godrulz

oldshep: JW's New World Translation is sectarian and changes most of the Deity of Christ verses (e.g. Jn. 1:1; Jn. 8:58, etc.). One that they have not changed is Jn. 20:28. It is true that JWs cannot call Jesus 'the God of me, the Lord of me' like Thomas did. This is the main issue with JWs (Deity of Christ), while LDS issue is polytheism vs monotheism (they actually teach that Jesus is Jehovah and the Father is Elohim, two separate gods).

I used to think that Jesus did not know in His humanity, but this is problematic. I now think that the date was not fixed in the first century and that the Father would bring it to pass in the future. At that point, the Son would know.

String theory is speculative and probably wrong. Quantum mechanics/chaos theory actually supports Open Theism vs determinism. I had the same problem when I tried to figure out eternal now, God knowing the future, time travel in sci-fi movies, etc. The problem was that it was incoherent, wrong, confusing. When I found a biblical, logical, coherent view, I could understand and had a eureka moment. The lights came on. I have tried to merge it with tradition, but this will not work, since one is correct and the other is not. I have tried to undermine my new view or try to prove the classic view, but I cannot since I am convinced that it is more true, less problematic than other views. Most people do not think critically about these things, so they just spout traditional statements without really being able to defend them (begging the question). openlycurious: God knows reality as it is. The past does not actually exist, but is known perfectly in God's memory. The future does not actually exist, but is anticipatory. If an agent vs God settles the future (players play the future Superbowl), it cannot be an actual object of knowledge since the game does not exist until freely played in the present by actual people. God cannot just see the future when there is nothing there yet to see. The things that He intends to bring to pass or that He is able to predict are seen in His imagination, not in actuality like the present is. God expected good grapes from Israel, but was disappointed when they produced sour ones. He said creation was very good and knew of the possibility of the Fall, but was genuinely grieved when it happened because there was no good reason for it to happen. This genuine chronology in the heart and mind of God is dismissed as figurative, without warrant, to retain a preconceived, wrong view. Take it at face value and a more biblical, beautiful picture of an omnicompetent God emerges. It takes a greater God to bring His purposes to pass without controlling people like robots. Free will, love, relationship introduces self-imposed limitations on God, but for a higher good. He can mitigate all risk and contingency, but does not always get His way (some go to hell; evil abounds, etc.). He will triumph over evil and bring justice in the end, but it is a false Calvinistic view to assume that everything is God's will for a higher good. There is no good in a person raping and killing a baby. He allows it to happen, but does not desire or intend it. He could intervene, but He does not always. A paradigm shift is needed if we are to represent God as He has revealed Himself (timelessness cannot be defended from Scripture, but every page screams of God acting in succession, sequence, duration/time).

That is a grotesque oversimplification of foreknowledge. Who says God ever changed the future??? So what?? Actually, chess is played based on knowing the future moves of your opponent. Good chess players think 15 or more move ahead. The ability to be able to anticipate how your opponent will respond is an essential skill in chess. To act like you don't need that skill goes against everything they teach when it comes to learning the game. I play chess. Future moves are anticipatory, not actual, contingent, not settled. The player's strategy does include planning and thinking ahead, but it is ultimately a response to each actual move out of 1000s of possible combinations. If a person makes a mistake on move 3, the person would not stick to the same plan of a different scenario. A person can move out of character or do so many other things. They do think ahead, but the unfolding reality will be responsive depending on what the opponent actually does. Winning depends on intelligence and responsiveness, not actually knowing 15 moves ahead (impossible; the only way to know what the actual moves were was after they have been played; anticipation is not actual/certain, but possible/probable). God is responsive by His intelligence and ability. Since exhaustive foreknowledge would fix the future, it offers no providential advantage because God could not change it even if He wanted to (would make His FK wrong). http://www.revivaltheology.net/9_openness/chess.html At least understand this correctly if you are going to reject it.

