germanJoy

The Scriptures confirmed the "mystery" of godliness, yes "Trinity" is a mystery according to Scriptures. Speaking about Jesus Christ, Paul wrote: And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness; He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16 Since it is a mystery, it cannot be intellectually and logically understood. It can only be received by and through the revelation of the Holy Spirit. There are only two (2) spirits controlling the souls of human beings, i.e., the Holy Spirit and the antichrist spirit. If the Holy Spirit reveals a truth to a person, this individual begins to believe and confess that Jesus is the Son of the Living God, Jesus is Lord, Jesus is raised from the dead, Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man, Jesus is the Word of God who was with God and was God, etc. (acknowledging distinct identiy of Jesus as Son of God and equality of Jesus and God). All these revelations were received by Apostle Peter, Paul, and all believing christians at that time until today. The only true revelation that leads to truth and eternal life. If the antichrist spirit reveals a lie to a person, this individual begins to believe and confess that Jesus is not God but only man, Jesus is half-God and half-man, Jesus is not Lord, Jesus is not raised from the dead, Jesus has no Father for He is the Father in heaven because there is only One God, etc. (denying distinct identity of Jesus as Son of God and denying equality of Jesus and God). All these revelations were received by those who presented another gospel to deceive the minds of the believers and pull them out of the true teachings about Jesus Christ. The false teaching that leads to lies and eternal destruction. There are two sitting on the heavenly throne. So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. Mark 16:19 and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God. Acts 7:56 There are two names of God (the name of the Son and the Father) on the forehead of the chosen 144,000. And I looked and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. Rev. 14:1 Both the Father AND the Son (not the Father OR the Son) have to be confessed. Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:22-23 Jesus is God. looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of our great God and Saviour, Christ Jesus; Titus 2:13 God is the Father of Jesus. We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Colossians 1:3 Trinity according to Apostle Paul. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Sprit, be with you all. 2 Cor. 13:14 Trinity, a wonderful mystery full of truth that sets the captives free. Would you like to be set free, emeraldgirl? Take heed to the revelation of the Holy Spirit!

crab, to educate your mind of the biblical views about "tonques", allow me to requote here my own personal post regarding "Tonques acceptance" from a christian website: http://www.christianchatforum.com/bbs/show...p=4546#post4546 QUOTE. The word "tonques" in the bible has four (4) different definitions: 1. Physical tonques - Psalms 78:36 Nevertheless they flattered him with their mouth, and they lied to him with their tongues. 2. Tonques meant as "languages" of the nation and people - Gen. 10:20 These are the sons of Ham, after their families, after their tonques, by their lands, by their nations. Rev. 10:11 And they said to me, "You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tonques and kings. The other two (2) meanings describe the speaking with "tonques" as the gift of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament which both needs a gifted interpreter. 3. Tonques of men (earthly foreign language tonques) wherein the language being spoken is foreign to the speaker but may or may not be foreign to the listeners. (If a foreigner hears that the tonques spoken is in his own language, then he should of course interpret the tonques. But if no foreigner or learned interpreter is present, then the one who has the "heavenly" gift of interpretation should interpret. If there is still none, then no tonques should be spoken.) Examples of these instances are in Acts. 2:4-11 4. Tonques of angels (heavenly tonques) wherein the language being spoken is foreign to both speaker and listeners. In this case, the one who is heavenly gifted should interpret. 1 Cor. 13:1 If I speak with the tonques of men and of angels..... Quote: Question:

Thanks, EricH, for the reminder. IMO, a definitive answer can be reached if two different opinions become one by the unitiing work of the Holy Spirit and by God's living Word. It just amazes me if someone says the bible is "the perfect". On the other thread, one cannot even settle the issue "which bible is right". If there is a bible that is perfect, which bible then? If one cannot even find the answer which bible is right, how can anyone expect finding the answer which bible is perfect. Therefore it is easier to say that GOD alone IS PERFECT, isn't it?

