Jake for Jesus

"Yod" wrote to "Jake for Jesus": "Bridges for Peace" is a humanitarian organization. They help the poor. They help the homeless. They help those who need it. My Response: I know what "Bridges for Peace" is, and I also know they have signed papers and have in entered into an agreement to withhold the Gospel from the Jewish people. Yod wrote: The government of Israel has a law against proselytizing. That law was not written by Bridges for Peace. My Response: I know what the law is, and its only against proselytizing to be mixed with providing of humanitarian aid is all. Moreover, Christian humanitarian aid organizations in Israel are not asked or forced to sign papers entering into agreements to withold the Gospel to Jewish people or to anyone else in Israel. I do not agrue the work of valid evangelical organizations such as "Prayer for Israel" and "Christian Friends of Israel." They are both Christian and pro-Zionist. They are moderates, they are Christ-centric as opposed to Israel-centric, and are therefore biblically balanced in their approach. They stand for Israel's right to exist, warn of the dangers of Islam to Judeo/Christian civilization, and work to point the Church to back towards its Hebrew root. They do not, however, turn their backs on the local Israeli Body of Christ in order to placate Rabbis and to cultivate good relations with Israeli politicians. While these organizations are not evangelistic, they do stand with the Israeli Messianic believers in their quest to evangelize Israel, and the people in these organizatiions will often share their faith on a personal low key basis. My argument is with those organizations like the one you named "Bridges for Peace," which have agreed to withhold the gospel to the Jewish people, and also with those who in some cases taught against presenting it. Yod wrote: But they work within the parameters they have been given to show the love of Jesus. Have you ever heard the expression "Actions speak louder than words? Yes, their actions have spoken louder that words alright, when they signed papers entering into an agreement to withhold the Gospel from the Jewish people. That tells me they are only interested in trying to help the poor to be as comfortable as possible like mother Teresa did before they go to hell.

Parousia wrote to Shiloh: I am a born-again child of the living God, called out of darkness and brought into His wonderful light through the power of the Holy Spirit and on the basis of Jesus' shed blood. I would like to explain my position of why I believe the promises to national Israel have been fulfilled in the Church, but I don't think someone who makes such unfounded and horrible accusations is open to reason. I do not want to argue. I want to reason through the Scriptures without name calling and unfounded characterizations. If anyone else would like to hear my position, please post your questions. My Response: THE WISEST ONE . . . Please do share with us what you believe, and why you believe what you believe. I would be interested in hearing what you have to say.

Greetings in Jesus to all. This will let you know I have read all posts in this discussion, and I have come now to want to say this to you. Its true that Jews need to see a recognition by Christian believers of the prophetic significance of their nation, and of God's on going love for them as a people. I do not agrue that! I have long since been supportive of that. And will continue to be supportive of that. This must be done in order to mitigate the damage done by false Christians, and the anti-Israel preaching currently expounded by some. I know someone whose wife's parnets are Holocaust survivors, and she is a former refusnik under the communists. Her grandfather, and many of her family were murdered in the Holocaust. Yet his very Jewish wife who is a Christian believer will be the first to tell you that while it was a terrible tragedy, that false Christians murdered her grandfather in the name of Christianity, it is an even greater tragedy that when he died, he entered into eternity without knowing Jesus as his Messiah. The Word of God repeatedly makes it clear that if we do not warn the Jews, and others to repent, and accept Jesus, they will go to hell, but God will require their blood at our hands (Ezekiel 3:18, 19; Acts 18:6, 20:26). Some day there will be people who are going stand before the Judgement seat of Christ watching Jewish souls from whom they withheld the gospel, being cast into hell. Among these will be the Israeli politicians whose friendship they courted at the expense of not speaking about Jesus. In reading my posts, if it may would appear to you that I am angry. You need to now that my anger is directed toward no one but Satan, and is certainly not directed toward those sincere Christian believers who are being misled into thinking that this deception is of God, when the Word of God makes it clear that it has nothing to do with Him. Jesus said: "If you love Me, keep My commandments" (John 14:15). He commanded that we give the Jews the gospel. If is not enough to tell the Jews we love them, and that we recognize the prophetic place of their nation in God's plan, and to tell them no more for fear of offending them. The Apostle Paul said, "I have not shunned to declare to you [not avoided declaring] the whole counsel of God" (Acts 20:27). Christian Zionists preach only one aspect of God's purpose, and as a result TURN IT INTO A LIE.

Yod, this will let you know I read your post. Obviously, your aware of the fact that there are Christian organizations that have agreed to withhold the gospel to the Jewish people, and you don't care. Well, how can I help that? However, I will say this. If you don't see anything wrong with that now. You will by the end of this discussion, I can sure tell you that. For I am going to expose the lies of Christian Zionism.

