FreeGrace

Good. The soul doesn't sleep. Is there clear Scriptural evidence of this? I fully agree that mature believers will be rewarded for their service, but what evidence? So you apply Matt 22:14 to a rapture?? The context is the wedding supper. The wording of Rev 19 shows the Bride getting ready for it, and in the next breath we read about King Jesus with His army, arrayed in the same clothes as the wedding guests, coming to earth. Rev 20 beings with Christ on earth, having set up His MK. It seems most reasonable to me that the wedding supper will be one great shindig which launches the MK.

Well, here is the 6th seal, from Rev 6: 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” I don't see any rapture here. What I do find is a huge earthquake that affects every island and mountain. Sounds a lot like a global earthquake. What I also find very interesting is that Rev 11:17 has an earthquake: "Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm." This is the 7th trumpet judgment. Then, Rev 16:20 - 17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21 From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible. This is the 7th bowl judgment. So, an earthquake at the 6th seal that moves EVERY island and mountain, an earthquake at the 7th trumpet with an earthquake and SEVERE hailstorm, and an earthquake at the 7th bowl also that moves every island and mountain, and accompanied by a SEVERE hailstorm. Also seems like the 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl are the same event.

Glad to hear you don't believe in "soul sleep". Where does one find evidence that the Bible describes or defines a resurrection as a harvest? Since you believe that all harvests are connected with a resurrection, how do you explain 1 Cor 15:23? The verse is very clear. All believers will be resurrected when Jesus comes, which is the Second Advent. How do you find 50 days between the dead being resurrected before the living? How does 1 Thess 4 support that? Thanks.

Nope. Didn't help. I tried just before the "h" and after the "s" but neither worked. Duh. Just figured it out. (or followed your instructions correctly. Thanks so much. I wasn't all that thrilled with all that cut and paste and coloring. Trying to figure out your last sentence: "raptured from the to heaven". Do you believe in "soul sleep", since you mention 'sleep' so much? There is no evidence of multiple harvests in the end times. Do you believer there are "harvests" without resurrections? Well, we will agree to disagree. The Bible only speaks of resurrection in the singular, for both the saved and the unsaved. And Rev 20:5 shows the FIRST resurrection is at the Second Advent which is for the saved, and there is another resurrection 1,000 years later, for the unsaved. OK, so you do believe that "rapture" means taken from earth to heaven. However, every believer who dies goes immediately to heaven, and that isn't a "rapture". The word has always been defined as being part of a pretribulation resurrection where all the living and dead saints get new glorified bodies and are taken to heaven. The SDA believe in "soul sleep", that the saved who die sleep in the grave, apparently still in their carcass. But Paul was very clear about what happens when a believer dies. 2 cor 5:8 - Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord. To be "at home with the Lord" doesn't mean sleeping with the Lord. And the "souls under the altar are believers that have died and are in heaven with the Lord awaiting the Second Advent, when they accompany Christ to earth and receive their glorified body.

I think you didn't quote ALL of what I said about that. I think you assume "redeemed" is just another word for "rapture" or "resurrection". I know full well that Rev 14 SAYS that the 144K are "redeemed from the earth". "Being redeemed from the earth does not mean resurrected. However, it does mean raptured to heaven." And, there it is. Your admission of your assumption. But you have no evidence for your assumption. A rapture is not related to redemption in any way. "I am not making that assumption. I am not making ANY assumptions. I have scripture to backup what I am saying. How do we know that the 144,000 are resurrected. Do we need to make any assumption? No, we have scriptural proof that the 144,000 are resurrected. Revelation 14 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. The 144,000 are first fruits unto God and to the Lamb. Here is your proof" Sorry, but that's not proof. The word "firstfruits" can and is used in a variety of ways. I've shown the verses that there is just ONE resurrection for the saved. And NO verse speaking of "rapture". Please define what YOU think "rapture" means. "1 Corinthians 15 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. To summarize. Christ rose from the dead and was considered first fruits of those that sleep. The 144,000 are also resurrected as they are first fruits unto God and to the Lamb. Therefore the 144,000 are resurrected and redeemed from the earth. All supported by the inerrant Word of God." When resurrection is the subject, there is ONLY ONE "firstfruits" and that is Jesus Christ Himself. And 1 Cor 15:23 tells us clearly and specifically that ALL believers will be resurrected "when He comes". So if Rev 14 is about the resurrection of the 144K, then it will be "when He comes" a specific phrase for the Second Advent. ALL believers are resurrected at the same event, which is the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23 and 2 Thess 2:1 are very clear.

