Rukkus

Not all disease can be healed...however certain things can. If God wants us to be healed then we shoudl rely on the doctors He has given us in order to be healed. Such as, someone suffering from cancer can rely on the technology available to fight cancer and if they are healed, wonderful. If not, then they simply are not. There is a line from a Brave Saint Saturn song that sums it up: He fought to stay, but always dreamed he could leave this place Basically, we want to stay on this earth and will fight to stay (in order to help those who need help), but at the same time, if we don't, then we are healed. Either way, whether we are healed through medicine, no medicine, or death, God's Will has been done. So the reasoning you use here is that whatever happens, whether healing, or death, God's Will has been done . . . The only problem with this reasoning is it assumes that whatever happens is God's Will. And when you try to apply that to other areas of Christian living . . . . Say sin for instance, then you assume that because a CHristian sins, that it was God's Will? Where is the line drawn? Is everything that happens God's Will?

I've seen that the majority of Christians do not believe that it is God's Will for everyone to be healed. Yet these same Christians will take medicine and go to the doctor when they get sick in order to get well. Why are they trying to obtain something that may not be God's Will for them? Why are they fighting God's Will?

I got it . . . I'll pm you

Drive by posting I guess . . . Too bad, cause it really seemed like you had some good input on the subject

Brandli, were you going to reply to my post?

Brandli, thanks for giving such an in depth response. There were a few issues I was wondering about though . . . Brandli: Sheol / Hades is a realm with two divisions (Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27-31), RA: This is where I start to have a hard time following you. I read all the scriptures you gave. Where in any of them does it say that Hades is in two divisions? Like, could you quote the verse and then say specifically where it you're referring to? Brandli: the abodes of the saved and the lost. The abode of the saved was called

Isaiah . . . Well if you define spiritual death as being seperated from God, then Jesus died spiritually, according to that definition because the BIble says in Matt 27:46 that God forsook Jesus.

Acta 2:31 doesn't say anything about Jesus going to hell? Hmmm . . . We must be reading different Bibles. Thanks for the comments, anyway

Well, I think we get into trouble when we start looking at biblical subjects from the point of view of someone's "doctrine" because we begin associating it with a person or movement, rather than just looking to see if it's in the Bible or not. I'm not interested in Copeland's or Hagin's doctrines. I'm interested in whether I can read it for myself in my own Bible. As far as Jesus dying spiritually . . . Since this phrase "spiritually dead" does not occur in the Bible, you would have to first define it before I could answer.

Dakota . . . I think it's defenitely an interesting study as to what Josephus said about hell or hades. But I don't believe it compares to what Jesus said about it. That's why I'm interested only in what the Bible teaches us concerning it. I'm not trying to be mean or rude, but you won't find what Josephus wrote about hell and Abrham's bosom eternally established in the heavens, like you will Jesus' words (Ps 119) 23: And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24: And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Luke 16) Verse 23 says the rich man was in hell. Then Jesus goes on and uses two words to describe hell (hades) torments and flame. This same Greek word for "hell" can be found in Acts 2:31 in reference to where Jesus' Soul went.

Well . . . Like I pointed out in the article . . . Jesus described in Luke 16, the place that He went. A place of torment and flames. And I have heard plenty of people say that there is a paradise side to Hades . . . But Luke 16 does not say this. Luke 16 says the rich man went to hell (hades) and Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom. Just because they could see eachother from where they were does not mean they were in the same place.

Hey Guys, what do you think of this article? I wanted to get a good discussion going . . . _______________________________ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (Isa 53:10) Notice the part that says God would make the Soul of Jesus an offering for sin. So we see what God did with the Soul of Jesus. He made it an offering for sin. This shows us that it wasn

SuperJew said . . . This is why i don't like Strong's. First off, "I am" is not a word in Greek, it is two words (like in English) of ego eimi. If Paul wanted to say, "I was" then it would have been written ego emen (the imperfect indicative form), however that is certainly not the case. He clearly uses the present, meaning that it is taking place in the present world. Well, as I said, that same word is used in the NT but translated past tense . . . But I'm going to look more into this. As for you attempting to pull context, doesn't work. This is where I got the past, present, future idea. Who Christ came to save. The word "save" here is sozo, however when placed inside the sentence and given the context it is spelled sosai. This indicates that Paul meant it to be understood in the Aorist tense. While most translations have the Aorist as a past tense, this is inaccurate. For one, it's impossible to translate it into English, the idea simply doesn't correlate into our language and there is no perfect way to translate it. In essence, Paul is saying it was a work that was started (where we get our past tense) but does not indicate an ending for it (which can mean it is ongoing). Well, I'm going by what can actually be read in the Bible. When you reference the Greek, you're getting off into something that you need to verify with sources, because I'm not going to take your word for it. In essence, the context screams that Paul was the worst of sinners and still is the worst of sinners (at least in his mind, it doesn't make it true, simply that Paul was using hyperbole to prove a point). Well, people read different things into the context, I'm just referring to the text itself. This corresponds with various verses talking about the frailties that Paul had, specifically the giving into things that he did not want to do. Well, I don't know about it corresponding with various verses concerning Paul's infirmities. I would say it doesn't. Like 1Cor 4:4. And in another place he says he has wronged no man. As far as giving into things he didn't want to do . . . That's Romans 7, in which is described a man who is carnal, sold under sin, and without the Holy Spirit dwelling in his flesh (read verses 14, and 18). But then one chapter later clearly shows that he has been set free from that law of sin and death (Romans 8:2), by the power of the law of the Spirit of Life. And that there is a way by which you can destroy the works of the flesh, through the Spirit (verse 13). People quote Romans 7 like Paul spent his whole life there. But all you gotta do is read one more chapter, and you see the outcome isn't bondage to sin, but freedom from that law of sin and death.

SuperJaw . . . Are you going to respond? Or was this a hit and run?

Mark said . . . Just because Paul was saved/Justified, he never ever gave the impression sin was not possible. thats pretty silly to think that. Right, I didn't say Paul ever did give that impression. Just pointed out that people who think Paul was calling himself just chief of sinners, need to read which sinners he refers to in 1Tim 1:15. Not sinners who remained in their sin, but sinners who were saved from their sin (Matt 1:21).