NonProfitProphet

5 hours ago, JustPassingThru said:

...the "point" you are presenting does not have any Biblical authority...

Thank you- that was my point, that the pre-trib narrative has no biblical authority. My presentation was an accumulation of pre-tribber doctrinal beliefs and a summery that’s begs the question, “Is there any biblical support for this?” The answer is obviously “No!” 

3 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Part of following Christ includes sacrificing unsanctified familial attachments:

Mat 10:34-39  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (35)  For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. (36)  And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Do you really think this means we are to kill them? The pre-trib doctrine says we will return as an army to kill all the unsaved to avenge God. 

5 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Then I guess you are making your own observations and you have your own interpretations. Not what the Bible has to say. 

Again, you misunderstood what I wrote... I am not making my own observations, I am “recapping” the pre-trib rapture doctrine. But yes, we agree that it has no biblical merit. Thank you.

So no one is really concerned that you are claiming to be an instrument in killing millions of people and leaving their bodies to rot and be eaten by animals?! This is what pre-trib doctrine is about- this is part of your reward that you claim. 
 

Whether you “read the scripture literally” or not, no where does it teach that Christians will be used of God to kill the rest of mankind. Why would a bride be given this assignment? I’ve literally had pre-tribbers tell me they were looking forward to killing me when they “return” as an army. That’s ludicrous! God insists we love our enemies, but forces us to kill His enemies for Him?! Really?!

10 hours ago, JustPassingThru said:

Don't just take a few moments, ...dedicate your whole life to Jesus and prayer for them, ...that way "after" the preTrib rapture, ...when they come looking for you and don't find you, ...they'll probably go to your church looking for you.

What they will find is not you, but those that were left behind, ...then in a panic they'll probably go to other churches and find the same thing, ...what they will hear in every church is the lament, "Why, ...oh why, ...didn't we believe what the Bible said, ...like those who are missing?"

Keep praying for "whatever it might take" and for the "Light of the Glorious Gospel to shine in their minds" to bring them to Jesus, ...just might be your Rapture will be the "whatever" it takes to bring them to Jesus!

Please notice after the beginning of the Tribulation John sees an enumerable number of saved people, 

 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.  Rev 7:9-10

Some or one, ...of that great multitude, ...could be members of our family or friends, ...how big is your God?

 

Also, we aren't going to be "dummer" in Heaven with our Lord, ...than were are here presently, on this ball of dust, ...do you really believe we will stop praying for our unsaved family and friends when we can take our requests directly before God "our" Father, ...sitting on His Throne ...in His Throne Room of Heaven?????????

Thanks for responding, but you missed the point I was making. No worries, have a nice day.

12 hours ago, missmuffet said:

 If a person reads the Bible literally then yes pre trib is what the Bible teaches.  Everyone on this earth needs to make a choice of where they will spend their eternity. Heaven or hell. 

It’s nice that you finally responded, but nothing you wrote has the least bit to do with the observation I’ve made.

This is what I’ve been able to understand of the pre-trib rapture movement:

1. The church is the bride, 

2. The church will be raptured to circumvent being a victim to the tribulation AND a witness of God's wrath,

3. The church/bride is made clean and pure and is married to Christ,

4. Christ takes His clean and pure wife on a honeymoon trip back to earth to kill people who rejected Him...

    A. Some of these people are relatives, friends, and even fellow church members who fooled us.

    B. This scenario reveals that the clean, pure, innocent bride will be transformed into a killing machine executing God’s wrath and participating in the biggest blood bath of all time. All the while, remaining pure and clean.

Again, this is based on what pre-tribbers say the scripture teaches- the words I’ve used may seem a bit harsh, but are not contradictory to the pre-trib doctrine.

Take a few moments to consider that loved one in your life who is not saved... imagine telling them that if they don’t accept Christ, you will return some day to kill them. Then take another moment to ask, “Is this really what the Bible teaches?”

4 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

You have misunderstood the word first resurrection, thats why i made this thread :

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/233771-the-word-first-resurrection-in-rev-20-which-mislead-many/

 

You’re novice analysis assumes believers will leave the earth before the tribulation; therefore, you have to create an explanation for it. You didn’t write anything that makes sense for the sake of the topic.

The truth is, nothing in scripture says this will happen before the tribulation. In order to accept your teaching, one has to already believe in a pre-trib rapture. 
 

BTW, it’s not I who misunderstood the word “first.”
 

On 4/20/2020 at 3:03 AM, R. Hartono said:

The wise virgins shall be saved alive and shall ever be with the Lord.

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

While on the earth the foolish virgins left behind shall be overcome by the beast :

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

So This explains there are two groups of people in heaven at the time of Great Tribulation :

1. The Great Multitude of 1 Thes 4:16 in living BODIES.

2. The SOULS under the Altar of the dead martyrs overcome by antichrist in Rev 13:7, they were beheaded in the Great Tribulation. These souls came one by one until their number is accomplished.

