AgnosticFront84

There simply is no doubt that a man named Jesus once lived on the earth. There is far too much evidence of Jesus having lived on the earth to dispute it.

I know I told you I wanted to bow out of this discussion but this statement brought a few questions to mind. Why is there no doubt that Jesus lived on the earth? Excluding the Bible, there is only one secular (more non-Christian) account of Jesus' existence annotated by a historian from these times. I'm sure you know him as Josephus Flavius (37-100 A.D.) the Jewish historian. Of the large volumes of Jewish history and ongoing wars he wrote about, he only mentioned Jesus ("of Nazerath") twice in Antiquities. To me, this is kind of strange. Of all the historical information he wrote about in his years, he mentions Jesus, a man claiming to be the son of God, defiling his religion, excecuted - ressurrected, a man of miracles....only twice?? Here is what he has to say about him:

(Antiquities 18)

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.

(Antiquities 20)

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others.

These two excerpts of Jesus' mention are the only (to my knowledge, please prove me wrong) from a non-Christian historian from the 1st century. The problem with even these excerpts is they have been proven to be forgeries. Discovered byEusebius (scroll down to: Olson, "Eusebius and the Testimonium Flavianum"), who was known for forging documents in favor of Christianity. The preceeding excerpts from Antiquities do not correlate with the writing styles of Josephus and are spoken in Christian terminology.

Did Jesus exist? Absolutely. Which one are you talking about though? Jesus ben Phiabi, Jesus ben Sec, Jesus ben Damneus, Jesus ben Sirach, or Jesus ben Pandira just to name a few from the supposed Jesus of Nazareth era.

Not debating, discussing I would really enjoy seeing a few examples of "far too much evidence of Jesus having lived on the earth to dispute it."

But if you care to know, Hinduism deals with Sins and Salvation through Reincarnation. There is no afterlife for them, but their past digressions count against them when it comes to being reincarnated.

Just to jump in and provide a little correction in that statement, Hindus believe you are every living being on this planet and the last being you are reincarnated into is human. Even as human you are reincarnated 9 times as human. The trick is you never know if it's the 9th time before you are judged to spend eternity in their version of hell or nirvana. Ok, that's all, continue on

I have decided to no longer post here at Worthy Boards. My reason is because I am still searching for answers and most of you here believe what you believe with full confidence. I am pretty shaky in my spiritual life now teetering from this to that in a kind of chaotic confusion. I want to sincerely apologize for my offensive posts and thank those who have taken time to try to answer the many questions I may have. This conclusion did not come from any one poster here but from a change of heart in my self that was long needed. I need to give up all the resentment towards christians and christianity in general. I want to read the Bible again (it's been about ten years) and start going to church both with an open heart and mind. I honestly want to give this another chance and it will take a long time before I have reached my decision through much prayer and seeking for God. Once again, I won't be posting here again until I make a decision to give my heart to the Lord which is a HUGE HUGE step for me. Please understand this. I need clarity in my spiritual life and going back to the Bible might be that way. I have spent the last few years indulging myself into atheist literature and essays which have made logical sense but left me spiritually empty. Thank you once again, all of you for your help

I will respond to any comments to this post.

Ovedya, I want to end the soapbox debate since I have no energy to debate something I am internally battling at the moment.

I just wanted to say that I'm a non-christian but grew up Pentecostal. I remember reading religious tracts in church by a flaming fundy named Jack Chick telling me how Catholics were in the wrong. Well my grandmother was Roman Catholic and it was very offensive to me. I feel for you, man. I'm sorry you have to be persecuted by protestants. Here is an example of what I'm talking about...

Actually, I found the exact tract I was reading years ago. Be prepared, ol Jack can be quite offensive...

Why is Mary crying?

First of all, what's up! Long time, no talk I finally got my internet back and ready for this discussion. Ok, back to the topic at hand...

The following article is taken from chapter five of a book titled, "The Normal Christian Faith" by a man named Watchman Nee.  Please consider and comment when you have the time:

SECTION TWO

CHRIST AND CHRISTIANITY

CHAPTER FIVE

CHRIST VERSUS DOCTRINES

Our Christian faith is based upon the revelation of God. It is different from all other religions which are attained through meditation, conjecture, and searching. We believe that the Bible is God's revelation to us. In other words, it is His spoken word to us. We also believe that God has become a man, who is the very Jesus of Nazareth. God, the Bible, and Jesus Christ constitute the basis of our faith.

