jerusalem falling to the 6th trumpet forces that are presently coming across the Euphrates River, that you are witnessing the end of the story of the 2 witnesses and that the resur/rapt is about to happen. May God bless you my brother.

I agree If he is not anointed, then you should stop saying that he is, unless you can produce a scripture that says that. John 19:15, "...., We have no king but Caesar." Caesar came in his own name, and the Jews of Jesus' time proclaimed him as king of the Jews. Where does it say that the Antichrist will claim to be the Messiah?

The reason that I see the description as the 2 witnesses being killed in the city of Jerusalem is because that is what it says. If some might say that the 2 witnesses are killed outside Jerusalem, they could be going beyond what is specific in this Rev 11 passage. Yes, the impact of the 2 witnesses is planet wide, but as to them being killed, the description does not go beyond Jerusalem. ---- As to whether someone's belief is false or not, I have been wrong on some things before, I would be very cautious about accusing a brother, unless your own beliefs are completely perfect, which as humans, they are usually not completely perfect.

I am far from a full preterist. Matt 24:30-31. The sign of the Son of man coming for the resurrection is the gathering of the children of Israel to restore Jerusalem. That restoration was in 1967. The trumpet that sounded for that gathering was the 5th and not the 7th, the 7th is about to sound. Jesus did come at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. He came as God to destroy the temple and Jerusalem. But it was not a resurrection coming. That coming for the kingdom is about to happen.

Would you consider that they could be the church in Jerusalem? I agree, The days of earth are dark right now, and getting darker. Does the death of these 2 witnesses cause the resu/rapt to happen? Why? I agree. They are preaching the new covenant gospel. Yes, theirs is an urgent last call for the people of earth. But why is it so urgent?

Matt 24:29, Yes, the stars are the children of Israel being killed after 70 AD by the Roman beast nation.

The 2 witnesses do effect the entire planet. But what I was saying, was that the 2 witnesses being killed was only in Jerusalem and not planet wide. It seems specific to me that they are in the material Jerusalem. I agree that they are the son(s) of God. But we have different definitions on who they are specifically. It appears to me that the majority of people in Jerusalem were and are at this time still rejecting the new covenant gospel. This would also fit the description of this present Jerusalem being spiritually called Sodom and Egypt.