because he lives in you..... OK - how about before the giving of the Spirit living in us? Remember he has no time constraints..... he knew you 6,000 years ago... and I'll bet it made him smile Remember when he had finished creation and said that it was good. He knew you then. This is incoherent and unnecessary. You did not exist 6000 years ago. If your parents never freely mated, you would not exist and be known. The Psalmist talks about present knowledge of God seeing the real you in the womb. Time has no constraints is an uncritically accepted assumption leading to wrong conclusions. Time is unidirectional, even for God. Jesus is not on the cross perpetually and creation precedes Second Coming, even for God. Every page of the Bible shows God's history, His Story, chronological dealing with men in real, unfolding space-time history. Timelessness is an unbiblical, philosophical error. Take it away, and our view of omniscience becomes more coherent, biblical. Timelessness is not unbiblical. Time does not exist in Heaven. As humans, we don't understand timelessness,and its actually more difficult to understand omniscience without it, rather than easier. Imagine a place without time, like heaven. Everything that is to come God has already seen take place;thats how He knows what will happen, or at least its easier to understand how He knows. The Book of Revelation relating to heaven and the eternal state does mention time in eternity (half hour of silence, years, days, etc.). Rev. 1:4 also uses tensed expressions about God. He has a history, His Story. Timelessness is a Platonic philosophical concept and is far more problematic than the endless time Hebraic concept.

The way Mormon missionaries are taught and work together on a mission means that virtually none have ever been converted/persuaded away from their beliefs. You can plant seeds that the Spirit will bear fruit later when they are off their mission. If and when they cannot answer you, they will bear their testimony. They are also likely aware of some of your counter-cult arguments. The main issue is their polytheism/plurality of gods (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and Bruce McConkie's Mormon Doctrine) vs Judeo-Christian monotheism. The Book of Mormon actually does not have unique LDS teaching. There are so many issues one could talk about, but the polytheism is the main reason they are a cult (they have a different gospel and a different Jesus 2 Cor. 11:4; Jude 3; Gal. 1:6-10). A legit concern is that you may be vulnerable to their sales pitch and demonic deception. If you are not strong personally and doctrinally, it is not worth risking your soul/salvation (they have some success proselytizing Christians, even scholarly, strong ones). If there is any chance of this, give them literature and don't continue engaging them. www.utlm.org is comprehensive. Be aware that their FARMS and FAIR ministries try to give a Mormon apologetic against us. The arguments may sound good on the surface, especially to a Mormon, but they have been refuted (the Word is truth and they are believing a cultic lie). Mind control is another issue. They are indoctrinated into a cult and spiritually blind. They would risk loosing family ties, jobs, etc., so you may win a Bible argument, but not be able to set them free from the mind control/spiritual deception (need prayer and exit counselling). Steve Hassan (former Moonie) Combatting Cult Mind Control is helpful for these issues. There is no end to books and websites that will give you info and strategy. They are a mission field at our doorstep, so let us pray and plant seeds trusting the Spirit to set them free (2 Timothy 2:24-26).

I am suddenly reminded of Ecclesiastes 12: 12 ... Of making many books there is no end, and much study wearies the body. 13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole [duty] of man. 14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil. It is the glory of a king to search out a matter (Proverbs). There is merit to a right understanding of God and His ways and a hindrance in apologetics, evangelism, and our relationship with God to misunderstand Him and His ways. The area of providence has practical implications for the problem of evil, prayer, suffering, counselling, evangelism, etc. We should desire to know God and His Word accurately, even if it takes some work. Too many reject a wrong view of God and His Word or impugn His character and ways with bad theology (Calvinism, for e.g.).

