Shelby

Another update. Grandma tooka huge turn for the worse. The put her on a CPAP machine to help her to breathe. Shortly there after, he kidneys, lungs, and pancreas all failed. She was put on life support. Her and Aunt Sandra both have living wills not to be kept alive with life support. Right now they are removing the life support from both of them. It is a waiting game now. They think they will both pass within the hour. My sister and I will be going out there as soon as we hear word of when the funerals will be. Keep us in your prayers. Because of his parents being in the hospital there too, they were unable to be by either side as they passed. Keep my husband in prayer, right now he is reading scripture to my grandmother as she goes to be with the Lord. He has never done that before, and is somewhat shooken, but knows it would be her chosen way to go. Thank you for your prayers.

Well, I just got a call from my husband that the doctors believe there is nothing else they can do for Aunt Sandra. She is on 13 machines and that is what is keeping her alive. They think if they were to take the machines away, she would die within the hour. She has a living will not to be kept alive with machines. So all of the siblings are in contact deciding when to take the machines off. The sister who has taken care of of our aunt for 20 years, is on vacation. She will have the hardest time with this decision. Grandma is still not with it, so she will not have a say. She will not be able to say bye or even know beforehand if by chancce she makes it. We are all dealing with the reality of the situation right now. Please pray for us. This is very hard. But she is so tired of living too. She has had MS for so long, and it really has taken its toll. I think God will finally be ending her suffering. We all know she will finally after 30 years of having MS, have no more pain. We will surely miss her. GBU

Thanks a bunch all of you. We are now just waiting to see what will happen with Grandma and Aunt Sandra. We hope they make it, it doesn't look too good though.

Thanks to all of you. Katie especially you. I am so sorry I haven't returned your call yet. Things have been hectic. Here is the info I received from my husband this morning. He is there in New Hampshire. The test results are still not back if the other driver who caused the crash was under the influence of anything. He was very eratic and rude to everyone in the emergency room, demanding to be seen, meanwhile, my family members were dying. Our aunt was airlifted to Dartmouth University Hospital because she was so critical. Neither grandma, or Aunt Sandra seem to understand they are even in a hospital let alone been in a car accident. Although both were awake and alert right after the crash. Also find below a link to an article in the local newspaper regarding the crash. The brownish red car with the sun roof is our car, and the green saturn wagon is the young man who hit them. You will see 2 pictures. Also in the article the age of Grandma is mistaken, she is 87. http://www.citizen.com/October_2004/10.13....th_1013_04a.asp

I love that one Katie. I have used it many times. Also there is a story of a father and son. It was about time for the boy's 16th birthday and his father asked him what he wanted. They boy was adament about a particular video game system. So on his Birthday after all the other gifts were opened, the father hands his son a small box. And the boy immediately started to get angry. It wasn't the right size of what he asked for. So he contnues to open it while within in his anger was rising. After tearing off all of the paper, it uncovered a brand new Bible. The son stared at it for a minute in dis belief, and then just put it down and ran to his room leaving the gift lying on the table. Later that evening the father placed the Bible outside the boy's room. In the morning the boy found it and just stuck it in the bottom drawer of his dresser. He walked around for weeks moping about how it wasn't fair, that that was all he wanted....... A couple months later his father was killed in a tragic accident. The boy was distraught, feeling deep guilt for holding anger against his father for so long. After a while of searching for consolation, he went to his bottom drawer. He opened up the box, and took out the brand new leather Bible. He opened the cover and there was a note, "Son, If I could give you the world, I would, but if you would accept this gift as a token of my love for you. John 3:35 The son quickly flipped to John 3:35 where he found two crisp $100.00 bills. And read the scripture: The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. Often we feel like we are being deprived, and God is gently showing us to be greatful for what he has already blessee us with. With the world today, people tend to think more of "what do I get?" Instead of "Can I live without this?" Just because we want something, even think we NEED something doesn't mean that it is God's best for us. You see the boy did not buy that Video Game System. He was so moved by his father's generosity and sincere wish to give the world to his son, he gave that money to the church so that someonw without a father might be helped with that money. The money was there now for the kid to go get his game, but just because it is there, and you want it, that is when your faith is tested most. Will you seek God's will or will you choose to do what you want? (I know a little off, but it is so true. Just because it is there, and we feel drawn more towards what we want, and figure, well if God didn't want me to have it, he wouldn't put it here. Not always true. We should seek God even when we think we are sure.)

