FreeGrace

So you agree with typos, huh. Anyway, the book is idiotic.

Are you God's spokesman, or something? You don't know what you are talking about. It is clear there are no details to support the use of "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2 and I've proven that the verb form for 'hayah' in v.2 IS translated as "became" in other verses, plus many verses that have "was" are synonymous with "became". Such as: Mary WAS the wife of Joseph. Mary BECAME the wife of Joseph. No different. So the earth DID become a wasteland. Only when one keeps presupposing what isn't even real. Like, the earth was created formless. What a hoot. No such thing, as I've proven over and over. Your failure to grasp that fact is not my concern. Obviously you are allergic to facts. your snarkiness continues, I see. Revealing your soul again. I've read the Bible through in less than a year, and since then (over 22 years) read through the NT monthly. I doubt you've come close to that. So leave your snarkiness elsewhere. The words "tohu wabohu" refute your erroneous understanding of Gen 1:2ff. Just your erroneous opinion. I'm sorry that you are just not getting it. We KNOW what "tohu wabohu" means from Jer 4 and Isa 34 and you CAN'T CHANGE THAT FACT. So all your whining about "6 days of creation" is a myth. It doesn't matter what your experts say. Apparently your rather naive, but experts in every field disagree with each other. The Septuagint begins v.2 with "but", showing a change in state. The facts are on my side. So what? I've PROVEN what "tohu wabohu" mean from Jer 4 and Isa 34. So your "experts" failed. Even the Septuagint translated "tohu" as "unsightly", a FAR CRY from the idiot "formless". They're lazy. What an idiotic unsubstantiated comment. I have never read a Scofield Bible. And I doubt he was aware of the significance of "tohu wabohu", given the 2 other times they appear in the OT. What a stupid idea. Of course not. I don't even care the number of years older than Adam the earth is. The number is irrelevant. The point is what the Hebrew says, which you simply reject, in spite of proving their meaning from the other times they appear in the OT. What a hoot! First, you try to defend "tohu" meaning "formless" because God creates in baby steps, but the LXX translated "tohu" as "unsightly". Are you smarter than any of the translators who worked on the LXX? No. They knew better than to translate "tohu" as "formless" because the state of being doesn't exist in a 3 dimensional world. Oh, did you forget the source you quoted about the difference between shape and form? Seems so. You need to work on your memory a bit. Maybe take some Prevagen or something. Well, that would be a stupid supposition. Why do you come up with such grotesque statements? So, guilt by association, huh. Doesn't work that way. And your comments are totally irrelevanat anyway. I've been deep in the literal Hebrew of Scripture, and this is what your apparently little mind comes up with. Very pathetic. I am defending what the Hebrew SAYS. Directly in line with God's Word. Neither is the fate of people who have been given facts and yet reject them. You haven't used ANY exegesis on any word yet. So your claim here is just another wasted bit of nonsense. I've shown you how the LXX translates v.2 and how other translations render the key words in the other occurrences in the OT. FACT. See? There you do it again. Making up nonsense. I don't have "people" that I read. It's you who keep quoting your hand picked 'experts' who don't have the sense to understand how "tohu wabohu" are used in passages that warn of coming DISASTER to the land. More ridiculous questions. You'll learn when you enter eternity. How interesting. Based on what, may I ask? There's lots of various views as to WHY the earth is much older than Adam. The ONLY legitimate one is based on what "tohu wabohu" mean, from her 4 and Isa 34. Everything else is junk. Even now, you're just not looking. That is proven from all the silly questions you keep asking after I've answered them. You've been deceived beyond reason. Ex 20:11 doesn't use bara, but rather asah. I've shown the difference and even color coded words to show which words in Gen 1:26,27 refer to bara and which to asah. And you never even mentioned it. That's called cherry picking. Ignore what refutes you and just keep going with your own opinions. See again? I've never attacked anything, other than your weird ideas. When God restored the earth for man's use, the number 7 is very significant. You really think Adam sinned before Satan. Wow, how naive can one get!! Ezek 28 has Satan in Eden, the garden of God BEFORE he rebelled. When we get to Satan in Genesis, he was already fallen. But maybe you just can't figure that out. All of God's creation is very good. Not "unsightly", not "formless" (doesn't exist). And all of God's restoration is also very good. You have the nutty notion that God created the earth in baby steps or stages. Well, there's just no support for that. Rather, Psa 33:6,9 say that God spoke everything into existence. He doesn't need steps or stages. Why you don't realize that is amazing. Nothing to fit in because God didn't give details of HOW the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland. As I asked before, why don't you leave everyone else out of this. Deal with my facts only. I don't care a whit what others think about an old earth. I KNOW what the Bible says because I've studied the words, unlike yourself. And you need to stop it. I see you are basically describing what you have been doing. The first step in recovery is to admit your error. Coming from a closed minded, subjective person who doesn't want to hear the facts. No, just defending what the Bible actually says, from the original. And I've proven it, too. Not that you are objective enough to admit it. Just the very text itself, and how the key words are translated elsewhere. Instead of spewing your hate, why don't you actually prove that I've twisted an interpretation. You simply accept what the KJV wrote, without thinking. You even accept the unreal state of "formless", which does NOT exist in a 3 dimensional world. Nothing you've posted has been logical. The questions you ask are about details that God hasn't given. You wouldn't know reason from a rock. based on your repeated questions, it seems you are not telling the truth. You keep asking questions that I have answered. That, or you have a very short attention span. Your problem is several factors. 1. the meaning of "tohu wabohu" is shown clearly from Jer 4 and Isa 34 and means the same thing in Gen 1:2. And you reject that fact. 2. the KJV of Gen 1:1,2 contradicts Isa 45:18 and you won't address it. KJV says God created the earth tohu, and Isa 45:18 says God didn't create the earth tohu. 3. "formlessness" does not exist as a state of being in a 3 dimensional world. But since you insist it does, can you tell the thread how many dimensions the world was in during that first baby step of God's creation? You think God created the world formless. So, how many dimensions did God create in that first step? I don't actually expect any answers from you. Because you don't have any. You ignore what you know you can't answer.