THE POSITION OF CHRIST

Let us begin by looking at the position that Christ occupies in our faith, or we may say, in Christianity. However, Christianity has been altered and is not what it ought to be. At the present we will not mention what Christianity ought to be. Rather, we will only draw a comparison between Christianity and other religions in order to see the distinctiveness of our faith. We will not try purposely to exalt Christianity and debase other religions. We will only draw an objective comparison between them.

First, let us consider Confucianism. Actually, followers of Confucius never formally assert that theirs is a religion. Confucianism merely exercises great influence on Chinese culture, education, ethics, and philosophy. One thing, however, is certain: the teachings and doctrines of Confucius are of foremost importance, while the person Confucius is not as crucial. I do not mean that Confucianism has no concern for Confucius. The man indeed was an extraordinary person. However, in order to be a part of Confucianism, one only needs to understand the doctrines of Confucius, abide by his teachings, and be thoroughly acquainted with his books. It does not matter whether one understands the man Confucius or not. The principles, doctrines, and teachings of Confucius are the essence of the religion.

THE DOCTRINES OF BUDDHISM

Next let us consider Buddhism. The founder of Buddhism was Sakya Muni. Once he preached to his disciples about evil persons being reincarnated through the Wheel of Rebirth after death. This is something that attracts man's attention. But in all of Buddhism, the point of emphasis is doctrines and theories. Concerning the man Sakya Muni, although he has a history and biography, they are something parenthetical. They do not form the crux of Buddhism. The center of the religion is not the man Sakya Muni. Whether there was such a person is unimportant to today's Buddhism. All that is needed are the doctrines and teachings.

I fully understand the concept the author is trying to display here. All other religions focus on the doctrines and teachings but not the founder of the religion. Christianity, on the other hand, focuses on the life of Christ, him being self-proclaimed man-god, and people knowing they must accept him as God.

FOUNDERS ONLY LEFT THEIR DOCTRINES

Other religions such as Taoism and Mohammedanism are all of the same principle. After each founder set up a religion and left his teachings, doctrines, and regulations as the content of his religion, the founder himself was disassociated from the religion and had little to do with it.

Ditto my last comment.

CHRISTIANITY BUILT ON CHRIST

But our faith is entirely different. From its outset, Christianity is built on the man Christ. It is not built on the doctrines and teachings of Christ. It is amazing that when you open the Bible, you will not find too many chapters of doctrines. Passages where pure doctrinal issues are expounded are rare and of less concern to people. What concerns one the most is the man Himself and what kind of person He is. All who have read the Bible know that the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth are not outstandingly voluminous. His person draws our attention. He alone is the foundation of our faith.

True that That's factual information about your religion and I agree with this. Not built on the teachings, but the teachings are obviously adhered to.

The word Christ came from Greek, meaning the Anointed One. According to the Chinese, when a man takes up a task, he is given a letter of employment. The Jewish equivalent of this is anointing. When God summons a person for a work, He pours oil on the person as a seal of commission. Christ is the very God who was set apart to come to earth to be a man for the manifestation of God, in order that man may know God. Christ is the Anointed One. He is commissioned to such a task.

Hmm...In the eyes of Christians this may be true, but to say the latter section of this is fact is wrong. It is belief. The author is obviously speaking in terms of Christianity because he is making statements as if they were empirical fact and not faith. "Christ IS the Anointed One... Christ IS the very God..."

CHRIST DEMANDS OTHERS

TO BELIEVE IN HIM

Due to this basic distinction, Christ is different from the founders of other religions. Once He asked His disciples, "Who do you say that I am?" Over and over again He demanded that His disciples believe in Him. He said that he who believes in the Son has eternal life. Again He said, "He who loves father or mother above Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter above Me is not worthy of Me" (Matt. 10:37). Unless a man loves in this way, he is not worthy to be His disciple. Words such as these have been uttered only by Him. No other religious leader ever said anything like that. Confucius never said to Yen-weh or Tze-lu, "Believe in me," nor did he ever say, "Love me." Neither did any of the other leaders, such as Sakya Muni or Mohammed, demand of their disciples faith in them. All it takes to be their disciples is to believe in their doctrines.

Ovedya, I'm very glad you happened to include these words said by Jesus. This was a major problem I've always had with Jesus' teachings. There is no way I would ever love an invisible, supposed man-god who died 2000 years ago over my tangible parents or other family members. With all his might and power and glory and whatever, this Jesus can't even respond when called out to. Scream as loud as you can, Easter bunny, can you hear me!!?? You will receive the same response when you substitute the name Jesus Christ. It hurt me as a child when my father (who is a fundamentalist born-again) uttered these words to me, admitting he loves Jesus more than me. Sorry, don't mean to get all personal, but this is my opinion on this topic. Anyway, onward...