I am in agreement with Deirdre. The law is good for what it wants to protect, unfortunately, alot of parents of daughters who make bad choices, usually lie about their age anyway, they punish the other kid for the rest of his life because of it. I would never condone that kind of activity, I think it is maliucious and vindictive if you know your daughter chose to make that choice and sleep with a guy older than her as well. It really is put on their record for the rest of their life possibly because they were a dumb teenager. But when an employer screens that person, he doesn't get an explanation of what happened, he gets, "criminal sex offender of a minor. My 2 cents.

Darkest, I can see what you mean. But you know, I grew up with both of my parents being hippies. They are both free spirits who believe you should be able to do what you want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. BUT they were the parents. Luckily they instilled ALOT of confidence in me and set specific boundaries for me. Now the boundaries might not be what I would have set now that I am grown, but they did. Just because there are adults who have unhealthy expectations and lifestyles doesn't negate a teen making their own decisions. I dont' drink, do drugs, have casual sex, etc. yet I saw all of this almost daily growing up. I always knew I had a choice though. You can only blame the parents so much. BUT this isn't about the parent. We are talking specifically about this teen girl. Being that I have been one and can now look back on it, and that I counsel and spend alot time with many teen girls I also think that there are some A-Typical things about them. If they do not fit into the A type, then they are usually the exception to the rule. Plus atleast for me, I was speaking of girls who have already had sex. There are obvious signs and types that come into place. There are also specific techniques to help them gather themselves and get back on track. You obviously have a good head on your shoulders and being that you are a virgin, then the type that I described doesn't fit you. I hope you know this isn't about being a teen girl, this is a discussion on how to help one, and theories of how and why. Thanks for your input. It is always nice to hear from the "horses mouth".

Absolutely Darkest Red, I am not lumping all teens together, but there are things that are indicitive of them. Not too long ago I was one. And though I would not admit it at that time I know now that I was not as clear headed as I could have been. There is so muh going on in a teens life, physically, mentally, etc. ALOT Sure many adults have even more screwed up lives, but that isn't what we are talking about here. I think that the way that some of you say to go about it, kind of scaring her into submission, if it works will only do it for a while. It is time to build a different type of relationship. This time is critical. Like Tess said, don't push because you don't know where she will run. I really believe it is about communication and opening up thise lines. I know you might have thought they were open, but, she didn't feel that. Boundaries are good, and now you know that you might want to know exactly where she is and go meet the parents when you drop her off for an all nighter. It is time to catch her before she gives up on herself. They stats show that teens who are involved in a sport or extra curricular activity are less likely to have sex irresponsibly, or at all, let alone stay away from drugs and alcohol. It also helps with self discipline, and raises grades by virtue of have a GPA to stay in certain clubs and sports. I would encourage her to get involved in a sport or group at school. Drama is always fun, you get to act out, choir, debate, all sports, swimming is always great and takes a lot fo conditioning. I think all swim teams become very close knit and high achievers. Good luck. But don't slap her with the truth, she is young but not that young. She knows what is right and wrong, and chances are she is just as dissappointed if not more in herself.

What isn't personal? Now I have moved on, maybe you can too.

I don't have any older siblings at all. I'm the oldest of 7 and I've always been the "motherly" figure to them. I have three sisters, and 3 brothers. My sisters are only 12, 10, and 1. Many people mature at different ages, but I understand how an older sister would see people her own sister's ages. I can only imagine how I will feel when my own sister's get older, and start dating, etc. It's hard for me to be the "kid", since I've always been the "adult" in my family. My mother and I are like best friends, so she is very mothering, but she see's me as an equal.. most of the time I'm giving her advice, for some reason, she's always looked up to me. And so I've naturally stepped into that position of being the adult, and mothering my siblings. My friends have always been older as well. My BEST friend, who is closest in age to me, is 21, three years older than I am. My other friends have always been 5-8 years older than myself. I've always fit in better with people older than myself. I find it very hard to get close to girls my own age. Most of them aren't even THINKING about marriage, much less married, or thinking about children. I find myself having things in common with girls who are older, and at that stage in their lives. Again, sorry if I've offended, I didn't mean to, I was only speaking truth as I understand it. God bless No we are good. We have alot in common. My mother and I are alot more like sisters that mother and daughter too. I usually have to be the one to make a move to stay in contact, or to advise her on what to do in situations. Unfortunately she is not a Christian right now. She is a great mother now though. I see now that we are ALOT alike. When I was 17 I had a 3yr old to take care of, my baby sister, because my mom is disabled, so I naturally took on that adult role in my house and took care of all of my siblings and my dad. I cooked, cleaned, checked homework, found babysitters, etc. I grew up really quick. I totally get it. I am so sorry for anything I have said before. You seem to have a great head on your shoulders and lately I have noticed that I have learned alot from you. GBU Deirdre! PS - To stay off subject, does your name have a meaning or history?