How many times have I already told you: God didn't give us any details. Why hasn't that sunk into your skull? And why can't you understand that Jer 4 is the context to understand how "tohu wabohu" is used; to describe the total destruction of the land. Same for Isa 34:11. So you are going to apply a lot of presuppositions about earth MORE than simply what the Bible says? Rather odd. I couldn't care less what you think of it and call it. The Hebrew "tohu wabohu" has been shown HOW they are used together; they describe the total destruction of land. You are just dishonest. By citing my source; biblehub.com, anyone and everyone is free to use the site to see how EVERY translation handles "tohu" in all 10 verses, and in the 2 passages where "tohu wabohu" describes total destruction of land. So your claim about my picking and choosing is bogus. Why do you think the gospel is synonymous with the age of earth? The destructive heresy here is young earth. Satan has deceived many evangelicals into thinking the earth is extremely young. All to the laughter of scientists who have measured many things in the universe and can prove the universe/earth is much much older. Secular geologists have nothing to do with understanding Hebrew and what "tohu wabohu" means and how they are used. But you love silly questions. What is this "gap flood" that you mention? And where is your explanation of that other flood you mentioned that I've never heard of? Or, do you just love to make up stuff? Seems you just can't comprehend plain English. God gave no details in Genesis regarding who, how, or why the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland. But you will learn all about it in eternity. So, is this an indictment or something? What folly. Evolution demands an old earth, but an old earth, as presented in the Bible has NO NEED for evolution. It seems the YEC are simply incapable of understanding the difference. Gen 1:1 is original creation of the universe/earth. By God Himself. how does that fit in with evolution? It doesn't. Gen 1:2 informs us that the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland, but no details. And God began the process of restoration. How does that fit in with evolution? It doesn't. God's Word isn't dependent on anything. But you should believe what it teaches. You simply have no clue. Once again, I must remind you that God gave no details, so why would there be any such accounting? I guess you're just made at God for leaving out all details. But, don't despair. He gave us Jeremiah 4 and Isa 34 where it is crystal clear what "tohu wabohu" describes. So we can understand Gen 1:2. How many times do you need repetition? Are you having difficulties remembering what you've been told? Romans 5 only deals with the time since man was on earth. Meaning, no death or disease from the time Adam was created until he rebelled. Romans 5 does not refer to anything BEFORE the restoration. Your comments are getting pretty pathetic. The Bible is correct. It's you and your YEC cohorts who don't believe the Bible. Since God didn't give any details about why the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland, there is nothing in the rest of the Bible that would refer to what happened BEFORE the earth became a wasteland. That should be obvious. It is obvious to open minded and objective people. Of course God's Word is complete. And what would "new scientific information" have to do with anything? Again, your ridiculous questions are appalling. You should know better, but your bias has blinded you to objective thought. All you do is keep repeating your very silly questions.

