Feedmysheep

Do you think going to heaven will be the solving of all our problems? Do you think the resurrection of our dead physical body will solve all our problems? More importanly, will it solve all of God's problems? Suppose I have never been transformed out of my bad temper, my lack of forgiveness, or self pity? Suppose I die with a unconfessed sin of adultery. Or even I die with a lingering prejudice against people of a different skin color such that I never liked to pray with them or eat with them? Do you think going to heaven will solve all those problems in my soul? We believers need to see that transformation into the image of Christ is our only salvation. And that from glory to glory by the indwelling Spirit. And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit. (2 Cor. 3:17,18) Christianity has been drugged too much with the thought of heaven going. Rather than going to a happy place salvation concists of being transformed to be like Christ our life. Paul and his co-workers struggle not just to make sure everybody can go to heaven but that we would be "full-grown" in Christ. Am I right? Birth must be followed by growth unto maturity. Whom we announce, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom that we may present every man full-grown in Christ; For which also I labor, struggling according to His operation which operates in me in power. (Col. 1:28,29) Christ is planted into us that He may grow and spread into all of our being. You know He is the hope of glory within. To whom God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory,(Col. 1:27) It is time we graduated from the hope of heaven going to the hope of becomming mingled with God for the building of New Jerusalem the corporate expression of the mingling of divinity and humanity. Paul says when Christ our life is manifested we are to be manifested with Him in the glorious expression of divinized humanity. If therefore you were raised together with Christ, seek the things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth. For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory. (Col. 3:1-4) The birth of this new race of God-men occured at the resurrection of Christ when He was the firstborn from the dead. To this Firstborn Son our destiny is all to be comformed to Him. This is deeper than going to heaven in the typical religious sense. And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers; (Rom. 8:28,29)

<<<Because before Christ's ascension, all saved people went to Hades,>>> I agree. The saved went . . . <<<to the compartment called "Paradise", and all unsaved people also went to Hades, to a compartment called or described as "torments". Jesus referred to Paradise as "Abraham's bosom" in Luke 16. >>> I agree again, I wrote about this previously in one of my threads. <<<When Christ died, He went to Hades and preached to the spirits in prison. 1 Pet 3:19 - in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison.>>> That is one traditional speculation. And I think there is a better interpretation. Christ died and proclaimed His victory over the evil angels who tried to ruin human beings during the days before the ark and the flood. For Christ also has suffered once for sins, the Righteous on behalf of the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God, on the one hand being put to death in the flesh, but on the other, made alive in the Spirit; In which also He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, Who had formerly disobeyed when the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared; entering into which, a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through by water. (1 Pet. 3:18-20) Christ went and proclaimed the victory over their plot to pollute the human race and destroy God's plans. In Genesis 6:1-4 we are told of evil angels "sons of God" who produced the Nephilim to corrupt the human race. These perticularly dangerous spirits were singled out for greater confinement in the prisons of the abyss. When Christ was in Hades He announce to them His victory over their plots. I think that is a better interpretation of Him speaking to the spirits in prison who were disobedient during the days of the ark's preparation. <<<The Bible also describes Jesus as taking believers to heaven after His resurrection. Eph 4:8 - This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.” 9 - (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?>>> That too is imo inferior speculation. Ephesians 4:8-12 says that those Christ led as captives He then gave to be gifts to men for the building up of the church. (Now this, “He ascended,” what is it except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth? (v.9) He who descended, He is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens that He might fill all things.) (v. 10) And He Himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers, (v. 11) For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ, (v.12) Your speculation means that Christ led Christians out of Hades, to Heaven, and then sent them back down to the earth to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, and shepherd and teachers to build up the church. <<<Where else do you think some or all dead saints are, other than heaven?>>> Still in Paradise. If the dead saints of the OT are in Heaven then surely David should be anong them. Yet we are told that David did not ascend into heaven. For David did not ascend into the heavens, (Acts 2:34a) But the living Apostle Paul and His companions did say that they led as a train of captive former foes by Christ in His triumphal procession. But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in the Christ and manifests the savor of the knowledge of Him through us in every place. (2 Cor. 2:14) <<<Don't forget 2 Cor 5:6 - Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 8 - We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. >>> Those in Paradise are away from the body but relatively more with the Lord. For ity is God's Paradise. Our body is in the material realm; the Lord is in the spiritual realm. In this sense we are abroad from the Lord when we are at home in our body. The saints who are unclothed from their body in Paradise under the earth are in this sense more with the Lord. The deceased saints are awaiting resurrection while in Paradise. But they are comfortable even as Samuel said he was at rest in Sheol in 1 Sam. 28:15. And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up? And Lazarus is comfortable in Abraham's Bosom in which there is a gulf between himself and the suffering condemned. Abraham is with him too. And Abraham can speak across the unbridgable chasm to the condemns rich man. <<<This couldn't any more clear about where the dead in Christ are right now.>>> You've just been shown an interpretation which I think is clearer based upon the Scriptures. <<<I'm curious about your answer to where some or all of the dead in Christ are, if not in heaven. And please include Scripture that says what you say.>>> They are in Paradise awaiting resurrection. There they are relatively speaking more with the Lord. David said as a saint even if he should go to Sheol God would be there with His love and care. If I make my bed in Sheol, there You are.(Psalm 139:8b) To be fair, the same Psalm says that if he went to heaven God would be there. But he has not ascended to heaven. (Acts 2:34) And he awaits the resurrection with all the other "sleeping" saints there.