Oh my. I feel for you. I do not have children yet, but I am a youth pastor. I have been working with teens for a while now. I am guessing that she is denying it because she is ashamed, and also feels betrayed by your brother. You might want to just start planting seeds of your openess to talk about a situation. I have had many girls brag or tell others that they went wild and had sex, some of the times, they were actually raped, but they feel the need to gain power over it by saying that it was a choice. I am sure she now knows it is not all it was said to be. So now she is dissappointed in herself. HERE IS THE HARD PART, now is the time to instill as much confidence and love as you can muster in her. Often these girls are so dissappointed, they think "owell, I already did it, so now it doesn't matter if I do it again". This is the biggest misconception for sexually active young girls. She not only needs to know, but needs to FEEL that she can come to you. I would explain that you already know. And that since it has been done, there is nothing that can be done about the past. But you would have liked to have been there for her afterwards. Let her know that you still love her, sure you were dissappointed, and shocked. BUT don't tell her it hurt you. She knows. But she is a teen, and everything in her life and thought process are about her, and that is where you have to meet her. Speak about her, and her feelings only. Not about anyone elses or how it affects anyone else. Chances are she already knows all of that. She must be ashamed, and really trying to forgive herself. She will say she likes it. But she doesn't, she like the feeling that a guy desires her. Show her how you desire to be around her, to do special things. Encourage her to bring her friends, even that bad one to the house. After some time of mom getting to know the friends, then maybe you will better understand how she relates to them. It is so hard. But nothing can change what has been done. Don't slap her with scripture, or a guilt trip. (I doubt you will) But by your own demeanor, and witness show her how a relationship with God is very much healing. Another thing, you might get to the point where you can share some of your experiences with her, that you haven't already said, something very personal, so that she feels that you can trust her with your feelings and secrets. She might be willing to share. Do offer advise with it, you can say what you wish you heard, or what you learned. If she senses you are telling her "the moral of this story is.." then she will tune you out. This is gonna take some time. Be open to her and her feelings. As warped as they may seem, they are very real to her. I hope this helps a little. GBU

I might have spoke in haste, I will not leave, but I will be more guarded in offering any posts. The one thing Deirdre is that it worries me too how Christians are willing to offend other Christians being of the mindset that they are family so we can call them out. It isn't like that. I have noticed that even I do that in my relationships. I can be cranky about something, and my husband will usually be the one who sees the crankyness, and I think it is because I subconsciously think, well he knows me and loves me for who I am, and this is me right now. But I would never show that to someone else for worry that they might think they had something to do with my crankiness at the moment. I hope that made sense. Thanks Kristen. You always have a way of summing up things in a way that I am unable to. I agree absolutely with you. The main thing being... This is fine when you state it, but then it becomes more personal when remarks are made back and forth. Because it is no longer between a person and God. I was hurt, very much, but mostly upset with myself for letting some of this get to me. Mainly that I let my guard down, and expected people to respond in a loving manor. That is what I try to do. I can't say I haven't failed though. Usually a result of immediately responding. The heart break of this is that I no longer feel like this is a safe place to fellowship. I will be guarded, because I was hurt. But I really hope mostly that we all learn something from this. If nothing else, how to temper our posts with love. IT IS possible to show truth with love. Wven though we are all believers, we should still treat eachothers in a way, that we recognize that our words are a witness to eachother as much as they are to non believers. Right now in this day and age, we really need to stick together. I hope that my true beliefs on my role as a woman is now understood. Thank you Deirdre for always being willing to hear me out. I know we have but heads many times, and that is expected sometimes, but I am really happy for you and Nick. I wish you God's Blessing as you both fulfill his will on your lives. You are a young vibrant woman, and often remind me of myself. I guess that is why I do step in sometimes, I do have young sisters and they are about your age, and the thought of them getting married scares me, I can;t picture them old enough. I Guess I picture Tawney, Sumer, Crystal, and Kathy when you post, and I just want to help you not go through what i have gone through. Not to mention they know me. And you don't. So I will be more careful not to mother or be a big sister to you. I guess I just really miss them. 2 are in college, one is a senior, and one in 7th grade. I can't believe it! I feels so old. I am only 28 though. Okay enough with the reminiscing!