Of course I'm aware of the contradictions and errors of modern evangelicals. When people argue for "multiple raptures" and we know that resurrection always goes with "rapture", I see it as arguing for a pre-trib idea. Since you don't believe in a pretrib rapture, why do you push for "multiple raptures"? "The doctrine of the modern evangelicals is based on a flaw. It presupposes that the DEAD HAVE ALREADY RISEN. This is not the case for the dead IN Christ RISE BEFORE the Living are caught away BUT are caught away TOGETHER. Notice the wording: It is, verse 14, "... even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" It does not say "... even so them also which ARE ALIVE in Jesus will God bring with him" Those that Christ brings with Him are those which NOW STILL SLEEP!" OK, I think I see the issue here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that you believe in "soul sleep"; that when a person dies, their soul sleeps and there is no consciousness. "The rest of your answer shows, as I said, that we are not far apart. The only point I would take up is that of the glorified body. You are not wrong in your statements but scripture says that ALL MEN will be resurrected (1st Cor.15:22), and which is fulfilled at the White Throne. But 1st Corinthians 15, starting at verse 35, takes this into account and speaks of ALL bodies having a glory - just different. That is, HITLER will no doubt be cast into the Lake of Fire, but his BODY is TERRESTRIAL with a differing glory to others. It is not only Christians who receive a resurrection body that has glory." Yes, EVERYONE will be resurrected; both the saved and the unsaved. 3 verses say so clearly: Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15. However ONLY the saved will receive an immortal body, a glorified body, just like the resurrection body of Jesus. The unsaved only get back into their mortal bodies that God will raise and they will stand before the GWT judgment and then be cast into the LOF. Do you know why the LOF is also called the "second death"? "The rest of your answer shows, as I said, that we are not far apart. The only point I would take up is that of the glorified body. You are not wrong in your statements but scripture says that ALL MEN will be resurrected (1st Cor.15:22), and which is fulfilled at the White Throne. But 1st Corinthians 15, starting at verse 35, takes this into account and speaks of ALL bodies having a glory - just different. That is, HITLER will no doubt be cast into the Lake of Fire, but his BODY is TERRESTRIAL with a differing glory to others. It is not only Christians who receive a resurrection body that has glory." I will await for your answer to why the LOF is also called the second death. "It's 2 a.m. here so I'm turning in, but its been very stimulating to swap ideas with you. I'll pick up again tomorrow. God bless." I really enjoy discussing Scripture! Thanks for the "swap". God bless you too!