THE ISSUE BEING WHO JESUS IS

Hence, the true Christian faith is based on a person. It is built on Christ and not on some doctrines. The crux of the true Christian faith is a question of who Jesus is! Is He merely a Jew? Is He only a prophet? Or is Jesus the Son of the living God? The whole matter hinges upon who Jesus of Nazareth is. The difference between a genuine Christian and a false one lies not in the knowledge of the doctrines of Christ. Rather, it lies in the knowledge of who Jesus is!

Nothing new here, next...

THE ANSWER IS IN THE BIBLE

Who is this man from Nazareth? Since this is a crucial question related to our basic faith, we have to find the answer in the Bible. We will pay more attention to the Gospel of John and discover that only Christ Himself is the center of the Bible and the focus of the whole of Christianity.

Before taking up the Gospel of John, we have to take a look at the background of the book. Prior to the coming of Christ, a forerunner was sent by God to prepare a way for Christ that men might be ready to acknowledge Christ. The forerunner was John the Baptist. Because of his powerful preaching, many people were convicted. As a result, many thought that he was the Christ who was supposed to come.

But John 1:8 says, "He was not the light, but came that he might testify concerning the light." The light means Christ. He is called the light because light reveals and manifests. John was not the Christ. He was only bearing witness to Christ.

Concerning this light, verse 9 says, "This was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man." In this dark world, if a person has Christ, he will know all about God. When this light shines forth, man will say, "Here is God." They will recognize the light as God.

Up to verse 9, we still do not know who this light is. Read on from verse 10 to verse 15: "He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him. He came to His own, yet those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name, who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality. John testified concerning Him and cried out, saying, This was He of whom I said, He who is coming after me has become ahead of me, because He was before me." Have you realized, after reading the above verses, that all that is recorded here are actual facts, rather than many doctrines?

Yes, I know this, according to John chapter 1, John was sent by God to bear witness of the Light, Jesus. I have absolutely no clue why God would send his Son knowing people wouldn't even recognize Him as His Son.

JESUS IS

What did John the Baptist say about Christ? He said, "He...is...after me." And yet He who was after John would be before him. This is because Christ was before him in the first place. This is the beginning of the testimony of John the Baptist.

John 1:27: "He who is coming after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie." The preaching of John is the beginning of our faith. He came just to tell others who Jesus of Nazareth is. Not only was Christ before John, He was so much greater than John that he was not worthy to untie the thong of His sandal and be His slave.

John 1:29: "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

Verse 30: "This is He of whom I said, A man is coming after me who has become ahead of me, because He was before me." When John introduced Jesus, he said, "This is He"! (v. 30). The Gospel begins by showing us who Jesus is!

I believe that John, who was a witness of Jesus, HAD to reinforce the "fact" to everybody that Jesus was God. It was his duty as a leader of this new cult to spread his name out there and to exaggerate that this great person, Jesus, was really God's son. You see, John's Gospel MUST exhault Jesus' name beyond reality to make people believe he is actually who he says he is. This was the job of the rest of the disciples too. Well, minus Judas, he had some personal problems he was dealing with at that time. Basically, you can't bring out a new product without good marketing.

~~

OK, You may respond to my comments if you so wish or you can comment on my excerpt from another book. I chose this chapter because it explains how Christianity got from Jerusalem to Rome. (We know how Christianity came to America already). How it spread and why it spread. It is quite amazing to me that Christianity is still holding strong today and didn't fizzle down like many other religions disregarded as myths today.

Taken from chapter 1 of the book titled, "Biblical Nonsense" by Dr. Jason Long

Jerusalem To Rome

The early spread of Christianity is almost entirely attributed to the Apostle Paul. His letters to neighboring regions, especially the one to the Romans included in the New Testament, were widely influential in changing local religious views. Before the purported arrival of Jesus Christ, the original Hebrew religion, as found in the Old Testament, was an unfathomably harsh one. If you

What's up, people, I can't believe this thread is still going. Anyway, I have to agree with one of the previous posters, banning things like saying "Merry Christmas" is just plain ridiculous. I am not a christian and never again will be, but I still say bless you when someone sneezes, Merry Christmas, and call french fries and french toast by their rightful name. It's all just habit and who really cares? It doesn't hurt anyone or anything...it's a part of our culture. By the way, Freedom Fries just sounds stupid

I also apologize for my absence. I am currently outprocessing the Air Force and have cut my internet connection. I will not be on here very often and this discussion might have to be put on hold for a month or so I'm really sorry

Amen, Jade.