I have that book by Snake. I wasn't impressed. This on the Amazon site for the book. "A Biblical Case for an Old Earth seeks to address the gap between theistic evolutionism and young-earth creationism by finally paying due attention to the biblical aspect of the debate. Both a scientist and a preacher, David Snoke presents a theological study of several themes in the evolution discussion, including the balance theme of Scripture and the day-age interpretation. Complete with an appendix that gives a literal translation of Genesis 1-11, this intriguing study will interest both scientists and lay Christians who want to dig into the faith-science intersection." I found the "day-age" view rather untenable. For me, it's all about "tohu wabohu" and what those 2 words describe, which we know from Jer 4 and Isa 34:11.

Since everything God creates is good, the heavens and earth were complete and good. Psa 33:6,9 The only "gaseous state" is all the hot air coming out of your posts. lol Everything you've posted above is the state of being of the earth AFTER it became an uninhabitable wasteland. You're free to your own machinations, but is is obvious to open minded and objective people that for the earth to become an uninhabitable wasteland, would take some time. No doubt. Since God hasn't given man ANY details about what happened BEFORE "tohu wabohu" such questions are a waste of time and frivolous. All man needs to know is the state of being before He restored the earth for man's use. Nothing before that is relevant to man's existence on earth.

Unlike you, RdJ is an objective and open minded person who HEARS the facts and SEES the evidence. Believing that words that are used to describe total disaster on the land can also be used to describe original creation is worse than absurd. It is insanity. "tohu wabohu" occur together only 3 times in the OT. There is nothing in Gen 1 that helps us English speakers understand what is being described, but in the other 2 passages, we get a very clear picture of coming DISASTER to the land. That is precisely WHY Jeremiah quoted from Gen 1:2 and used those same 2 words to describe what was coming to the land. He understood Moses perfectly, which is WHY he quoted from Gen 1:2. Moses wasn't trying to do anything but writing down what the Holy Spirit influenced him to. And he wrote down that the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland, just like what happened in Jer 4 and Isa 34. Correction. "as TRANSLATED". But difference. Totally ignoring the meaning of the Hebrew. We're not talking verses but Hebrew words and how they are used in the OT. To think that God created the earth in steps, and the first step was so LOUSY that Jeremiah quoted from Moses to describe what was coming to Israel is the height of ignorance. God speaks finished products into existence. It's no sweat for Him. Why you think He created the earth in steps is nonsense. Esp thinking that "uninhabitable wasteland" was His initial step. Why are you trying to hard to demonstrate your denseness? Creation is 'bara' and 'made' is asah. There are NO verses that say that God created everything in 6 days. bara is in Gen 1:1 and NOT in Ex 20:11. How many times have I told you that? No, it allows for whatever was on earth before it became an uninhabitable wasteland, but your bias won't allow you to grasp any of this. There was no death, disease or suffering AFTER God restored the earth for man's use, until the Fall. That is just weird. The time gap (no theory) accepts however old earth has been measured to be. There is no "explaining away". That's on the YEC side. They must explain away the huge contradiction between the KJV of Gen 1:1,2 with Isa 45:18. Proper understanding of "tohu wabohu" removes ALL contradiction. Until you explain what this so-called "Lucifer's flood" is and where you read about it, I cannot answer any questions about it. The Bible makes no mention of such a thing. Wrong again. The Bible clearly describes a global flood. You're going to have to explain that, since what you say false on its face. You need to prove that it doesn't. The time gap is about long ages. Oh, that's hilarious. The gap in time has nothing to do with the gospel. Why do you think it does? You're just confused. Very confused. While evolution demands an old earth, an old earth doesn't need evolution at all. But it seems you have conflated the two, without