Indentured Servant

It's not so much that I "believe" it, but I do accept it because the Bible literally says it. I don't explain away scripture that doesn't fit a particular narrative. Asserting that it means something completely different than what it says is no different than the serpent asking Eve, "did God really say that?" And no, the number "144,000" is not in the Old testament, but the identity of those 144,000 are mentioned in Isaiah, and in least two or three other Prophets. Interesting that your response opened with a personal comment about MY belief and not the Scripture. You also inserted a personal jab that I would have to "invent" something to explain what Scripture plainly states. Quite passive-aggressive, and typically indicates that a person perceives weakness in their own argument and feels a need to immediately discredit the other person first in order to maintain their sense of superiority. Let's keep this focused on scripture, not on belittling one another. Please and thank you.

There has been a trend for decades to perceive biblical numbers as merely symbolic. I recall hearing such statements as far back as the late eighties. Then we had theologians and teachers tell us that numbers have some mystical significance, and that trained us to focus on the "numerology" of scripture rather than seeing numbers for what they are....

Even symbolic numbers have literal application. 12= ...sons of Israel ...disciples of Jesus 7= ...Spirits of God ...Messenger to 7 churches 40= ...years in wilderness (Israel) ...days in wilderness (Jesus) Do we question the literal reference to the symbolic numbers here? Of course not, and we should not question any part of scripture that uses symbolic numbers or language. Symbols don't require that we disregard what they refer to... If 144,000 people are specifically identified, there is no precedent that allows us to consider this purely symbolic and not a literal number for the specific group of people it mentions; If Scripture repeats "1000 years," expect that this is literal; If Scripture uses a symbolic number to mention a period of time, a number of people, or any other thing or event, you can expect, that BECAUSE the symbolic number has a meaning, its application in scripture is literal.

I agree. That date corresponds with Tishri 1, which, in 3 BC, was Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year. Tradition says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were all born on that day. It makes sense that the Jewish Messiah would be born on that specific day, as well.

We must also keep in mind that the food regulations in Leviticus were intended for the "sons of Israel and strangers who live among them." These were not rules for anyone outside the pure bloodline of Israel. It was specific to God's chosen people. We, as gentiles, and living in modern times, are not under the same dietary laws.

I've noted at least 40 verses in the OT that reflect Revelation 17-19. (Some individual verses in Revelation have five or six parallels quotes in the OT. That's a lot of information to expand on, and I'm only halfway through the research. If you read through the various prophets, especially from Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Zechariah, Hosea, you will find the same descriptions of Babylon that are found in Revelation. Some are very specific, and almost verbatim. 1. Israel is, by God's own accusation, a prostitute, and the various cities are called her sisters/daughters, also accused of prostitution against God. 2. God promised to punish Israel, as a whole, (destroy her), for her sin. In the interim, He divorced her, (this is when House of Israel was exiled). 3. He warned the House of Judah the same would happen, but they sinned worse that the Northern Kingdom, and were included in the 'divorce.' 4. God's promise was to return to his wife after punishing her, but not to the entire population of Israel. He will take select members of each of the twelve tribes and return to His wife, and marry her through that remnant. This is also spoken of as taking one from a city, two from another, until He has the number He wants. (Remember, cities are sisters or daughters) When we understand the relationship between God and Israel in the Old Testament, we will better understand Revelation. Revelation is the fulfillment of OT prophesies about Israel.

My apologies for making that comment under your topic... It was certainly not aimed at you. I found myself in a discussion that strayed a tad off topic. Please forgive my poor judgement. I rather enjoy the sincerity in your questions and comments.

Agreed!

Yes, I agree. I too respond when something is said that is misleading or one-sided, hoping that the "audience" isn't occupied by those as easily swayed. I think some people feel it necessary to create a bait topic for the sole purpose of exercising their 'superiority' over others.

There are some, (no one in particular), who believe this means nothing! They believe it a non-event, since their narrative asserts the entire planet will be totally obliterated upon the return of Christ, and that nothing can logically happen after the destruction of the planet, regardless of what Scripture says to the contrary. It's the same mindset that you find in discussions on Flat Earth, snake worship, sabbath keepers, and Jehovah's Witnesses... Circular reasoning based solely on a hyperfocus of one out-of-context passage of Scripture. It's all they see, and they base their entire narrative on that one interpretation. There are no scriptures that they will allow to contradict their mindset, and they will ignore any questions you ask that may lead them to biblical truth.

I agree, but there are factions that believe this won't happen.

