ValiantForTruth

If we toss the book of Luke, then did both robbers cast the same in his teeth, or only one? How do you know? (remember you tossed the book of Luke). VFT

opou auton estaurosan kai met autou allous duo enteuthen kai entueuthen meson de ton iesous "....and with him others two on either side..." "enteuthen kai entueuthen" occurs only two times in the Bible, here and Rev.22:2, and is translated "on either side" both places. VFT

Not one critical Greek Text contains the word "one" in John 19:18. VFT

Not one critical Greek Text contains the word "one" in John 19:18. VFT

Sorry, if misrepresented your words. I thought I used them correctly. And, I was not yelling. Just trying to give a little emphasis, but not yelling. I'll try italicized words or color next time. Thanks for the heads-up. You asked, "What applicable truth or precept of Christian faith is preserve or further enlighten by it being 4 instead of 2?

With all due respect, why then is it in their if it means nothing? This means "nothing" too? Since you disagree with every Gk-Interlinear, I'm guessing you are writing your own? I've looked at several and they all say the same thing. I guess if these Greek words and phrases mean "nothing" it would stand to reason that it's "not a big deal" - sorry you feel that way. But a false doctrine? I'm not asking anyone to quit reading their Bibles. I'm not asking anyone to rail on Jesus, or denounce him. I'm not promoting "another Jesus". What qualifies this as a "false doctrine"? It certainly cannot be because it is not Biblically based. Happy New Year! VFT

Much, if not all of the theory of there being 4 others crucified with Christ seems to hinge upon the verbiage of verse 38 in Mathew. Is Matthew saying that after Jesus was nailed to the cross they

It says "kai entuethen"....that means "and the one on each side" or close to that effect. It does NOT say "one". The English word "one" is in [brackets] meaning it has been added - that's what the [brackets] mean. It has been put in [brackets] to show that it has been added because it has is no corresponding Greek Word. "enteuthen kai enteuthen" means "on either side." duo means "two." The text actually says, "duo enteuthen kai enteuthen" which means "two on either side." VFT

...To the TRUTH. John 8:31-32 31) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. There is more written in the Bible about the last week of Jesus' life than any other topic in the Bible. Why do you suppose that is? I'll tell you why. It is because EVERYTHING leads to the RESURRECTION. Romans 10:9 9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Without a belief in the resurrection, someone is going to be left behind. And I do not want that. Any questions that go unanswered are stumbling blocks to believing in the resurrection of our Lord and Savior. When "seekers" ask how you get 3 days and 3 nights from Friday to Sunday, and do not get the truth - they stumble. When the seeker asks how 2 theives rebuke Jesus in one record, and then only one rebukes Jesus in another record, and do not know why - they stumble. Any number of questions on the subject left unanswered are stumbling blocks. And if they stumble enough times, they eventually may fall and decide it's not worth getting up. I do not want that anymore than you do. THE TRUTH SHALL ABSOLUTELY MAKE YOU FREE. What is wrong with wanting to know the TRUTH? How does this hurt anyone? If nothing else, it shows the perfection of the scriptures that is available when a person not only reads the scriptures, but studies them. Maybe you do not need to know that there were 4 crucified with Christ, maybe you do. Maybe you do not need to know the timing of Jesus death and resurrection, but maybe you do. Maybe you do not need to know, but there may be a person who is hung-up on one of these questions to the end that he/she is hindered from putting it all together in their heart and soul. Who is to say what TRUTH someone needs to hear to believe? Romans 10:17 17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. For me, these details took me from the "yes I believe I guess" category, into the "PRAISE GOD, IT'S TRUE, IT REALLY HAPPENED...LORD I BELIEVE!!!" category. It also points me to the scriptures when I have a question, instead of somewhere else. I do not bring "another" doctrine. Just assurance of the one that we are all here to share, that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him from the dead, and that because of this great love, I will live forever in the greatest family of all, the family of God. Davi, You can speak whatever you want! I certainly won't stop you. But if it contradicts the scriptures, you will get a response from me, or anyone else if we recognise it as such. This is a two-way street, ie. I would expect a response also. It would not be loving NOT to respond. If you knew there was a bridge out ahead, wouldn't you warn everyone you could so that they could avoid any harm? Of course you would. Speaking the truth of the Word of God is no different! None of us are perfect. And no one knows it all. But by the grace of God we have the ability to learn, and I want to know all the truth that I can. This subject regarding the events of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ just happen to thrill my soul. Sorry if I have been unable to transfer any of that excitement your way. Love in Christ, Don I am "ValiantForTruth"