warrant. No, I don't. Please quit talking about 'they'. I don't defend anyone. I defend the truth found in Scripture. Deal with me, if you're not afraid to. I strongly disagree with all "gap theorists" who don't defend the meaning of "tohu wabohu". Whatever else "they" may argue is useless. If you want to refute ME, then deal with what I say, and leave out all the "they's" out there. And I totally agree. In fact, in the original Hebrew, there are 2 deaths mentioned in 3:27. "in the DAY that you eat of it, DYING, you shall DIE". That's the literal Hebrew. The phrase "in the day" specifically refers to the day they would eat the fruit. "dying" refers to the process of physical death, which began on that day. "die" refers to the spiritual death that they experienced on that day. They became separated from God, as proven by their hiding when the Lord came for a visit in the cool of the evening. Not quite. When the Bible speaks of Christ's death, it refers to His own spiritual death. Why did Jesus scream from the cross, "My God, My God, why have YOU forsaken Me?" While He was bearing the penalty for sin, He was separated from God the Father and God the Spirit. He was spiritually dead, and physically alive. When He finished bearing the sins of the world, what did He say? "It is finished". Or 'tetelastai' in the Greek. What does it mean? "Paid in FULL". How could Jesus say that if His physical death was necessary to pay for the sins of man? He couldn't. His physical death was by His own accord. He actually dismissed His spirit. Most translations of John 19:30 have "gave up His spirit", one says "handed over the spirit", others say yielded up/handed over the spirit. Not when one realizes that NOTHING that occurred before the earth became a wasteland has any relevance to man's time on earth. And that's the point. Gen 1:1 said that God created (bara) the heavens and earth. But you seem to NOT WANT TO understand the difference. The difference between us is that I'm a student of the WORD and you are only interested in a poorly worded translation of the Word. Making everything in 6 days isn't creation. It's a 6 day restoration. All this is proven by how "tohu wabohu" is used in Jer and Isa. And REFUTES the YEC. I'm going to stop you right here. Let's look at these 2 verses again: 26 - Then God said, “Let us make (asah) mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” 27 So God created (bara) mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created (bara)them; male and female he created (bara) them. These are NOT "interchangeable" as you presume. Gen 2:7 proves that they are not the same. Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. I've color coded words in 2:7 to match what they refer to back in 1:26 and 27. In v.26 there is "asah", to make. Red. Just like the red words in 2:7, "God formed man from dust". God MADE man from dust. He made something from something. Then, in v27 we have bara, which means to create. And in 2:7 the blue words refer to what God CREATED out of nothing. The "breath of life" wasn't created out of something, like the body of Adam. The body of Adam was made (asah). The SOUL of Adam was created. You keep making that silly mistake about Ex 20:11. It doesn't say God CREATED the universe in 6 days. It says God MADE everything in 6 days. Those kind of theologicans are delusional. What garbage. Tohu wabohu are descriptors of a state of being of land. In Gen 1:2 the state of the earth. In Jer 4:23 and isa 34:11, the state of the land AFTER total disaster hits. Those "theologians" probably worship at the same young earth altar as you do. Pure nonsense. Both Jeremiah and Isaiah were describing coming DISASTER to the land. To say that God's first stage or step in creating earth is comparable to disaster is insane. I've NEVER even suggested that "tohu wabohu" infers judgment. The words simply DESCRIBE a state of being, which is an uninhabitable wasteland. Period. You need to quit reading about what so-called gap theorists say. I'm not one of them. If you want to be honest, deal only with what I've presented. I have a book by a believer who believes in the nutty "day-age" gap theory. Total nonsense. Just deal with what I have presented. You are wasting your time telling me what others claim. I don't care. I know what the Bible says. Prove ME wrong, if you can. But, I've already proven YOU wrong. Over and over.