Isaiah 2:4 "He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." This is one of many passages of scripture that reference the earthly rule of Christ. According to those who oppose scripture that refers to the Christ's reign on earth, all other scriptures highlighting Christ's earthly reign are heretical. They teach that the entire planet will be destroyed and that Christ will not rule for the amount of time specifically repeated six times in scripture. Some people would have you believe the entire Bible is history and that all prophecies were fulfilled in 70 a.d. God has a promise to fulfill to Israel. Anti-millenialism denies God the opportunity to accomplish that promise. Most in the anti-Reign camp believe that there is a secret mathematical formula that dictates that 1000 years is really just one day... ("...a 1000 years is like a day...") This is the basis of their claim that the world will end at Christ's return, and that Christ will not fulfill prophetic promises to Israel.

Yes, yes, yes .. I keep reading that. But, it did NOT answer the question I posed to you. It answers a question, but just not the one I asked. It simply was unrelated to what I was asking of you, completely. Perhaps I'll reword my question to fit your answer.... Replacement question: "Hey, can you repeat that, ya know, what you wrote earlier, just maybe change it up a little for me, I'm only in the fourth grade." Perfect! Now I see the validity of your answer! Spot on, man. Hey, I guess now I can't say my question wasn't answered. You have indeed provided a thorough, and understandable answer and I thank you. Buhbye...

Nope, not at all. You say you answered, but all you did was respond with something I didn't ask for. Your responses are public and everyone can see that you did not answer my question as I asked it. You haven't even attempted to answer the question I posed. You repeatedly sidestepped answering the question, as asked. You are trying to protect the one thing that you know I can use to upend your faulty interpretation of scripture. You obviously fear giving a direct answer to a very specific question. Maintaining your narrative is not the same as answering a question... It's merely repeating yourself without anyone being able to figure out why you are so confused about biblical prophecy. What is your PERSONAL definition of the heavens and of the earth? I haven't asked for scripture that supports your narrative, I'm asking for YOU to answer a simple question. If you don't know, say so; but please stop acting as if you are the controller of all information. If you don't like being asked questions, don't post ideas that are contrary to God's written plan for the end times.

Hello? Please help me to understand your position... Do you have an idea of what is meant by "heavens" and "earth?" I think your misunderstanding of the end times may be based on your idea of what these two terms mean. Heavens = ? Earth = ?

You didn't, and that's not what I asked.

That's not an answer to the question I asked. I'm sincerely trying to communicate with you, but you are being very defensive and unwilling to talk. What is "heaven," and what is "earth" in YOUR understanding? That's all I've asked. If you can't, or are unwilling to discuss this, then we don't have to.

My "claim" comes from Scripture. I'm sorry you have no need for scripture that disagrees with your narrative. In your understanding, please define: 1. "heavens" 2."earth"

It purifies the land. Scripture does speak of this with the analogy of a silversmith refining silver to remove the impurities. Yes, the fire will also kill many, but scripture speaks of survivors, even entire nations with functional governments, after the great Day of the Lord. Some overly zealous students of Scripture mistakenly believe that the entire planet will be destroyed, but that contradicts with numerous scripture that depicts life after the tribulation and God's wrath. The notion that God will remove everyone before this is the real fairy tale.

What's simple is that I just don't feel the need to defend Scripture against you. God's Word is still God's word without your sense of superiority over it's meaning.

Why would I waste my time showing you anything in scripture that you've made up your mind to deny and debate? Don't feel bad that I didn't answer your request, you ignored mine, as well. Respond to my inquiries with something other than sarcasm and I will gladly teach you scripture as you requested.

If you knew scripture, you wouldn't have to ask me to walk you through it. I highly doubt you'll be willing to have a reasonable discussion... Your response doesn't have a sincere tone and I think you just want to argue, and seemed posed to do just that. If you want to dispute against scripture, perhaps you can find someone who does not value the Word of God and doesn't mind dragging it through your personal interpretation. Btw, I don't have "beliefs..." I read scripture. It's simple and doesn't require someone to assert their interpretations.

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived! So then, it would seem that your warning against being deceived is merely warning people that the scripture doesn't mean what it says... Why should they only be found in Revelation 20? The Prophets speak of the earthly, physical kingdom of the Messiah with descriptions of cleaning up the land surrounding the temple (after His fiery entrance ), and of delegates from other nations coming to the temple annually to honor the King. There is also mention of the Earthly Messiah-King settling disputes for other nations, and enacting a law that prohibits warfare and weaponry. Much is said about animals during this earthly, physical rule... That predatory animals and their prey will live in peace; that children can reach for a snake and not get bitten; that birds will gorge themselves on the flesh of God's enemies after He has razed the land with fire. This verse isn't the proof-text you're seeking to validate the non-existence of a thousand year period that is specifically stated in scripture. This verse, in its context, is a reminder not to be impatient because God views time differently than we experience it... Otherwise, we can use it to "prove" creation took seven thousand years, etc. it's not a mathematical key that defines days and years.

So many follow pre-determined theological positions, and they end up forcing scripture to fit their narrative.

...and yet reading it, many cannot see what it says.