HILL

You have mentioned your concept of limited will before. On first glance it very much seems to be an attempt to justify your theology when it doesn't match with certain verses. A better explanation of this concept is needed to understand how you are interpreting scripture. I think this is a major area of confusion and disagreement. A clear analysis of this may yield better understanding. God Bless, Kansas Dad. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree could you explain it better for us.

Is it possible that Jesus was using figurative speech to show how powerful belief is? (As a man believes in his heart, so is he.) Faith is powerful because it determines what we are and what we do. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Faith determines how much responsibility God will give you. Like Abraham. When he made the covenant with God. God had him kill animals split them in half and seperate them making a path between the halves. Then the two would walk between the halves together. That was an ancient Chaledean custom. It wasnt something God just made up. That is how they made contracts. We use signatures now. But part of that contract was who ever broke it would die. God made the covenant with Abraham that way because God will bring it down to our level that was the best way for God to show Abraham how serious that was. If Abraham would have broken the covenant with God he would have died. It was because of his faith that God chose him. Faith is the starting point. His faith was backed up by works. Not Abrahams works but the work that God had laid down before him to do.

No there is no flaw in my post. You just dont understand what I am saying. We do have free will. You are tring to justify why you believe a certain way. That has been mans problem for a long time. They make the word fit their beliefs instead of changing themselves to fit the word. Ezekiel 18:24 But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be rembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has commited, because of them he shall die. Do you see that when you turn away from your righteousness, that what you have done will not be rembered? He was righteous and turned away. From God Himself throught the prophet Ezekiel. It is as clear as day. It isnt a free ride and God will help you but He wont do everything for you. Jesus chose Judas. Judas betrayed Him. A man He chose betrayed Him. If you serve God out of pride or jealously you are not serving God you are serving yourself. God will give you over to the desires of your heart. Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; But to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man a measure of faith. Matt.25:14-30 14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man (God) travelling into a far country, who called his own servants (us), and delivered unto them his goods. 15 And unto one he gave five talents, (a measure of faith) to another two (a measure of faith) and to another one;( a measure of faith) to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. Notice that each of them was given talents (faith) according to what they could handle God wont over burden us. 16 Then he that had received five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. He was a doer he did the work of his master not just believed. He increase his faith by works. The works of his master. 17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. He was a doer too. 18 But he that had received one went and digging in the earth, and hid his lord's money. He thought he could just hang around and just hold onto what his master gave him he is a hearer. He had faith but did nothing with it. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reconeth with them. 20 And he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents saying, Lord , thou deliveredst unto me five talents behold I have gained beside them five talents more. Notice what the master says to him. 21 His Lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant, thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things, enter thou into the joy of thy Lord. 22He also that had 2 talents came and said, Lord, thou deliverest unto me two talents, behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. 23 His Lordsaid unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make the ruler over many things, enter thou into the joy of thy Lord. It gets interesting here. 24 Then he that received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee to be a hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast noy strawed. 25 And I was affraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. Look what the master said to this servant who only believed. 26 His Lord answered and said unto him,Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. He should have done something with his faith instead he was to concerned about himself than what his master wanted him to do. 28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. Because he did not do the work of his master his master took away his measure and gave it to another. 29 For unto everyone that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance, but from him that hath not shall be taken even which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitiable servant into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and nashing of teeth. I would hate to go there. Now people say the unprofitable servant never had true faith because people changed what true faith means to justify their beliefs. God guides us by our faith we increase faith by doing what God wants us to do. And if you ignore and be like the unprofitable servant than you will share in his punishment. He had been given a measure of faith from his master but he did noting with it. He still believed and he thought that was enough. This parable screams freewill. And so does Ezekiel 18:24 and many other verses. Gods will always prevails but He will use some one else or use other means. If you turn from Him it is on you God wants us all to serve Him but He wants us to listen to Him and be obedient. Explain how grace is put through the meat grinder in my posts.