As a comedian, I'd suggest you keep your day job. Of course he was! Obviously. Jeremiah was warning of what would BECOME of the land by the besieging army, just as what DID BECOME of planet earth. So you still think God's "creative abilities" ain't all that good, huh. That He can't just simply speak a fully finished planet into existence. Well, I reject such foolishness. You had it right above about Jeremiah quoting Gen 1:2 for EFFECT. He knew what was coming; the land would be "so completely destroyed". Exactly! But then, you blow it completely by still thinking that God's creative abilities BEGIN with something that looks like it's been totally destroyed. You really take the cake. Oh, I'm very impressed with proof. And you have once again proved how little respect you have for God's creative abilities. KJV says that God created (bara) the earth and the earth wa tohu. But Isa 45:18 says that God did NOT create (bara) the earth tohu. And you still haven't woken up. Or smelled the coffee. There you go again, making wildly untrue claims, of which you know nothing. And where am I getting this approval? Are you feeling well? I've proved my view from Scripture, unlike yourself. Do all these insults you throw make you feel better about yourself? Lies are what you post. even liquids take on the FORM of their container. Ever heard of a puddle? Does that have a form or not? What does any of this have to do with your very lousy translation of Gen 1:2? Focus. And nothing is, unless one uses the word in a COMPARATIVE SENSE only. You STILL haven't proven what is formless as a state of being. Keep trying. Wow. What "proof". Except you don't even believe what Moses wrote in Gen 1:2, which skewers everything that follows. OK, keep throwing your childish insults. Doesn't matter. I have the truth, you have KJV. So? Well, you are in error once again. Ex 20:11 doesn't say "create". It says "made". But you don't know the difference, it seems. Even though I've explained it over and over. In the Hebrew, bara and asah are different words with different meanings. There is no "newer doctrine". There is the literal Hebrew, written about 1400 BC. Is that far enough back for you? At least you admit WHY Jeremiah quoted from Gen 1:2. He KNEW what was coming and he was warning the people of TOTAL DISASTER to the land. Thank you for your (finally) honesty. That is EXACTLY WHY Jeremiah quoted from Gen 1:2 in Jer 4:23. The totally nutty thing is that you actually believe that when God created the earth in stages, the first stage looked EXACTLY like a total disaster. I know for a FACT that God creates fully finished things by simply speaking them into existence. He doesn't need or use "stages". Humans do, of course.

Yes, I have heard of dark energy and dark matter. There may be a connection. I am absolutely sure that there has been a great conflict between God and Satan following his rebellion and recruiting 1/3 of the angelic creation. It is clear from Job that Satan attacks creation/creatures over and over. Paul clearly wrote about that in Romans 8. In Job, God set Satan up by challenging him through Job. Satan claimed Job was obedient only because God bribed (blessed) him so much. So God "let him at Job", twice. Both times, Job's reaction was NOT what Satan claimed would happen. No doubt the entire angelic creation were spectators to the events. I'm fascinated by 1 Peter 1:10-12 10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

Nope. The Bible gets to define itself, not the Dutch, not the KJV not any dictionary. The Bible. And, the Bible clearly shows what "tohu wabohu" means in Jer 4 and Isa 34. This isn't even debatable. Both Jeremiah and Isaiah used "tohu wabohu" to describe GREAT destruction of the land. Why would Jeremiah quote from Gen 1:2, if that verse was describing the creation of earth, when he was warning of what was coming? Since the 2 Hebrew words occur together only 3 times total, and Gen 1:2 doesn't give details, we HAVE TO go to the other 2 occurrences, that DO have detail and context, to understand what the words mean. Creation = construction. Beseiging army = destruction. The same 2 words can't be used in both contexts.

RV_Wizard, Since you believe that objects in our 3 dimensional world can be "formless", which means having NO form, even though a source you quoted from defines 'shape' as 2 dimensional and 'form' as 3 dimensional, please explain how many dimensions the earth had at creation, since you accept the KJV and other translations of "God created the heavens and earth and the earth was formless". 2 dimensions, like a drawing of a shape? Or 1 dimension, but that doesn't exist either. If 2 dimensions, would Gen 1:2 be describing something like a "drawing board" where God began His creation by putting everything on paper, much like a blueprint, or plans? Please clarify.

What is the significance of any of this? Adam wrote nothing. Moses wrote Genesis about 1400 BC. Jeremiah was written about 600 BC and Isaiah was written about 700 BC. Both Jer and Isa used "tohu wabohu" to describe GREAT DESTRUCTION on the land. btw, not that it matters, but why add 17 to 40? Correction. Adam was NOT there when God created earth, or when God restored earth. He was put on earth after God restored earth. And no doubt told Adam what He had done. Another correction. Truth isn't determined by "stories handed down through the generations". As a matter of fact, stories generally get "modified", "embellished", etc "down through the generations". That is quite naive if you really believe what you claim. How naive. Moses was inspired (God breathed) by the Holy Spirit. Doesn't matter a bit what others thought about "stories handed down through the generations". ANOTHER correction. That is how the translators of the OT rendered "tohu" in the Koine Greek. So it's not my word. Talk about a "complete lack of understanding". You really take the cake. v.2 introduces the NEED for restoration, because "tohu wabohu" DESCRIBES great destruction of the land, in the ONLY other 2 verses where they are found together. Is that FACT something too difficult to wrap your mind around? Again, you simply don't know what you are talking about. Not surprising since you continue to insist that "formless" is possible for solid objects, even though you have no examples that would support your dogma. That's NOT the definition of form. Why don't you believe the source YOU provided? Another corrrection. The source YOU provided differentiated between shape and form. And you are, equating them. <snore> Well, I at least learned that you believe in ghosts. But I'm not surprised. You seem to believe many things that aren't real; like 'formless'. lol Yeah, sure. Believe what you want. Every time you post, you shoot yourself in the foot. How many pounds have you gained from all that lead?

