NonProfitProphet

Thank you- that was my point, that the pre-trib narrative has no biblical authority. My presentation was an accumulation of pre-tribber doctrinal beliefs and a summery that’s begs the question, “Is there any biblical support for this?” The answer is obviously “No!”

Do you really think this means we are to kill them? The pre-trib doctrine says we will return as an army to kill all the unsaved to avenge God.

Again, you misunderstood what I wrote... I am not making my own observations, I am “recapping” the pre-trib rapture doctrine. But yes, we agree that it has no biblical merit. Thank you.

So no one is really concerned that you are claiming to be an instrument in killing millions of people and leaving their bodies to rot and be eaten by animals?! This is what pre-trib doctrine is about- this is part of your reward that you claim. Whether you “read the scripture literally” or not, no where does it teach that Christians will be used of God to kill the rest of mankind. Why would a bride be given this assignment? I’ve literally had pre-tribbers tell me they were looking forward to killing me when they “return” as an army. That’s ludicrous! God insists we love our enemies, but forces us to kill His enemies for Him?! Really?!

Thanks for responding, but you missed the point I was making. No worries, have a nice day.

It’s nice that you finally responded, but nothing you wrote has the least bit to do with the observation I’ve made.

This is what I’ve been able to understand of the pre-trib rapture movement: 1. The church is the bride, 2. The church will be raptured to circumvent being a victim to the tribulation AND a witness of God's wrath, 3. The church/bride is made clean and pure and is married to Christ, 4. Christ takes His clean and pure wife on a honeymoon trip back to earth to kill people who rejected Him... A. Some of these people are relatives, friends, and even fellow church members who fooled us. B. This scenario reveals that the clean, pure, innocent bride will be transformed into a killing machine executing God’s wrath and participating in the biggest blood bath of all time. All the while, remaining pure and clean. Again, this is based on what pre-tribbers say the scripture teaches- the words I’ve used may seem a bit harsh, but are not contradictory to the pre-trib doctrine. Take a few moments to consider that loved one in your life who is not saved... imagine telling them that if they don’t accept Christ, you will return some day to kill them. Then take another moment to ask, “Is this really what the Bible teaches?”

You’re novice analysis assumes believers will leave the earth before the tribulation; therefore, you have to create an explanation for it. You didn’t write anything that makes sense for the sake of the topic. The truth is, nothing in scripture says this will happen before the tribulation. In order to accept your teaching, one has to already believe in a pre-trib rapture. BTW, it’s not I who misunderstood the word “first.”

The Bible speaks very specifically about who is in the first resurrection... the tribulation martyrs; the second resurrection is for “the rest of the dead.” Did John misunderstand when he penned Revelation chapter 20? Shouldn’t he have written that the martyrs were the second resurrection and the “rest of the dead,” the third? If Thessalonians specifically states that the first resurrection is before the tribulation, that makes three resurrections. The pre-trib resurrection and the post-trib resurrection can’t both be the “first,” as there is a period of time and significant events that separate them. This is true of the post-trib and millennial resurrections, as well. There’s obviously three specific groups and times in mind when referring to the resurrections: 3. The post-mill “rest of the dead,” 2. The pre-mill/post-trib tribulation martyrs, and 1. the “we-don’t-think-God-will-watch-over-or-guard-us-during-the-tribulation” group.

This guy, Beshore, supported the failed rapture prophecies of Hal Lindsey, but explained that the “length of time” was incorrect. He, Beshore, was also arrested and charged with bribing the father of a 14-year old girl who was molested by a doctor to not testify against the doctor. He was also inducted in the “Encyclopedia of American Loons.” This, obviously, is not an honor. He really doesn’t have a good track record regarding honesty, an even temperament, and theological prowess. Even if I knew our Lord would return in 2021, I wouldn’t jump on this guy’s bandwagon to tell the world.

Perhaps you didn’t see my question, as I’m sure you wouldn’t just ignore a brother-in-Christ. In Revelation 3:10, the phrase keep you from bears no resemblance to the Greek text. The English word “keep” is not a translation of the Greek word tereo. The actual meaning of that word is “to attend to/take care of” or “to guard (by keeping an eye upon).” The root word means “to be a spectator/to watch.” The English word “from” is not a good translation either. It is the Greek word, ek. John uses it in Revelation 16:21: “...men blasphemed God because of the plague of hail...” It is best translated in the context of 3:10 as “because of.” Its consistent with John’s writing style. Consider Psalm 91, I believe this details this concept of “guarding you because” of a plague, or activities of God’s wrath: 7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you. 8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked. 9 If you say, “The LORD is my refuge,” and you make the Most High your dwelling, 10 no harm will overtake you, no disaster will come near your tent. 11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways; All I ask is that you consider the original language of scripture, and understand the situation depicted in Psalm 91. They both say the same thing.

