Paul James

How do you explain after my prayer for my work supervisor who had been diagnosed with arthritis in her knee, that when she went back to the same doctor who originally xrayed her knee, and had another xray, the arthritis had totally disappeared? Also how would you explain that a lady with a chronic back problem and had constant pain for years, had prayer, resulting in all the pain disappearing and she had the best nights sleep in years? These were events I was personally involved in. Also, a friend who was profoundly deaf in both ears, went and had an operation on one ear, and on the way home, began hearing perfectly in the other ear as the result of his faith. Of course, James says that the person who doubts (or has unbelief) will receive nothing from the Lord. That is probably the reason why you and people you know have never observed or experienced divine healing. Paul got bitten by a poisonous snake and nothing happened to him, so it is quite possible. Also, concerning tongues. I was praying in tongues in a service and a New Zealand Maori lady told me that God spoke through me to her in the Maori language to encourage her in the faith. I had no knowledge of the Maori language at that time. Also a friend of mine was praying along with others in a prayer meeting, and when he prayed in tongues, a visitor from Ghana heard him praising God in the Ghana visitor's own village dialect. This was witnessed by at least 20 people in that prayer meeting. How do you explain that if you believe that tongues speaking today is false? Oh, by the way, these people, including me, live holy lives for Christ and are passionate about preserving the highest standard of piety possible. Maybe you are mixing with the wrong people and getting shonky information from them.

Just for information, the Scottish Covenanters of the 17th Century were Calvinist, and they were strong in the prophetic, and their prophecies came to pass, especially the one where John Fletcher prophesied that the plague would not come into a certain city. It came to pass that the effects of the plague were all around the city, but no one who lived in that city got the plague. So it means that Calvinists can be used in the gifts of the Spirit. I just thought that bit of information might tickle your fancy! :-)

It is the context of that section of 1 Corinthians 13. In verse 8 it may not be referring to the gift of tongues at all, and we know that prophecy involves preaching of the gospel, and knowledge is on the increase, and not vanishing away. So, it will be when Jesus comes again that we will no longer need world languages, preaching, or worldly knowledge. We won't need any of this in glory. Also, we can't say that the canon of Scripture is "the perfect" because we all know that there is a lot of criticism about the accuracy and reliability of most Bible translations. So if some think that the KJV is perfect, then many will refute it because there are errors in that version because of the difficulties of translation from the Latin. There is no such thing as a set of absolutely perfect Scriptures. We don't have the originals any longer, and so we have nothing to confirm the perfection of what we have in our different translations today. So, asserting that the "perfect" Scriptures have replaced the gifts of the Spirit is basing that assertion on a very unreliable foundation. And furthermore, basing a whole doctrine about the Holy Spirit on one phrase "when the perfect is come" is incompetent hermeneutics. Any expert in hermeneutics will tell you that. Also, the devil quoted bits of Scripture to Jesus in the wilderness and Jesus totally refuted his attempt at using the Scriptures to tempt Jesus; so the devil uses the misquote of "that which is perfect" to deceive people into thinking that the spiritual gifts are not for today's church. For those who believe his lie, the devil has won in their case and they remain powerless.

This Scripture obviously speaks of the second coming of Christ which ends the church age. To apply this as Scripture evidence that the gift of tongues along with the other gifts of the Spirit have ceased is engaging in false demonic doctrine inspired by the devil to deceive people into believing that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit cannot be manifested today. The other demonic deception is the widespread misuse of tongues, against the clear teaching of Paul, to bring the gift into disrepute and cause people to believe that the modern application of tongues is false. But genuine speakers of tongues will never be heard in public meetings unless those who are particularly gifted to speak out in tongues with the intention of having it interpreted; and there will be others in the church who will be gifted to give the interpretation. Because a large proportion of religious church-goers are not genuinely converted, but attend church for many reasons other than true commitment to Christ, then the corruption of demonic doctrines, especially denial of the power of the Holy Spirit through His gifts, is no surprise. As I said before, if one denies any part of God's Word, they effective deny all of it.