I WILL REQUIRE THEIR BLOOD AT YOUR HANDS I am going to begin now to talk more about the errors of Christians Zionism. Some of these organizations repeatedly enter into agreements with the Israel government and various other Jewish authorities, which require that they agree not to present the gospel to Jewish people, but rather to consentrate on loving Jewish people with some love other than the love of Christ. A love for the Jews which fails to give Jews the gospel of Jesus Christ, is not the love of Christ. It is a fleshly infatuation with Jews. The Jewish people are perishing without their Messiah. Nazis sent Jews to gas chambers, but Chrisrtian Zionism, by withholding the gospel from Jews, are in effect sending them to hell. Please do not misunderstand. It is not my purpose to judge or condemn individuals, only to condemn the false doctrines of any organization which is in rebellion against the Word of God ---- and leading others into that rebellion. For example, it was at first shocking to me to have learned that some years ago. That the International Christian Embassy in Jerusalem, and other organizations like it, had often counted good relations with right wing Israeli politicians and rabbinic authorites who are responsible for anti-missionary laws in Israel. Even more shocking was to have learned the International Christian Embassy some years ago published a mission statement with a covering letter explaining its position on non-evangelization of Jews. It claimed to fulfill Isaiah chapter 40 by comforting Israel, telling Israel that her iniquity is removed --- without telling Israel the gospel message which is the only biblical way her iniquity can be removed. To say the sin of Israel can be removed without the blood of Jesus ---- the Jewish Messiah ---- is a blasphemous hersesy known as "dual covenant theology." Respectfully, Jacob

Greetings in Jesus to all. I am going to expose the errors of Christian Zionism in this discussion. But before I do I want to first share this with you so my posts will be not misunderstood by anyone. When the Devil is unable to blind Christians to the prophetic purposes of God concerning Israel and the Jews, his next deception is to divert Christians into errors of Christian Zionism. I would preface matters by pointing out that there are valid evangelical organizations such as "Pray for Israel" and "Christian Friends of Israel" which are both Christian and pro-Zionist. They are moderates, Christ-centic as opposed to Israel-centric, and therefore biblically balanced in their approach. They stand for Israel's right to exist, warn of dangers of Islam to Judeo/Christian civilization, work to point the Christian church back towards it Hebrew root. They do not, however, turn their backs on the local Body of Christ in order to placate the Rabbis and cultivate good relations with Israeli politicians. While these organizations will are not evangelistic, they do stand with the Israeli Messianic believers in their quest to evangelize Israel, and the people of these oganizations will often share their faith on a personal low key basis. Now, I want to make this very clear that my argument is with only with those organizations which have agreed to withhold the gospel to the Jewish people, and in some cases have even taught against presenting it. Respectfully, Jacob

"Other One" wrote: What makes you think that more Jews will accept the anti Christ than the rest of the world. My Response: Thank you for your post. Perhaps you may have misread my post. I had not intended to give the impression that more Jews would accept the Antichrist than any body else would, when he does finally emerge on the world stage. "Other One" wrote: . . . . remember the above verse that "ALL" Israel will be saved, and that does not sound like they will all be punished and condemned. My Response: Of course, I realize not all Christians are of the same theology. For my part, I respect the veiws of others that may be different from my own. Based on what I see in Romans 11:26 Paul looks forward a to time when "all Israel will be saved." However, I do not take that to mean that all Jews will be saved, no more than all Gentiles will be saved. Just as not all Gentiles will be saved, not all Jews will be either. In light of what Paul has said previously in the same chapter about the remnant, Paul seems to makes clear that the "all Israel" who will be saved will be the remnant who God has chosen and reserved for Himself by His grace. To some others who have posted in response to my post. Thank you also for your posts. I am wanting to respond to your posts also, and I will later as I come to have more time to be able to do so. Respectfully, Jacob

GOD's TRUE PURPOSE FOR ISRAEL IS SALVATION I am just curious as to how many of you here who may be sincere, devoted followers of Jesus that may have be deceived to believe the lies of Christian Zionism? And in particular the lie that the Jews are being re-gathered to their anicent land today to be blessed? The Jews are not being re-gathered to their ancient land to be blessed. They are being re-gather to their ancient land to face a terrible judgment is why they are being re-gathered --- known in Jeremiah 30 as the time of Jacob's trouble (the Great Tribulation) in which they will be deceived into thinking the Antichrist is their Messiah (John chapter 5:43). I am just curious as to how many have been told that there is a blessing for Jews apart from Jesus? If you have been told that. It is a lie! There is no blessing for the Jews apart from Jesus. The Jews are under the curse of the law, as Paul plainly states in Roman and Galatians (see Deuteronomy 27:26; Galatians 3:10-11; Romans 2:12, 3:19-20, 4:13-15). As the Bible teaches, the law of God is indeed perfect (Psalm 19:8; 119; Romans 4:13-15), but it brings an indictment against all mankind for their sins. Yet because the Jews were specifically chosen to bring the world the revelation of God, the indictment falls upon them first (Exodus 17:8, 16; Deuteronomy 25:17-19). For reasons of how some here have reacted to my posts on this bulletion board during the short time I have been here, in attempts to misrepresent me to others and the things I say, and to criticize me. I have now come to want to probe to see more of just what kind of Christianity you have here. Jacob