Okay this is going to take a minute. There are so many things that need clarification. I will first say that when I responded lately it was immediately after I read some of your posts. It was usually when I was shocked and frustrated at not being understood. So here it goes bear with me. Also, Tess, you will not see your name in this list because none of my posts were directed towards you. Posts by Nicks Girl I do not "have a position of authority. I am an ordained minister. That is all I said. I happen to be in social work at the moment as my husband prepares to go into seminary. I applied for this job to provide assistance to inmates upon their release fro prison and to offer them pen pals, Bible studies, and prayer support while they are in. It also came to be once in this position that I have been given the responsibility of all Community Service Workers for the entire campus. There are men who are CSW and it is my job to instruct them on what they need to do for the day to earn their hours. I just threw up questions like, "what about Senior Pastor, and people assumed that I am all for a woman taking over a leadership role in the church. After being ordained, I was sent to a church in Michigan, and was the Asst. Pastor. There I was mostly in charge of the childrens programming, but I also ran our fundraising efforts and worked with the Shelter. In both positions I have men who chose to apply for a position under me. It was my duty to do it to the best of my ability. Of course I did not Lord over anyone. I was quite young at that time and was very conscious that most of the men I worked with were my elders so I usually went about it in a very democratic way, but in the end, I was responsible. see, I DID NOT CHOOSE THESE POSITIONS. Here is the biggest misconception. FEMINIST? Not even. I am not even close to being a feminist. I would love to be able to stay home and be a house wife and rasie children. My husband and I both hold very traditional roles. I do all the inside chores, for the most part, and he does all the outside. He is very chivalrous. I can't tell you the last time I put gas in my own car, took out the trash, or even lifted a heavy box. I also am submissive to his direction for our spiritual life. He supports and approves of the different ministries I like to be involved in in our church. He is behind me 100% as am I of him. I never ever have had a women's rights agenda. I just threw out questions, and knew that there were times when authority would be inevitable for me and my husband being co-pastors. If my husband were to get real sick when we were pastors of a church again, then his responsibilities would fall to me since we are "co-pastors". This is all I meant. I think this is the head of the hostility I felt, no one really attacked me, they just questioned my integrity and calling, as well as salvation. That hurt, because I thought that this was a safe place ot share. But when people are so blunt as to say such things as you will see, and yes they are snippets, but they are the ones that really tugged me. It wasn't because of any convictions, it is because this has been a place of refuge and learning for me, and it turned into a very ugly damaging place, and I was frustrated and hurt that God's people would gang up and bombard a fellow believer. (that is what I feel) I am not hurt personally, not really, I am just disappointed of what this conversation took to. I was not being rude or attacking at all when I mentioned your age. Atleast I wasn't trying, at the moment I was trying to show you how I saw it play a part in your response. I never EVER said that your marriage had anything to do with this subject. I quoted myself above to reiterate, that I felt you were responding diffferently on these boards, and the turning point that I noticed was your marriage. I was trying to offer support and encouragement. It obviously was not taken that way and my apologies. Posts by SJ Does no one see the hostility in this. This is one of the things that could have said in Christian love. Again. I never ever said this, illuded to this, or would support this. This was another way of putting me down, and trying to make me look uneducated and self centered. I did not appreciate it. I live by scripture. Scripture is my refuge, and I find it offensive to use it against a fellow believer as a tool to bring them down or prove a point. Again. How is me being a woman, living in sin. And please read the above regarding my actual role within my marriage and position. See how this is offesive. How can me being a woman be compared to a homosexual who CHOOSES to live in sin? Ditto as above. Posts by Tsth NEVER once did I say anything was circumstancial, and this shows how words were put in my mouth, and then later referred to as my own. I don't pick and choose scriptures to support my stances. I read the Bible and pray for God to show me his understanding of His word for me. Circumstancial, never ever! Who dismissed it? I just offered up other questions for discussion? I think the Lord will do the work of leading those who he wants to hear his message through me to me. I don't choose the people. I just follow where God leads me and my husband. And I do preach and teach. That doesn't mean I have authority over any one. I gave the instances when I do or have had or might have any authority over men. It would never be a personal choice. I have been a social worker for many years, and I have to instruct people, including men, on steps to help them to suceed. I encourage and support their efforts to make a better life for themselves. Please refer to my post above in regards to SJs posts regarding this issue. That is just not true. This is all by your assumption of what you thought I believe. I meant in sentence fragments, not in scriptural context. Those particular scriptures have solidified my calling to be a minister of the Gospel, and I am very comfortable with them. I do not ignore scriptures because I don't think they are relevant to me. Once again, most of this is based on an assumption of what I believe. Well, we will just say that held back no punches. I can appreciate that you were trying to defend or support your stance, but it could have been said better and in a more loving manor. Posts by LarryT This was not directed at me, and I know that, but this encompassed the whole feeling that I was getting from many people. I was being compared to outrageous people who were not heaven bound. I may sin, but I do not have a lifestyle of sin. That is what was so offensive. Posts by WIP I never ever expected that. BUT since I am on a CHRISTIAN forum, I did not expect to be shunned the way I was. I was very much misunderstood just by the hypotheticals I used, and because I am ordained. I never once said that I want to have authority over a man. I would prefer not to. I cannot relate as well. Over all I feel that because I offer up hypotheticals, and a different opinion that God can call and use women to be ministers, that I am a blasphemer and living against God's word on purpose for my own agenda. I am just open that God can really use any and every one. He has a purpose for each of us. He called me at a young age, and there has never been a question in my mind that this calling was not from him. One last thing to add to this book I have written: This has never been an issue for me. Never in my life, not even once have I ever thought, oh, but I am a woman! Never. I guess it is my upbringing, and relationship with the Lord, as well as the Church I have belonged to. It never has been an issue for us. It was never a topic of discussion. We all believed that God was the ultimate authority and had the desire to call every one for a purpose to save lost souls. He could, can,a nd does call every one. I am humbled and energized that he would call me for such a task as to be a minister. It has never been anything I have taken lightly or irreverently. I will continue to follow God's will for my life, as he reveals it to me through scritpure, prayer, and Godly wisdom whom he has called to minister to me. I am sorry for anything that I have said that has offended any of you. Often I do realize I responded in defense of myself, and it was usually a hasty response instead of taking time. But there were many other times where I really thought and prayed about what to say, and still felt misunderstood. There came a point of no return, and I felt bombarded and cornered, yet I knew that God would not have me cave, I am very strong in my faith that God has called me, and he re affirmed it through much prayer during this whole discussion, mainly because of how much some of the above comments were getting at me. And I know and believe now that Satan was attacking me, to try and shake my faith, and to break me down. God held me up, and eventually helped me to see that it has been a huge misconception of what I believe. So I have tried to use this post to explain what I do believe. I do believe the word of God is infallible, and I believe that God is working in me right at this moment helping me to gain a greater understanding of the enormous responsibility it is to be a minister of His Word. I do apologize for the tone of some of my posts. I also hope that this clarifies my stance. I really feel that I cannot explain it no other way. LAST - really - I have learned alot. About myself, my calling, and my way of relaying and relating to others on this board. I appreciate your patience. I am a gentle soul, and realize that I do get hurt easily after I have let my guard down, and I have on here because of such great friendships and fellowship I have gained on here. I guess I felt as if my own family was shunning me and I could not understand why, when I didn't believe what they said I did. All for the Glory of God. Shelby