Agreed. The manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit is not denomination-based. It is Bible and therefore the Holy Spirit can distribute the gifts to any genuine believer in any denomination who desires the best gifts and makes their request to God for the best one for their particular situation. One interpretation of John saying that God will baptise with the Holy Spirit and with fire was that he was speaking to unconverted Jews and if they remain unconverted until the judgment, they will meet the Holy Spirit but instead of coming to them in love and gentleness like a dove, He will descend on them with judgmental fire. So it seems that those who apply the Scripture to the believers' baptism with the Spirit may be quoting the Scripture out of context. Some may say that the tongues as of fire that rested on the heads of the 120 on the day of Pentecost was that baptism with the Spirit and fire. But what was resting on the heads was not literal fire. It was something like fire. But it never happened like that for Cornelius' household, the Samaritans, or the Ephesian disciples of John. It appears that the Day of Pentecost arrival of the Holy Spirit was a one-time event to signal the birth of the Church. A little later when the group prayed because of persecution, the place was shaken and they were filled with the Spirit, but there was no rushing wind or anything like fire on their heads.

You either believe all of God's inspired Word or none of it. The devil in his opposition to the power of the Holy Spirit has deceived many into believing that the Spiritual gifts are no longer available for today's churches. Cessationism is a doctrine of the devil to make churches powerless.

The weather is light overcast warm but with a very cool wind. Seeing that the thread is about the Charismatic movement, and that John MacArthur equates the Charismatic movement as strange fire, I drew that conclusion. And so I showed that what Aaron's sons did had nothing to do with the Charismatic movement. Of course, the Charismatic movement has been seriously corrupted with false doctrine, kundalini manifestations, and New Age spirituality. I was introduced to the Pentecostal movement in 1966, and then it was quite different and gospel based, and over the years it has evolved into the corrupted movement that much of it is today. Modern Pentecostalism has either gone totally quiet with no manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit, depending on three hymns and a sermon, or it has gone right overboard with extreme kundalini, over the top prancing, dancing, shouting and yelling, falling over, shaking, and jerking, with fake glitter falling from the ventilation system purporting to be gold dust, along with false teaching involving automatic prosperity and healing, with those who are poor and sick as having no faith and therefore not pleasing God. Also we have the fringe groups that teach that one must speak in tongues in order to be saved, and other left field teaching that has nothing to do with the New Testament. But then we have the genuine Charismatic groups who we never see on Youtube, who get on with joyful fellowship, true manifestation of the Spiritual gifts, preaching of the gospel of Christ, winning souls for the Lord. They are the ones who don't need to advertise themselves on Facebook or Youtube because God is working with them and blessing them because He sees their genuine faith and love for the body of Christ. They don't bother arguing with Cessationists, because they know these pelicans are denying God's Word and not living as Christians should, and therefore they obey God's word by having no fellowship with them. They also keep themselves separate from the corrupted extreme groups to avoid being infected with the corruption that has separated those groups from the genuine ministry of the Holy spirit.

The fact remains that if believers refuse to obey the Word of God and accept the fact that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are the tools of the Holy Spirit for today's churches, then they will be chastised by the Lord in that they will lose the privilege of having the Holy Spirit work with them and support them in what they are wanting to do for the Lord. They will be like Sampson who disobeyed the Lord by getting his hair cut off and when Philistines came to apprehend him, he didn't realise that his supernatural strength was gone. He was chastised by the Lord by ending up as a prisoner of the Philistines, having his eyes put out and reduced to slavery and ridicule until his hair grew back. Most of our churches are like Sampson. They think they have the Holy Spirit working with them, but because they are denying God's Word concerning the Spiritual gifts their supernatural strength has gone and they don't realise it; and so they are at the mercy of every godless spirit that comes in and takes them prisoner to its will. Churches cannot do the will of God for them without the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit, but because they deny what Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, the power of the Holy Spirit is withdrawn from them. People cannot walk in the Spirit and deny important parts of God's Word at the same time.