I read Paul's words...

1 Corinthians 2:1

In agreement with rules, let's begin You can respond to my question that you quoted in the above post to start it off...

In simple terms you go to Hell.  I'm just not convinced that Hell is eternal, that you only get one chance (this lifetime) to make the "correct" decision, or what it looks like or how it operates.  In my view it is important to believe that Christ did save the world on the cross, that he did reconcile the whole world to God and that we can choose to remain where we are (in perfect reconciliation to God through Christ) or to "leave the party".  I believe that even those in Hell are reconciled to God, they just refuse to experience that reconciliation on God's terms, which is that they bring nothing to the table and give all credit to Christ.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If I was to ever become a Christian again, it would be along the lines of how you think. Yes, the notion of an eternal hell awaiting you is a great motivation to become/stay christian. I did mention this before but did you ever stop to think of the verses that describe hell like "there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Hmm...I had no idea that souls had lungs to wail or teeth to gnash....a spirit that is a matterless substance can feel physical pain as we know it? Astonishing claims the bible makes sometimes.

I read JESUS WHO IS GOD..100% GOD,100%MAN...and I DON'T CARE not alittle bit,zero,nicht,nada de nada if ANYONE that posts on worthyboards doesn't agree with this,because UNLESS I preach THE GOSPEL as IT IS I would be a FALSE PROPHET and I would be responsible not to anyone but TO GOD!

The BIBLE is HIS WORD, and nobody should even try to TAMPER with it!

THE LORD JESUS CHRIST,in the days of His incarnation,talked MORE about HELL than HEAVEN!!

WHY?...because GOD IS GOOD that's why!!!

GOD takes NO PLEASURE in the death and perdition of the wicked.

GOD IS HOLY and RIGHTEOUS in a way that we,corrupt and wicked human beings,CANNOT EVEN CONCEIVE!JESUS,being GOD,WARNED OVER and OVER and OVER again humanity about the HORRIFYING consequences of REJECTING HIM .

HE doesn't want man ending up in HELL for ETERNITY!!!!

Now,if JESUS says that,LETS NOT BE FOOLS!!!

Lets NOT try to WATER DOWN or ADULTERATE or CHANGE THE WORD of GOD,trying to be philosophical or use various sophisms TRYING to say that HELL is not REAL or is not A DEFINITE PLACE of ETERNAL( I  mean FOR EVER!!!!!) TORMENT and SUFFERENCE!!!

JESUS was NOT lunatik no mad man...HE was not on some pischedelic mushrooms neither He was an "ESSENE" as somebody dares to say,HE WAS and IS THE ETERNAL SON,THE ETERNAL GOD,HE IS THE TRUTH,and so only a BLIND PHARISEE or A HELLBENT MAD SINNER would try to attribute lying to JESUS,to what avail,but his own PERDITION FOR ETERNITY?>??

WHY in the world GOD would send HIS OWN BELOVED SON to DIE the atrocious death of a criminal on a Roman cross...UNLESS there is an horrible HELL to avoid and a beautiful wonderful HEAVEN to gain for those that repent and RECEIVE CHRIST?

What a foolish thing to reduce CHRIST and HIS GOSPEL to ISRAEL only....JESUS CAME to SAVE HIS OWN,ISRAEL and the REST of the people of ALL the nations that would TURN from their WICKED WAYS and TURN TO HIM!!!

YES,my message is to EVERYBODY: WE are living on BORROWED TIME,individually and globally...IT IS TIME TO REPENT and GO BACK TO GOD and BELIEVE INTEGRALLY HIS GOSPEL and BOW our HEARTS and KNEES to THE KING of GLORY ,THE LORD JESUS CHRIST,WHO IS COMING BACK TO TAKE WHAT IS RIGHTFULLY HIS!!!

JESUS CHRIST IS NOT a sloppy wet RELIGIOUS LEADER of some perverted religion of which the world is full,JESUS CHRIST IS ALMIGHTY GOD and on this side of ETERNITY we can still APPEAL to HIS GRACE and MERCY and BE FORGIVEN and ACCEPTED and SAVED ETERNALLY because of HIS BLOOD and HIS RESURRECTION...but...if we live this life WITHOUT having been RECONCILED to GOD through HIS SON......WE ARE GOING BE ETERNALLY LOST!!!

HELL,FIRE and BRIMSTONE? Our refined and perverted ears don't want HEAR what THE SPIRIT says?

Well,we BETTER REPENT before it is TOO LATE.....