You speak as if you believe the sheep and goats scenario is an ongoing process. It is in fact an endtime prophecy which speaks of the end of the tribulation period Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: When Jesus comes in his Glory, by which time we have been raptured to him and enjoyed the wedding banquet. So who is he separating? The ones that remain after the rapture of the Bride, that is those Jews (and possibly some gentiles I will conceide) who tended to the Bride of Christ while she suffered under the tribulation of the antichrist, before being raptured. Again you missed the obvious point that a "true believer" as you would call it would know the simple premise that what you do to a christian you do to Christ, yet in this passage the sheep have no clue what Jesus means, not one of them. There will be many Jews who though sympathetc are not at all familiar with the words and meanings of Christ having held the NT in contempt and it is their love for christians which will hold them in good stead, for having loved christians they have loved Christ. Ongoing process? Did I not speak about the "Judgment Day" all the time? Great observation! Your statement confirms that the "Rapture" is a separate event of the "Judgment Day". I totally agree to that. Be assured that if you make it to the rapture, you are considered as the "wise virgin" whole lamp did not run out of oil. And as a "wise virgin", you are considered as the "sheep", the "true believer" while the "foolish virgins" are the "false believers". They were too foolish and too lazy to FILL their lamps with oil. One NEEDS to love CHRIST FIRST before one is ever capable of loving a christian. Unless the jews love Christ, they can never truly love christians. If they love Christ, they will love the little "christs...christians". If they abhor Christ, they will also abhor the little "christs....christians". That is the REALITY of what has been and will be. By the way, not all dead "christians" will be raised up during the rapture. Read Rev. 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Crabs, before you accuse me of claiming somewhere that God is not perfect, prove it first. For I never said that. Your accusations are not justified. The problem is that you are confusing the COMPILATION of the book "The Bible" with the "WORD OF GOD". Be clarified that the Bible is a physical book where the WORD OF GOD is written. It is not THE WORD OF GOD itself. THE WORD OF GOD is JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF, who is God Himself. We cannot say that the bible is Jesus Christ but we can say that the Word of God is Jesus Christ. So stop mixing up the two... don't make a cocktail drink out of it. For clarification sake, the Word of God, Jesus Christ, is perfect but the compilation of the book "the Bible" is not. Why? simply because the compilation of this book was made in the 4th Century by the Council of Nicea under the Roman Catholic Church. Furthermore, there are still manuscripts/materials or documents of Scriptures hidden by this institution which are not revealed yet or perhaps will never be revealed anymore. And now you want to call this "the perfect"? I won't! I rather declare JESUS CHRIST as the ONLY PERFECT one, not the compilation of a book or any books.

The sheep and the goats are Jews and the "judgement" that this refers to is the sorting of Righteous and unrighteous Jews. If you notice the following verses in the passage, the sheep have no idea what Jesus is talking about when he says "you visited me in prison, fed me while I was hungry..." A "true believer" as you would understand it, would be very familiar with Jesus words "whatsoever you do to the least of my bretheren, this you do also unto me" The Sheep in this case are Jews who are sympathetic to the cause of christians and take good care of them during their affliction, most probably during the satanic tribulation - 3 and a half years where he is given the power to fight and subdue the saints (revelations) What makes you say that the "Jews" (the unbelieving, you mean?) are the sheeps and the goats? There are no righteous and unrighteous jews (at least not how you see it). The "righteous jews" have Jesus as their Lord and Saviour and they are called "christians, christian jews". The "unrighteous jews" are those who reject Jesus and they are called "antichrist" just like the gentiles who also reject Christ. In the parable, the sheeps and the goats are the "believing jews and gentiles". Jesus declared THOSE who do the Father's will are His brothers. Thus when He said " if you do it to one of these brothers of Mine", He was addressing it to the believers. The "true believer" being not familiar with Jesus words as you have put it does not make sense. In fact, the "righteous or sheep" in this parable knew the words of Christ in that they followed His ways, they performed works of righteousness. And the "accursed ones or the goats" did not know His words in that they did not DO or perform any works of righteousness. That is what the parable is all about.

