AgnosticFront84

PLEASE READ: I just want to clear a few things up. First of all, I am not here to belittle, mock, or offend Christians. I do not hate nor despise born-again Christians. My parents are born-agains and I love them very much I do realize I am on your turf and my goal isn't to be as offensive as possible and live up to the stereotype of a non-believer. I study different religions but mainly focus on Christianity because I know it best and was the religion of choice in the location where I grew up. I am very open-minded and even open-minded to the fact that I may again be a born-again Christian. (highly highly doubtful, but, who knows?) If I offend anyone I'm deeply sorry and please accept my apologies. Before running straight to the Mods (it's already happened my first day here) please PM me and let me know you were offended and I'm sure I'll apologize. I may come across a little sarcastic at times, but it's just my nature, I've always been that way. I hope this clears things up a little

No. But my biological father didn't create my mind or soul, apparently that was God. He (my biological father) also doesn't know my fate because he isn't omniscient.

Beautiful story, I've heard it many times. Unfortunately, as a non-christian my life is about the same as it was when I was a christian. Good and bad things happen just as often as when I was saved. It's amazing how the mind works, if you want to associate a situation with anything, you can do it in your head. God answered my prayer, praise God. God didn't answer my prayer, oh well, it conveniently wasn't in his will. Besides my theory on why God would be evil, please take a look at the Old Testament and mainly the Book of Job to see where I'm coming from. By the way, I'm only using my theory from a Biblical standpoint, not personal experiences. Personal experiences don't mean anything considering you just think and believe it's God. I'm not saying your personal experience wasn't real to YOU, I'm just saying it plays no part in an answer to my theory. So if you want to dabble in my guesswork and ignorance, please feel free to use the bible to back yourself up

This was you right, you basically said that quoting the Bible to you is usless, so now your wanting Ovedya to supply you with scriptures to prove his point??? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Quoting the bible to me in an attempt to witness is useless, yes. My theory was "in terms of christianity", so of course you may use the bible as reference. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. You gotta understand, it's like 30 christians vs. 1 heathen here, a little overwhelming at times

Interesting view and thank you for being the only person to attempt to answer my question. Hats off to you I promise to stay on topic and my belief or non-belief in God and the bible as the inerrant word of God is a non-issue at this point in time. Do you have any scripture to back up what you just said? The only question I have to your post is that I can't imagine that God just sits there and says "oh! look, this guy named Joe was just created...cool!" To me, this would be taking power away from God. But all in all, great answer to my question. Can you please just back up what you said with some scripture? Thanks

First of all, I can say with pride that I am very open-minded and am accepting to all different views. I'm not even asking for empirical evidence here, even a quote from the bible will do. What assumptions? As far as I know, everything I included in my theory are facts stated in the bible (correct me if god is not omniscient and we don't have free-will). I'm sorry you feel sad for me. If you feel sad because I've been unchained from the intolerable, simple-minded, narrow views of christianity, then cry me a river. If you can break away from the christian propaganda that anyone who questions your religion is full of "pride and rebellion", then maybe you can see that I am just asking a question. But, alas, being sad for each other doesn't answer my question... it's ok, though

Instead of letting me know that I'm a heathen, can you please just answer my question? How does my theory not prove God is evil? I just want an answer, not verses telling me that I am of the darkness. Pretend that I'm a christian asking the question. Just pretend. I promise you I am not satan in the form of AgnosticFront84 trying to test your faith. I just want an answer

For the 6th time, if God knows EVERYTHING, then he KNOWS where your soul will end up no matter how many different times you sway to the lamb's book and away. He KNOWS where you will end up even if they are YOUR OWN choices. That is why I believe that God is evil. He will create souls knowing the future of their fate is eternal damnation. I am still waiting for an enlightening response to my theory....

I also believe we are all interconnected. To say that god creates doomed souls to help bring others to salvation only supports my theory that god is evil. What if I am one of those doomed souls created to help others to salvation? How much love do you think I'm feeling from God now? I am nothing but a pawn in his game.

LOL. Good point

People, please read my post two or three times before responding. You are missing the point, Dave. I stated that the problem is with God CREATING people/souls KNOWING where they will end up because of THEIR OWN CHOICES. Good for you, Dave. Although this has absolutely nothing to do with my original post, good on ya.

Right now with Jesus? I am nowhere. I am an ex-christian with questions that could never be answered. Please read my post to find out my history with christianity: http://www.worthyboards.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=24055 And please, no witnessing to me, been there, done that, bought the T-shirt. Quoting the bible to me as a witnessing tool is like me quoting from a book of Wicca to you.

If God isn't, then who is? A christian's microcosm consists of god (the trinity if your demonination is into that sort of thing), satan, angels, demons, and humans. If I left anything out left me know...So, my question to you is, if it isn't god, then who is it? Mother nature? Father time?

