Christian Believer

Hello again Willa, And just to be clear on things, here's a summary of how we stand: Declaring belief in Jesus is the beginning of a journey of getting to know Him. It goes in this order: 1. Birth of the flesh, physical birth. 2. Spiritual birth (born again) 3. Spiritual maturity. It is the 3rd item that most churches and people ignore. And it is the 3rd item I'm pointing to. The Lord's Prayer is only one of the things we can do to fulfil the 3rd item. Why is it that telling someone to say the Lord's Prayer daily as Jesus instructed, is so offending? It is not "works". It is obedience. And it contributes to #3. The other contributing action to #3 is seeking God, through reading the scriptures, as Jesus instructed in the Sermon on the Mount. Again here Jesus said it. But if I task someone to do it, they're angry at me. "What do you mean? I'm "born again" I don't need to do anything..." Well Jesus had something to say to those with that attitude. Matthew 3:9: Jesus said: "And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham."

Hello appy, Catching up on replies. Okay, is this a trick question? Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ, the Son of God. He died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. He spoke in the Bible that we all have access to today. And He said many things in the Bible; many parables and teachings. If we claim we believe, then to be true with our claim we have to first look at all the things he said. Belief also means respect, so I take into consideration the things he taught us, like the Lord's prayer. Why do people complain when you say you need to have the right attitude and learn more about the person you believe in? Ok your turn. Who is Jesus to you?

Hello Willa, Sorry I'm now catching up on replies. So yes, you have good verses there. But remember, there is a whole Bible with thousands of other verses, not contradicting, but complementing and elaborating. It is certainly not a good attitude towards God to say I'm not sinning. Rather than nit-pick if my certain behavior is a sin or not, I always turn to Him for forgiveness, through the Lord's Prayer, which fulfills many of these verses. God loves to hear from us everyday, which why He designed this prayer to be recited daily. Here are some supporting verses to what I'm saying: 1 Corinthians‬ ‭10:16-17 Paul said: …there is one loaf… we all share the one loaf. 2 Corinthians 4:16: Paul said: …Even though our outer person is being destroyed, our inner person is being renewed day by day. John 6:32-33 and 6:51 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you Moses didn’t give you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.” “For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” “I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever. The bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” John 6:57 …the one who “feeds” on me… Using the term “feeds” implying continual. [… give us this day our daily Bread…] John 6:58 Contains a very clear explanation showing a parallel between the Bread (His body) and the manna in the desert, which couldn’t be hoarded more than one day (Exodus 16:4). Thus, God’s desire for our daily dependence on Him. John 15:5 The branch is continually nourished by the Vine. Jesus is the vine, and we are the branches. Without the Lord’s Prayer daily, a branch will wither and die. Luke 11:13 Jesus said this right after he taught them His prayer. God is giving the Holy Spirit, “to those who ask Him”. It doesn’t get much clearer than this. Obviously, God will not give you the Holy Spirit unless you ask. But Jesus is clarifying here that by renewing yourself (daily through His prayer), you’ll cleansed and make-way to receive the Holy Spirit. John 6:26-27 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.” Jesus said this after they had been looking for Him all day, then found Him. Another big evidence that the "earthly bread", is not it in the Lord's prayer. John 6 The entire Chapter 6 from John is all about this. The Pharisees did not get it then; Jesus knowing they did not get it, kept drilling it in with more of actual eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood throughout the chapter. And today you'd think we got it! But most churches and people still don't understand it. At best churches just call it: "basically He died for our sins..." or some other blanket statement like that. But no one knew to link it to the "daily Bread" in the Lord's prayer! Which provides our continuous feeding on Him. And keeping Him in us, and us in Him (John 15:4). This is so big, not to be taken lightly. God Bless! And have a good evening

Michael37, I'm just now catching up on these replies. Yes I agree, but I see that as God's concern, not mine. All I can do is point things out when they're missed. We are instructed not to argue or try hard to drill it in. Jesus instructed His disciples to shake the dust of their sandals and move on to the next town.