<<<(Btw, you don't have to ask me for civil discussion, it's a given. 🙂)>>> Great. <<<Written from John's pov, so I can see that he was referring to those he considered brothers... 'Brothers' is an oft used moniker for those who are "in-Christ" together.>>> So they are human being "brothers". Okay. Since my question was who in chapter 12 might they refer to, I gather you find them to be no one in the chapter specifically but just some of John's brothers in Christ. Let's see if you get any more specific. <<<He further describes them as ones who have overcome Satan, and preferred death over their own lives for the sake of their testimony. >>> Did they give their lives before or during the 1,260 days that Satan ruthlessly persecutes "the rest of her seed" in And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. (v.17) and in -And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days. ? (v.6) <<<I simply see that it is making reference to those who are willing to die for their life in Christ.>>> When? They died for their testimony before the time and times and half a time or during? And to the woman there were given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time from the face of the serpent.(v.14)

<<<I'd love nothing more than to engage in a civil discussion of this;>>> You were not speaking to me. But civil discussion is my desire also. Now I would like you please to civily explain, who do the plural pronouns "they, their, them" and "brothers" refer to in Revelation 12:10,11? Thanks. [Bear with the colors please] And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death.

On the day of Christ's resurrection the only begotten Son of God became the Firstborn Son of God among many brothers. His many brothers (regenerated former friends) are the church. That is a corporate expression of God the Father in the Son. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers, Saying, “I will declare Your name to My brothers; in the midst of the church I will sing hymns of praise to You.” (Heb. 2:10-12) From the divine viewpoint transcending time, God put His divine life into us before were even born with the natural life. Do not jeer. Don't recoil in skepticism. Isn't it also true that the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world? The time element sometimes has to be transcendid to see things through the eyes of our Father. . . . book of life of the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13:8b) But with precious blood, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot, the blood of Christ; Who was foreknown before the foundation of the world but has been manifested in the last of times for your sake, (1 Pet. 1;19,20) Similarly, we became brothers to the Firstborn Son of God when He regenerated us through His resurrection.

When were we born again Christian brothers and sisters? Yes it is not wrong to say "Well, when I was age _____ a number of years ago, I was born again." That's may be true from our point of view as being in time. From another trancendent viewpoint, from the viewpoint of the Triune God, we were all regenerated at the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Pet. 1:3) We who have eternal life were "born" - RE-GENE-erated through the resurrection of Christ from the dead. If you are able to receive it, receive. John brings this out in his gospel. Jesus only referred to the disciples as brothers and children of His Father the day He was resurrected. In this sense we believers were really born again before we were born. From the eternal viewpoint transcending time, we all were born again at and through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