Aren't you aware of the "pre-tribulation rapture"? Most evangelicals believe that Jesus comes to earth with the saints already in heaven, just before the Tribulation, and gathers up (raptures) all the living believers, glorifies all their bodies, and then takes them to heaven. Never heard of this? Wow. Again, the vast majority of evangelicals believe this. Why would you think this is a "mysterious saying"? It is all over evangelicalism. "So let me just repeat that the rapture is to the air of the Troposphere where there are clouds. There the Church meets the Lord who has made the journey from "above all heavens". There, the Church is judged as per Romans 14:10 and 2nd Corinthians 5:10, and the parables of the kingdom. Our Lord Jesus then returns to EARTH - not heaven (Rev.19)." OK, good. You don't believe in a pre-trib rapture. Whether Jesus holds the Bema in the clouds or on earth when He sets up the MK isn't an issue for me. I don't see any verse that tells us exactly when it will be. What is obvious (or should be) is that the Bema will be held when all the believers have their new glorified bodies. "As to your other arguments, I have nothing more to add. A "firstfruit" is part of a harvest. Besides the firstfruits redeemed from the earth" in Revelation 14, there are TWO MORE harvests at the end of the Chapter. The wording of Luke 21:36 says plainly that to escape the Great Tribulation you must (i) be counted worthy, and (ii) you will "stand" before the Son of man - Who, according to Matthew 24 is still in the clouds. The wording of Revelation 3:10 is "kept FROM ... ", NOT, "kept IN ..."." It can be, but doesn't mean in every case it is. But that's how the pre-tribbers have to argue in order to have their multiple "raptures". In 1 Cor 15:23 there are only two groups that are resurrected: Jesus is the first one and then all the rest of the believers. "The wording of 1st Thessalonians 4:13-17 is plain. At the time of resurrection of those asleep IN Christ there will be a "catching away" to the clouds. Since Enoch, rapture is a fact of the Bible. Israel are not IN Christ seeing as their unbelief remains to the end (Rom.11). That means their resurrection is NOT together with those IN Christ. Matthew 24 puts their resurrection and gathering from the "four winds" (only Israel is dispersed to the four winds) AFTER the Great Tribulation. This done by angels and since they leave the dust of one nation to be caught away to Canaan, they too are raptured - but like Philip in Acts 8 - horizontally." Since I've "done battle" with a huge host of pre-tribbers and their claim that all the resurrected believers are taken to heaven, I really don't like the word "rapture". The Bible says "gathered up" in 2 Thess 2:1 and "caught up" in 1 Thess 4. "I believe that despite our differences, we are not far apart. I believe that if you stop shadow boxing the quote above, you will not have to deny the harvests that both old and new testaments show. You will agree that harvests imply some ripe first and some later. And I'm sure you know Christians who are slothful and slovenly and who are nowhere near being ripe and mature for a harvest." I'm not "shadow boxing". And I don't see the singular resurrection as a harvest and the Bible doesn't refer to the resurrection as a harvest. What I will continue to deny is multiple resurrections. I don't see how anyone who has read john 5:29 and Acts 24:15 would think so. As for Dan 12:1,2 the deliverance of Israel is when Jesus kills all the armies who are attacking it. It is a physical deliverance, not a resurrection of Jews. "Multiple raptures are a fact of scripture. Enoch, Elijah, our Lord Jesus, Philip, Paul and John have been "caught away" (harpazo - Gk.). Multiple resurrections are also a fact of scripture." No evidence for a rapture of Enoch or Elijah. They were simply taken to heaven, but not in glorified bodies. They are still awaiting their first physical death, which will occur during the Tribulation as they are the 2 witnesses. I see no multiple raptures/resurrections in Scripture, a you seem to. Yes, there have been a number of humans who have been brought back to life, but they came back into their mortal human body. There is zero evidence that any of them had immortal bodies. That's the only resurrection that is important; when you get an immortal body. When I say "resurrection", I am referring to 1 Cor 15 when believers receive an immortal body, glorified and like Christ's resurrection body. "The boy of Zareptah, the Shunamite's boy, three people during Jesus' ministry, Jesus Himself, a group of known saints in Matthew 27:52-53, Tabitha by Peter and a man by Paul all were declared dead by scripture, and lived again." Of all these, only Jesus received an immortal glorified body. No one else has yet. "Moses' body was fought for and his presence on the mount of Transfiguration is proof that he too is resurrected. His absence on earth is proof of rapture." Moses died on the mountain. We have no details as to the fighting over his body. His presence on the mount of Transfiguration doesn't prove a resurrection. Even Elijah came back to a seance to tell Saul that he was about to die for his unfaithfulness. That was not a resurrection. "The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 are prophesied to die, be resurrected before the whole earth and then be raptured." They come back to life in the body they came to earth with. If you call this a resurrection, in the biblical sense, then how in the world can you really believe 1 Cor 15:23?

