Knowledge Wrestler

Hi Mr M, I believe I am addressing the issue of "Hearing the Gospel and, then what" I've read your other threads and I believe you have what it takes to participate in a slightly more academic discussion, though I will try to avoid using citations and footnotes.

Abram came out of serving the world (left his father's house) and wasn't saved. He suffered at the hands of King Abhimelek and Pharoah. The Israelites came out of serving the world (came out of Egypt) and were not saved. They suffered hunger and thirst in the wilderness. What is happening here? What did they hear that motivated them to switch loyalty? What did it have to do with the preceding narrative, from Genesis 1:1 onwards? See, we can't separate the Gospel from the existing narrative, it needs to have continuity in order to be coherent. Let's consider this. Gardeners love to see growth, so they set up gardens so that plants, and their flowers, and their fruit appear. Similarly, God loves to see righteousness, and righteousness can't be created: it would be artificial if anyone tried it. If I create a machine that helps the underprivileged by giving out free food, is it manifesting righteousness? No. It's just doing what it's supposed to do. I can't reckon its act as righteous, or praise it for being righteous. It would give free food even to the privileged, which isn't really a righteous, charitable, act. So when God created the world, it was declared good for nurturing righteousness. This is the schema. Adam would be righteous by not eating from the forbidden fruit. He would be able to see God, stand in His presence, climb His Holy Mountain. In turn, he would be able to do things that a person could do that are only possible if God was with that person. In turn, he would be able to subdue the earth. In turn, he would earn rewards that wouldn't rust or perish. … See, God had the set up that can nurture, or facilitate the manifestation or growth, of righteousness. As long as the earth is being subdued, we know that the Righteousness Garden is functioning properly. Now everything comes to a halt when Adam ate from the forbidden fruit. Humanity can no longer stand in God's presence, do things that are possible only if God was with him. So whatever the gospel is, it promises to restore Adam's privileged position. However, Hebrews 11.39 says no one who was faithful ever received what was promised. Now look at this passage: John 3 1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” . .. Please reflect on these posts while I take a break. I welcome constructive criticism, even pointing out the weaknesses, if any immediately visible.

Actually, I don't blame anyone for not understanding Scripture correctly. The problems in understanding are so great that we literally need divine help. That's because the distance with reference to geographical distance and historical time are so great that we lose the special meanings some words had in those contexts. Normally, we can find meanings of words in dictionaries, with different references. Diagnosis means something in medical contexts, and something else in, say, economics. The dictionaries list the different contexts, but sometimes the list is too short. We may not have reference usage for quantum mechanics, for example. We would have to go to vocabulary lists for quantum mechanics in special documents called lexicons. So what do we do for Scripture written in Second Temple Jerusalem where we don't have lexicon from that time? We look for the context in documents written in that time period. Here is an article written by my discussion partner on another website: Quote The Meaning of Faith Perhaps the single greatest issue of theology in the present day is our understanding of “faith”. I will argue here that “loyalty” is the best translation of it and that, as such, it is totally inseparable from works and essentially means the same thing. Outside of the Bible, what is the Greek word for faith (pistis) used to mean? We're in luck... the first century Jewish historian Josephus uses it in his writings. In his autobiography, Jospehus describes a time when he was the leader of a small army, and another group had tried to kill him. Josephus captures the enemy leader and says to him “repent and have faith in me hereafter” (Life 110). What Josephus clearly means by this is “become part of my army, and obey my commands.” Later he speaks of a city that had turned against him, which after he has forced them into submission again, he rebukes them for revolting “from their faith in me” (Life 167). Again, he's speaking of their loyalty to him. What exactly is the quality that Josephus is getting at? Think about his usage of the word in an army and the concept of soldiers following their leader. What is the relationship between a soldier and their commanding officer like? The solider is loyal and trusting, he follows his superiors' commands, when the captain leads the charge into battle the soldier is right there behind him following in his footsteps. The concept is one of “followingness”, obedience to orders, loyalty, faithfulness, allegiance etc. English is really missing a word to describe this quality of a soldier... the quality of “followingness”. From article on theogeek blogspot dot com ... Bottomline, when Jesus says "Believe in Me", He isn't saying "Believe I am your Saviour". It means, "Come out of the world, serving the world. Serve me instead". In the next few posts, I will show coherence, and strong support, for my view.

Joshua was part of Israel. And the text says Israel heard the same gospel we did. So what Israel heard isn't "Jesus is our salvation". See? Incoherent. As for support, Jesus did good works. He healed a blind man. He fed thousands with a few fish. These are His good works. Are we supposed to do these good works? See, your support from Scripture is lacking.

So what did Abraham and Joshua hear, that needed to be obeyed? Which also was the same good news we hear? Heb 4 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. What they heard was definitely not "Jesus is our salvation".

Ok, so your gospel is that Jesus is our salvation. Obedience to the Gospel is do good deeds. See, it isn't coherent. There is no command in your gospel. Therefore, we don't know what we have to be obedient to. Secondly, the same gospel was announced to Abraham, and to the Exodus group. What was the command there? And how did they obey? Gal 3.8, Heb 4.2 After you reply, I will show coherence and support for the alternative view.

You say I have avoided responding to the OP, which states that hearing is not enough, obedience is required. However, you have not clarified What the gospel is. Before I proceed with so clarifying, I would like to say that our views must have a methodology for confirming which is the correct view. Otherwise, it will result in a "He said, she said" situation. Would you agree that the correct view is the one with the most coherence, and the most support?

Rom 1:16 describes the resulting benefit of the Gospel, not what it is. So sad that the central teaching of Christianity is not known, as seen just now. An example of a similar situation is this : My favorite aunt left me her house in her will. That's the good news. My bank can permit the loan I need for my medical procedure to be released, now that I can provide collateral. This is the resulting benefit of the good news. Also I can go to college with the same loan. Another benefit. After College, I can open my accounting office. Another benefit. And so on. So the resulting benefits have replaced the Gospel.

The problem is that no one knows what the gospel is. It's scandalous that we are in a belief system that has lost its central belief.

Thanks for replying. Israel saw suffering, and then rescue, in the wilderness. Would you say that they understood that this was how they would be blessings to the world? That in the Promised Land, YHWH would give them crosses to pick up, so that when He lifted them up from the earth, the world would be drawn to the state of the light of YHWH always being WITH believers in the Promised LAND, and would make them also want to enter? So that they would in turn also become the same lights? Would you say that Abraham and Caleb understood and changed from cross avoiding followers to cross accepting leaders, as shown by passing the test when asked to face danger, one at losing his son, and the second, at facing the Amalekites? That they metanoia-ed, were born again, had had a different spirit? Numbers 14 20So the LORD said, “I have pardoned them according to your word; 21but indeed, as I live, all the earth will be filled with the glory of the LORD. 22“Surely all the men who have seen My glory and My signs which I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness, yet have put Me to the test these ten times and have not listened to My voice, 23shall by no means see the land which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who spurned Me see it. 24“But My servant Caleb, because he has had a different spirit and has followed Me fully, I will bring into the land which he entered, and his descendants shall take possession of it. John 3 1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is WITH him.” 3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Heb 5 28 even though He was THE Son, He still had to learn obedience through suffering.

Hi, what is the disobedience that Israel showed, which is mentioned in Numbers 14:22? Thanks in advance.

Duplicate post. Deleted