If you don't know what "evil" is, then maybe you shouldn't jump into this... www.dictionary.com says: "Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction"

My fault, my theory is that God is evil and knows your eternal afterlife before he creates you. Bob was a christian. As I was. But, he denounced Jesus as his personal savior or whatever you wanna call it. He was then doomed to hell for rejecting christianity before his life ended. My fault again, I was a bit vague. That is exactly my point. If he KNOWS who will or not receive him before he creates them, why create souls that will spend eternity in hellfire? I'm not saying that when people choose the wrong door it makes God evil. I'm saying the fact that God is constantly creating souls he KNOWS will end up in hell makes him evil. It's kinda like watching a movie you've already seen...you want the ending to be different, but you know it was made that way and it cannot be changed. The decisions by the characters in the movie cannot be controlled by you, but you already know what choices they will make. Such as God cannot control your choices but knows what choices you'll make because he is omniscient. I hope I'm making myself clear here.

Here is a theory set up like a logic proof in regards to free will and God's omniscience. Please feel free to criticize or explain how it would be false. This is all in terms of christianity and the bible. Given: God is omnipotent God is omniscient We have free-will Agree? OK, good. Here goes: God is omniscient (all-knowing), meaning there is absolutely nothing he does not know past, present, and future. As humans on this earth, we have the ability to make the choices we want that will either lead us into heaven or hell. To reject Jesus Christ as God's son and our Lord and Savior will result in a trip to hell. When God wants to create a new soul (let's call him Bob), he knows what choices Bob will make before he makes them. Realize Bob is still making the choices because of his free-will and God is just watching knowing what he'll decide. God always knew what Bob will decide all the way until he dies and knows wether he'll end up in heaven or hell. Let's say Bob is a christian and like your average christian goes through many phases of his relationship to his faith such as being saved, backsliding, re-dedicating his life to christ, backsliding, losing faith in christianity, re-dedicating his life (you know what I'm talkin about ). Unfortunately, when Bob dies he made the wrong choice and ends up in hell. Bob, near the end of his life permanently rejected God and Jesus Christ as his personal savior. Now, God KNEW that Bob would end up in hell for eternity before he even created him. To say that God didn't know would be taking knowledge from God making his omniscient status a falsehood. So, God MUST have known what choices Bob would make and where he would end up. To me, this makes God an evil God. Why would he have created a soul knowing it would inevitably be in an eternal fiery furnace. So full of love to create a being he KNEW would end up in the pyrotechnic playground. Why?

AF, what was it that made you change your mind about God? You mentioned that your were Pentecostal for a number of years, but you then changed. How so? Thanks, t. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A brief summary of my spiritual life. Here goes.... I was raised in an Assemblies of God church in upstate NY since I was born. My parents are devout born-again Christians and have forced

I do, but will a 10-year-old? My point was that it could be offensive to a young person who will read and most likely comprehend that for what it says.

Where did you get that bible quote from? The translations I have are this: 30 These things will be done to you because you have whored after the nations, and because you are defiled with their idols. (MKJV) 30 have brought this upon you, because you lusted after the nations and defiled yourself with their idols. (NIV) 30I will do these things unto thee, because thou hast gone a whoring after the heathen, and because thou art polluted with their idols.(KJV) 30'These things will be done to you because you have played the harlot with the nations, because you have defiled yourself with their idols. (NASB) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My apologies: Ezekiel 23:20

Oh, is that the reason? Not my personal reason, but OK. I am assuming you are focusing on the negative points in the bible and not scripture excerpts such as John 3:16. Negative points including spending eternity in the pyrotechnic playground. It also insults my intelligence to the use the brain that "God" gave me. To believe everything in the bible (including talking burning bushes, talking serpents, and living in the stomach of a fish for 3 days) would require me to put all common sense and logic on a shelf. As for the bible not being offensive, do you really want your kid reading filth such as (edit) [Ezekiel 23:30] God. Which god? The biblegod? OK. So you mean to tell me that because the Hindu Vedas state that Shiva and Ganesh are real gods, they are? Going in stream with your logic, this would also mean Zeus and all the Greek gods were real too. Just because they were put on paper doesn't make it true. Hence, the bible doesn't make a point that BibleGod factually exists. A reasoned and intelligent basis? How so? Of course it is a blind trust, and how can it be proved by history (Josephus documents, which has also been stated as fake), archeology (what, the shroud of turin??), and logic (logically we as humans don't want to believe that all our good doing on earth amounts to nothing after we die)? I somewhat agree with you. But, would you consider your heart hard just because you don't embrace the Book of Mormon, the Q'uran, or the Tipitaka? I agree with you here

Pound the pulpit a bit more, will ya? I bet non-christians will be flocking to your feet to hear the "good news" with those aggressive witnessing tactics of yours...

Justin, I am a non-believer and I wanted to commend you on your stance to christian witnessing/question answering. I have asked many christians many questions about the bible and have received the same, regurgitated responses they were indoctrined from their years of church services. Responses from the bible as accurate, empirical evidence to substantiate your "belief" doesn't mean anything to me. Ie., a question is posed....answer: "Cuz jesus said so in the bible." "Unicorns exist, cuz I say so." That means absolutely nothing. Why quote something as truth when it is all held in BELIEF? Would I quote the Q'uran or the Hindu Vedas to prove my point of belief to a christian? Absolutely not. You are on the right road, my friend. I hope to sometime soon engage in civil discourse with you -Joe