Shiloh --- I don't get offended. I am too old. I quit doing that a long time ago. Your the one who is offended, and you are very easily offended. Therefore, I think it better for you and I, to have no further discussion on this bulletion board. And we will not after I finish making this post. For I am going to put you on my ignore list. Jacob

Shiloh wrote: I doubt you are accurately representing your "spiritual father." My Response: My spiritual father has since passed on to be with the Lord, and to have finished his course here. He was a great man, and was considered by many as being one of the top thinkers of the church in his day. Normally, I don't talk about myself, and things of this nature with others. However, for reasons of this snide remark you made which probably may would have been better if I were to have just ignored. I will let you know this: Only, just a few days ago. I had spoken to some members of his family, who are aware of the Lord's work that I am involved with. And I was told that my passion and commitment to the Lord is a real tribute to him. Finally, I want to now say this to you. If you really are what you profess to be? Walk like you talk in having made this profession of faith in Christ and the Bible. Jacob

Ted, this will let you know that I read your post! Thank you, for your interest in this topic of our discussion, and for your post. I will gave give my answer to the question I had asked Mark in my last post. Let us turn back now to the definition of faith given in Hebrews 11:1 and note one other important fact about faith. Faith is "the evidence of things not seen," or a sure conviction concerning things not seen. This shows that faith deals with things not seen. Therefore we know that Faith is not based on the evidence of our physical senses but on the eternal , invisible truths and realities revealed by God's Word. I find that saint Paul brings out this contrast between the objects of faith and the objects of sense perception when he says, "For we walk by faith, not by sight" (2 Corinthians 5:7). In this passage I came to see that faith is contrasted with sight. Sight, along with the other phyiscal senses, being related to objects of the physical world. Faith being related to the truths revealed in God's Word which are invisible, eternal and unchanging. However, if we were carnally minded, we would accept only that which our senses reveal to us. But if we are spiritually minded, our faith makes the truths of God's Word more real than anything which our senses may reveal to us. We do not base our faith on that which we see or experience; we base our faith on God's Word. Thereafter, that which we see or experience is the outcome of that we have already believed. Therefore we know that biblical Christian faith, is based solely on God's Word. Just to help further our discussion, I am now going to ask a question. If you can accept what I have been sharing with you, we should come to be able to see that in spiritual experience sight comes after faith, not before it. Can you give us any spiritual examples of this in scripture? Be blessed, brother. Jacob

EricH --- go to www.carm.org And do a search! You will find it! By the way, my spiritual father, and the person who helped me most in my early walk with God, was Greek Scholar and quailfied to teach Greek on the university level. He was a Bible expositor engaged in unfolding primary doctrine, and this I how I first came to know this. But that was a good many years ago. Now that you have some real interest in searching this out. I don't believe you will have much problem doing so on the net. Any way, I am glad your attitude is such that you would want to seek it out. You are apparently more interested in what is true, not in just wanting to be right. I wished more of us could be like you!

Shiloh wrote to Erich: Thank you EricH!! Right on! My Response: Sorry, no offense, ERich, but you are both in error. You guys need to get you a good Theological dictionary! Of course, dictionaries are great tools. However, Theological dictionaries are even better tools! The following I had taken from "Christian Research & Apologetic Ministries" Theological dictionary today: Justify, Justification means to be made righteous. It is a divine act where God declares the sinner to be innocent of his sins. It is not that the sinner is now sinless, but that he is "declared" sinless. This justification is based on the shed blood of Jesus. ". . . having now been justified by His blood . . ." (Rom. 5:9) When God sees the Christian, He sees him through the sacrfice of Jesus and "sees" him without sin. This declaration of innocent is not without cost for it required the satisfaction of God's law. ". . . without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness" (Heb.9:22). The justification, the justice of God fell upon Himself -- Jesus. We receive mercy -- we are not judged according to our sins. And grace is shed upon us -- we receive eternal life. This justification is a gift of grace (Rom. 3:24), by faith (Rom, 3:28) because Jesus bore our guilt (Isaiah 53:12). By the way, I found it interesting that the theological dictionary opens even by first stating just exactly what I have been saying you which we said read above '' to be justified is to be made righteous."

Shiloh wrote: Well so far, I have proven that I am not misunderstanding anything. I simply demonstrated that impute and impart do not mean the same thing despite your insistance that they did. You accused me of confusing justification and redemption, and I demonstrated that I understand both. Fiosh is right, you came on here acting all superior, like you are going to straighten us out. It is your pride that is offended. My Response: Shiloh, look at what you wrote in only some five short lines? I have proven . . . . I simply demonstrated . . . . You accused me . . . . I demonstrated . . . . I understand both . . . . Well, what is that? Ego? And you want to talk to me about pride? Just curious as to how well do you think you know yourself?

Shiloh wrote: Well you wanted to discuss the Bible didn't you? So I discussed it. Instead, you keep trying to accuse me of misunderstanding what is impossible to misunderstand or misconstrue. My Response: You to ever misunderstand or miscontrue any thing? You? No, never, I think you just like to agrue.