Paul James

I think you are starting to troll me now, without any substantive material to add to the discussion.

My link entitled "Women's Ministry in the Church" gives a good explanation of this passage of Scripture. It shows that Paul was giving his personal preference on how Timothy should deal with specific issues that were existent in the Ephesian church at the time. It appears that there were aggressive women in that church who were overruling the leadership. Reading between the lines, I think that Timothy wrote to Paul asking for advice (because Paul's letters were often replies to letters that he received, such as the letter from Chloe's household that caused him to reply with 1 Corinthians). It seemed that Timothy was coming under criticism because of his relatively young age for being a bishop and was undergoing some stress and discouragement. He would have written to Paul for advice, and 1 Timothy was Paul's answer to deal with the specific problems that Timothy was facing in the Ephesian church.

Of course you will. I am very fussy whose books I read and whose messages I view on Youtube. I have now put links to three separate dissertations, so we are not receiving and depending on the conclusions of just one source. The Scripture says, "In the multitude of counsellors there is safety". Although poor King Ahab had 400 prophets who gave him a bum steer concerning his upcoming battle the the Syrians. So the multitude of counsellors didn't do him much good! But then God deliberately allowed a lying spirit to be in the mouths of those prophets because He determined to end Ahab's life in that battle. But the authors of the dissertations I have provided would have had their work closely examined by the most qualified professors to ensure that their examinations, arguments, and conclusions were of the highest standards, especially for the M.A. theses. Part of the professionalism of the authors and their professors is that they are able to "de-objectivize" their theological bias in their evaluation and grading of the dissertations. I was very fortunate that I did my M.Div through an on-line Bible College which expressed no theological bias, and as a Pentecostal, noone put me down for that, and I was able to write my assignments and research papers as led by the Holy Spirit, and got high grades for them. I know that there are Bible colleges that have their theological bias, and would exert their influence on their students. In some ways, doing a degree majoring in theology might avoid bias pressure if it was done through a secular university - as long as the theology department is not riddled with liberals, as many are. In some ways having a totally non Christian supervisor for a post graduate degree thesis would be better because my work would be evaluated on its own merits rather than through the filter of someone with a theological bias.

Here is a link to another dissertation about women's ministry in the church: http://www.personal-communication.org.nz/Women_in_Church_Ministry_Addressing_the.pdf In this article, the author not only concurs with the other authors as to Paul's intent on writing 1 Corinthians 14:34-35, but effectively deals with the Timothy reference in view of the issues that were existing in the Ephesian church at the time. This dissertation is worth a read to get a better understanding of why Paul gave Timothy instructions about the role of women in the church.

Take the time to read the two theses, and then tell me what you think of them.

It would be helpful for you to say exactly you think it is a false dichotomy. If you read the M.A. theses I provided in the links, you will see that the authors present a reasonable doubt that 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is actually God's Word. Philip's thesis expresses more doubt than the second one. Aua accepts that the verses are authentic, but either misplaced, or interpreted wrongly to suggest that it is a blanket prohibition on women having verbal ministry in the church, and puts forward the proposition that the instruction is directed to specific married women in the Corinthian church who were disrupting the services by questioning and discussing prophecies while they are being said, in the same way that people questioning parts of a pastor's sermon while he is in the progress of preaching it. In other words, Paul is saying that if these women have questions and objections to the prophecies they should hold off until they get home and then ask their husbands.

Firstly, my point was that some churches are strict about complying with some parts of the New Testament, but don't with others. I see that as inconsistency. If people are going to say that they are basing their faith on God's Word, then they need to base it on the whole of God's Word, and not just cherry pick the bits that fit into their biased theology. I am not saying that your church is doing this, but there are churches that do. I think I have provided two excellently researched M.A. theses that examine the verses quite comprehensively and fairly. You may not agree with the conclusions at the end of these dissertations, but upon reading them you will see that the authors have treated the issue fairly and professionally, considering all the different areas of thought and belief about the verses.

Although I am pretty tolerant about changes of topic, I am strict about personal attacks and contentious posts and I will report them without hesitation.

Seeing that I am the OP of the thread, I can introduce thoughts that may not be strictly on topic. I know of churches that are very strict on women keeping silence in churches, and yet teach that those who hold to 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 being applicable to the modern church and practice prophecy and tongues, as being of the devil, and if anyone prophesied or spoke in tongues in their churches, they would be instantly escorted out of the church and thrown out on the road. Now, who do you think is doubting God's Word here? The person who has doubts about two verses of 1 Corinthians 14 that might have been inserted by a misogynist editor intending to guide the church into Roman social norms, or the person who teaches that those who exercise the spiritual gifts, according to 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, especially tongues, are of the devil?