I defend truth at all costs. There is no evidence for multiple resurrections of the saved. The Bible speaks of resurrection only in the singular. And there is no evidence that Jesus will take glorified believers to heaven. Those who believe in a pretrib rapture need multiple resurrections to make their doctrine work. The resurrection of the saved is clearly noted at the end of the Tribulation from 2 Thess 2:1 and Rev 20:4-6. And the resurrection of the unsaved will be 1,000 years later, from Rev 20:5. I believe what the Bible says plainly. Interpretation isn't necessary when a verse is plainly stated. And interpretation isn't possible when the Bible is silent about a claim.

OK, let's examine v.1-2 a little more carefully. 1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. First, the words "your people" refers to Michael, who PROTECTS Daniel's "people". Then, v.1 continues with the Great Tribulation (time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then). And we find "your people" again, and defined specifically as "everyone whose name is found written in the book". So, tell me what book this refers to. And the point is that the Jews WILL BE DELIVERED. What does that mean? It clearly means that at the Second Advent, when Jesus comes back, He will deliver Israel from the enemy and win the battle of Armageddon. Then in v.2 we have the general plan of the resurrection of the human race; the saved and the unsaved. Which reaches far more than just Jews. So, it is impossible to believe that there will be a separate resurrection for Jews only. "Luke 21:36 DOES deal with the resurrection. The worthy "STAND" before the Son of man. See Revelation 20:12 and the dead "standing". It is reasonably plain that a dead man cannot stand unless he is made alive again." Does this verse teach that Jesus will take resurrected believers to heaven? "In your appraisal of the "worthy" you have agreed with @Vine Abider. That was his contention from the beginning - that those found mature would be harvested first. But, just so I'm in the picture, where, and by who, was the statement made that our "Lord Jesus carries glorified people off to heaven." You use it often. In your last paragraph you turn it into a question. Surely, if you've been using this statement to accost your opponents, you will know where it came from. It is avery strange accusation because 1st Thessalonians 4 explains the opposite - how the saints will be with the lord when HE COMES. This is confirmed by Enoch in Jude and further in Revelation 19." No, I didn't agree that mature believers would be "harvested". In fact, I never use the word "harvested" in relation to resurrection because it isn't. What I believe is that only mature believers will not experience the wrath that God will pour out on the earth during the Tribulation. But they will STILL be on earth, just as Israel was IN Egypt during the plagues, but didn't experience any of them. "And if you want to maintain that the rapture is only for the "worthy", you set yourself up for a massive problem." I maintain that there is NO rapture, as in Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. So your comment demonstrates that you have misunderstood me. " @Vine Abider has a good argument. The rapture is a harvest. The angels do it. The Rapture achieves two things. It is (1) an escape for the Overcomer of apostate Church life. It is a PRIZE for the first ripe (Phil.3:14), and (2) like Philip in Acts 8, it is a TRANSPORT method to move the House of God to the Judgment Seat of Christ. If it is an harvest, then no farmer, especially God, harvests unripe crops. This is clearly shown in the parable of the Tares. If there are firstfruits then there is that portion of the crop that IS NOT firstfruits. If there is "worthy" Christians the there are "unworthy Christians". If both are judged at one place, then there MUST be multiple gatherings. That which must be by default, that which must be by logic, and that which is implied carry the same power in grammar as an outright statement." I disagree because there is no verse that equates resurrection with a harvest. 1 Cor 15:23 uses "firstfruits" to only mean the first human to receive a glorified body. All your defense for a pretrib rapture fails because there is only one resurrection of the saved, and that resurrection will occur at the Second Advent. And there is no trip to heaven as there are no verses that say so.

The problem is that you have to assume that the 144K "were redeemed from the earth" means resurrected and raptured to heaven. To "redeem" is far different than to "resurrect". It is this kind of assumption that leads one astray.