Who has an ear to hear...let him/her HEAR and REPENT and BELIEVE JESUS CHRIST and RECEIVE FORGIVENESS and ETERNAL LIFE and HIS HOLY GLORIOUS SPIRIT!!

AMEN and AMEN,GLORY BE TO THE ETERNAL LIVING GOD!!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are the epitome of accepting the bible as a child...

Agnostic,

Is it the "package" of Christianity you've rejected or the Gospel?  Could it be that you'd be willing to consider yourself reconciled to God because of Christ as long as you didn't have to believe in all the "stuff" that goes along with that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From my heart, I would say it is a rejection of christianity and organized religion in general. I lack the blind faith required to be a christian and I honestly doubt the divinity of Jesus Christ.

If God allowed only the existence of people who he knew would be saved, he would be displaying favouritism instead of justice,  Justice is to allow us to practice our freewill by choosing God over the world or vice versa.  By simply not allowing non-belivers to exist he would be depriving those "potential" souls of the ability to make that choice.

Unless they are created and allowed to make that choice between God and the world, there is no basis on which to decide whether or not they should have been allowed to exist in the first case. You catch my drift?

Sounds like a fun game, for God anyway. Let's see who will worship and who will reject me....ya know, for the fun of it.

Interesting reflection you had "maybe I'll be a born again christian again"

I've never heard of being born again again....

I'm sorry, my fault. I really need to brush up on my Christian terminology. Here's the correct translation: "Maybe I will re-dedicate my life to Christ after years of rejection and backsliding, and once again I will say hundala kundala shundala."

I hope one day you experience the second birth which Jesus spoke of,  It's amazing

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hope so too.

I am curious why you quote scripture which is from the Spirit to "the churches" to someone who claims to be outside of the church?  Or do you just get to ignore the last verse?

If you've ever seen The Big Kahuna you'd understand why quoting scriptutre AT someone just gets people mad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just let him go, let him go. He's like a rabid wolverine with the bible-quoting he gives me. Nod and smile and back away slowly....

Repent of your sins.When you called GOD evil you blasphemed our LORD.I wouldnt have let you spoke past that before I would have banned you

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow! Banned Agnostic from the message board? That's right, we gotta stand up for God, make sure people toe the line or they are OUT. Gee whiz.

Agnostic, have you ever read The Great Divorce by CS Lewis? It is a very imaginative look at Heaven and Hell. Lewis imagines that Hell is a vast expanse of territory where everyone builds houses far, far away from each other so they don't have to have contact with anyone - they so despise each other and only regard themselves as significant. It is pretty interesting.

I am so with you on what is literal and what is metaphorical in the Bible. There is a certain amount of information that is fairly clear and straightforward and then a TON which is ambiguous and even "poetic", intended to give expression to an experience but not intended to be a "report" of the experience.

I am 37 and grew up in a fairly mainstream Protestant church. I sang in the choir, did lots of solo work, headed up "worship teams" the whole nine yards. About 5 years ago I grew increasingly frustrated by the message I had been getting every Sunday which seemed to contain 50% truth (as I saw it) and 50% stuff the pastor made up depending on how he felt that week. I realized that the Gospel, the central message of Jesus, the FOUNDATION of my faith, was only getting lip service. We spent 90% of our Sundays hearing messages on how we weren't living up to God's expectations and how displeased He probably was of us and how we needed to "come back to Him" yadda, yadda, yadda. All preached with the best intentions and with good motivations, I believe. Still, at this point in my life I am able to say that the Gospel is the one thing I hold firm to and all else is debateable as long as it does not violate that.

On Larry King's show he asked Billy Graham if God loved Satan and Mr. Graham could not answer. He simply said, "I don't know". I loved that answer! If you place your faith in Christ then you can say "I don't know" to TONS of stuff and still be OK. You can believe that Hell is a lake of fire (though I disagree), you can believe that everyone gets to Heaven, it doesn't matter. All you need be concerned about is in whom you place your faith, yourself or Christ. And even that doesn't concern me all that much (for others) because I know God is in control and He'll work with you just as He has with me, in His own way. All this chatter about what about this and what about that is just interesting intellectual exercise.

In any "movement" you'll have wackos, just ignore them

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have not read anything by CS Lewis, although I should. But thank you for your nice post, I have really nothing to say except a smile

Kinda hard to draw someone to Christ by telling them that they are going straight to hell(or anything close to that statement).  I'm sure God is happy that AF is asking these questions.  Who knows, when times get really hard in life a Christian could be the one person that AF needs to bring him to the reality that Jesus is real.  We have to becareful not to shoot every non christian down.  And let's try to be sweet to each other...........and not like artificial sugar either

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wish more christians were like you, don't ever change

So...A-gnostic...stop FOOLING AROUND MATE..and if you despise Christ and the christians why don't you DEBATE your vain babblings in same NEW AGE club?