Scholars who don't have any religious or theological bias are better at Bible criticism because they can be more objective and are able to give a criticism of the text that seeks to determine what the original might have been, rather than a critic who skews his criticism according to his theological bias. Man church histories concerning the early church have had the supernatural and miraculous filtered out by historians who didn't believe in the supernatural, and so the histories are skewed by their Cessationist notions. The most accurate account of the history was "Christianizing the Roman Empire" by Ramsey MacMullen, who is not a Christian and therefore included all the miraculous events, not being influenced by Cessationist attitudes. The only ones who don't like textual criticism are those wanting to preserve their sacred cow belief in the inerrancy of the KJV.

It's the first time I've heard of that. Given that Paul wrote the 1 Corinthians around 59AD, the Jewish believers in Jerusalem may not have had access to it in time to make copies to insert the verses from the Talmud, although I guess in the 11 years up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD, it might have been possible. If the verses, as supposed in some manuscripts, the verses were inserted after Paul's reading of the letter before publishing as a margin note, I doubt whether he would get it from the Talmud. Actually, the reference to "the law" is obscure, because there is no direct law to support the verses, and so it has been a matter of debate. It seems rather odd that Paul is commenting on tongues and prophecy, and then suddenly talks about women being silent in church, referring to "the law" that has nothing to do with tongues or prophecy - unless Paul is instructing for married women to hold their tongues when prophecies are given, and according to the law, be submissive to their husbands and hold any questions about the prophecies until they got home to ask their husbands.

This thesis gives an excellent analysis of the reference: http://www.personal-communication.org.nz/AUA_THESIS_PAPER.pdf

Did you catch up with the link to the M.A. thesis about order in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35? If not I can put it back in. It is about 160 pages so it is a good read and gives lots of food for thought. The author did remark about the Timothy reference but I forgot what he said. I think he implied that it was an insertion into the text of a later manuscript and may not have appeared in the original instructions that Paul gave Timothy. Of course, that can't be proved because we no longer have access to the originals for comparison. Maybe if the originals were preserved to this day, they may have been idolised as holy icons, something which the Lord would not have approved. Therefore it is my view that He allowed the originals to perish or be lost for that reason. Here is the link: http://www.personal-communication.org.nz/Bringing_Order_to_1_Cor_14_34_35 (1).pdf

I looked up the whole passage and I don't see that it was just him saying it and not God. But then, I don't think he knew that his instructions were going to be put on an equal basis to Old Testament Scripture. He was just giving his views to Timothy to encourage him to ensure that the churches under Timothy were being run decently and in order. It was decided later, probably in the second century that Paul's letters be elevated to Holy Scripture.

By the way, because I am the OP, I can change the topic. I'm actually enjoying the twists and turns of the different responses and I would encourage to keep it going. If something comes to mind that might seem off-topic, don't worry. Say it. You won't get any strife from me. Now, textual criticism. I believe that the only ones who are threatened by textual criticism are the ones who believe that the KJV is the breathed-on version and that every word in it is literally dictated by the Holy Spirit. When someone using textual criticism brings up that some verses were doctored at some time in the history of the church, as I said in my OP concerning women in the church, then some who have the faith in their beloved KJV feel that their faith is under attack. I think that this is because they are bound to the literature of the Bible instead of involving the anointing of the Holy Spirit to clarify some aspects of the Scripture to enable the reader to pick the meat from the bones. Bible Hub shows most English versions of the Bible and it is good to compare the wording among them to get a good appreciation of what the passage is actually saying. I have a friend who has a PhD in classical literature, and she is fluent in classical Greek and Latin, and I remember a Bible study in which she frustrated the minister conducting it because she regularly corrected him from her reading of the Greek text! It made a very amusing and memorable Bible study.