I think you are conflating 2 verses. 1 Cor 15:23 includes everyone who is saved and will occur at one event, which is "when He comes". Dan 12:2 isn't about Jew only. Why would anyone think that? Dean 12:2 says the same thing as John 5:29 and Acts 24:15. Two resurrections of all humans. One for the saved and one for the unsaved. Is there any evidence that proves there are more resurrections than these 3 verses plainly say? "If scripture says that the end of the age is a harvest (Matt.13:39) then this harvest must be defined by scripture and nature. Firstfruits, general harvest and gleanings are a fact of scripture and nature." Where does Scripture define or describe either resurrection as a "harvest". Isn't that jusgt an assumption? In Rev 14, there is a harvest of the earth, and it will be a bloody mess. That is simply another way to describe the Tribulation. "But Luke 21:35-36 is pretty plain language. It reads; 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." Clearly, this is about the Great Tribulation. But does it address either resurrection? No. Does it address Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven? No. "The context is Great Tribulation sometime after the Fig Tree shows leaves. Verse 35 says it comes upon the "whole earth". Usually, Christians accept that Jesus does not lie, so it means that not a corner or cave is left out. In verse 36 the escape then, by default, must be outside of the "whole earth". Added to this, Matthew 24 says that our Lord is in the clouds until "AFTER the Tribulation of those days". So to "stand" before the Son of man can only mean that the "worthy" are in the clouds. And the word "worthy" implies that some will be "UN-worthy" to escape. If 1st Thessalonians 4 say that the dead in Christ rise, it "plainly" makes no difference between the "worthy" and "unworthy" the qualification is IN Christ. PLAINLY then there is an escape for the worthy, and a later harvest for the unworthy because they don't escape." The key is only those who "are worthy" will escape the "things that shall come to pass". Such wording doesn't clearly state that they will not be there, but only that they will escape them. This is parallel to Rev 3:10, which says basically the same thing. Both are saying that only faithful believers will be "kept from the hour of trial". If you want to use these verses to support a pre-trib rapture, the problem is that these verses are only about faithful believers. What would happen to the unfaithful believers? They would miss "the rapture". Is that your position? "But his insistence on "the Lord takes glorified saints to heaven" is strange. I don't want to plod through pages of postings, so maybe he, or you can show me when this was said - and by who. Sometimes, and I make not accusation here, brothers who are not sure of their position, make wild statements, accord them to others and then pound them." And what's "strange" about that? Isn't that the whole point of "the rapture"? Doesn't the pre-trib rapture doctrine that Jesus comes to the clouds and resurrects the dead believers and changes the living believers and then takes the whole the bunch to heaven to miss the Trib completely?

Could you point out what isn't clear in my posts? Thanks.

You are saying that I am making "baseless claims"??? There are verses that plainly say there is only 1 resurrection. That's not a baseless claim. There is a verse that says that "those who belong to Him" (meaning ALL believers) will be resurrected "when He comes". That's not a baseless claim. You STILL have not provided any verse that plainly describes Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. That's a baseless claim. No verse says that. And you haven't proven that the verses I have quoted say or mean something else. So you shouldn't throw out such a baseless claim at me when you yourself are doing that. Find me any verse that plainly describes Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, and I'll accept "the rapture".

The reason I don't accept verses that have been presented is because there are no words that show Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. They have to be "read into the verse" to come to such a conclusion. That's not how the Bereans did it. Neither will I. Also, no one has proven that the verses that plainly state there will be one resurrection and will include ALL believers at the Second Advent. So why should I accept verses that aren't plain when I do have verses that are?

I disagree. Where are the plainly stated verses about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven? That's the whole issue if one wants to prove "the rapture". What is "apparent" is what is plainly said. And I've given plainly stated verses. Anyone can "see" whatever they want to see, but the "buck stops" with clearly stated verses. And there are no such verses about multiple raptures. Only speculation, assumption, or presumption. I haven't been given my opinion here. I have been giving plainly stated verses, which others don't agree with. But they can't provide plainly stated verses that support their views. I never said anything about "more accurate Berean" than others. I have no idea how any poster studies Scripture. I explained how I study Scripture. It's evidence based. If anyone wants to persuade me to believe that Jesus will take glorifed believers to heaven, then just give me a clearly stated verse about it. That would end the discussion. So far, there hasn't been any such verse related to the single resurrection. Do you have any clearly stated verses about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven?