What is "true faith"? People keep saying that true faith will always produce good works. Is that true? Does God totally take over and we no longer have free will? I have only found 1 definition of faith in the bible, so I think that it is the definition of true faith. True faith defined Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. I dont see in that verse were it says works is a by product of faith. I do know that Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him for He that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. Wow a revelation, a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. I think people misunderstand us because they think we are saying that works are more important that faith. I see works as a byproduct of love Galations 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision BUT FAITH WHICH WORKETH BY LOVE. Faith which worketh by love not love worketh by faith. Like I have said before faith is the starting point, God guides us by faith it is up to us to listen to God and be His workmen. That is why we are saved by grace through faith, becasue faith is the starting point no one can come to the Father unless they believe in Jesus.But it doesnt end there. If we dont what He says we are the unprofitable servant and we all know what God did to the unprofitable servant. Revelations 3:15-16 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth. They are being judged by their works. They obviously have faith why would Jesus be concerned with nonbelievers being lukewarm they will always be cold unless God grants them repentance. I believe that 2 Thessalonians 3:10 isn't just talking about lazy people and earthly physical labor it is also talking about spirtualy lazy people too. For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. I get a clear picture by what God has revealed to me through scripture that what we do does matter. We choose to work for Him. I believe many people have true faith but they dont seek God for understanding and take men for their word on thier interpretation of the bible and leave it at that. And they think that faith alone is enough. And it is not by works of any man it is the work God has laid down for us to do. If you dont know what that is then read the bible. That is the difference between a hearer and a doer. Doers understand what has to be done hearers only believe. Isaiah 45:19 I have not spoken insecret, In a dark place of the earth I did not say to the seed of Jacob "Seek me in vain" I, the Lord speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

I always liked Billy but recently on a different forum I saw this. I'm not sure what to think about it. http://members.fortunecity.com/omegatimes/...ersecution4.htm

I dont set days for a fast. I go till I have an answer. I think that is what God wants is us to truly seek Him. I seek God in spirit and truth and ask God for His Spirit and truth. I dont throw away what others say God has reveled to them I consider it. Just because it goes against what I believe doesnt mean they are wrong. I use to believe like you. God was revealing to me then but it went against what I was taught by men so I threw it away. I take what they say to the Lord like I said before I also look to disprove what is revealed to me. To make sure it is of God. Dont take this as me tring to sound more righteous than anyone I'm not. There comes a time when we got to seek God and Him only. Put everything else aside. This could be my last chance, I go back to Iraq soon. Do you believe we are in the end times? Then now is that time.

I guess you better close this one too before someone learns the truth.

I'm done. I dont enjoy arguing. God bless you all

No it is not a revelation that I have but the truth it is a plain as day but everyone wants to hold to what their religious creeds say and not what the word of God says. Because a person went to school and is ordained doesnt make them right. How often do you look in the bible to disprove what you believe. I do it all the time to make sure it is of God. I dont take anyones word for it. I seek for myself. You shouldnt take my word for it you should seek for your self. I trust God more than a man.

If you can deny Jesus by your works, it sounds like works play a much larger role than you want to believe

Seek God and Him alone and you will understand. I came to these understandings by fasting reading my bible and prayer. It wasnt until I started to go to forums that I realized How few people actually understand the whole message in the bible. There comes a time when you have to put everything aside and seek out God and learn from Him not other men.

Again, no one is saying that we should be disobedient to Jesus. That is not the issue. Perhaps you need to read the thread. You are not even addressing the issue under discussion. We are not debating whether or not we should obey Jesus, and perform works of righteousness as commanded. We all agree that obedience is part of being a Christian. The question raised by this thread is whether or not our works determine whether or not we are granted eternal life. My contention is that works to do not contriute to salvation but are the outworking, or demonstration of my faith. My works show that I am saved. Please try to stay on topic. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What I have posted here is exactly what he is talking about. But if you dont do what He said to do. If we deny Jesus He will deny us. We can deny jesus by words or deeds. Our works are essential. Im sorry you dont understand.