Okay, Only because I don't want to let this end on this comment. I would just like to say nice try. If you read my post, I told you I am more confident in my calling. Yes your posts in particular were condescending, and leading. You know, I am leaving this conversation not because I feel convicted, or I disagree, BUT because this conversation has left Holiness long behind. I think you would like to think that this has "convicted me" and that you finally converted me, but it isn't going to happen. I have a great peace about it. I just do not have a peace about the direction this discussion has gone. It has been a Shelby attcking thread. Any one and everyone who doesn't agree with me chooses to condemn me. I realize that none of your opinions are going to change after 24 pages, so why can't you see that neither are mine. I am of the thinking that I don't know it all. I am open for God to reveal new truths to me. But it seems that you have formed your beliefs and are going to conquer the world with them. God bless, I hope you. Because, it will not hinder the Spirit. God can use even your attempts to win others to his kingdom. He can even use mine. What a thought. You this all comes down to what God is convicting or not convicting me of. So I don't feel the need to explain it to you. I feel I have over and over, yet I don't think I was able to convey that well. I never said I wanted to have authority over a man. But as it turns out, in my job, I have been asked to oversee a few. I don't see any harm in that. I am still in the same boat as Keslc, but it seems you think I am going towards Women's Activism. I am just not able to explain myself well enough. I am sorry for not spelling it out to your understanding or liking. Maybe Katie (Keslc) will explain it better. Whatever she says, you may take as my words as well. We have been best friends for 14 years, and I am confident that she will be able to say this better than I . GBU