Hello TheBlade, There are several verses in the Bible making similar high-level statements about being saved once believe in Jesus. But they are to be taken as this, high-level statements. There are thousands of other statements in the Bible that elaborate on the how-to. Jesus clearly gave instructions to say this prayer daily, Matthew 6:9-13 and Luke11:2-4, and ask for His body as the Bread for the forgiveness of sins. It is not me saying. Jesus instructed this prayer. Now which of your verses obsoletes the Jesus prayer? Here are some Biblical references supporting the Lord's Prayer is to be said daily, and the daily bread is the body of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins (you won't hear about these from your church): 1 Corinthians‬ ‭10:16-17 Paul said: …there is one loaf… we all share the one loaf. 2 Corinthians 4:16: Paul said: …Even though our outer person is being destroyed, our inner person is being renewed day by day. John 6:32-33 and 6:51 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you Moses didn’t give you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.” “For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” “I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever. The bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” John 6:57 …the one who “feeds” on me… Using the term “feeds” implying continual. [… give us this day our daily Bread…] John 6:58 Contains a very clear explanation showing a parallel between the Bread (His body) and the manna in the desert, which couldn’t be hoarded more than one day (Exodus 16:4). Thus, God’s desire for our daily dependence on Him. John 15:5 The branch is continually nourished by the Vine. Jesus is the vine, and we are the branches. Without the Lord’s Prayer daily, a branch will wither and die. Luke 11:13 Jesus said this right after he taught them His prayer. God is giving the Holy Spirit, “to those who ask Him”. It doesn’t get much clearer than this. Obviously, God will not give you the Holy Spirit unless you ask. But Jesus is clarifying here that by renewing yourself (daily through His prayer), you’ll cleansed and make-way to receive the Holy Spirit. John 6:26-27 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.” Jesus said this after they had been looking for Him all day, then found Him. Another big evidence that the "earthly bread", is not it in the Lord's prayer. John 6 The entire Chapter 6 from John is all about this. The Pharisees did not get it then; Jesus knowing they did not get it, kept drilling it in with more of actual eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood throughout the chapter. And today you'd think we got it! But most churches and people still don't understand it. At best churches just call it: "basically He died for our sins..." or some other blanket statement like that. But no one knew to link it to the "daily Bread" in the Lord's prayer! Which provides our continuous feeding on Him. And keeping Him in us, and us in Him (John 15:4). This is so big, not to be taken lightly.

Yes! We are in full agreement now! I'm so glad to hear there are churches out there doing the right thing with the Lord's Prayer!

Hello Appy, Although I'm a new member here, I'm a long-time Christian with over 30 years of diligent Bible study. But I'll be happy to answer you. Born again is to become born of the Spirit, as compared to the previous physical birth. Yes we all need to do this as a first step in our declaration of belief in Jesus. Also note, Jesus was the first to use this term, and He used it with Nicodemus a Jewish Pharisee who was entrenched in His old-covenant Mosaic law and was unable to get out of it, and see clearly that the Messiah is here; as the Mosaic law was taught to them for thousands of years. Jesus in an effort to summarize what Nicodemus had to do to let go of the old covenant and get into the new, He used this term "born again".

It is this: 1. The proper daily fellowship with God has been taught to us by Jesus in His prayer (Matthew 6:9-13 and Luke11:2-4). Jesus said: "This, then, is how you should pray: ‘Our Father who are in heaven, hallowed be your name, [10]your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. [11]Give us this day our daily bread [12]and forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who trespass against us. [13]Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’" This is the proper prayer taught to us by God Himself. And it is to be prayed "daily" as Jesus implied. 100% of the fellow Christians I asked, from all denominations, have answered they don't pray it, at all. They said they only hear it at the beginning of sports games sometimes. Churches don't teach this! No church sermon I went to ever said it. When it should be prayed at the beginning of each sermon. Jesus is God who demands respect! And we are basically ignoring His teaching. And we claim we are "saved", "born again", etc.. Are we? 2. The second big error is in the interpretation of the word "bread". "Daily bread" is not our earthly needs. It's the body of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins.

Hello Michael37, The ceremonial law of Moses in the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy. That was the law of animal and other sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins. It was given by God (in the burning bush) to Moses as the old covenant redemption plan for the Jewish people. It was a proxy provision preceding the coming of the Messiah, Jesus Christ. After Jesus death on the cross, the curtain of the inner chamber in the Jewish temple was split in two. Indicating the end of the old covenant with God. Since that moment the Christian church started, by adopting Jesus' death on the cross as the new covenant for the forgiveness of sins, and "abolishing the old covenant of animal sacrifices" With love from a fellow believer, have a blessed evening.

Please consider this. Is there somewhere in the Bible that obsoletes the Lord's Prayer? Has the so called "blood covering" done away with the need to say the Lord's Prayer daily as He instructed. I think the Lord's Prayer is the fulfillment of the born again and blood-covering status.

