artsylady

14 minutes ago, maryjayne said:

 

You have introduced another argument concerning Paul and women, then told others to stick to the argument. You cant have it both ways.

I don't really understand why he started changing the subject, but while he's at it, what about women cutting hair and not talking in the church?  Do these rules apply today?  It is very relevant.

1 minute ago, maryjayne said:

You are now questioning the truth of the whole Bible being the inspired Word of God. Either the words in the bible about homosexuality are from God, regardless of who wrote them, or they are not.

and 

are opposites.

You have introduced another argument concerning Paul and women, then told others to stick to the argument. You cant have it both ways.

Please calm down. No I am not.  Not in any way.   I wish you would stop reading what I am saying in an attempt to criticize it before you can consider if because you are getting what I am saying wrong.  Just take a minute to think before you 'speak'.

  I am reminding you of the fact  that while Jesus did not talk of homosexuality, he did talk of judgementalism, pride and self righteousness and to me.  

Have a good day.  I have work to do.   

1 minute ago, maryjayne said:

another red herring.

Regardless of the causes of homosexuality, in all its forms,this truth remains: sexual acts, outside the God degree arrangement of a married man and woman, is Sin. It is Sin. NO ifs or buts, not caveats. Its straightforward sin.

When Jesus or anyone in the bible spoke of the Last Days, the sins were not changed. There was no provision added for those who have desires outside of male/female marriage. 

The devil pulls a lot of tricks and maybe the manipulation of our ecosystem might just be one of them.  Is that something you can consider?  

Maybe this is what's happening, and of course, God in his wisdom, knew what the future would hold and maybe that's why Jesus never said a word against homosexuality in a day and age where it was rampant?

 I am going to err on the side of being non judgmental, humble, hoping and seeing the best in people, and loving.    

If I get to heaven and I have done nothing but love and accept gay people and told them God loves them, I don't think God is going to reprimand me.  After all, it's not up to me to judge.  I am just supposed to love.  I leave it up to God to judge as he said we are supposed to do.

14 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

Do you know The Spirit of Christ in Paul said this

Eph 5:3-8

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
KJV
 

 

I am not sure why you steered the question about Jesus and the fact that he clearly cautioned against being judgemental, prideful and self righteous and never against being homosexual?  Why did you change the subject?

The spirit of God in Paul also said women shouldn't cut their hair and that they should not speak in church.  Do you believe this to be a rule all Christian women should follow?

18 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

If you are attempting to use that as an excuse for this situation, then where does it end? Do we simply say "hormonal issues" and "corrupted environment" for any other sin while where at it? Are mass shootings, rapes, murder, arson, terrorism and the like all now cases of "hormonal issues" and "corrupted environment"?

Because if you want to use that excuse for one sin, you open they door for it to be used in every case of sin.

Why would you stretch it like this?  I never said anything of the like.   Why don't we just stick to the argument rather than make up pretend ones that I never said?

18 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

If you are attempting to use that as an excuse for this situation, then where does it end? Do we simply say "hormonal issues" and "corrupted environment" for any other sin while where at it? Are mass shootings, rapes, murder, arson, terrorism and the like all now cases of "hormonal issues" and "corrupted environment"?

Because if you want to use that excuse for one sin, you open they door for it to be used in every case of sin.

Google 'study fish gay' and you will see that there are studies showing that due to mankinds 'brilliance', our water has been compromised and there are studies showing fish that now exhibit homosexual tendencies and transgenderism and a particular pesticide can turn male frogs into females.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080216095726.htm
https://news.berkeley.edu/2010/03/01/frogs/

http://naturalsociety.com/studies-chemicals-in-the-water-turning-male-fish-into-females/

Surely you must be aware that the meat and dairy industry use growth hormones and estrogen.  

You might also want to consider the fact that decades long use of the birth control pill has caused damage to the ecosystem.

https://www.livescience.com/20532-birth-control-water-pollution.html

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/birth-control-in-drinking-water-a-fertility-catastrophe-in-the-making

Is it really beyond the power of reasoning to suggest that mankind's manipulations that has clearly caused havok with the eco systems, might also be messing with human physiology>?

I am not trying to give an excuse, but a possible reason - a cause and effect.  There is a difference. 

I always try to cut people slack whenever I can.  I am just like that.  I try to see the best and try to give people the benefit of the doubt.

18 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

Yes and he was probably never a Christian to start with, at least not a truly born again Christian.  He was a cultural Christian and managed to make money in the Christian music realm.  He is in a lot of danger if he does not repent and turn to Christ.