The Bible speaks very specifically about who is in the first resurrection... the tribulation martyrs; the second resurrection is for “the rest of the dead.”

Did John misunderstand when he penned Revelation chapter 20? Shouldn’t he have written that the martyrs were the second resurrection and the “rest of the dead,” the third?

If Thessalonians specifically states that the first resurrection is before the tribulation, that makes three resurrections. The pre-trib resurrection and the post-trib resurrection can’t both be the “first,” as there is a period of time and significant events that separate them. This is true of the post-trib and millennial resurrections, as well. 

There’s obviously three specific groups and times in mind when referring to the resurrections:

3. The post-mill “rest of the dead,”

2. The pre-mill/post-trib tribulation martyrs, and

1. the “we-don’t-think-God-will-watch-over-or-guard-us-during-the-tribulation” group.

On 4/6/2020 at 11:23 AM, Diaste said:

The rapture could take place before that, but certainly by then.”" - Dr. F Kenton Beshore

This guy, Beshore, supported the failed rapture prophecies of Hal Lindsey, but explained that the “length of time” was incorrect. 

He, Beshore, was also arrested and charged with bribing the father of a 14-year old girl who was molested by a doctor to not testify against the doctor.

He was also inducted in the “Encyclopedia of American Loons.” This, obviously, is not an honor. He really doesn’t have a good track record regarding honesty, an even temperament, and theological prowess. 
 

Even if I knew our Lord would return in 2021, I wouldn’t jump on this guy’s bandwagon to tell the world.

13 hours ago, missmuffet said:

I posted a verse that obviously supports the fact that believers will not go through the 7 year tribulation. I will post the whole verse.

Revelation 3: 10 

 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

 

Perhaps you didn’t see my question, as I’m sure you wouldn’t just ignore a brother-in-Christ.

In Revelation 3:10, the phrase keep you from bears no resemblance to the Greek text. The English word “keep” is not a translation of the Greek word tereo. The actual meaning of that word is “to attend to/take care of” or “to guard (by keeping an eye upon).” The root word means “to be a spectator/to watch.”

The English word “from” is not a good translation either. It is the Greek word, ek. John uses it in Revelation 16:21: “...men blasphemed God because of the plague of hail...” It is best translated in the context of 3:10 as “because of.” Its consistent with John’s writing style.

Consider Psalm 91, I believe this details this concept of “guarding you because” of a plague, or activities of God’s wrath:

2 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

I have been asking that basic question here for the last 16 years or so, so yes, I guess somehow we missed it, since no one will point it out to us!

LOL. There does seem to be a measure of avoidance regarding that question, in general. I’ve found that even when people see that the original texts contradict their theology, they move on. On other forums, they usually respond with insults, accusations, and anger. I suppose being ignored is preferable.
 

What they can’t seem to understand is that I once believed as they did until I spent an extreme amount of effort researching it so that it would stand up against any scrutiny- I aimed to provide conclusive scriptural evidence that could not be refuted by anyone... Shockingly, the scripture just wouldn’t conform to my theology, so I decided it would be easier to follow scripture and not interpretations of lacking translations.

The hardest part is seeing people forcibly ignore scripture to hold on to their errant doctrines.  

5 hours ago, missmuffet said:

I posted a verse that obviously supports the fact that believers will not go through the 7 year tribulation. I will post the whole verse.

Revelation 3: 10 

 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

 

 

Well, there’s the problem... your version and mine say two different things. (Mine is from the koine Greek text)

ὅτι ἐτήρησας τὸνλόγον τῆς ὑπομονῆς μουκἀγώ σε τηρήσω ἐκ τῆςὥρας τοῦ πειρασμοῦ τῆςμελλούσης ἔρχεσθαι ἐπὶ τῆςοἰκουμένης ὅλης πειράσαιτοὺς κατοικοῦντας ἐπὶ τῆςγῆς
 

I believe I see, in your translation, what you might be using to support your view... One of the words that replaces the word from the ancient text is the word “keep.” The word “from”is similarly mistranslated, but should follow the preceding context.

What do YOU believe the root meaning of “keep” to be? 

1 minute ago, missmuffet said:

Read the verse.

Wow! For someone who likes to share tons of scripture, you sure are being quite silent when someone asks for a specific perspective on a specific verse. I can read it a thousand times, but doing so will not tell me what you think. That’s all I asked for.

10 hours ago, missmuffet said:

True believers will not go through the 7 year tribulation.

Revelation 3:10

 

I was a bit confused on what you were saying- you keep saying “true believers will not go through the tribulation,” but you have previously only followed that with unrelated scripture. Now you have something that seems to relate...
 

What in Revelation 3:10 tells us we will not go through the tribulation?

9 hours ago, missmuffet said:

True believers in Jesus Christ will not go through the great tribulation. 