To continue about the Gospel of John more that the synoptics revealing Christ's resurrection was also His birth as the Firstborn Son of God: In the Gospel of John specifically, Jesus did not refer to His disciples as "brothers" until He had been resurrected. Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God. (John 20:17) Before this moment, in John, the most intimate term the Lord used for His disciples was "friends." You are My friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all the things which I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. (John 15:14,15) But, praise the Lord, after His resurrection He called them "brothers." For it was through His resurrection that they received the life of God to be regenerated. First Peter 1:3 shows that redeemed people are regenerated through the resurrection of Christ from the dead. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,(1 Pet. 1:3) The evangalist John wants to bring this out by recording that the resurrected Jesus declared that henceforth the former "friends" now owned His Father as thier Father. . . . go to My brothers and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God. (John 20:17) Through His resurrection they were regenerated with the divine life by the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. This revelation is particular to the Gospel of John. It is also indicated in John 12:24. Christ was the one grain of wheat that fell into the ground to die and grew up to produce "much fruit" the mass production of the grain that would not abide alone. More on this below.

<<< You called 1 Cor 15:23 a "general statement". That seems to be an excuse to not take it straight up literally. Well, the verse is a straight up statement about resurrection. There is no room for finding ways to "get around" it.>>> There is nothing to "get around." There are more verses to include in the larger picture. To add more details to the larger picture we see (some of us) the resurrection of some who died, to the throne in heaven causing Satan to be driven down to the earth for good. And it clearly is at the beginning of the 3.5 year great tribulation. Not only do some of see that clear sign. But we also see the accompanying promises that the overcomers who watch or lived in the past watching - will enjoy an early rapture - which is also stragetic rapture. I understand your desire to view those passages as incorrect conjecture because for you 1 Cor. 15:23 is the last word on all matters of rapture and/or resurrection. <<<ALL dead saved people are in heaven NOW. And none of them have been resurrected yet.>>> This is the most popular belief. Show us the most persuasive two or three verses in the Bible that clearly indicate the dead saved are unclothed and naked souls in Heaven. We'll see if there is any assuming conjecturing going on with you. Perish the thought! Why do you believe that right now all the dead in Christ are in Heaven?

When the disciples asked Jesus WHERE are these taken ones taken, Jesus mentions birds of prey or vultures being where the corpse or body is. (Luke 17:36,37; comp. Matt. 24:27,28) Taken in context of Matt. 24:15 and 21 imply that at the end of this age Antichrist will be the cause of the great tribulation. It is Antichrist who is most in need of judgment and to be destroyed. All people in Adam are dead ( 1 Cor. 15:22a). For just as in Adam all die, . . . The culmination of deadness in Adam climaxes in the Antichrist. And Antichrist the evil lawless man of death will war against the Lord Jesus Christ at Armageddon (Rev. 19:17-21). In the eyes of Christ "the life" Antichrist is a stinking corpse. Antichrist is the rotten climax of death in Adam. Antichrist is good for nothing except the vultures' appetite. Furthermore in the Bible both the Lord and His trusting believers are likened to an eagle. Exo. 19:4 - You have seen what I did to the Egyptians and how I bore you on eagles’ wings and brought you to Myself. Deut. 32:11 - As the eagle rouses his nest, / Hovers over his young, / Spreads his wings, takes them, / And bears them up upon his pinions; Isa. 40:31 - Yet those who wait on Jehovah will renew their strength; / They will mount up with wings like eagles; / They will run and will not become weary; / They will walk and will not faint. And swift destroying armies are likened to flying eagles. Deut. 28:49 -Jehovah will bring against you a nation from far away, from the end of the earth, like the eagle that swoops down, a nation whose tongue you will not understand, Hosea 8:1 - A trumpet to your lips! / Like an eagle he comes against the house of Jehovah, / Because they have trespassed My covenant / And have transgressed against My law. I believe the vultures of Matthew 24 and Luke 17 are preditory birds of the eagle kind. They refer to Christ and His overcomers which will come as a swift, flying army to war against Antichrist and his armies. Swiftly then, Christ will and His army will execute judgment upon Antichrist at Armageddom. I will add a bit more latter.