Wow, judge and jury much?

Do you agree that Jesus spoke out against being judgmental, prideful and self righteous more than a few times?  Certainly more than being 'homosexual' (which he never did.)  Why do YOU seem to take issue with it MORE than JESUS did?

22 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

No, they refuse to accept what you say, no questions asked.  They think critically, and ask you hard questions and that bothers you.

Homosexuality is a spiritual problem, not a hormonal problem.

 

All we need to do is point them to Jesus.  

 

The Bible doesn't condone David's polygamy and that polygamy caused him no end of grief.   The Bible nowhere said that God was pleased with David over that and there are many places that God was displeased with David.

But that does not justify the sin of homosexuality, as it is a class of sin that speaks to what God utterly abhors above all other sins, which is why it is to-ayvah (abominable). 

As for God calling him a man after his own heart, it doesn't mean that David was sinless and perfect.   It means that David had heart for God, for God's law and the worship of God.   David was a man with a sincere heart follow after God and he, like the rest of us had his ups and downs and times of victory and personal defeat.   But David's heart was passionate for God.  That is why God called him that.

And YOU know for a fact that environmental issues are not at play in todays world how?  I don't know how you could possibly know such a thing.

Where does it say that David's polygamy cause him 'no end of grief'?  

Seems like God didn't care that David was a polygamist, doesn't it?

I am out of time for today.  I could get caught up all day long but that's not healthy or good.  Besides, there are too many here, not you, who would refuse to rethink etc.

Justin had a happy child - no daddy, mommy issues - no childhood issues.  

Very quickly, you talk about people who turn gay due to an unhappy house or fatherhood or whatever.  MANY also experience unhappy households etc and ARE not gay and are far from it.   You know this. 

Can you give some thought that hormonal issues due to a corrupted and manipulated environment might just be at play here?  

Again, if you're counselling people, please give ample, reasonable thought to the other side.

  I'll go back to the lowest common denominator, here to.  Let's cut to the chase. 

David was "a man after God's own heart", yet a polygamist.  Comments please.  Also, it seemed God was ok with his many wives, just not the one who was married to someone else.  Am I wrong?  

1 hour ago, Billiards Ball said:

Our culture pressures people. When I was a child, it was the norm to think "girls have coodies" when prepubescent. Now young people who dislike the opposite gender are bombarded with "born gay" messages. Likewise, it's the norm for young men to idolize male athletes or role models, especially where Dad is passive.

The deadly combination of same sex abuse and/or a distant parent comes up EVERY time I've counseled gay people in the church and EVERY time I've witnessed to gay persons. If I was counseling Justin Lee, we would discuss his relationship with his dad and his dad's behavior.

Regarding the Law, Christians serve a higher law--the law says no adultery but we are not to even be emotionally involved outside marriage. The law condemns murder but we are to avoid even unrighteous anger. There are 18 Bible passages in both testaments regarding homosexuality. None are positive or laudatory in any way.

If you read the book by Justin Lee, you would see he had a normal upbringing with loving parents.  I thought I had stated that.  Perhaps not. Perhaps you will read the book.  If you are counseling people, it might not be a bad thing to get another perspective.  What do you think about that? 

When Exodus closed down, some of the criticisms of the organization was the fact that no matter what, they tried to bring the reason for being gay back to abuse or early sexual experimentation, which wasn't always the case.  You seem to be doing the same thing.  Are you?

You remain silent on verses about killing witches, mediums, children and the fact that a man after God's own heart, was polygamous!  While clinging to verses that apparently condemn gay behaviour - at a time when we were supposed to go forth and multiply.

What are your thoughts on that? Please, do tell.  How do you explain this to gay people you are counselling?  Do these subject come up?

Eighteen verses against homosexuality? I am afraid you are stretching it somehow.   

Again, remember the word 'man bedder' was changed to 'homosexual' in the 1950s, so you might as well cross that one off.  

16 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

 

16 hours ago, maryjayne said:

they are both sin, equally. Sin is sin. period. Jesus Christ died for all our sins, He made no distinction of grades of sin.

You have introduced yet another straw argument again, i see.

(bolding mine)

PS the child is not sinning. They were being raped.

You miss my point.  

The word changed.   It WAS man bedders (pedophiles) and it was changed by man to 'homosexuals'.  

They should have left it as it was.  Of course the child is not sinning.