I mean,your arguments are not even interesting,so I'll give you HIS WORD again:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*sigh*

PLEASE READ:

I just want to clear a few things up. First of all, I am not here to belittle, mock, or offend Christians. I do not hate nor despise born-again Christians. My parents are born-agains and I love them very much I do realize I am on your turf and my goal isn't to be as offensive as possible and live up to the stereotype of a non-believer. I study different religions but mainly focus on Christianity because I know it best and was the religion of choice in the location where I grew up. I am very open-minded and even open-minded to the fact that I may again be a born-again Christian. (highly highly doubtful, but, who knows?) If I offend anyone I'm deeply sorry and please accept my apologies. Before running straight to the Mods (it's already happened my first day here) please PM me and let me know you were offended and I'm sure I'll apologize. I may come across a little sarcastic at times, but it's just my nature, I've always been that way. I hope this clears things up a little.

And dude, if my arguments are so uninteresting then why do you keep posting in my thread?

I just thought I should mention - because not one has.  Someone has posted something like, "I used to be a Christian - but now I am not".  This is impossible according to Scripture.  Scripture says that Jesus will proclaim to the unsaved "I never knew you".  He will not say "I used to know you" or "I once knew you" - He will say "I NEVER knew you".  Paul says in Romans 6 that "those whom He justifies, he also glorifies" - no one gets off the bus on the way.

I just think that's important, because when someone says "when I used to be a Christian it wasn't as good as you guys say it was" - what ever their religious experience was - it wasn't one of genuine salvation.

1John says that some people dabble in Christianity for awhile and then leave - and John says "they went out from us, but they were not of us.  If they had been of us, they would have no doubt remained"

Also, in Jesus' parable of the sower, he describes 4 different types of people who get exposed to the truth.  Some appear to be genuine for awhile, but Jesus says they "have no root" - only the one that remains is genuine.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You mean to tell me that anyone who rejects christianity at some point in their life was never a christian in the first place? You mean to tell me that all the praying, church services attended, youth camp, youth convention, sunday school, bible reading, talking to God, and the absolute BLIND FAITH I HAD IN HIM for 18 years of my life was nothing? I didn't dabble in christianity, my friend, it was indoctrined into my young lil head since I can remember. Just because I took my common sense and logic off the shelf and decided to use the brain that supposed God gave me, I was never anything to God....Well, then. All I can say is what a waste of 18 years!! For you to tell me I was never a christian just reminds me of the great people I used to know at church who always thought I was "never christian enough" for them.

Repent of your sins.When you called GOD evil you blasphemed our LORD.I wouldnt have let you spoke past that before I would have banned you

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is my personal opinion, I'm sorry if it offended you. If you are so dedicated to your beliefs and your LORD then my opinion should not affect you at all. If you want to ban me because I question the confusing contradictions in the Bible, then do it. All it shows to me is weakness in your own faith and others' opinions rattle your beliefs. Also, last time I checked this forum was entitled Apologetics: Defending our Faith!

One thing, even you aren't a christian, but are a "good" person, you are still serving God. A good person meaning someone who doesn't lie, cheat, steal, hurt others, unselfish, and treating others as they would want to be treated.

Unfortunately, however, even the "goodness" of man is not sufficient to attain salvation. I agree that there are sometimes kinder, sometimes more tolerant unbelievers than believers. But the same holds true for pretty much anything. here are just some people that are kinder and more tolerant in general.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I knew someone would respond with this sooner or later Oh, I'll just say it and get it over with: "Good people don't go to heaven, saved people do!!"

Humans are unique

Everything else is a kettle of fish, or swamp muck, depending on how you see things

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We are definately unique, I mean, c'mon, we did invent the toaster!

Hi Agnostic!

Man, we sound like the same person except I have found a way to answer these questions with the Bible that still allow me to sleep at night

First of all, I know where you are coming from.  In my "fundamentalist" days I had to answer your questions with things like "Well, God can do what He wants" or "Some vessels are fitted for wrath" or "Does the hammer tell the one wielding it how to be used?"..things like that.

I think one of the assumptions you are holding is that:

a) people who don't believe in Jesus go to Hell

- there is debate within the church over this, it is by no means a doctrine on  which all Christian churches hold the same opinion.  Some would argue (from scripture) that Hell is a place designed for Satan and his angels and not Humankind.  You can believe that non-Believers do not go to Hell and still be a "Christian" because, quite frankly, the Bible is quite ambiguous and unclear on a LOT of issues like this.

b) Hell is a literal "lake of fire".