Again, Shelby, it's terrible to refute a theological finding just because it only has 3 or 4 scriptures behind it. If this were the case, the entire doctrine of the Trinity would collapse as there are only two or three verses that actually pertain to it. Likewise, many doctrines within the Christian faith would be obliterated with this idea. It's not that we draw theology from one scripture. We look at many scriptures and get the idea. You can say you've prayed over the scripture, but I will be blunt and say you are simply being hard headed. God does not go against His Word. Also, no one is comparing you to a "gay person". We're simply saying that the logic you use to discount the interpreation of scriptures we offer leaves open justification for a homosexual to use them as well, or an adulterer, or anyone else. If we are able to say, "Regardless of what scripture says, I feel God is calling me" and offer up absolutely no alternative interpretation to the scriptures, then we leave open this indefensible gap in which anyone can now use this excuse. The problem with this is that it would take us out of the context of 1 Timothy. Paul works his way from avoiding false teachers, to propert attire of women, and then to how authority should be handled. What Paul is teaching is women should be submissive in church and not hold authority over a man. It's very black and white and to this date I have yet to see any biblical arguementation around it. It usually resorts to unprovable historical context or feelings/callings. See, to me, this doesn't appear as if though you have authority over men. To me it appears you are a pastor that teaches and the only authority you hold is over women. If that is the case, there is no biblical arguement against it. Now, if you hold authority over men, then yes, I have a problem. I think this is where you begin to mix my beliefs with a legalistic belief. Often times people here us teaching against female authority and they think we're banning women from speaking completely. My beliefs, according to the Bible, are as follows: * Women are not to hold authority over a man within the church * Women should not be the final human authority within the church * Women should never be in a position to mentor (teach on a close basis) a man or a group of men Other than that, I'm all for women having authority in certain areas (and would prefer them to), teaching, preaching, ect. Now, again, you need to look at the rest of the verse to get this. Simply drawing this conclusion off of one thing I said is not a good way to go about it. We recognize it, however the same thought process that is presented could be used by anyone living in sin. If we disregard scripture and do not offer a counter definition that holds water when examined and simply say we are called and go on our way, then this leaves justification for homosexuals, adulterers, ect to go into the ministry and be justified in doing so. And with this I will say I will bow out of this discussion and no longer post again. There are some rooms that I enjoy and will continue to read and pray for those people, but no longer will I offer any more posts. I am really not sure if I will come back at all, but I am not able to say so right now because I am particularily hurting and feeling against coming back. I cannot believe some of what I am hearing (of course I expected for not all to agree with me). You are trying to to convert me to your school of thought, and calling me a liar and hypocrite by saying that God COULD NOT call me. I say judge me by my fruits. It is obvious that Satan is a alive and well conquering peace and hope on these boards. I am tired of being beat down, and shunned by fellow believers. I am proud and priveledged to be called by God to minister to those who have ears to hear. Since there are too few on here to hear above the bickering and accusations, and name calling, I will find a better use of my time, and a better place for good fellowship. It has really put a strain on my heart to be in this discussion. I have been praying night and day for God to reveal new truths to me for whatever purpose this discussion is for, and I feel I am lead to leave, and not continue to accept the abuse, and yes it is that, that I have been suffering. I cannot believe that I let a bunch of people, who say they are Christians, beat me down so much. I have tried to stay strong, but it has been a public beheading for me, and I cannot take it any more. SJ & Tsth - You in particular have chosen to impose this allknowing, self righteous, manipulative, leading of questions to corner me and try and sematically trip me up. Well it hasn't worked. The only thing you have done is helped me to see that my calling is authentic and ordained by God. I cannot believe that some moderator hasn't stepped in to help this be a balanced discussion, not to mention fair. Sure you use nice, yet condescending comments, but all in all, you might have as well said what you really meant. (and sometimes did) It is obvious that you are stuck in your opinions and are bent on converting people to your school of thinking or to just condemn them to hell. If I have learned one thing on this board, is I have made friends, and I have enjoyed many discussions, but there are a few people who seem to come in on every discussion and make it turn ugly and accusatory. As you questioned my heart, convictions, motivations, calling, and Christianity; you have only allowed us to see a reflection of your own. I am a woman, who is called by God to preach the Good News to ALL people. And this calling is not of myself, but from God. I pray God will give you revelations in all of your lives, that you may see Jesus in eachother. I just pray for those who have left for the same reasons, and for those who are being persecuted right now in other discussions and this one. It has definitely gone too far, I think that the fruitfulness of this discussion was over a long time ago. Only for Jesus, Shelby

First I don't care if someone judges me because I know they aren't my judge. So I am not taking any of this personally, because though most of you, in the nicest way, think I am against God's word and a false teacher. SOOO I will bow out. I refuse to defend myself to any of you. I think we have really lost sight of a Holy Discussion. I am so tired ofd explaining and reexplaining over and over again. I am done. I am just tired of the same old argument, "It goes against God's Word!" Well you have shown me no more than 4 or 5 scriptures pertaining to this, and as I studied them in context, praying for discernment, I am comfortable with my belief. To compare me to a gay person, is just, well I can't find words strong enough. I am done. Have a wonderful life all of you. And I pray that God will open your mind and soften your heart.