Well, first, you need clear Scripture about the "parousia of Christ". I have shown you clear verses that there is just one resurrection of the saved, and it will occur "when he comes", meaning the Second Advent. So nothing "changes". It has all been laid out very clearly. You just have to know the verses. And you do, because I have shown them to you. "2) 1 Cor. 15:21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. ... 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His Parousia. ... 52 For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”" I don't know what you mean by "everything changes" at the Parousia. It's really quite straightforward. In v.21 we have the subject of the context; the resurrection of the saved. First human to receive a glorified body is Jesus Himself (v.23). Then, ALL believers will be resurrected. I take issue with your translation. The original says "at the coming of Him". That is a single event. And ALL believers will be there and receive their glorified body. v.52 speaks of the living believers "when he comes". Their "change" is receiving their glorified body. "The resurrection of the dead at the Parousia of Christ means that our bodies will be resurrected. Not just our souls will be taken t0 heaven, as is the case for those who die before this, but also our transfigured bodies; just as was the transfigured body of Christ." Read 1 Thess 4. The souls of the dead will return with Christ at the Second Advent. So I don't understand your comment "not just our souls will be taken to heaven". What verse says anything about being taken to heaven "when He comes"? Again, you need verses that say what you say.

Jesus told us that the poor man Lazarus was "carried by angels" to Abraham's bosom in Luke 16. That's how he was taken. So, since Christ's ascension ALL saints now go to heaven when they die, no doubt they are taken by angels. Probably like an escort. I don't believe anyone gets "beamed up" like on Star Trek. If Lazarus was taken by angels, so does everyone else. So your view regarding how martyrs got to heaven isn't supported by plain language. They all would get there the same way everyone else who dies gets there. If they did, then 1 Cor 15:23 can't be true. Can you explain that verse from your view?

Not really. I'm pointing out that doctrines that have no evidence are what is in error. So, instead of claiming pre-tribbers are "making things up", I believe that they are assuming or presuming things that the Bible doesn't say. I use the Berean study method, as described in Acts 17:11. They heard what Paul preached and "searched the Scriptures to see if what Paul said was true". And they found that He was true because what he said is what the Bible says. So, if there will be pre-tribulation rapture, why doesn't the Bible describe it anywhere? There is no evidence for it. And I have shown from various verses that there is only 1 resurrection event, which will include all believers at that event. I have not shown disrespect to the opinions of others. I have been asking for verses that say what they say, like the Bereans.

The bad thing is holding to a doctrine that isn't found in Scripture. What's up with that?!

Did it ever occur to you that both Rev 14 and Rev 4 are about saints who have died so are already IN heaven? Since neither chapter describes any event about being resurrected/glorified and being taken to heaven. "Maybe you are denying the facts. Read the verses I just posted." Well, of course I did. Which is why I am able to tell you that none of them describe a trip to heaven after being resurrected/glorified. I'd say that you just haven't read any of the verses I've posted that very clearly in plain language describe a singular resurrection, which will involve ALL believers and occur WHEN Christ returns to earth. "We can prove that the gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God. You can deny the truth all you want. That's your choice." Interesting. You say "we can prove...". But, where is that proof? That is what you are lacking. Ive given the verses that clearly show a single resurrection for all believers which will occur at the Second Advent. "I guess it's clear if you gloss over all the verses that say differently. You see what you want to see." Yes, you have done a LOT of guessing, regarding your views. What you STILL don't have are any verses that actually describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, which would be the case if 1 Thess 4 was describing your view. But, in EVERY passage that deals with resurrection, there is NO MENTION of any such trip to heaven.

Do you really think anyone could provide a reasonable response to such a very long post? Please, already. And as for all of the verses you quoted, none of them describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. So just accept that fact. If there were going to be a glorified trip to heaven, there would be at least one verse that would describe it. And in ALL of the verses about resurrection and the "gathering" or being "caught up together", NONE of them mention Jesus taking them to heaven. So there is zero evidence for a "rapture" that includes Jesus taking believers to heaven after receiving a glorified body. And you have not provided any evidence for multiple resurrections. You can only speculate that there are, by trying to force the Second Advent in various passages to represent different resurrections. But again, the Bible is quite clear that there will be just ONE resurrection, which will be for "those who belong to Him" (1 Cor 15:23) and it will occur "WHEN He comes" (1 Cor 15:23) which is a reference to the Second Advent, just as 2 Thess 2:1 is. The Bible speaks of resurrection ONLY in the singular, both for the saved and for the unsaved. And they are 1,000 years apart, as Rev 20:5 very plainly says.