Ouch! THEN, maybe you could help me understand why I should not believe there were 4 ? And we haven't even considered the evidence from the Gospel of John. Lets take a look. John 19:17,18 17) And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha: 18) where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus and the midst. Now this appears to support tradition, UNTIL we take a closer look. These verses are quoted from the KJV. The KJV was translated from the Stephens Greek Text. There are Greek-English Interlinear Books of the NT on the market that show the Greek on one line and the corresponding English words on another line. This is the English part of Interlinear. John 19: 18 where him they crucified, and with him, others two on this side and on that side [one], and in the middle Jesus. Notice that the word "one" is in brackets. In the interlinear there is a corresponding Greek word for all the English words EXCEPT the word "one". When there is no corresponding Greek word, the english word is put in brackets to indicate that the translators added the word "one". The translators are telling us that they ADDED the word "one" in verse 18. Now go back to the verse and read the verse without the word "one". John 19:18 where him they crucified, and with him others, two on this side and on that side, and in the middle Jesus. . . . . "two on this side and on that side". There were two on one side of Jesus Christ and two on the other side of Jesus Christ. Two plus two equals four. Do you have a NT Gk-English Interlinear? Look it up! The word "one" never appeared in any Critical Greek texts. So why is it in the King James Version? Because by 1611 the Western world had become so indoctrinated by pictures showing Jesus Christ on the center cross with one evil doer on each side of him, that when they were translating this particular verse in John, THEY INSERTED THE WORD "ONE" to agree with established traditional beliefs. And in their defense, they told us they added the word. Their error was not italicizing the word one in the KJV (which they also normally did). If you still have doubts..... keep reading. John 19:32,33 32) Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. 33) But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: ...Thief..-->..Malefactor..-->..JESUS....Malefactor....Thief... Do you see the simplicity of this example? If we believe TRADITION, the soldiers would have to have broken the legs of the thief, THEN THEY WOULD HAVE TO WALK PAST JESUS to break the legs of the second thief. Then the soldiers came back to Jesus, and said to themselves, "He is dead already" so they did not break his legs. This scenario is not only illogical, it is senseless. The Word of God clearly states that they broke the legs of the first and of the other which was crucified with Jesus and THEN they came to Jesus. So do you believe the scriptures? or do you believe tradition? The scriptures are CLEAR. Two malefactors were crucified with him, one on each side. Later, two thieves were also crucified with him, one on either side, making 2 on either side with Jesus in the middle. Both theives cast the same in his teeth. But only one of the malefactors railed on him, the other did not. Then they broke the legs of the one, then of the other, but when they arrived at Jesus, he was already dead so that they did not have to break his legs (fulfilling a prophecy about his bones not being broken). VFT

What is your opinion based on? Tradition, or scripture? I have no doubt that is true, but what does the scriptures say about this day in particular? Why? (a simple question) My question has nothing to do with The Way, International. Apparently you have some problems with that group. That is between you and them. I simply asked a question. 2 or 4 ? It is in the Bible. Why then is it a moot point? Do you not like my question? Why? What about three days and three nights, maybe that isn't important either. Maybe it was only 3 days and 2 nights, or maybe 2 days and 2 nights, what difference does it make, ... maybe we are save by grace, maybe works, maybe both, mabye neither.... Where does it end? The Word cannot be broken. It's either 2 or 4 not both. If it's 2, why? If it's 4, why? If it doesn't matter, then who needs a Bible to know God? It's a simple question, with a simple answer. The point is do we believe tradition, or scripture? Which one has the most authority? VFT

I agree, the scriptures do not lie. But if your explanation is correct, then how do you account for the fact that TWO malefactors were LED WITH HIM, and they crucified one on either side. ...Malefactor...JESUS...Malefactor... THEN, AFTER they crucified them, they offered Jesus vinegar, parted his garments, cast lots, sat down and watched him, got permission for a sign, made the sign, hung it up. AFTER ALL THAT - which takes time - THEN they crucified TWO THIEVES, one on either side. How can this be referring to the SAME two who were led with him? Scriptures tell us that both Thieves railed on him, ...Thief...Malefactor...JESUS...Malefactor...Thief... but only one Malefactor cast the same in his teeth, the other did not. ...Thief...Malefactor...JESUS...Malefactor...Thief... Both Thieves cast the same in his teeth One Malefactor railed on Jesus, the other did not. Why should I believe your explanation? How does tradition support scripture? VFT

How many rebuked Jesus? Matthew 27:39-44 39) And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, 40) And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. 41) Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, 42) He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. 43) He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God. 44) The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. Luke 23:39-43 39) And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40) But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41) And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Timing ...... (when were they crucified?) Luke 23:26 26) And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus. 27) And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. 28) But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. 29) For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. 30) Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. 31) For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry? 32) And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death. 33) And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. Matthew 27:33-38 33) And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull, 34) They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink. 35) And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots. 36) And sitting down they watched him there; 37) And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS. 38) Then [after all that] were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left. TWO were led with him, TWO more came later. TWO railed on him, and of the other two, ONE railed and ONE did not. VFT