1 Corinthians 15: 50-54 

 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: 

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18

 

¹³ But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

¹⁵ For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort 

 

 

 

Did I miss in the scripture you shared where it indicates true believers will not go through the tribulation? 

17 hours ago, Figure of eighty said:

How has god helped you with your empathic abilities?

Well, I think He’s prodded me... I mean, “prompted” me to come out of my comfort zone and to gently confront people, lead them into talking, crying, & venting to calm them and guide them back to focusing their emotional energy to either solve a problem, face a challenge, or deal with an inaccurate perception. Sometimes, it can be a way to detect danger for me or my family in a church.

On 6/18/2019 at 2:16 AM, Worship Warriors said:

How do you explain the triune God to a Muslim? they think that Christian are worshiping 3 gods. here is definition :

 One being

 

within the One being are 3 persons

 

 

 

One being in 3 persons. . Being and persons is not the same thing.

 

 

 

Being- the essence that makes something what it is .for example, there are celestial beings, there are human beings, and there is one divine being. The being of God is what makes God God. He is omnipotent omnipresent all powerful

 

 

 

Person-the essence that makes someone who he is. The personality of someone. Within my one being is one person. Within the one being of God are three persons. The three persons are co-equal and co eternal. What does this tell me about God?

 

 

 

God is a being in communion within Himself. He is a relational God. You can’t say that God is love unless there is a lover, a beloved and the Spirit of love between them

 

 

 

My definition of the trinity

 

 

 

One personal God

 

 

 

 

 

One personal God. But He can work and function in three different ways at the same time: the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

 

I in 3: ONE BEING but the three persons are all sharing the same one being.

 

3 in 1: In the ONE BEING, there are three persons.

 

 

 

Because the three persons of the Godhead are all sharing the same being, I can say God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

 

 

 

This is what makes Christianity so unique compared to other religions. The triune God is a personal God. He is relational. He wants to be known. That’s the nature of love. Christianity is an encounter with a personal God who has so transformed your heart that now you want to live radically for Him out of love.

 

 

 

 

I’ve found it more effective, if the topic has presented itself, to present the image of a married couple:

According to the Bible they are “one,” yet they are two people. They are a singular couple- sounds like an oxymoron, but the truth is they are plural but functioning as one.

Deuteronomy 6:4 is fascinating- It states that יְהוָ֥ה is Elohim (plural: gods), and then immediately confirms יְהוָ֥ה is ONE. (Singular, but in the sense of being united, still alluding to the plurality within a single deity.

Elohim spoke to Himself as plural, and made man in “our” image- Singular; a singular image to depict a “we.” 

On 4/11/2020 at 1:05 AM, not an echo said:

On the basis of the way the book of The Revelation opens (Rev. 1:1-3), Christians, even in John's day, would have had good reason to be on alert for some of its prophecies to begin to be fulfilled.  We know that for most any "prophecy" (Rev. 1:3), there is the time when it will begin to be fulfilled.  What "things" were "at hand" to "come to pass," or to begin to be fulfilled?  I do know what I am seeing concerning this.  I'm just wondering what some other brothers and sisters in Christ are seeing concerning this.

I see, in these first 3 verses, an introduction of sorts to the visions, not the events depicted in the visions.

Verse one mentions “things which must shortly come to pass.” This doesn’t seem to be the best translation of what is said. One may easily understand this as saying, “must quickly happen,” referring to the presentation of the visions of the revelation, not the actual future events. My point here is that the visions span a period of at least 1007 years, conservatively. God knew these events would not all happen “shortly,” from John’s time of writing, but rather, covered a huge period of time “quickly-” ...or abbreviated.

Verse 3 says something is “at hand.” What is at hand? The time! Time for what? The context of the verse clearly reveals that it’s time, not get ready for these events, but to understand the prophecy. The time to understand this prophetic revelation happened with the penning of the visions. 
 

The Holy Spirit would not have had John write something down as an imminent event when He Himself knew wouldn’t begin happening for 2000 years.
 

Addendum:
The alternative interpretation could be this: Many believe the visions contain events that began in John’s time- namely, the dragon’s pursuit of the woman’s offspring- That would be an appropriate warning for that time for followers of Christ and would fit an “imminent” unfolding of events.

On 1/2/2020 at 4:06 PM, Figure of eighty said:

I always thought for those that have the gift to discern spirits they either have experiences with the super natural at a young age or they just see them in the spirtual realm. 

 

I wonder can you still discern spirits without seeing spirits?

It can vary... I know of people who see them clearly; I’ve only seen them when I close my eyes, but can not describe what I saw. I am almost always alerted to their presence, if strong and active. I am an empath, so I get very agitated when I am near them because I “feel” them. I’m typically sensitive to certain ones that cause anger, deception, and other similar sorts of symptoms.