I read that John Lake became disillusioned with the doctors of his time after studying toward a medical degree. I think that disillusionment coloured his teaching about seeking medical assistance. Curry Blake, who has reactivated John Lake's Divine Healing Technician's Manual and has a CD and DVD teaching set on it, states that a sick person should seek medical help and the Lord's help at the same time. He says that seeking medical help is not a sign of a lack of faith, and the medication the person is taking will not hinder divine healing, and when the Lord heals the person, it will become obvious that the medication will be unnecessary and might cause further problems. Blake advises in these cases to go back to the doctor, get confirmation that the medical condition has been healed, and for the doctor to instruct the patient to cease taking the medication. Blake strictly advises that a person should not stop taking medication unless the person who prescribed it says so. I think that Curry Blake promotes Lake's principles in a much more practical way. I don't agree with the early Pentecostal anti-academic notion. Oral Roberts founded a university and many of the graduates have done great things for the Lord. It is not the principle of gaining an academic degree that is the issue, it is the type of teaching that is involved. I hold a M.Div, and it was a wonderful three year journey that deepened my knowledge and appreciation of Scripture and church history. The problem with the anti-academic attitude of some Pentecostals is exemplified in the invasion of the occult in many Pentecostal churches, plus false prosperity and guaranteed healing doctrines and kundalini manifestations that have nothing to do with New Testament worship. The whole reason why the early church decided to train clergy is to counter the rash of heresies that were invading the church during and after the First Century. One of the five fold ministries of the church is that of teacher. These are men and women called of God to teach sound doctrine to faithful believers who will in turn pass it on to others in order to ensure that their faith is soundly based on Christ. Where there is a lack of sound teaching and every believer is a law to themselves in terms of doctrine, we have false doctrines and divisions. The piece of paper in the frame on the wall does not make an effective ministry for Christ. But if it represents three or more years of solid learning in sound doctrine, then it sure is a help and may provide a shield against heresy. The "oneness" Pentecostal movement is a whole false movement that has come about because the founders of the movement lacked sound doctrine, decided that two plus two equals five, divided from the mainstream Pentecostal movement and went their own way.

i think the guiding principle is that most of the Old Testament is written for us rather than directly to us.

Done. I forgot about Alexandria as one of the regions. I might be wrong but I have an impression in my mind that the 4th Century manuscript was Alexandrian. You might be able to put me right there.

The problem with her as a church leader is not that she is a female, but because she is a lesbian. It doesn't prove that female ministry and leadership is non-Biblical, but a lesbian church leader is. If you are going to use the same argument, then you must use the example of a homosexual male bishop to state that male ministry should be outlawed in the churches. Also, there are many godly academics who are strong on textual criticism and theological scholarship, so those don't disqualify a female or male from being a leader in the church. Nice try but no cigar!

I could be wrong about that because I remember that Constantine set up his headquarters in Constantinople in the 4th Century and ruled the Eastern part of the church from there, while he appointed a caretaker leader to administer the Western Latin churches. However, my point was that blanket prohibition of female verbal ministry was not accepted by every church, until decreed by the Bishop of Rome when Rome took over the supreme authority in the church.

Textual criticism should be applied to the Bible because of the different revisions through the centuries, some good, some not so good. It is important that the most accurate text is determined, and textual criticism is used for that purpose. I think it is more important that textual criticism is used for the Bible over and above other books of antiquity, because the original texts were directly inspired by the Holy Spirit. But we don't have those originals any longer, and the earliest text dates back the 4th Century. Also we have to consult the writing of the earliest church fathers, because there are quotations of Scripture that they used that can be compared with the manuscripts. These early church fathers would have had access to earlier texts that are no longer available now. If an early church father quotes a certain passage that is different from the 4th Century manuscript, we can assume that the early church father's quote may be the accurate one and that an editorial change has been made from the earlier text to the 4th Century one. Also, we can make a pretty accurate assumption from the teaching of the early church fathers previous to Tertullian concerning women speaking and prophesying in church and if they accept that women do have a verbal role in the churches, then we can assume that there has been some subtle changes in the manuscript to make it appear that Tertullian's teaching is the accurate version. So, to be able to use textual criticism in an expert manner, the scholar must be familiar with all the existing texts, early church history, and the written works of the early church fathers right back to the earliest.' One further point: I have never tried to memorise Scripture, but ever since April 1969, when the Holy Spirit revealed the reality of Jesus to me and brought me into close fellowship with Him, His guidance has been mainly through bringing Scriptures to mind. Therefore I have the attitude that when the Holy Spirit quotes Scripture to my mind (from the KJV, by the way, because for the first 12 years of my Christian life that was the version I used), it has to be accurate. Also, when studying a passage of Scripture, and the Holy Spirit gives me fresh insight into it, that has to be accurate as well. it is interesting that in answer to my concerns about the female ministry in my Union church, the Holy Spirit led me to the M.A. thesis which gave me valuable insight into why 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is certainly not a blanket prohibition on female ministry in the churches.