True, but the Pharisees thought the same, and they missed knowing Jesus as their Messiah. The disciples of John the Baptist came from John who asked if Jesus was really the one he was introducing. Jesus told them, "Go and report to John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have the gospel preached to them. 23 Blessed is he who does not take offense at Me.” (Luke 7:22-23). So, we can ask the same question: "How do we know that Jesus is present in the person of the Holy Spirit in our church services?" Do the blind receive sight, the lame walk, diseased people are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the true gospel is preached. In other words, if we don't see the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit in our church services, then what evidence have we that the Holy Spirit is active? I say, absolutely none! Without the manifestation of the gifts, folk are just playing church with their three hymns and sermon. They go out and have tea and biscuits for morning tea and instead of going home full of the Spirit, they go home full of tea and biscuits! In Luke 4:18 Jesus said, "“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed." So, in churches where the gospel is not preached, blind people don't receive their sight, and folk are not set free from the oppression of the devil through sickness and demonic activity, then we can only conclude that there is no anointing of the Spirit present there. Acts 10:38 says, "how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him." What this means that a church that is genuinely representing Jesus, Who is our example for Christian ministry, will be healing all who are oppressed by the devil, and the example of Jesus healing the woman who was bent over almost double, when He said, "Why shouldn't I heal this woman who has been oppressed of the devil these last 18 years?" If a church is not healing those oppressed by the devil, then where is the evidence of Holy Spirit anointing? Certainly not in those churches! So, let's get real and be consistent with the Scriptures instead of making up nonsense and lies to justify lack of power through unbelief in what God has clearly shown us in His Word. If churches are making God out to be a liar, then it is no wonder all they have is man's programme of three hymns and a sermon and nothing more.

Get a pair of scissors and cut out the references to the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12, and the whole of 1 Corinthians 14, because you have decided that these parts of the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God don't apply to you. But don't be surprised if wherever you fellowship you don't see any evidence of the Holy Spirit's involvement in what happens there. All you might see is a service made up of three hymns and a sermon, all of man's programming, lasting an hour on Sunday morning, and the members leaving the building as if they had just been to the dentist.

What has your passage quote to do with the Charismatic movement? It reads to me that Aaron's sons, who were not appointed to the priesthood intruded into the tabernacle and conducted a burned offering and paid with their lives. To use this passage to describe the Charismatic movement is a gross misquote and misuse of God's Word. Looks to me a case of taking a passage out of its proper context and shoe horning it into a context it doesn't belong. In actual fact, Aaron's sons conducted the same burned offering as the priests, but the "strange fire" was because unordained and non-commissioned people offered it. It seems to me that the majority of those who use Scriptures like this to criticise the Charismatic movement hardly read their Bibles in its entirety let alone study it, but rather they just pick out verses that suit them and apply them according to their own warped theology.

Warning people about false teachers and counterfeit Charismatic movements is not smearing or backbiting. You want to read what Paul says about false believers, even actually naming them in some of his letters. The Bethel prophets predicted Trump will win the election, and one said it was going to be by a margin of 71% of the vote. None of those prophecies came to pass, and the Scripture clearly indicates that such prophecies are false and that God did not speak to or send them. The Scripture says that the person who is spiritual judges all things but is judged of no man. Paul clearly teaches that when people prophesy, others weigh the prophecies to see if they are true. The Scripture also says that in the mouths of two or three witnesses a thing is established. There are many more than three witnesses who can testify that the teachings of these false prophets and teachers are misleading, non-Biblical and deceptive. The evidence is plain - it was established by several witnesses that the "gold dust" that came down in a Redding Bethel service was glitter put into the ventilation system by people employed by the leadership to do it. Bill Johnson and Benny Hinn teach that we can be "gods". Kenneth Copeland prophesied that Covid-19 is been defeated and he banned it from the U.S., and just this week, the number of cases of infected people has reached a record high. If that is not a false prophecy, I don't know what is. All this is not smearing men of God, or backbiting them without substantive evidence. This is giving clear, evidence-based testimony of falsehood in prophecy and teaching to warn genuine believers not to be deceived, and to avoid these false "apostles" and "prophets" like the plague. The "touch not my anointed" does not apply in the case of these false deceivers, because they are not anointed of God and He has not spoken to them or sent them. A bottle of rat poison is clearly labelled as such, and so these toxic false teachers and prophets should be clearly labelled as poisonous to genuine believers.