17 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Roman 1:18-32  18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,  19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.  20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.  21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.  22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools  23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.  24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.  25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.  26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.  27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.  28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.  29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,  30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;  31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.  32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

If you are going to dismiss sexual moral laws as no longer applicable today then you also have to dismiss all moral laws.  You can't just pick homosexuality out of the bowl and leave the rest in there just because homosexuality is the fashionable sexual sin right now.

The above passage very clearly says homosexuality is a sin.

Sounds like once-Godly people gave over to their sinful nature in every way - idol worship, orgies, wickedness, slander, disobedience, etc, etc, etc.

Would you put Ray Boltz in this category of depraved sinners?  

19 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

I'm sympathetic and not judgmental, however, a secular therapist reported that of 300 gay men he'd counseled, 298 either had same sex abuse or a bad relationship with their father early in life.

Homosexual desire is not a choice, sexual activity is. "I can't help being gay" and "I cannot help being straight" aren't reasons to have sex before marriage.

I am not advocating for premarital sex and I agree with what you state.  

I don't know if you are interested in the book by Justin Lee, but he was one of those Christian kids, raised in normal, functional, loving, 2 parent Christian home and had no abuse, sexual or otherwise.  Kids used to be called the "Bible boy" .  The kid around school who used to have the answers and was well verses.  As a kid, he used to condemn homosexuality vocally, when asked about it.   However, during puberty, things changed.  He started having feelings.  Same kind of feeling a heterosexual boy has towards females at that age.  He tried to fight it, and desperately tried to pray it away, with counselling etc.  I do believe that God ALWAYS wants to heal the spirit of a person who is sincere and wanting that, but it seems that inclination never left Lee.   We have a real problem with gay young people leaving the church and maybe it's not really their fault.   Maybe man in his 'wisdom', has tainted the physical world to the point where it's had a physiological impact on humans?   Is that possible?   

People keep going to certain verses in the old testament (I will address new also) but in the OT, polygamy was something that was obviously condoned.  David, a man after God's own heart, was polygamous, was he not?  Nothing is ever said against it, although it was prominent!  We weren't supposed to eat this and that, or wear cotton/wool blends.  Killing witches and mediums, taking women as the spoils of war, kill certain children.... and yes, not be homosexual... in a time when people were told to go forth and multiply.   But some Christians just hang on to that "don't be homosexual' verse or 2 from that book.

As far as the old testament, I am going with the words that I know that God actually did write down... The 10 Commandments.  Those other laws and rules were situational, and meant to be followed by a certain people during a certain time.  

13 hours ago, Sojourner414 said:

He also never said a thing against crashing a plane full of innocent people into a skyscraper, blowing someone's head off with a shotgun, or using a computer to hack someone's bank account either.

Doesn't make them any less wrong, now does it?

Jesus was clearly anti violent.  Do I need to show you verses?

16 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

It's the Mosaic Law fallacy.  

Dietary laws given to Israel are not lasting moral laws which also apply to the Church.  Jesus re-affirms every moral law, and all 10 commandments except the Sabbath.   I can't believe people still try to use this fallacy in regards to any subject, and they use it for other subjects besides homosexuality, but using it to legitamize homosexuality is an old favorite.  Is a big favorite on atheist websites as well.  If you see something like what you wrote above on an atheist website, it probably isn't something a person should be using to support homosexuality on a Christian forum.

In your viewpoint, old laws to do with food no longer stand, but old laws to do with sexual relations do stand?

15 hours ago, shiloh357 said:

You need to read the Bible and get right idea about homosexuality.   The Bible condemns it.

I go back to hermeneutics.  We are living in a strange time these days.  

Did the Bible ever condemn polygamy?

16 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

Alan Chambers did not shut down Exodus because of success or lack of it.  He, like many others before him, caved into the societal pressure from the crushing juggernaut that is the militant Gay lobby.  In other words, he let himself be bullied into his decision.  It isn't fashionable in the secular world to be opposed to homosexuality, so Chambers changed his mind so he wouldn't get any fallout anymore.  He took the easy way out.  Success or lack of it when it comes to Exodus is immaterial.   The desire may not be able to be completely dealt with, but if it cannot, abstinence is the only Christian option.  God does not legitimize two people of the same sex engaged in an intimate sexual relationship, ever.  He does legitimize it anymore than he would a man and woman involved in an adulterous relationship. 

If you think that homosexuality is now suddenly allowable, perhaps you can share with us what other sexual sins are now allowable as well.  Surely if God changed His mind about homosexuality, He must have changed it about other sexual sin as well . . .

How you claim to know the inner workings of Chambers mind?