In the early church, there were several regions - Jerusalem up to AD70, Antioch, Carthage, Rome, and Byzantium. This was before the Great Schism of 1054 where the Bishop of Rome and the Bishop of Constantinople excommunicated each other. Each had their own copies of the Greek manuscripts. It was the manuscripts used by the Latin churches that were edited, and the first church father that taught the silence of women in churches was Tertullian in the late Second Century. No other Apostolic or church father previous to him taught it at all. The Eastern churches used manuscripts that were not edited but basically kept to the original. This is why some of the manuscripts are worded slightly different to others. It is significant that it is the manuscripts used by the Latin churches that became the foundation for Jerome's Latin Vulgate, which formed the basis of RCC theology, and was influential in the formation of the KJV.

Aimee Semple MacPherson was a very well-known preacher of the gospel in the first half of the 20th Century in the United States. Thousands of souls were saved through her ministry. The Four Square Pentecostal church was founded by her. Kathryn Khulman was another gospel preacher whose ministry was in the middle of the 20th Century. She was a gospel preacher, but as well as thousands being saved, multitudes were healed during her services while sitting in their seats. She never had a healing line. She learned of the healings when people came up and testified. Every disease and disability you can think of were healed. People were even healed while on their way to the services. She wrote a number of books describing her ministry. In most cases, these healings were documented and verified by medical authorities as being totally genuine. Often the people healed were those with chronic or terminal conditions where they were given up by their doctors and sent home to die. You can go to Youtube and view the "God's Generals" series by Roberts Liardon. He gives a good account of these women ministries. My view of how the Holy Spirit has supported and worked with these ministries shows me that the apparent prohibition of women speaking in church is to what it appears to be where the verses are put as 34 and 35. But if these verses were originally set after verse 40, then they would make better sense and the supernatural Holy Spirit involvement in these female ministries would not be seen to contradict Scripture.

In the light of these Scriptural references you have quoted, would you consider Aimee Semple MacPherson and Kathryn Khulman false preachers, even though thousands were saved and healed through their ministries?

My wife won't drive our car on the urban motorway. She says that she prefers that I drive. Her reason is, "Why bark if I have a dog to bark for me?" In this context, as far as scholarly work in theology and divinity is concerned, I don't have to re-invent the wheel by doing my own scholarly thesis when other very capable scholars have written excellent Mastorate and Doctoral theses on the same topics. They are the ones who have done the years of research which has been approved by their professors, who mainly are the foremost authorities, otherwise these professors wouldn't be employed to evaluate the work of those they supervise. It would be like wanting to learn to fly a Boeing 737 and going to the trouble of writing my own 1000 page instruction manual, when comprehensive manuals have already been written. In the same way, we have people ignoring the excellent work of godly scholars and authors, and wasting their time going over the same ground as these authors, albeit not as disciplined or accurate as those who have done the required research. To complete a doctorate thesis on a theological topic, the author has had to have studied very single book and article on the topic without exception, so gaining a total understanding of what he is to write about. And, he has to choose a premise that has not been approached by any other author. If he repeats what has already been researched and written, then his thesis is downgraded to a Mastorate thesis, because the topic has already been submitted in thesis or book form by someone else. I have said all this to give an understanding of what it takes to write a theological thesis - that it is not something scribbled off in a weekend. My M.A. English Literature thesis took 15 months to complete and nearly killed me, and then I got just a B+ so it wasn't as perfect as it should have been. For my M.Div I did a 50 page research paper on the Scriptural and historical background, and current practice, with a survey of selected literature in the divine healing ministry. I got a much getter grade for that one because I made sure that it was well-researched. So, if someone wanted to know more about the Scriptural, historical and practice in the healing ministry, all they need to do is to read my research paper, and not have to do their own research and write a paper themselves. It's like when I needed a pile of trash removed from my driveway. I could have spent money on hiring a trailer, getting someone with a towbar on their car, loaded the trailer myself, driven to the dump, paid the dump fee, and disposed of it. Instead, I telephoned "The Junk Man" and two guys turned up with a large truck and had the trash removed within 5 minutes, and the cost was less than what I would have spent on doing it myself. At my age (73) there are many things, like putting a new sheet on iron on my garage roof to replace the one with holes in it, which I could have done myself 20 years ago, but cannot do now, so I got a "roofer" to do it at the cost of $200! So, instead of having to "bark" myself, I can get a dog to bark for me, in the form of a well-researched thesis or book on the theological topic I need to acquaint myself with, along with all the Scripture references that support it.