<<<Remember what occurs WHEN the saints from heaven who will be accompanying Christ back to earth; wedding supper.>>> So here you admit that some saints are there in heaven. But you say there is no rapture. I think you taught that dead saints are in heaven. This makes God more the God of death than the God of life. The evidence of the Bible is that God does not want and we also SHOULD not want to appear in heaven unclothed, naked, without a transfigured body. That discussion is in Second Corinthians. So you admit saints in heaven ready to come down with Christ. But I say they GOT THERE by what we call Rapture, that is guessing, conjecture,. "Where's the verses ??" They are staring you right in the face. <<< The only logical placement of the Bema is AFTER the defeat at Armageddon and the wedding supper. >>> No it is not. But I used to believe something like that for a long time. Eventually I changed. The Bema judgment seat of Christ must be in the air for all the saints BEFORE the reward of accompanying Christ down to this victory is the reward to the overcoming ones. So, I would teach that the judgment seat of Christ takes place BEFORE the bridal army accompanies Christ down from the cloud pavillion to tread the winepress of God's wrath at Armageddon. <<< Believers will be evaluated for "whatever they have done while in their bodies, whether GOOD or BAD" per 2 Cor 5:10.>>> Yes. And that evaluation will occur BEFORE He grants the reward to come down from the pavillion cloud to defeat Antichrist. The mighty ones who accompany Christ down from the sky are rewarded saints. Compare Joel's prophecy and John's vision: (Joel 3:11-13) Hurry and come, / All you surrounding nations, / And be gathered. / There cause Your mighty ones to descend, O Jehovah! JLet the nations rouse themselves and come up / To the valley of Jehoshaphat. / For there I will sit to judge / All the surrounding nations. Send forth the sickle, / For the harvest is ripe; / Come, tread, / For the winepress is full; / The wine vats overflow, / For their evil is great. (Rev. 19:14-16) And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; and He will shepherd them with an iron rod; and He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. And He has on His garment and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. <<<So abiding in Christ prepares the believer for reward at the Bema.>>> I'm glad that we agree on that. Above I have tried to show you it is REWARDED ones as "mighty ones" or His victoruious bridal army which comes down to the Holy Land in Israel. It is very practical. Joel mentions the geographic location to which Christ and His mighty ones descend. Now, Rapture in Luke 17:36,37 indicates that the ones taken (overcoming watchful ones) are taken to the place where birds of prey descend upon the carcus of one slain. When the disciples ask Jesus about where these raptured ones are taken it is to Armageddon. He bypasses saying they are taken to heaven because that is a temporary station on their way down with Him as His bridal army. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left. And they answered and said to Him, Where, Lord? And He said to them, Where the body is, there also will the vultures be gathered together. (Luke 17:36,37) Surely, no dead corpses are in heaven. Christ must be referring to the one who is so DEAD in every sense -spiritually and actually. Matt. 24:27,28 - For just as the lightning comes forth from the east and shines to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Wherever the corpse is, there will the vultures be gathered together. The overcoming watching ones are taken before the great spectacular supernatural calamity. That is they are raptured in a secretive removal before the great tribulatoin. Then after 3.5 years they come down to be with Christ near the earth. There with the whole church raptured at the end of the GT, the selected mighty ones descend with magnificient splendour to Armageddon. So the decision is made before He descends. More will be explained below. <<<Rewards have nothing to do with resurrection. 1 Cor 15:23 is very clear; all believers will be resurrected at the same event: "when He comes".>>> Reward will be issued at the Bema.

When verses are shown to you it is as if you have eyes to see but cannot see. And your way of finding some problem with every other sentence I write reveals more to me a will power resistance to seeing. There is such a thing as accurate "speculation" and true "conjecture" and inference to the best explanation. If John says He saw a Lamb standing, you probably have no problem undertstanding that that means the Redeemer, the slain and resurrected Christ. If John says he saw 144,000 singing saints whose voice came out of heaven and they are before the Lamb, the elders, and the four living creatures, now that is guessing, speculation, conjecture. I don't buy that. The sign is clear. Saved people who followed the Lamb find themselves standing before Jesus Christ in Heaven. If John says he saw a great multitude in heaven you say that they were raptured is speculatin, conjecture, guessing. I don't buy that. The face value meaning is that a great multitude found themselves taken to heaven. So I think your skepticism is selective. There must be some a priori commitment to some strongly held belief that influences a prejudicial view that any other evidence of it is guess work - Ie. "But where's the verses? You haven't shown me the verses." I guess you're just not ready to see the verses yet. Or maybe if you believe them you'll think there is some assumption that you'll have to change your mind about.