Where do you get these ideas? Time is not a piece of string that can be bent. It is relative to observers, but not objectively (one minute is one minute regardless of subjective perception). Time is not a created thing, but a concept of duration experienced by the eternal triune God in His relations. God is not bound by time just because He experiences it. He is omniscient and omnipresent and can hear billions of prayers all at once in the present. He is not hearing prayers from a 1000 years ago and 10 days into the future all at once. He remembers all past prayers, hears all present prayers, and anticipates that there will be future prayers though He does not hear what is not existing yet (if the person is praying, future prayers are not heard/known until they are made from potential to actual). God can multitask. He can hear and answer my prayer today and hear and answer an African's prayer today. He is not finite and limited to one location, but this does not mean He is experiencing the past/present/future in one eternal now simultaneity. Being timeless is not necessary to answer prayers if you are omnipotent and omniscient. Crystal ball foreknowledge of the future is also not necessary nor desirous. If He foreknew the future, He could not change it or respond to believing prayer because it would be fixed/unchangeable (to change it would make His foreknowledge false). Hezekiah and all Bible prayers show God responding in real space time AFTER the prayer with no hint of a need for prescience in order to answer it. I can make a chess move and win the game based on past/present knowledge. Future knowledge of all moves are not necessary if I am intelligent and responsive. Knowing future moves would be like cheating and make me less capable.

Time is more fundamental than space. Time marches on even if we do not measure it (the subjective measures of time should not be confused with objective time itself). Endless time is more coherent than timelessness.Just because there was no clocks, moons, suns, etc. before creation, does not mean there was no duration/succession/sequence in God's triune relations (otherwise, creation is co-eternal with God). God must think, act, feel in sequence, even apart from creation. It is a myth that time is created or limited to creation. The temporal measures of time were created, but the concept has always been an aspect of an eternal God's experience (without limiting Him). http://www.revivaltheology.net/9_openness/eternity.html Try this on for size....

Really? Not according to God's Word... Ex 3:14 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. KJV Deut 33:27a 27 The eternal God is your refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms; NKJV Ps 90:2 2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. NKJV Rev 4:8 8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying: "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!" NKJV So if in the beginning of His Word and in the middle of His Word and even right unto the end of His Word says The God of the Bible is without beginning and without end... Oh also He Warns-Rev 22:19 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. NKJV Love Steven Endless time, not timelessness. Thx for proving my point with tensed verses about God's eternality. He is without beginning and end, yet that does not mean He is timeless (incoherent and contrary to every page of Scripture that shows Him experiencing succession/succession/endless duration).

1 John 3 20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart and knoweth all things. I'm going to take this scripture by faith. God created a tree of knowledge (good and evil), so if He can create knowledge He is all knowing. Humans trying to figure out what God knows is like monkeys trying to figure out how we build cars. A verse about God knowing our hearts totally (past/present knowledge) cannot be extrapolated to defend exhaustive definite foreknowledge of future free will contingencies (omniscience issue). Likewise, the verse that says that all things are possible with God is in a context of salvation and cannot be extrapolated to mean that He can create square circles (relates to omnipotence). Your 'faith' becomes presumption and error if you misuse Scripture to beg the question about your own wrong views. In the seventh or eighth dimension he may well be able to create square circles..... Outside the fourth dimension you may well have already decided to get up late tomorrow.... You have some very rigid views and I don't think they are as nearly as definite as you seem to express...... but that's my personal opinion and you're certainly owed the same privilege. This is speculative, nonsensical. Why reject a defensible view from Scripture and logic and cling to a wrong view based on sci-fi?!

1 John 3 20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart and knoweth all things. I'm going to take this scripture by faith. God created a tree of knowledge (good and evil), so if He can create knowledge He is all knowing. Humans trying to figure out what God knows is like monkeys trying to figure out how we build cars. A verse about God knowing our hearts totally (past/present knowledge) cannot be extrapolated to defend exhaustive definite foreknowledge of future free will contingencies (omniscience issue). Likewise, the verse that says that all things are possible with God is in a context of salvation and cannot be extrapolated to mean that He can create square circles (relates to omnipotence). Your 'faith' becomes presumption and error if you misuse Scripture to beg the question about your own wrong views.