Well, A couple things. I think it would be easier to read the entire thread than for me to dredge through all this again. Next, I feel no need to respond to your post. If you truly wanted to me explain myself better, you could have asked nicely. I did not side step anything. I answered the way I did in relation to the way I felt would answer your question. Once again, I believe that God has set an order, I don't believe we can take from the few scriptures used to discount the possibility that God could call, even a woman to be a minister. That is all I have to say to you. I have been through this too many times to put it all back on here. I am seeing that this discussion has gotten to a stagnate point. I think I have stated all I can, if you really want the answers to what I believe and why, just read the whole thread. I also am behind Keslc 100% so you can read hers as well to help understand better. There were threads in the past named the same that I also contributed to that state my position and conviction. ON A DIFFERENT NOTE: I would just like to say to those who disagree with me that God could and does call women to be ministers, that I am 100% confident that God spoke to my heart and has set my ENTIRE life on a path that was directed towards becoming an ordained minister. There is not other way it would have come about. This was nothing I sought out. God called, He is God, who am I to question His will for my life. I didn't just have a "feeling" that he called me, it is so much deeper, and to say that I might "feel called but really am not" is disrespectful, and not anyones place to judge my heart, or my motivation, or integrity. People assume that since I believe God can call a woman, that I am some actvist, if anything I am the opposite of a n activist. I am a wife, a submissive one. My husband met me when I was in seminary. He was not in seminary. I was ordained and sent to a church. Later we got married. He will eventually be going to the same seminary. He supports me and encourages me in my calling. UNDERSTAND - My calling is daily confirmed by God to me. He has given me a deep passion for the souls of the lost and for discipling those who know him already. Just as some of you try to convince, question, interrogate, and inquire about why those of us believe this way, to see it your way, God is using that to confirm my calling even more. I am delving more and more into scripture and prayer, and it has made me more secure in my calling. But as you question etc, I think the tone, and sometimes patronizing leading questions speak more towards your walk than to convict me of mine. Please take time to see that God is the ONLY judge. Sure we are told to help our fellow Christians, but we really don't know eachother on here. Just by select few posts. Enough of my rambling. Seriously, before you go and call me a liar and say that I have a fake calling, take time to check yourself.

No I believe that wives should submit to their husbands. I am married and understand how hard the task can be sometimes, but God is there always. I believe that God has set an order, I just don't believe we can take from the few scriptures used to discount the possibility that God could call, even a woman. He is able, to do much more than we could ever dream. And I don't believe that it would contradict his word. There were many women in the Bible who held leadership position.

This is what I said. I don't any decision should be made based on feeling. PLEASE lets not do the semantics thing. Also, I think that when the Bible is speaking in specific terms of men and women it is talking about the marriage relationship.

So if she has lived a life true to God and has avoided any "thrusts" into positions of authority, yet God leads her to Stand Up and follow his will to lead a congregation, or become a missionary, or she is by virtue of her witness given a position of authority...... Then what? She should turn it down? I appreciate your translation and bringing us the original texts, but when you put the definition I don't think it made sense with this context. I am trying to really hear what you are saying. IJN The hypothetical you offer is wrong though. You're asserting that God would go against His Word, thus in the hypothetical my answer is she thinks she's called but really isn't. Unless, of course, that authority position isn't over a man. Say............. Mother Theresa? She did look for fame, or anything, she was just following God with all her heart. Believe it or not she was in authority, by virtue of being a known 20th century icon. God did call her. Second, who says God went against his word. Your explanation just said that she shouldn't seek a position of authority, it didn't say God wouldn't choose that woman. I think we limit the interpretation of the Holy Spirit to our hearts because sometimes we become so legalistic. My hypothetical was directly from what I understand of your words... Do you get why I used that hyp.? I do believe that God would not contradict His word. I don't believe it is. I am comfortable and have learned much from this portion of scripture, and have prayed for God's true meaning and interpretation of it. I am very open for God to change my heart if he hasn't called me to be a minister. IF anything this has drawn me closer and solidified my calling. I think to say: Is not following other parts of scripture. Who's judge are you to say such a thing? Only God can judge a persons heart and motivation.

So if she has lived a life true to God and has avoided any "thrusts" into positions of authority, yet God leads her to Stand Up and follow his will to lead a congregation, or become a missionary, or she is by virtue of her witness given a position of authority...... Then what? She should turn it down? Even if she feels and knows that it is God calling her? I appreciate your translation and bringing us the original texts, but when you put the definition I don't think it made sense with this context. I am trying to really hear what you are saying. IJN