Yes a church teaching says that. But which Bible verse says it? I have provided many Bible references supporting my points. Although the credit goes to God; He revealed them to me. Please forgive me for saying, maybe one needs to be born again from whatever he's in, in order to see clearly. Using the term "Born again" even though for hundreds of years has been associated with theology from our ancestors, are we not supposed to question it? Jesus instructs us to seek God in the Sermon on the Mount. Because God is not simple to be figured-out and stop learning about Him. I'm bringing new views from the Bible. I think are worth examining.

Hello again Sower, Yes I agree, it's me again with my alternative views. I am pointing out a connection between the two parts of the Bible. Seeing how Jesus always spoke in parables, it would be consistent with His personality in this case to give us the truth in two different parts of the Bible. One part talks about Jesus being the Vine and us the branches. And another part, His prayer, which clearly instructs us to keep asking for the nourishing Bread of life every day. To see what I see, one must first agree with the Biblical interpretation that the "daily Bread" in the Lord's Prayer is not our earthly needs, it is the body of Jesus, the Bread of life that God gives. Then you can see my other point clearly; connecting it to the Vine and branches. Please take a closer look at my other post again titled "Lord's Prayer Misunderstood" I remain humbled. And everything I say is in loving God and fellow believers. I mean no disrespect or confrontation. God Bless!

Hello Sower, Thank you sir. Yes I know many churches teach this. But after years of studying the Bible, God has revealed to me much that I've become rebellious to some church teachings. Churches have a tendency to settle in their ways, based on previous generations interpretations. No one ever questions anything. Yes there are verses that support what you said. But there are thousands of other verses that elaborate on them and provide more clues. Here is my alternative view. I humbly do agree with some of what you said, but have a problem with this part: God will stay in us during our sin. God even separated from His own Son Jesus when He poured the world's sin on Him on the cross (Mark 15:34: Jesus’ cry, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”). And that was not a one-time exception in the case of Jesus because it was a lot of sin poured out on Him. Whether a lot of sin or little, God and the devil cannot be together. The Holy Spirit and sin cannot be together. The Holy Spirit re-enters when we say the Lord's Prayer. Consider Luke 11:13, for example: Luke 11:13 Jesus said this right after he taught them His prayer. God is giving the Holy Spirit, “to those who ask Him”. This means, God will not give you the Holy Spirit unless you ask. But Jesus is clarifying here that by renewing yourself (daily through His prayer), you’ll be cleansed and make-way to receive the Holy Spirit. I know I'm bringing different views here. But it is all based on biblical references, not just me saying. Lovingly, Christian Believer

It is all about the forgiveness of sins. The forgiveness of sins is the main pillar of our Christian faith. Without it there is no relationship with God. The moment of the day we are renewed through the Lord's Prayer, God pours out His blessings! It is very clear throughout the scripture that God’s main focus was always about providing a redemption plan for sins. He knew this since before creation and executed it perfectly throughout history. What was the whole purpose of the Jewish religion and the Moses law etc.? Redemption (old covenant). What was the main purpose of the coming of Jesus? Redemption (new covenant). Many Christians today are thinking, we’re good people, never hurt anyone, keeping to ourselves… what sins do we need forgiven? But the reality is, we all start sinning the moment we wake up in the morning. The brain takes us in all kinds of directions (Matthew 5:28, Mark 7:21-23). Some sins can be against God, not necessarily hurting anyone. When we sin, God separates Himself from us. At that moment we are “wicked” in His sight. Yes, He’ll forgive us later, but after we ask Him to. When we’re done sinning, He’s not going to assume we want Him back. So, Jesus gave us the Lord’s Prayer as the proper way to reconcile with God. Saying that the Lord’s Prayer is to be recited daily for the forgiveness of sins, is consistent with other teachings from Jesus. Matthew 18:21-22, Jesus said “… forgive him seventy times seven…”, which is the same as saying just keep on forgiving him; stop counting – every time he comes back to you and asks for forgiveness, forgive him. Then He gave a parable about this likening it to the Kingdom of God. So, we too should keep asking God for forgiveness – daily. This reality may seem strange to you at first. This is because churches have brainwashed us into thinking differently for years. But keep looking at it and studying the Bible references. You'll see it clearly. And remember, praying the Lord's Prayer daily is not "works". It is obedience. How did it all get started? Adam and Eve sinned - the fall. God made clothes for them out of animal skins, Gen 3:21. Implying that animals had to be killed, as sacrifices for the forgiveness of their sins. Which also meant He gave them specific instructions on how to present sacrifices to Him when they sin. God gave the specific instructions then, and God gave us the specific instructions now, the Lord's Prayer. God’s instructions to Moses in the Books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, hundreds of commandments, were given to the Jews in the desert. In those early days when the Jews learned the law from Moses, these commandments were precisely and perfectly performed daily by the Levites, designated by God to be the priestly tribe for executing the ceremonial law on behalf of the Jewish people. With the ceremonial law met, their sins were forgiven. As a result, God lived among them, in the form of a smoke pillar by day, and a fire pillar by night (Exo 13:21). God was only able to do this after their sins were forgiven. He would not have been able to otherwise. During that time, God’s blessings poured on them. Protected them from the Egyptians, daily food provided in the desert, etc. Today, we know that that was God’s preparatory provision until the coming of the Messiah, Jesus Christ. The main point here is, that the Jews actually carried-out all these difficult precise requirements and repeated them daily (example in Num 28:3-8), for the forgiveness of sins. But today, if you tell someone you have to recite the Lord’s Prayer daily for the daily renewal and forgiveness of sins, they complain. “Do I have to say it daily?…” Churches today went too far with interpreting the new covenant. Yes, Jesus fulfilled the Leviticus law, and there’s no more need for ceremonial sacrifices. In abolishing the ceremonial law, churches mistakenly also abolished the daily fellowship with God. Saying the Lord’s Prayer daily is not ceremonial law. His sacrifice on the cross morphed us from the daily repeating hundreds of difficult animal and other sacrificial Leviticus requirements, to simply become the daily recital of the Lord’s Prayer to receive the Bread of life from God, and then the Holy Spirit can dwell within us, Luke 11:13. The daily reciting of the Lord’s Prayer is also our daily fellowship with God, as He always desired. God is the same always. He has the same unchanging Personality. He always wanted daily fellowship with us. From the days of Adam (Gen 3:8), to the daily manna that couldn’t be hoarded more than one day (Exo 16:4), to the ceremonial law of daily sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins (Leviticus and Numbers), to the Lord’s Prayer today (Matthew 6:9-13 and Luke11:2-4). If you insist on following the teaching of the churches today: “all you have to do is declare belief one time and you’re done”, then God will definitely say He never knew you on judgement day (Matthew 7:23: "Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"). Note that in the Bible it is made clear that in God's sight anyone who's sins are not forgiven, is an "evildoer". Yes, even the nicest person on earth, can be an evildoer if their sins are not forgiven.