The issue is corporate vs individual predestination/election. God predestines and foreknows that He will have a people for Himself, Israel and the Church. Which individuals eventually become part of this group are not foreknown/predestined. We know the schedules of flights far in advance. The flight is predestined to go from NY to LA next year. As to who buys a ticket, does not die or get sick or cancel, who is not late and misses the flight, who changes to another earlier/later flight, etc. is not predestined. All who board the actual plane in a year a part of the flight group that fulfills the foreknowledge/predestination. Election is corporate, conditional, in Christ. Calvinists proof text these verses as individual election to retain TULIP, a flawed view. Critics of Open Theism are generally Calvinistic and would argue the same basic way against Arminians. The ones I have read often misunderstand and misrepresent the Open View (straw man attack).

There are philosophical truths not dealt with explicitly by Scripture that are relevant to the debate. Open Theism's strength is its hermeneutic and biblical basis (your view must make many verses figurative that can be taken at face value if you change the view). Some issues will not be resolvable by a proof text and relate to paradigms (determinism vs free will, etc.). We agree that God is sovereign, but the evidence favours providential sovereignty, not meticulous control (esp. relating to problem of evil). www.gregboyd.org exegetes many proof texts and objections. It is not fair to say there is no biblical support for it just because I am not regurgitating 30 years of my research on a non-academic forum.

Shiloh, like other anti-Open Theists you show that you misunderstand and misrepresent the view. I have given food for thought and disagree with your responses. You underestimate the greatness of God (in a non-Calvinistic view) and understanding of Open Theism by making your first statement that God is as ignorant of the future as we are. This is not true in reality nor as academic Open Theism teaches. To call a biblical, coherent view 'junk' shows your lack of engagement with this important debate. Assuming that Arminian or Calvinistic views are the only views worth interacting with is myopic.

Hallelujah~! He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite. The LORD lifteth up the meek: he casteth the wicked down to the ground. Psalms 147:4-6 This shows that God has infinite wisdom and can think intelligently to the nth degree. It also is consistent with Him knowing the past and present exhaustively. It does not prove or disprove the issue of exhaustive definite foreknowledge of future free will contingencies. There is not verse that says that God knows all of the future because it is not a logical statement in a non-deterministic universe.

This is interesting..... I think I see where you are coming from. Are you, for instance, suggesting that God's foreknowledge is less "crystal ball knowledge" (to use human terminology) and more "I will bring it to pass" and therefore because what God WILLS must always OCCUR, then he knows what will come to pass because he knows what He wills WILL happen - if you follow me! That is not in any way to detract from the conditions that sometimes accompany God's will in relation to humanity. He has given humanity freedom to choose and does not IMPOSE his will on us. Although I must admit that I get stumped right here because humanity's freedom to choose and God's will seem to be at odds with one another. He WILLS all men to be saved, but we know that because we have freedom of choice not all men will be saved. So in that instance, God does not "bring to pass" His will. Hmmm...... Also, if there is a concept of "it is finished" as Jesus said from the cross, then there cannot be an eternal "now". Perhaps such misunderstanding is what gives us the R.C. Mass - the continual re-offering of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. Or have I entirely misunderstood the thrust of your reasoning and am just tying myself up in knots? You are on the right track, but still combining contradictory views to some degree. Arminian simple foreknowledge is not explainable, just assumed (begging the question). It is like a crystal ball where God sees the future (prescience) like a person watching a bank robbery unfold (hence free will retained). The problem is that the future is not there to see yet. It is a blank if one attempts to look at it. It is becoming reality moment by moment. If it is there to see, then the free agents are not actualizing it (contingencies may or may not happen and are not settled/certain until the choice is made by the agent). This would also lead to the future being fatalistically fixed, so the providential God could not change it even if He wanted to (it would make His foreknowledge false). The reason your head is spinning is because you are being forced to accept a traditional view that is not coherent and does not make sense and cannot be explained. The same happens when we watch back to the future sci-fi shows (time travel is a logical absurdity). Is. 46 and Is. 48 says exactly what you have concluded. The reason God can declare and know some vs all of the future is because of His ability to bring it to pass (vs crystal ball). Read the chapters carefully. It is about ability, not foreknowledge (idols don't have ability). It is also wrong to assume because God declares specific prophecies like the First and Second Coming of Christ and judgments that He is fixing and predestining all things, including what you eat and wear (nope). So, Open Theism affirms the predestination/foreknowledge verses, but ALSO the unsettled/open verses (which the closed view must make figurative to retain their flawed view). There are two motifs that will lead to no head spinning: God settles/predestines/knows some of the future, but other aspects involving creaturely freedom, He leaves open/unsettled, and thus known as possible/probable vs actual/certain (until choices made in the present). The potential future becomes the fixed past through the present. Eternal now is the wrong view. Endless time, time being unidirectional, etc. will lead to the right view. God's will can be resisted/rejected (Lk. 7:30; Matthew 23:37). Calvinism is wrong to make God omnicausal instead of omnicompetent, to elevate hyper-sovereignty and to deny libertarian free will. Molinism is another possibility, but middle knowledge, etc. is highly philosophical, incoherent, essentially deterministic despite the claims to support free will. www.opentheism.info