We all have gay people in our lives in this day and age.  I found that when I eventually let go of long-held beliefs, after a lot of searching, I was able to look at gay coworkers and friends much differently.  I realized I had been able to let go of judgment and truly love them in the Biblical sense.   I realized that before, there was always a hint of judgment that I could not shake.   There was always something at the back of my mind wanting to preach at them, but afraid I would alienate them.  

16 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

There it is, right on cue.

Mel White came up with the gem above.  It's a stoke of genius, and it is surprisingly effective, if the person reading it doesn't know much about how the Bible is to be interpreted. 

"Jesus never said a thing against being gay?  WOW!  I guess it must be OK!!!"

Not so much.  Taking that statement, we could assume just because Jesus didn't say anything about ______________ it must also be OK.  So lets replace gay with some different words and see if your statement above still works.

Jesus never said a thing against child molesting.

Jesus never said a thing against abortion.

Jesus never said a thing against methamphetamines.

Are any of the above statements credible, at all?  This is why one cannot plead a Biblical position based on silence.  No credible exegete works this way.  First off, the Bible is not silent on homosexuality.  The Bible condemns it, in both the Old and New Testament.  Jesus never mentions homosexuality.  There is a reason for that.  Everywhere Jesus talks about an intimate relationship, He exclusively talks about it in terms of a man, and a woman, in a marriage relationship.  Period.  That is because God recognizes no other valid relationship outside of a man and a woman in a marriage covenant.  What your sentence above is actually saying is that Jesus somehow gives a wink and a nod to behavior God already condemned.  Since Jesus is also God, that is not possible.  Biblically, it is extremely poor logic.  It is also bogus since Paul states very clearly that homosexuality is a sin.  If you also know the gay talking points when it comes to what Paul says on the subject, you can trot those out and I will debunk those as well.

The difference, for one, is that homesexual behaviour was prominent in Jesus day.   

17 hours ago, Cobalt1959 said:

A person is not to arrive at a position on homosexuality  by reading a book written by a secular author.  A Christian's position on homosexuality is supposed to be formed by what the Bible says about homosexuality.   The Bible condemns homosexuality is the strongest of terms.  It was wrong yesterday, it's wrong today and it will still be wrong tomorrow.  If someone wrote a book saying adultery was OK would you suddenly decide adultery was now OK?

Justin Lee is no different than Matthew Vines, Mel White, or Rick Brentlinger.  All of these people are gay, and claim to be Christian, but they have no desire to abstain from their sin.  So they have formulated ways of attempting biblical work-arounds to homosexuality being forbidden.  In fact, you echo one of their favorite devices just within a few more of your posts after the one above.  A device that has been thoroughly debunked many, many times.   These authors have no wish to end their sin.  They want to stay in their sinful lifestyle while claiming to be Christian.  So they write misleading books based around feelings, not scripture, and they actually misrepresent what the Bible says on this issue.    When you take the Bible for exactly what it says every time it talks about homosexuality, there is absolutely no doubt that it is a sin.

Justin Lee uses Biblical references too.  If you haven't read the book, you don't know where he is coming from.

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 8:42 AM, Billiards Ball said:

Homosexual and heterosexual desire are not a choice; homosexual and heterosexual activity are of choice. A person who was abused by same sex abusers as a prepubescent teen may have a much harder time overcoming homosexual desire then someone who had a gay experience by choice in college or high school.

I know several people in the church who have had a gay orientation/desire and are now hopeful for future heterosexual relationships. After counseling, word study and prayer they have had heterosexual desires also.

Sometimes it happens that there is no abuse or sexual relations before puberty, yet the person still ends up very gay, and very conflicted.   

The KJV of homosexuality in the NT used to read 'man bedders' and was changed to 'homosexuality' in the 1950's (I think).    Had it remained as man bedders, it would be wrong for a man to bed a boy (or a temple priest to bed a boy - which was the practice back then)  Instead it refers to two consenting adults.   Which one, to you, seems more like a sin?    

I often wonder about the hormones people are consuming and the hormones that have been going into the water systems since the birth control pill.  Are environmental factors at play in our day and age?  If yes, we should be more sympathetic and less judgmental.

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 9:36 AM, 1sheep said:

Why do YOU have to keep piping in? You have done a fine job at derailing this thread! 

You need to STOP with your personal agenda that has nothing to do with the OP! 

I thought you had more gentleness and compassion now that you have had an "Epiphany" and it transcended you to new heights of love. ( rolling eyes)

What I see is a likened to a bull in a china shop. There is nothing unselfish about your constant rhetoric! You are bullying people . There is zero interest in your product you peddle.