You must be either a Bethel or Kenny Copeland disciple. Okay... I get it.

I understand that. Most of it is a fraud and a counterfeit of the real thing. The Scripture is quite clear that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are real, and the manifestation of these is to profit every believer. This means that the gifts can be evident regardless of the denominational badge. A person doesn't have to have the "charismatic" badge to experience the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit. But a person has to be holy, totally devoted to Christ, and be a person of the Word, and of prayer. He needs through close study of Scripture and private prayer (discussing things with God) to have real and genuine fellowship with Him. These are the characteristics of a believer genuinely filled with the Holy Spirit. The gifts are the Holy Spirit's tools of trade. He distributes the gifts around the body of Christ (not just in "charismatic" denominations) as He wills, and He doesn't do it just for anyone. He looks for genuine believers, who love Christ and their fellow believers, who are consistent in personal holiness, who love close study of the Scriptures, and who spend time fellowshiping with God in honest, open, heart-felt prayer, making their requests to Him, and enjoying discussing His Word with Him. He won't give any gifts to ones who want to play with them as toys, or use their to bolster their own religious reputations. He is no respecter of persons, and He can manifest a gift as much through a little old lady with bun and tennis shoes, as he can in the most important looking pastor in the place. Tongues is just one of the gifts, and even that gift is genuinely manifested in the person whose characteristics I have already described. If a person is not holy and neglects fellowship with God in the study of Scripture and prayer, there is no guarantee that the tongues he speaks is actually of the Spirit and not of the flesh, and a lot of the public babbling of "tongues" comes from prayerless people with little or no knowledge of Scripture.

Much of the modern Charismatic movement has departed from the true Pentecostalism of the pioneers of the first part of the 20th Century. In Bethel, Hillsong, and Kenny Copeland type services, it is all a pretense. All that is happening is just man trying to conjure up what he thinks are the gifts, when what is happening is just the flesh. What passes for the Charismatic is mostly nonsense and nothing like what happened in the Book of Acts, and in the early part of the 20th Century when the true manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit were evident. We can desire the manifestation of the gifts, but we can't make them happen. It is the Spirit who distributes the gifts according to His will. If the manifestation of the gifts is absent, then to say that the Holy Spirit is moving in a service is a lie. In actual fact most are hoping that He is moving, but hope doesn't make it happen. In most churches all that happens is three hymns and a sermon, and if the service is labelled Charismatic, there is a "worship" time consisting of fleshly kundalini jerking, shaking and falling over, which was never seen in the Book of Acts. Therefore I believe that most of what is called Charismatic these days is a fraud. John MacArthur and Justin Peters are correct in their estimation of it, because that is all they have seen. They have never been part of the true power of the Holy Spirit when the real thing has happened. John Piper, one of the prominent proponents of the Charismatic movement says that tongues "is a toy" for people to play with. All he is is just one of the watered-down versions of what Pentecostalism used to be. Modern Charismatic has lost its purity of holiness and true devotion to Christ. In most modern services, the gospel of Christ is never preached, and there is a definite lack of the conviction of sin that was present during the ministries of Jonathan Edwards and Charles Finney during the great awakenings of the 18th Century. Modern Charismatics present Jesus as a "friend" whom you can chose to accept, but most "converts" merely get religion and often are not genuinely born again of the Holy Spirit. This is why we get so many accounts of post-Charismatics who have walked away from the church after a short time because of "the hypocrites" in the movement, and that they have discovered that it was just all talk, and because they were never born again in the first place, they never knew Christ in reality. All they did was to walk away from a religion that had no substance for them. Most of the prophecies are false and never come to pass, and the promises of healing for so many are never fulfilled, making the talk "God will heal you" empty and false for so many sick and disabled folk who come to the services with hope in their hearts, but this hope is dashed when things don't happen, and they realised that they have been tricked into believing stuff that is not the real thing. I believe that the gifts of the Spirit are real, including true prophecy and healing, but these are connected with the gospel of Christ, that Jesus shed His blood on the cross for us, and holiness of life, being a person of prayer and of the Word is essential. The real manifestation of the Holy Spirit through His gifts has come through devotion to Christ (and not a big-name preacher), personal holiness, strict compliance with the Scriptures, passionate love for the lost and for other believers regardless of denominal badge, and persistent prayer and fellowship with God, getting to know Him through private prayer and study of the Scriptures. Without all these things, we will never see the true manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit, and the majority of modern Charismatics will just carry on with their pretense and self-deception.