<<<I do not see your accersions in the bible. >>> I think you'd have to be specific. The verses in Colossians are quite plain. <<<Jesus was a different man from any other Jewish man or from any of the people of God in the Sinai Covenant. >>> On the other hand of this mystery, how do you feel about the verses saying He was like us? Since therefore the children have shared in blood and flesh, He also Himself in like manner partook of the same, . . . (Heb. 2:14a) For we do not have a High Priest who cannot be touched with the feeling of our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all respects like us, yet without sin. (Heb. 4:18) <<<To begin with he was calling himself the Son of Man. >>> How would you regard His desire that "the Son of Man" not "abide alone" ? And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit. (John 12:23,24)

Few places in the Bible allow complacency about being come upon suddenly by the Lord Jesus. Perhaps there are no places in the New or Old Testament either, that give a false confidence that this miracle has only to do with where our body is. The natural tendency is to assume it is the non-believer only who needs to watch. The more I read the less I see being "rapture ready" is guaranteed simply on the basis of being forgiven of past sins. Look again at the tone saying "YOUR Lord comes." Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. (Matt. 24:42) Then the Lord, the Christian's Lord is allegorized as the servant's master - a master of his household. Who then is the faithful and prudent slave, whom the master has set over his household to give them food at the proper time? Blessed is that slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. (Matt. 24:45,46) Also the Lord speaks here not of a bosterious announcement of His intention to steal something precious. But our unawareness of the time of His coming must be supplemented with vigilance for its sudden event. But know this, that if the householder had known in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming. (vs.44,43) Who among us believers can afford to miss this tone? Who among us can say "Oh, this is speaking to someone else and surely not us Christians." ? When some see the word "Selective" in Selective Rapture they must realize this is beyond solely a WHEN issue. I mean it involves a moral selectivity and not just a timing matter.

A common misconception about the rapture is that irregardless of when it occurs, our Christian walk will have no effect upon it. This is risky. This is presumptious. This is not God's style, so to speak. I called this thread Selective Rapture to bring out the tone and spirit of too many passages on the matter. I would say regardless of your pre, post, mid timing, the New Testament hardly gives us any room to think this rapture is SO authomatic that we need not watch spiritually for our abiding in Christ to be taken by Him. At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left. Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes. What Christian can assume to think this? "Oh, that watching is for someone ELSE? That warning to watch is for the other guy, not me." Not Christian brother or sister. That is a presumption that I think the NT does not allow us - that someone else besides the Christian is being warned. Unfortuantely, some dear brothers think to point out this tone is go back to the law or justification by works. It is not. Others are seem to miss the warning because they believe God's hands are tied to HAVE to take the whole church universal before the great tribulation, Others on the opposite view miss the warning because they believe God's hands are tied to have to rapture the whole church universal at the end of the great tribulation. I am convinced none of these assumptions erase the repetative tone to watch, to abide in Christ, to be in the habit of remaining in the influence of His presence. "Remember Lot's wife" says the Lord. She was removed from the place of judgment. Yet she didn't fare so well. She became a monument of salt which isn't just embaressing. Selective Rapture means we believers need to take seriously the need deeper than our physical body. Concerning rapture we need to heed the exhortation involving our heart.

Readers a question or two to stimulate more participation. Which Gospel brings out the most that Christ's resurrection was the BIRTH of a new humanity? i would say the Gospel of John perhaps the most clearly intends to communicate this matter of Christ's new birth was in resurrection. For starters I submit John 16:21, A woman, when she gives birth, has sorrow because her hour has come; but when she brings forth the little child, she no longer remembers the affliction because of the joy that a man has been born into the world. (John 16:21) The question is was this merely a miscellaneous idle analogy? I think something quite deeper lies beneath this simple word picture. Christ's resurrection was the BIRTH of a particular special kind of MAN into the world. Not only this, but John, perhaps more than the synoptic gospels, intends to show the brothers came into existence only because of the resurrection of Christ the Elder Brother - the Firstborn to whom the many must be redeemed / regenerated / transformed / conformed / glorified thoroughly from their center to their circumference. We'll explore this claim in the next few posts about the Gospel of John.