How come there are no verses at all about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven? And how come 1 Cor 15:23 tells us specifically WHEN the singular resurrection occurs, which is "when He comes", a clear reference to the Second Advent. Also, 2 Thess 2:1 says the same thing. "The dead in Christ rise first at the coming of Jesus. Then Jesus comes again for the alive Church. At that point part of the Jews eyes are opened as the fullness of the Gentiles has come. " Please prove from Scripture that the dead are resurrected at one point in time and the living believers are "changed in the twinkling of the eye" at another point. Rather, 1 Thess 4 is very clear that the living believers will be "caught up TOGETHER with the ones from heaven" . So this proves that both the dead saints from heaven and the living believers from earth all receive their glorified bodies at the SAME EVENT. "Then Jesus comes for the 144,000 first fruits of the next harvest. After that Jesus returns for this harvest, his second bride, the chosen bride at the 6th seal." Please explain who exactly will be in this "next harvest". And then WHEN is "this harvest, His second bride"? How do you know when the 6th seal will be broken? "Jesus also returns at the end of wrath and there is a resurrection. So the point is the righteous are raised more than once. When He comes, those that are His at His coming are raised." Here is a "summary" of all these supposed resurrections: 1. the dead in Christ in the first resurrection. You haven't explained if that is just "the church" who have already died or includes all OT saints as well. 2. the living believers will be in a second resurrection, in spite of 1 Cor 15:23 and 1 Thess 4. 3. A third resurrection will include the 144K of the "next harvest". No mention of exactly when that will be. 4. A fourth resurrection will be for "this harvest, the second bride at the 6th seal". Yet there is no evidence from Scripture about this. 5. A fifth resurrection will occur at the "end of wrath". But no explanation of who will be in that resurrection. Your claim about "the righteous are raised more than once" is absurd. No saved person will be resurrected more than once. And you haven't proven from Scripture with clear verses about all these supposed resurrections, or who is in some of them. 1 Cor 15:23 refutes all of this. "But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him." This verse is crystal clear. After the resurrection of Christ, as firstfruits, THEN, "those who belong to Him", which means ALL saved people from Adam on, will be resurrected, WHEN He comes, which is the Second Advent. So, as 1 Thess 4 shows, all believers will be glorified at the same event. And 2 Thess 2:1 says the same thing. And Rev 20:4-6 plainly says that the tribulational martyrs are in the FIRST resurrection, and the only resurrection left is going to be 1,000 years later, which is the singular resurrection of the unbelievers. 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

I'm still not sure what his position or point is yet. His last few posts were simply requotes of the verses I have quoted. Maybe he'll answer your post.

My point is that there are only 2 resurrections of humans; one for the saved and one for the unsaved. The one for the saved includes all the living believers who will be "changed" in the air. The resurrection of the saved will occur at the Second Advent, which will be 1,000 years before the resurrection of the unsaved.

I don't understand your post. All you did was requote the verses I quoted, which prove that there will be A resurrection for the saved and A resurrection for the unsaved. And you gave no explanation or anything. So, do you have a point of disagreement or not? You only asked this one question regarding Dan 12, not 2: Why does it not say ALL that sleep in the ground shall be raised? It does qualify that some are raised to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 2 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. So, I'll ask you a very obvious question: why would anyone think that the Bible SHOULD say "all that sleep in the ground"? Since we know from several other NT verses that there will be believers ALIVE at the resurrection of the saved, they AREN'T sleeping in the ground. So that would explain why the author wrote "many of them". Because not ALL OF THEM will be sleeping in the ground. Certainly, most will be.