The fact is that the Holy Spirit has inspired a whole chapter of the Bible to give sound teaching on what tongues is, its purpose and how it should be used in order to build up our holy faith in God. If you are denying that tongues is a genuine gift of the Holy Spirit for today, then you are denying God's Word. Also, the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are the way the Holy Spirit moves, and when they are absent, the Holy Spirit is also dormant. Those people who are saying the Holy Spirit is moving in their services, without the manifestation of the gifts, are just pretending and what is really going on is just man's doing and is of the flesh. And the Scripture says that they who are in the flesh cannot please God. The sad fact is that this speaks of most of our churches today where the true power of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Spirit is absent. We can desire the gifts, but we can't conjure them up through our own efforts. The Spirit distributes the gifts according to His will. But the question is, why is the Spirit not doing that in most of our churches? Answer: man wants to do things his way and not God's way. This is behind the nonsensical rubbish of Hillsong, Bethel, and Kenny Copeland. All these are pretending that the Holy Spirit is moving, but in reality it is just fleshly nonsense and a counterfeit of the real thing.

At the time Lester Sumrall gave the prophecy (could be earlier - back in the 1980s) we didn't have all this Bethel, Hillsong, Kenny Copeland rubbish with their doctrines of devils and Hindu Kundalini stuff. We didn't see TV soaps showing sex between males, and same sex marriage, nor were there the widespread legalised abortions. Sumrall was a genuine Pentecostal who believed that the gifts of the Spirit were the way that the Holy Spirit worked in the church -not like the pretence we see in many churches today where people are saying that the Spirit is moving in the services, but without the gifts everything is actually done in the flesh according to man's programme and not God's.

Fair enough.

It has been revealed that Mother Theresa was a fraud and many children were neglected and abused under her watch.

Them too.

There is an excellent book called, "Who Moved The Stone?" by Frank Morrison. Available on Amazon from $4.65 second hand. Mr Morrison was a skeptic who set out to prove that the resurrection didn't happen. Halfway through his research he discovered that there was overwhelming evidence that proved the resurrection, so he completed his research and wrote the book to show that the resurrection of Christ really did happen.

In the early 1990s the evangelist Lester Sumrall had a prophecy for America. He said that Americans will accept doctrines of devils and engage in occult worship. This prophecy has now been fulfilled by Hillsong, Bethel, Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, Paula White and Bill Johnson.

If you look below, you will see "drag files here to attach or choose files. That's how you include images. Save your image to your pictures folder and then choose it from there to include in your reply.

I concur with your first sentence. But, in view of your second sentence, are you saying that 1 Corinthians 14:2 is not true? Or maybe all you have seen is the Bethel, Hillsong, and Kenny Copeland version of speaking in tongues, which are utterances coming from heretic non-Christian cults disguised as "Charismatic". Where the gift of tongues is used in accordance with Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14, wholesale public speaking in tongues is non-existent, unless someone speaks several sentences in tongues and another person gives an interpretation of it. I agree that the out-of-control babbling in "tongues" (not the real gift) in conjunction with falling down, shaking, jerking and uncontrolled hollow laughter is either kundalini, occult, or from hypnotic suggestion. When genuine Charismatics pray in tongues, they know exactly what they are doing, who they are praying to, and why they are speaking in that way. And you never hear them, because they are praying in their secret prayer closets away from the public view of sticky beaking spectators.

What I suggest you do is to research the activities of Bethel and Hillsong, compare what they teach and do with the New Testament, and come to your own conclusions as to whether they are Biblical movements or not. There is a good Youtube video called "Draining the Charismatic Swamp" which I found very useful in showing what these movements are all about.