- again, some people believe that this was a metaphorical description of how unpleasant Hell is for us because it represents the pain of dissociation from the Creator.  Even those verses which imply that Hell is "hot" (such as the Rich Man in the Old Testament who cries out for water from Hell) don't answer the question about how Hell can be hot yet not consume the body.  I mean, this rich man wasn't screaming in agony as you would expect if you were treading lava.  Anyhow, just to say that theer is no clear answer on this, either.

c) Hell is eternal.

- More controversy.  Many writers (like CS Lewis and Ferrar Capon, just to name a couple) suggest that the Parables of Judgement in the New Testament indicate that hell lasts only as long as those inside it wish to remain (the Parable of the Prodigal being one...at the end the Father stands out in the courtyard pleading with the brother to enter into the party, which the brother refuses to do because he judges his younger brother to be unworthy of a celebration).

If you can accept that there is a lot of uncertainty within Christiandom regarding these issues then to finally answer your question a POSSIBLE explanation might be this:

God created human being with the free will to accept or reject His plan for salvation, which is faith in the work of Christ on their behalf.  If we reject this "deal" then we stand on the outside of Heaven, called Hell.  Hell isn't pleasant and we can only speculate about why that is so.  But there is reason to believe that God continually invites us into Heaven, yes even after death.  Some may choose to enter some may never, I don't know.  But I think that those in Hell aren't angry at God for being in Hell, I don't think they would consider Him evil for their reality.  Yes, I believe God knows everyone's destiny.  I think it would be great if everyone eventually placed their faith in Christ and maybe they will, I simply don't know.  So, unless I KNOW these things I can't make the assumption that God is evil, especially when the overwhelming evidence is to the contrary.

We should ask ourselves why we NEED non-Believers to suffer eternally with the WORST kind of pain FOREVER?  Could it have more to do about us than God, our  desire for retribution, revenge, justice?  How does serving a God who is forever patient and loving a bad thing?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for taking the time to help answer my question

One thing, even you aren't a christian, but are a "good" person, you are still serving God. A good person meaning someone who doesn't lie, cheat, steal, hurt others, unselfish, and treating others as they would want to be treated. I'm sure you will agree that there are many non-believers who are more loving and caring than a lot of christians who you meet at church. (if you go to church, you definately know what I mean.)

The bible is a book of mystery considering the fact that people are always debating on what should be taken symbolically and what indeed must be taken literally. For instance, did you every wonder about how the bible says in hell there will be "wailing" and "gnashing of teeth" to describe the excruciating pain? SOULS have LUNGS to wail and TEETH to gnash?? I always thought a soul was a matterless object, not a fleshlike body. If the pain described is as what some believe to be the emotional pain from being so far from God, then I think I can deal with that a lot easier than spending eternity with the christians I've been trying to avoid the last 8 years of my life.

You see man, the moment that the Bible declares at least once that GOD IS GOOD and HIS GOODNESS ENDURES FOR EVER....means EXACTLY THAT!

The Scripture CANNOT BE BROKEN...neither changed or altered...

The Scriptures are GOD's OWN DECLARATION OF THE TRUTH...and JESUS HIMSELF Whon is THE WORD of GOD INCARNATE ,HE IS THE TRUTH...so your question about God being EVIL falls ...THE QUESTION CANNOT STAND on ITS OWN LEGS! because from GENESIS to REVELATION you can read THAT GOD IS GOOD and HIS GOODNESS ENDURES FOR EVER....

I tell you who IS EVIL....."Apollion,Abbadon,Satan,The Old Serpent,THE FATHER of LIES,THE DEVIL,THE DRAGON....THE FALLEN ONE!!!!"

Be careful friend...DON'T PLAY with FIRE....stop FOOLING YOURSELF and playing "PHILOSPHER and BIG THINKER"...I say to you in TRUE christian LOVE...STOP FOOLING AROUND and REPENT ...GO TO GOD and REPENT of all this junk and you'll find that GOD IS GOOD and LOVES YOU and REALLY doesn't want at all that you END UP in THE LAKE OF FIRE FOR ETERNITY! I REPEAT: E T E R N I T Y.......IN JESUS NAME I IMPLORE YOU: REPENT and SAVE YOUR SOUL BY TRUSTING IN JESUS as YOUR LORD and SAVIOUR otherwise YOU WILL GO TO HELL,notwhitstanding that THE FATHER GAVE JESUS FOR YOU...DO YOU READ ME? FOR YOU...DO YOU READ ME? FOR YOU........but EVEN GOD with ALL HIS MIGHT will not go against YOUR WILL...I exhort you: REPENT before is too late!