Seems you can't handle the truth. Face the truth. We KNOW what "tohu wabohu" describes from Jer 4 and Isa 34. Yet, you ignore how Jer and Isa used "tohu wabohu" and claim the 2 words were used for CREATION in Gen 1:2. Preposterous!! What I like is the truth. Trying to defend what you believe by a vote is ridiculous. I've already shown how that has worked out. 1 John 5:19 and Rev 12:9 tell the whole story. And "formless" doesn't exist, except in your mind. The source YOU quoted about 2 and 3 dimensions PROVED you wrong. God created a 3 dimensional universe. Yet you continue to argue for objects that are formless. How does that work in a 3 dimensional world? You can't give even ONE example of an object that has no form. That isn't rational. Oh, just HOW they are used throughout the Bible. But that's not enough for you, even though you have NO evidence at all for your young earth dogma, oh, and "democracy". "more translations agree with me than with you" kind of argumentation. No one should believe me. Everyone should believe the Bible and how words are used throughout Scripture. I'm just pointing out how words ARE used elsewhere. I hope everyone who reads this thread will do their own homework and see for themselves how "tohu wabohu" are used elsewhere. They will find the truth for themselves, unless they also worship at the altar of young earth dogma. Actually, it can and DOES. Do you live under a rock or something? Maybe a cave? You need to get out more. In fact, the Bible REFUTES your opinion here. Rom 1:19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. btw, this definitely includes YOU. You are without excuse for your nonsense belief in formlessness in a 3 dimensional world, and how "tohu wabohu" is used in the Bible. Not talking about liquids/gas. We're talking about the earth, a planet. Why you insist that God's creation of the earth was done in baby steps is beyond reason. God is more than able to create the entire universe complete and finished, in one breath. He had no reason to create in baby steps. But the restoration is different. He was doing that for man. The 7th day is significant for man. This isn't difficult to understand. Please point out what words I am not comprehending. I doubt your sincerity. Why don't you get the book that has been shown in a previous post? Your opinions are simply delusional. The real question here is how you seem to know so much about what people in the church thought 100's of years ago. Or "57 centuries" ago. What a hoot. You don't know what you are talking about. Heresy is against what the Bible says. The Bible says nothing about earth age. But you've made it into a dogma, at which altar you worship. However, the Bible does tell us that after creation (v.1) the earth became a wasteland (v.2), which you have chosen to reject, in favor of your dogma. Please don't. Your opinions are boring and fact-less. Just like formless is fact-less. I guess one can convince anyone of fact-less ideas. There you go with your "doctrine by democracy" nonsense again. You sure like to stretch things, huh. "everyone but me", huh? No, I've shown commentaries that have indicated that the earth is much older than Adam. That's certainly many more people. I'm sure you never bothered to read the sources that I already gave, so here they are again. Regarding the Hebrew words "tohu wabohu" “The analogous use, therefore, of this rare and peculiar phraseology in the verse before us may imply, according to the first sense of the term, that the world at its creation had neither received its proper shape nor was fit to be tenanted; and accordingly it is rendered in the Septuagint version 'invisible and unfurnished.' Or it may signify, according to the second acceptation in which the words are used, that the world, which had formerly been a scene of material beauty and order, was by some great convulsion plunged into a state of chaos or widespread disorder and desolation. Hence, some eminent critics, who take this view, render the clause thus: 'But (or afterward) the earth became waste and desolate.' This translation is declared by Kurtz to be inadmissible, as being contrary to the rules of grammatical construction; but Dr. McCaul has shown that the verb haayªtaah 'was,' is, in some twenty places, in this chapter, used as equivalent to 'became,' and that elsewhere it has the same signification without a following Lª - (preposition) (Isa 64:5,9). That the earth was not originally desolate seems also to be implied in Isa 45:18 “ (Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, 1997, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc.) Regarding v.2 V.2b “Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters” Specific reference to the Holy Spirit “moved” to brood literally. Birds are said to “brood over their eggs”. When warmth from the mother’s body incubates the egg, out comes a baby. “Our English version does not give the meaning correctly, because this word does not convey the idea of progressive motion, but that of brooding over-cherishing the set of incubation which a fowl performs when hatching its eggs; and the participial form of the verb implies a continuance of this action.” (from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, 1997, 2 Which is what you keep doing. You need to stop it. You have no excuse for your dogma. You mean, like what you keep doing. There were no "evidences", only claims that were not proven. You are free to believe whatever you want. I will stick with what the Bible says. I let the Bible define itself, unlike what you do. Because Genesis 1 gives no details of what "tohu wabohu" means, I go to the only other 2 passages that have "tohu wabohu" and I LEARNED that they are used to describe GREAT DESTRUCTION of land. Hmm. OK. So that's how Moses used them in Gen 1:2. That's how words are understood. By seeing how they are used elsewhere. Here again are the words translated from "tohu" in all 10 verses where it occurs: chaos, desolation, futile, waste place (3), confusion, formless (2). But Jer 4:23 cannot be ‘formless’ since it describes the total destruction of land by a besieging army that destroys nations (from context). So should be 4 x for “wasteland/place”. None of these words can be applied to original perfect creation of the earth. ALL of these translations describe very negative conditions.