Matthew 6:9-13 and Luke11:2-4 Our Father who are in heaven, hallowed be your name, [10]your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. [11]Give us this day our daily bread [12]and forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who trespass against us. [13]Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. Two main problems with Christians and churches today: The "daily bread" is not our earthly needs. It's the body of Jesus. People are not praying this prayer "daily" as Jesus instructed. The “daily bread” is not our earthly necessities. The “Daily Bread” is the Body of Jesus. The forgiveness of sins is the result of receiving the daily Bread, which is the Bread of life that God gives (John 6:32-33). Jesus would never instruct us to pray for earthy necessities, as clear from His teachings throughout the bible. Example, sermon on the mount: “don’t worry about earthly needs, but seek God first…” (Matthew 6:31-33) It is obviously implied to say the Lord’s Prayer “daily”. It would be disrespectful of us not to say it daily. Do you truly believe in Him when you’re not saying this prayer daily as He instructed? You don’t have to chew on actual bread like some churches advise. You can receive God’s bread of life spiritually, by genuinely saying the Lord’s Prayer acknowledging the meaning of every word in it. You might say, "what's the difference? as long as we pray the prayer." Oh there is a huge difference. Our spiritual communication with God is about what we mean. The words are meaningless unless we mean what they are in our hearts. If you examine the original Aramaic version of this prayer, you’ll find two important facts: 1. No punctuation. Punctuation was added later in the translation. And in the case of this prayer, the translators made an error by adding a period between “…daily Bread” and “and forgive us…” There should be no punctuation there. Not because I said so, but because of all the Bible references (provided here below) that are consistent with that. 2. There were two words: “sins” and “trespasses”. “Sins” was used in reference to God. We trespass against humans, but we “sin” against God! Trespass is a soft word that lessens the significance of the offense, but when it comes to God, it is a deadly offense; proper word for it is “sins”. Jesus used the word “sins” throughout the scripture, not “trespasses”(example in John 9:41). So it’s not “… forgive us our trespasses…” It is “… forgive us our sins…” Bible references supporting this: “daily Bread” = Body of Jesus, not earthly necessities 1 Corinthians‬ ‭10:16-17 Paul said: …there is one loaf… we all share the one loaf. 2 Corinthians 4:16: Paul said: …Even though our outer person is being destroyed, our inner person is being renewed day by day. John 6:32-33 and 6:51 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you Moses didn’t give you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.” “For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” “I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread he will live forever. The bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” John 6:57 …the one who “feeds” on me… Using the term “feeds” implying continual. [… give us this day our daily Bread…] John 6:58 Contains a very clear explanation showing a parallel between the Bread (His body) and the manna in the desert, which couldn’t be hoarded more than one day (Exodus 16:4). Thus, God’s desire for our daily dependence on Him. John 15:5 The branch is continually nourished by the Vine. Jesus is the vine, and we are the branches. Without the Lord’s Prayer daily, a branch will wither and die. Luke 11:13 Jesus said this right after he taught them His prayer. God is giving the Holy Spirit, “to those who ask Him”. It doesn’t get much clearer than this. Obviously, God will not give you the Holy Spirit unless you ask. But Jesus is clarifying here that by renewing yourself (daily through His prayer), you’ll cleansed and make-way to receive the Holy Spirit. John 6:26-27 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.” Jesus said this after they had been looking for Him all day, then found Him. Another big evidence that the "earthly bread", is not it in the Lord's prayer. John 6 The entire Chapter 6 from John is all about this. The Pharisees did not get it then; Jesus knowing they did not get it, kept drilling it in with more of actual eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood throughout the chapter. And today you'd think we got it! But most churches and people still don't understand it. At best churches just call it: "basically He died for our sins..." or some other blanket statement like that. But no one knew to link it to the "daily Bread" in the Lord's prayer! Which provides our continuous feeding on Him. And keeping Him in us, and us in Him (John 15:4). This is so big, not to be taken lightly. Wording crafted by God Himself Many Christians think, “surely Jesus gave us this prayer as an example. That He didn’t mean for us to repeat it daily!” He did!!; He [God] Personally word-smithed the words perfectly. Exactly as He did throughout history. After the fall He taught Adam and Eve how to present a sacrifice fitting to Him, He crafted the Leviticus law to Moses that had to be followed precisely, and finally the Lord’s Prayer, which is the optimum method compared to previous covenants. It's a prayer that we say in our hearts once a day. It keeps us close to God, and fulfills John 5:24: "Truly I tell you, anyone who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life." After saying the Lord’s Prayer, the communication channels with God become wide open (through the Holy Spirit within us of course). Afterwards we can say our own prayers using our words, making our request known to God… And He will answer. I can guess why this prayer is no longer recited daily (except occasionally at some sports games, as a tradition). It is because people are well provided for these days. And therefore, feel they don’t need to bother God by asking for the daily bread anymore (implying earthly necessities), as they have plenty of them now. And that is a sad fact of today’s people. The other sad fact is, many people today equate earthly blessings to spiritual blessings - they drive up in their latest model SUVs to the biggest church in town… When it is the exact opposite. Having a lot of earthly riches actually equates to going to hell later (Matthew 19:24 "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”"), unless God is truly in the center of our lives. Accepting this Biblical-fact: that a true believer must pray the Lord’s Prayer daily may seem difficult at first. This is because most churches have brainwashed people for years into thinking “do nothing, nothing at all, just mark the front of your Bible with the date you were saved / born-again / etc.”. This daily prayer to God is not “works”. It is obedience of a true believer. No wonder there is no peace on earth yet (Luke 2:14). No one has been praying it properly. Miracles happen when we pray the Lord’s Prayer The moment we say this prayer we become "Righteous" in the eyes of God, and therefore become standing in the presence of God (through the Holy Spirit within us) (Luke 1:19, 1Kings 18:15). A true believer can perform miracles at this moment. This is how Jesus performed miracles: Step 1: Forgive sins Step 2: Miracle Mark gave us a glimpse of this in Mark 2:5, 11, & 12. Without Step1, can’t do Step2. So, for us it is: Step 1: The Lord’s Prayer for the forgiveness of sins Step 2: In the name of Jesus Christ… miracle But without the main ingredient, faith, nothing can be done. Even Jesus Himself could not perform miracles where there was no faith among people of that town (Mark 6:5). He instructed His followers; to perform miracles in His name (John 14:12-14, Mark 16:17-18, Mark 9:39). Go ahead, start praying this prayer daily. And pray it again in the presence of someone in need of a miracle. And don't freak-out when the miracle happens, it would show lack of faith. Jesus said we can move mountains (Matthew 17:20), and that we will do greater miracles than the ones He did! That's right, that's what Jesus said in John 14:12-14. And also in Acts 2:17 “’In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams." We are there now; much closer to the "last days" now than they were back when Acts was written. I believe praying the Lord's Prayer properly will usher-in this new generation of people as predicted in John and Acts.