1 John 3 20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart and knoweth all things. I'm going to take this scripture by faith. God created a tree of knowledge (good and evil), so if He can create knowledge He is all knowing. Humans trying to figure out what God knows is like monkeys trying to figure out how we build cars. You are not using faith, but presumption. The context shows that he knows all things in relation to something specific, our hearts (present knowledge; past knowledge). Other principles/passages/thinking would bring in limitation as to the extent of his future knowledge. Your view cannot be based on one verse out of context that contradicts other verses/concepts (where God does not know the future exhaustively).

I believe God is the Author and Director of this movie we live in. He's seen the show from beginning to end. The bible tells us the story. If God doesn't know every detail of the future then how can He prophecy the book of Revelation thru visions? Your saying God has not been to the future how can He know if there is going to be 12000 sealed from each tribe? He brings much or most of Revelation to pass. It is also more general than specific. It does not name exhaustive detail of who the 144K are, but it is predictable that He can influence that many to believe during the Tribulation and set them apart as special (more than that number convert in one evangelistic African meeting by some evangelists). Your movie analogy assumes that all of history is complete and finished. This is only possible if the actors right now have already lived their lives and died and the eternal state is now upon us. How can the future be settled in relation to zillions of present contingencies if the people do not even exist to settle it? How can what I am now typing be 'seen' before I exist to type it?! This is incoherent nonsense and desperation to retain a flawed preconception uncritically despite the biblical/logical evidence against it. Everything before this moment in 2011 is part of the film in the can. The camera is still rolling and the film is blank in relation to 2012 ff. The future cannot be like the fixed past and actual present unless choices precede the choices (huh?). Time is unidirectional, not timeless. Creation is not co-eternal with God nor is Jesus forever hanging on the cross (there is duration in God's experiences!). The unique measures of time are created (sun, moon, stars, clocks). Time itself is not a created thing, but a concept. Just as love is eternal with God, so is endless duration the nature of His triune experience before creation and ever since. If there is a moment before and after time ) for human history, then this shows there is duration in God's experiences (or creation is co-eternal with Him in some sort of timeless 4th dimension which is worse than speculation...science fiction, actually). One should not claim eternal now is true since there is no biblical or logical support for it and much against it (which most of you are not aware of because you just accept the Sunday School view). Introduction to this topic (check Wolterstorff out): http://www.amazon.com/God-Time-Views-Paul-Helm/dp/0830815511 Since most of you are not aware that there is more than two views on the subject, it is too early to be dogmatic unless you can articulate and refute the other views.

1 John 3 20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart and knoweth all things. I'm going to take this scripture by faith. God created a tree of knowledge (god and evil), so if He can create knowledge He is all knowing. Humans trying to figure out what God knows is like monkeys trying to figure out how we build cars. This is not a proof text for exhaustive definite foreknowledge. The context is about God knowing all things in relation to our hearts, a present object of certain knowledge, unlike the not-yet future. It is not a blanket statement on omniscience, but a statement of His knowledge of our hearts (cf. Ps. 139 seeing us in the womb cannot be extrapolated to mean He has always seen the outcome of the 2012 Superbowl).