Deirdre, I do not blame what you "believe" on your age. I point out that your age has a factor in your RESPONSES and how you go about relaying your "opinions". But who are you to judge me? You don't know me, and God says to do this in love to your Brother or Sister in Christ. But it seems you don't feel I fall into that Category because.... I believe that the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God; and that they only constitute the divine rule of Christian faith and practice. They are breathed from God, and they are perfect as he is. The problem is, you are using your interpretation as "gospel" and taking a select few verses that were to specific people at a specific time regarding social and church issues then to condemn me. I do love those particular scriptures and God has definitely used them in my life. Particularily in my marriage. Here is your question. I will quote myself from above and from my last post, these are my answers. No, my post was in sincere care for you. I know what it is like to be a young married woman, not as young as you are, but I do know even at 23 it was very hard for me at the time. It seems you have been more confrontational (I was trying to be more discreet, I thought that was better) I don't remember you being so "matter-of-fact" and non compassionate to other person's understandings. I have just been suprised. It seems that you are a bit hostile in some of your posts. The tone doesn't seem that you are doing it in a loving Christian manor. I was used to your postings beforehand that were always uppety and gregarious. Sorry I wasn't trying to offend you, but it seems everything I say does. Absolutely nothing. I never said it did, I just stated what seemed to me to be the change in the tone of your posts. (ie. pre-marriage -vs- post-marriage) I can respect that you have an opinion. But I think that there is a difference between sharing your opinion, and contemptuosly condemning and judging people you don't know. You might have read some of my posts, but it seems you don't even "interpret" my posts correctly. These are very small excerpts that I choose to share. I just don't feel it is your position to judge. I am not offended, or hurt or anything though. I feel very comfortable with my understanding, which has been filtered through the Holy Spirit. In the end, I want to just sum up what I don't think you are understanding from my posts. I was truly concerned for you. I was suprised by the tone, so I was sincerely just gently encouraging you to take a self check. I have to do it often. There are those who encourage me to do the same sometimes too. It was not to offend you. Again, your marriage has nothing to do with this issue, I was just establishing the pivot where I saw change, and coming from experience, I felt for you. If God wanted/wants me to have a different understanding, then so be it. But it hasn't happened yet. I believe and know in my heart that God has breathed his understanding into me. God has had so many opportunities to change the path of my life, if it wasn't in His will for me to become an ordained minister. He didn't intervene. I believe and know HE ordained me, and gave me the passion to follow His will of leading the lost to Him and discipling those who are in Him. Only said in love, Shelby

You know Deirdre I do try to respond with love and understanding. I don't feel that you are acting in kind. You state such Judgemental "facts", and you question our integrity. I told you have been, as well as others on this forum, searching Gods Word on this particular subject for a LONG TIME. I think you stated how you really feel above. You seem to always get frustrated when I bring up your age but I feel that this particular post really shows what I mean. I don't take offense though, because I know what God called me to. I know that God has breathed into my heart and mind HIS understanding. Once again, I will not scripture pick. CONTEXT, CONTEXT, CONTEXT. Not to mention, we should take into consideration the whole, chapter, then book, and entire Bible when we are reading. I think to be so legalistic is to limit God's LIVING Word. Truly, I am quite comfortable with my standing with God. So why should you condemn? It is not your job, you can give Holy Discussion, but when you question someone, (especially whom you don't know) regarding their integrity, and relationship with God; reflects more on yourself. Take time to rest in your spirit. You will appreciate other opinions, and develop a greater understanding for God's people, and maybe, just maybe God will use this understanding to witness to your spirit. God bless you, I don't want to offend you, but it does seem to me you have changed lately. I remember you back in July before you got married, it seems you are a little bit restless in your spirit. Breathe sister. Marriage is hard, and if you don't see that now, you will in a few years. Take time for yourself. Bask in your unknown path (by you) and know that it is a daily surrendering and softening of your heart. In love, Shelby :hug:

Deirdre, It might be taken a little better if you would choose better words. No one is twisting scripture here. God will endow HIS understanding to HIS people. This is an issue between God and each person. This is not something that is necessary to Salvation, so God will speak to each one of us. To make such a remark "twisting scripture" is to judge and demean the integrity of those posting in opposition to you. You can have an opinion without disrespecting people as you state it. I am sure that you are confident in your position, and that is good, but instead of calling others blaphemers, see what God is teaching you through this. Either to solidify your current beliefs, or to possibly offer another view, ones of experience and deep study by those of us who have really searched the scriptures on this issue in particular. To get so bogged down by a subject that is not necessary to Salvation will only put barriers unless each of us opens our mind to see what God has spoken to our hearts on this and every subject. Most of us feel confident in our beliefs, that is why we are so comfortable coming on a discussion board. God bless!

Thanks Kate, clear as mudd. Just kidding. I gotcha, and I figured that is what you meant, I was just clarifying. I think all of the mandates regarding authority in the Bible are to help us to have a better view and perspective of God's authority. The same way having parents reiterates the love God has for us, we can relate (hopefully) to that type of relationship.