ARE YOU SO SURE THAT YOU WILL SEE THE LIGHT OF THE DAY TOMORROW?WHAT ABOUT IF YOUR LIFE WILL BE REQUIRED TONIGHT? WHY END UP IN THE EVERLASTING DAMNATION of HELL with satan and his followers? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU? ARE YOU CRAZY?

R E P E N T...seriously,I mean it,in JESUS NAME.

AMEN

Your friend in Jesus ROBERTO( a dirty sinner saved BY GRACE and FAITH in JESUS CHRIST WHO IS GOOD and LOVES YOU TOO!)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you for reinforcing the reason why I would never again want to be a finger-pointing, aggressive, intolerable, red-eyed christian. I almost forgot why I de-converted. Although, it is tempting to spend eternity with people like you.

AF,

Thanks for hanging in there, and being patient with us.  I know this is probably more than a little overwhelming.

Okay, you asked for Scriptural references as proof of my claim that God has ceased from creation. 

The answer is actually very simple.  If you look at Genesis 1-2 you will see two things in terms of creation.  The first thing is the phrase, "After its own kind."  Everything living that God created was "After its own kind": The plants - Genesis 1:11-12; and the animals - Genesis 1:21-22, 25.  But when we get to the creation of man we see that he was created after God's kind.  That is, man was created in the image and likeness of God.  This is an important point that we will get to later.

With each of the items of creation there is the term "After it's own kind."  But there is also the blessing of reproduction. God told each part of His creation to "Be fruitful and multiply.  This is the cycle that God put into motion. 

Next we need to look at Genesis 2:1-3.  These verses say that God completed His work of creation, and rested on the seventh day.  God even blessed that day of the week and ordained it for rest. 

Therefore, just from these verses in the first two chapters of Genesis, we see that God's creation set into motion the entire biosphere, with its life cycles.

~~~

Now, getting back to the issue of man's being created after God's own kind.  What do you think that implies?  I'm sure that that, in and of itself brings in a whole host of questions.  However, I wish to point out something very specific in terms of man's being created after God's image and likeness. That is, that man was created with a certain plan in mind.  And in fact, the Bible affirms to us that man was created with a specific intention and a goal.

What is the point of procreation?  The point of procreation is to have a duplication of yourself.  Not a mirror image or a "clone," but a duplication.  Someone that possesses your life - call it "genetic code" if you wish.

I have three beautiful daughters who look like my wife and I.  They do not look exactly like either of us, but they are the duplication of us both, and they have our nature.  They act much the same way as we do, they sounds the same, etc.  If you were to look at my daughters you would know what I look like.  They resemble me.

God's desire in creation was to have a duplication of Himself.  Not to have "little gods" or some mirror images of Himself, but to have a duplication, and expression of Himself on the earth.  This "duplication," called, "man," was to have His authority on the earth over creation, and be His corporate expression.  Just as my children are my expression to and extent, so also man was created to be God's corporate expression.

Beginning with God's creation of man in Genesis, all the way through the Bible, this is God's unique desire:  To have a corporate expression of Himself.  Eventually, when you arrive at the last chapter of the last book of the Bible you see that God gets what He was after from the very beginning.  There is a bride there with God.  That bride is the church, which has become God's corporate expression, His built city, and who is the wife of Christ in eternity.

So eventually what is God's eternal desire, and more importantly, how do you fit within God's plan?  Well, if you examine the Bible carefully you will see that it begins with a couple and ends with a couple.  God's desire, therefore, is to have a bride that will match him in His life and having His nature.  And the way that you "fit into" this bride is to first have His life in you.  How do you do that?

What do you think the gospel is for?  Why do you think you were saved as a young man?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very nice response, thank you for taking the time to help answer my question. Setting the course of life into motion is a notion I need to look into a little more. God having a laissez-faire attitude about our constant reproduction is a new idea to me. I've just always thought he took time to create each one of us as unique...

But your father being more experienced in life than you would have a better understanding of what life is all about. My point was that you can choose to scorn wisdom and it may seem right to you at the time, but there will come a time where hindsight will give you a swift kick in the nodes.

There's scripture that goes something like

There's a way that seems right to a man but in the end leads to destruction.

You know what I mean?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can agree with you there because it happened to me in my life. My father got a lot smarter since I was 18