Time is not a created thing. Who said duration/sequence/succession must have a beginning?! Endless duration/time is eternal. Like love, time as a concept is an aspect of God's triune relations (cannot think, act, feel without duration). God is uncreated with no beginning and end. This does not mean He is timeless, whatever on earth that means for a personal being. Scripture portrays God acting in sequence on every page of Scripture. Creation is not co-eternal with God and Jesus is still not on the cross in an eternal now timeless simultaneity. Ps. 90:2 does show a before and after creation. This is meaningless if things are timeless. Rev. 1:4 uses tensed expressions about God (past, present, future) with no hint of philosophical timelessness. In Revelation, several passages talk about time in heaven/eternity (half hour, years, etc.). Duration, change, sequence, etc. is all about time. This is an aspect of His experience, not a limitation at all.

Actually, the eternal now view is the pagan, Platonic view adopted by Greek-philosophy loving Augustine. The Hebraic view is endless time (Ps. 90:2; Ps. 102:27; Rev. 1:4), not timelessness. Saying omniscience and omnipotence mean that God can do anything and know everything is flawed. God cannot do the undoable (make married bachelors), nor does He know the unknowable (where Alice in Wonderland is). God can do all that is doable and know all that is knowable. There are some things that are inherently undoable/unknowable (logical absurdities) even for an omniscient/omnipresent God. Begging the question is not the way to prove a point. If one is not familiar with the depth of debate on these issues, one should not be dogmatic about the traditional view that is not truth (cf. impassibility is even being rethought by classical theologians who once defended the indefensible). Too much of the classic view is philosophically influenced (Platonic), not biblical.

God is not in the future since it is not a place. The visions of Revelation are visions, not actualities that exist before they exist? The future cannot proceed the present or past logically. God can bring to pass much of the future unilaterally (such as the wrath of Revelation and the Second Coming itself), but that does not mean He brings to pass and knows every tiny detail (nor is it necessary for an omnipotent God to do so). The building/parade analogy proves present knowledge in a spatial situation, but is not applicable to 'seeing' the future (bald assumption begging the question without evidence). The future is fundamentally different than the past/present and Einstein should have known better.

What do you mean by prop vs exper? Propositional Knowledge = Knowing that bicycles exist and can be ridden. Experiential Knowledge = Knowing how to ride a bicycle and getting out and actually riding it. Does omniscience extend to having had every possible experience that can be had? It would appear that there is a distinction. Jesus did not drive a Ferrari, so God/Jesus does not have first hand experience in this. His omniscience would allow Him to build and fix one though. If Jesus incarnates in our century, He could drive a Ferrari and then have this experience added to the propositional knowledge. Since He has probably not done this, He can imagine what it is like through our experiences. He could create the perfect simulator in His mind and approach this. Omniscience does not entail having experiences (Jesus, the God-Man never had sex nor did God the Father, despite what Mormons say), but knowing all that is knowable (reality, facts, but not necessarily experiences like snorting cocaine). God is not discombobulated just because man does things (experience) that God cannot or does not do. My wife and I named our children. God did not have this experience, but gave us the freedom. Once we named them, He knew of this reality (prop.).

because he lives in you..... OK - how about before the giving of the Spirit living in us? Remember he has no time constraints..... he knew you 6,000 years ago... and I'll bet it made him smile Remember when he had finished creation and said that it was good. He knew you then. This is incoherent and unnecessary. You did not exist 6000 years ago. If your parents never freely mated, you would not exist and be known. The Psalmist talks about present knowledge of God seeing the real you in the womb. Time has no constraints is an uncritically accepted assumption leading to wrong conclusions. Time is unidirectional, even for God. Jesus is not on the cross perpetually and creation precedes Second Coming, even for God. Every page of the Bible shows God's history, His Story, chronological dealing with men in real, unfolding space-time history. Timelessness is an unbiblical, philosophical error. Take it away, and our view of omniscience becomes more coherent, biblical.