LOL. There does seem to be a measure of avoidance regarding that question, in general. I’ve found that even when people see that the original texts contradict their theology, they move on. On other forums, they usually respond with insults, accusations, and anger. I suppose being ignored is preferable. What they can’t seem to understand is that I once believed as they did until I spent an extreme amount of effort researching it so that it would stand up against any scrutiny- I aimed to provide conclusive scriptural evidence that could not be refuted by anyone... Shockingly, the scripture just wouldn’t conform to my theology, so I decided it would be easier to follow scripture and not interpretations of lacking translations. The hardest part is seeing people forcibly ignore scripture to hold on to their errant doctrines.

Well, there’s the problem... your version and mine say two different things. (Mine is from the koine Greek text) ὅτι ἐτήρησας τὸνλόγον τῆς ὑπομονῆς μουκἀγώ σε τηρήσω ἐκ τῆςὥρας τοῦ πειρασμοῦ τῆςμελλούσης ἔρχεσθαι ἐπὶ τῆςοἰκουμένης ὅλης πειράσαιτοὺς κατοικοῦντας ἐπὶ τῆςγῆς I believe I see, in your translation, what you might be using to support your view... One of the words that replaces the word from the ancient text is the word “keep.” The word “from”is similarly mistranslated, but should follow the preceding context. What do YOU believe the root meaning of “keep” to be?

Wow! For someone who likes to share tons of scripture, you sure are being quite silent when someone asks for a specific perspective on a specific verse. I can read it a thousand times, but doing so will not tell me what you think. That’s all I asked for.

I was a bit confused on what you were saying- you keep saying “true believers will not go through the tribulation,” but you have previously only followed that with unrelated scripture. Now you have something that seems to relate... What in Revelation 3:10 tells us we will not go through the tribulation?

Did I miss in the scripture you shared where it indicates true believers will not go through the tribulation?

Well, I think He’s prodded me... I mean, “prompted” me to come out of my comfort zone and to gently confront people, lead them into talking, crying, & venting to calm them and guide them back to focusing their emotional energy to either solve a problem, face a challenge, or deal with an inaccurate perception. Sometimes, it can be a way to detect danger for me or my family in a church.

I’ve found it more effective, if the topic has presented itself, to present the image of a married couple: According to the Bible they are “one,” yet they are two people. They are a singular couple- sounds like an oxymoron, but the truth is they are plural but functioning as one. Deuteronomy 6:4 is fascinating- It states that יְהוָ֥ה is Elohim (plural: gods), and then immediately confirms יְהוָ֥ה is ONE. (Singular, but in the sense of being united, still alluding to the plurality within a single deity. Elohim spoke to Himself as plural, and made man in “our” image- Singular; a singular image to depict a “we.”

I see, in these first 3 verses, an introduction of sorts to the visions, not the events depicted in the visions. Verse one mentions “things which must shortly come to pass.” This doesn’t seem to be the best translation of what is said. One may easily understand this as saying, “must quickly happen,” referring to the presentation of the visions of the revelation, not the actual future events. My point here is that the visions span a period of at least 1007 years, conservatively. God knew these events would not all happen “shortly,” from John’s time of writing, but rather, covered a huge period of time “quickly-” ...or abbreviated. Verse 3 says something is “at hand.” What is at hand? The time! Time for what? The context of the verse clearly reveals that it’s time, not get ready for these events, but to understand the prophecy. The time to understand this prophetic revelation happened with the penning of the visions. The Holy Spirit would not have had John write something down as an imminent event when He Himself knew wouldn’t begin happening for 2000 years. Addendum: The alternative interpretation could be this: Many believe the visions contain events that began in John’s time- namely, the dragon’s pursuit of the woman’s offspring- That would be an appropriate warning for that time for followers of Christ and would fit an “imminent” unfolding of events.

It can vary... I know of people who see them clearly; I’ve only seen them when I close my eyes, but can not describe what I saw. I am almost always alerted to their presence, if strong and active. I am an empath, so I get very agitated when I am near them because I “feel” them. I’m typically sensitive to certain ones that cause anger, deception, and other similar sorts of symptoms.