We are not disputing that salvation is from Jesus. But if you dont do what He said to do. If we deny Jesus He will deny us. We can deny jesus by words or deeds. God does not make us do good. God will put us in the position to do them, the rest is up to you. We do good because we love Jesus because He told us to but He is not going to make us do good. He wants us to be doers and not just hearers. My dad says he doesnt do certain things because God hasn't liad it on his heart to do them. Why does God need to lay something on ones heart when Jesus said to do it? We have it in writing. That is why we have the bible. God guides us by our faith, We still have a duty to listen to Him. It is not a free ride. You dont just believe and that is it. We need to be doers.

They speak the truth. Stop leaning on mans understanding and seek God for His. Not by reading books, not in this forum, but in your prayer closet you and God. It wasnt untill I did that, that God opened my eyes.

How is man justified? Paul tells us in his letter to the Romans... Chapter 3 21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

1 Chorinthians 13:13 AND NOW ABIDE FAITH, HOPE, LOVE, THESE THREE, BUT THE GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE. This is my conclusion. Faith without works cannot be called faith. Faith without works is dead and a dead faith is worse than no faith at all. Faith must work, it must produce, it must bevisible. Verbal faith is not enough, You can deny Jesus by your works, if you deny Jesus he will deny you before the Father. Love is the greatest of all even greater than faith. Ezekiel 18:24 But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? ALL THE RIGHTEOUSNESS which he has done SHALL NOT BE REMBERED BECAUSE OF HIS UNFAITHFULNESS OF WHICH HE IS GUILTY AND THE SIN WICH HE HAS COMMITTED, BECAUSE OF THEM HE SHALL DIE

Righteousness came by way of faith. Works followed by way of righteousness. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But faith is justified by works. Together Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith is made perfect? You see that then that a man is justified by works and not faith only. I guess that is why Martin Luther wanted the book of James removed from the bible. He taught faith only.

James 2:20-26 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the alatar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith is made perfect? And the Scripture was fullfilled which says "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness" and he was called a friend of God You see that then that a man is justified by works and not faith only. Like wise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body with out the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Suzzane, what he has denied is the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice by claiming that we are not saved by Christ alone. He is saying that works are essential to salvation and that is unbiblical, and does great violence to the Word of God. No one is saying that works are not necessary, but they are a demonstration of faith, and are not slavific. If we have to have works to be saved, then salvation is not a gift. To deny the full sufficiency of Christ's work on the cross by claiming that works must be added to it, , is simply false doctrine. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You are misunderstanding what he is saying. He is proclaiming the working power of His Grace that can only be displayed in our works, that we/he is not boasting of ourselves, but of Christ Jesus in us, unless we deny that power and thereby do not do the works that are necessary. In His Love, Suzanne <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Amen Suzanne!

I see the truth in Fishers posts. But that is just my oppinion

James 3:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. 1 Chorinthians 13:13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three, BUT THE GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE. Faith by itself is not enough.

It wasnt just WMD he was also killing, torturing, and raping his own people. What would you do if you were president? Sit back do nothing, let them hit us again atleast now the fight is taken to them. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hit us again? Saddam and Iraq never hit us a first time. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Radical isalamic terrorists that is who I was referring to. Saddam was a menice that needed to be taken out sooner or later. Does anyone support Israel here?Saddam was giving money to the families of the suicide bombers. Most radicals consider Israel and America the same. Right now alot, not all, but alot are focused on Americans in Iraq. It is considered an insult that Americans, christians, are in islamic land. If that is what it takes to minimize terroist attacks in America and all over the world then I will glady die. John 15:13Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.

Why hasn't the US intervened in Nigeria where killing, torturing and raping is running rampant? No oil that's why <{POST_SNAPBACK}> HOW CAN WE WHEN OUR MILITARY IS SPREAD TO THIN AS IT IS. IM GETTING READY TO GO BACK TO IRAQ FOR MY 2ND TIME MANY ARE ON THEIR 3RD TIME.