This is the synopsis from Langford's book: Here is the synopsis of the book: What has been called the “Gap Theory” was a popular and consistent explanation of the first chapter of Genesis among fundamental, evangelical Christians up through the mid 1900s. With the rise of Young Earth Creationism, the gap theory was simply pushed to the background and ridiculed as a past effort to satisfy the claims of modern evolutionary science. In effect, the new teachers buried this doctrine with the debris of Noah’s flood deposits. However, we shall see in this study that the YEC effectively left the literal Biblical record of Genesis 1 and leaped into the realm of pseudo-science to claim that Noah’s flood deposited all the various sedimentary strata of the whole earth. In addition, they pontifically assert that the whole heavens and earth are only about 6000 years old. This study is going to prove that the YEC are the very ones who do not take the Scriptures literally. This study will prove conclusively that Moses did not make the blunder of either stating or inferring the earth is only 6000 years old. There is an abundance of biblical evidences that the Gap is not a theory, but a fact! In this study you will find that certain of the prophets and an apostle were inspired of God to look back in time, even to the “backside of earth’s history,” We shall be surprised to find that the past is as captivating as the future. In fact, as we better understand the past, we shall better comprehend the future.   The cover picture is from two pages of the Jewish Sarajevo Haggadah, as seen in the Saravejou museum in Spain. This work was done in 1400 CE. The pictures on each page are to be read in the Hebrew manner from right to left. The pictures graphically depict the six-day activity of God in preparing the earth of man’s habitation. Two things are to be noted: first, these six days are preceded by a scene of the earth in a chaotic condition as described in the second verse of Genesis 1 (first fame, upper right hand corner); second, on the first day light was made and nothing else ( third verse of Genesis 1, second frame). Obviously, this six hundred year old work was not influenced by modern scientific theories, rather it represents a long standing interpretation in Judaism. Amen!!

What I think is really strange is your thinking that there was any translation 57 centuries ago. In FACT, Moses didn't write Genesis UNTIL about 1450-1400 BC. So from then until now isn't even close to 57 centuries. You need to get your facts straight before you post such irrelevant and erroneous stuff. The closest translation to what Moses wrote would be the Septuagint, written about 300 BC. And they translated "tohu" in Gen 1:2 as "unsightly". Is that how you want to go with original creation?? I give God MUCH MORE credit than you do, for sure. God's creations are all very good. And beautiful. Hardly "unsightly". So, you just can't get around the FACTS. The closest translation to what Moses wrote doesn't fit original creation. And the contradiction that the KJV creates with Idsa 45:18 is stunning, and you just seem to wave it off as meaningless. Since you still believe objects can be "formless", please cite at least one example of any object that doesn't have 3 dimensions. That would put the debate to an end. Can you do it?

Oh, my goodness!!!! What a statement, from one who so vehemently rejects "full context" where "tohu wabohu" occur in texts that warn of coming GREAT destruction on the land. Wow. Are you hyper-hypocritical, or WHAT?! I've proven from Jer 4 and Isa 34 what "tohu wabohu" describe, and you simply ignore the "full context" and hold to the unreal idea that the earth was created 'formless'.