I am going to start reporting you for harrassing others.

This is day 3 ? and yet here you are still talking the same sales pitch. 

 

 

 

 

I 'derailed' it, (is that no allowed) because I typed in 'vegan' into the search engine to see if people were discussing this, as steering clear of consuming animal flesh and their hormonal secretions is becoming less and less popular as people become more informed on the heath issues, and on the treatment of the animals.   My apologies if 'derailing' is not allowed.

I am harassing you?   Wow.  That's really something.  Why don't you call the police and report me?  If you want, send me a private message and I'll give you my address so the police will know where to find me.

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 9:25 AM, maryjayne said:

1) the topic of this thread is the actions of PETA so they are the main subject.

2) its a discussion board, we discuss, we are free to 'pipe in' as and when we wish, providing we stick to the TOS.

3) discussion means discussing both side of the subject and drawing our own conclusions. Its not about you, its about the subject matter.

If you had something new, I could see why you might want to pipe in.  I don't see that as the case, although maybe I missed something.  In that case, I'm sorry.

I am so glad you are enjoying the song as much as I am.  It's on my gym playlist for a reason!   Gets me going! 

He was a true trailblazer.  He brought about a lot of change and was harshly criticized and judged for it.   I think he is my favorite artist.   Really like the song Six O Clock News too.  And Why Don't You Look Into Jesus.   

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 9:36 AM, turtletwo said:

@artsylady I am sorry to hear of this. My condolences. 

I'd not heard this song before. I like it. After reading this, I tried to find a live version for you with decent audio. Not successful, but just thought I'd let ya know that I tried. 

Thank you for trying!   It's surprising since it such a popular song! 

On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2004 at 11:37 AM, George said:

Hello my brothers and sisters in the Lord,

Most people don't realize the radical experiment we are doing here! I want you to imagine yourself -- hundreds of years ago -- when all the different denominations were starting! While everyone was insisting their beliefs were the "only" correct way to worship God -- they were creating more and more splits and divisions!

What we are trying to do at Worthy Boards is unheard of when you think about it! We are trying to unify the body -- while at the same time protect those fundamental truths that we can all agree with -- the need for salvation through Jesus -- the source of truth for living the Christian life found within the Bible. Read our Statement of faith! This experiment hasn't happened before when you really consider it!

Of course, there's the ecumenical movement -- unity for the sake of doctrinal compromises! I'm sorry, but the fundamental doctrines of the faith can't be compromised.

So often though when you have so many different denominations, you have many different avenues of thought that have never been explored by other denominations. Just because a teaching is "different" than one you are used to hearing, doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong -- it may be just different!

But differences of opinion is actually a good thing whether you realize it or not! For God didn't create us to be the SAME body part -- but created us all different so that we could join together to form the body of Christ to compliment each other!

Oftentimes I learn by realizing other avenues of thinking presented by various believers. By allowing various avenues of thoughts we expand our horizons and allow the Spirit of God to realign our thoughts with the mind of Christ and continue our growth in the maturity of the Lord.

So before you run out and cry "heretic" or "false teacher", be sure to carefully listen, and observe what someone is saying. I honestly believe that things "heard through the grapevine" have a way of being twisted -- but if you go to the source then you can carefully examine the fruit -- test the fruit -- and then make a judgment -- often times you may find that the red grape you were expecting to find was just a white grape -- it was just a different color, but when you examined the fruit -- you find out its still good fruit!

We need to recognize that every word spoken, we will be judged for. And everyone that is hindered from hearing the gospel because someone feels the need to scream - heretic, false prophet, or demeaning someone in some fashion -- let's just say I wouldn't want to be that person sitting before the Lord at the Bema Seat!

This is a problem that I do have and I want to voice my concerns now and I hope you carefully heed these words. When someone comes into the boards, who is not necessarily a Christian -- the first thing you should do is NOT castigate them.

The first thing you should do before you even post -- what would Jesus do? Did Jesus say -- get away from me you prostitute? or get away from me you heathen? or say give me the first stone because I am without sin?

Jesus didn't go closing doors, He went forth OPENING the DOOR so ALL could enter in!

This was the Lord's prayer to the Father before He was crucified! That we may all be ONE! My wife and I don't agree on everything -- but when we disagree -- we agree to disagree! Sometimes it's best to say -- I agree to disagree!

Love breaks down walls of division and covers a multitude of sins! So may the Love of God be abundant in your hearts so that the world can be radically changed through you!

May the love of God be shown in all of your posts!

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

George

Great post and very true.   Agree to disagree and do it respectfully!