Not inheriting the Kingdom is equivalent to rejecting the gospel. If you had the insight to understand the passage properly you would see that the writer is clearly distinguishing between those who reject the gospel and continue to live by the law of the flesh and seek to be justified by it, and those who hear the gospel of Christ and are saved by it. Think about it, if by believing on Christ we become sons and heirs...if it were possible to lose our salvation then we would FORFEIT our inheritance. The Apostles were educated and articulate men. If they were warning that one might forfeit their inheritance, they would have said exactly that. I've already highlighted how the passage makes the distinction between believers and non-believers a few posts back, however I will endeavour to make it much clearer for you. Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: *adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, *murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Those who live by the flesh, revel in sin without repentance will perish and not enter the kingdom of Heaven 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another. But those purchased by the blood of Christ and indwelt by the Holy Spirit (the seal and guarantee of our inheritance - Eph 1:13) live much more righteously, having cast off sinful practise. Therefore, do not behave like one who is still walking in the works of the flesh. Well in fact Paul did FOREWARN the believers of not inheriting the kingdom if they practice such things. envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:21 I guess you need to fully understand that the works Paul was talking about in Galatians were the WORKS OF THE LAW, the works of the flesh. This has nothing to do with the JUDGMENT OF DEEDS/WORKS of good and evil in Rev. 20:12. Do not mix these two up. Although Paul was instructing christians that their salvation is not based on the works of the Law like circumcision, observance of Sabbath, etc. but that one is justified by faith alone in Christ Jesus, he was also telling them that those who practice evil (which is a work that will be judged) will not inherit the kingdom of God. For a tree is known by its fruits, a bad tree bears bad fruit while a good tree bears good fruit. That is the reason why there are false apostles, false prophets, and false brethren. These "false believers" also call Jesus "Lord" but the difference is their deeds are evil. And yes the Apostles were vigilant enough to warn us not to be deceived. By their fruits, we will know them and not by their pleasant words about salvation but by their deeds. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their deeds. Galatians 11:13-15

hr.jr. Keep it up, brother! How can christians believe that the bible is the "perfect" when in fact neither Jesus nor the Apostles ever prophesied or said that any book or "bible" will one day be called the "perfect". That is more to me just a heresy. You are right to say, hr.jr., that only Jesus Christ was ever referred to as the Perfect in the Scriptures. 1 Cor. 13:8-9 refers to the full redemption of the body of Christ when the day Jesus returns as the "perfect", no more no less.

Galatians 5:21 confirms that those who practice lawlessness (the deeds of the flesh) have fallen/are falling from salvation: Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry.......and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have foewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Not inheriting the kingdom of God is losing salvation and Paul was warning the churches in Galatia that they should not practice these things, instead they ought to walk in the Spirit so that they do not gratify the lust of their flesh. How did you come to the conlusion the "not inheriting the kingdom of God" is equivalent to "losing ones salvation". I see nothing in the passage that states this. All I see is a statement that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom. I see no statement regarding them having been save then loosing it. One could just as easily say they were not saved in the first place If you inherit something, you are called the heir. If you are the heir of God, then you are the son of God. If you are not the heir of God, you are not the son. While the righteous heirs/sons who are saved inherits the kingdom of God, the unrighteous who are unsaved cannot inherit but are thrown into the lake of fire. Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6:9-10 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. Rev. 21:8 But those who overcome will inherit all things. He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. Rev. 21:7 That is why "not inheriting God's kingdom" is equivalent to "losing salvation" for inheriting God's kingdom makes one His son while not inheriting makes one His enemy, unrighteous, evil-doer .

Judgement Day is for the non believers and for those who wish to be judged by their works. The Book of Life contains ALL who trust to Christ for their Righteousness, ie all true Christians, those who live by Faith, not works. All others must be judged by their own deeds, and since ALL HAVE SINNED, that means ALL that are not in the Book of Life pay THE penalty Judgement Day is the separation of the sheeps and the goats, it is for all "true believers" (sheep) and "fake believers" (goats). Non-believers are already judged while still here on earth. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18 Non-believers (whose names are not written in the Book of Life) are bound/already judged to be thrown into the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the Book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:15 But for the dead standing before the throne ("believers" stand before the throne), another book is opened also called "book of life" where the DEEDS are written and will be judged. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds Rev. 20:12-13 The point is every person will be judged according to his deeds, good or evil by God. The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil. Eccl. 12:13-14 Notice Jesus did not say "He who believes in Him will (future tense) not be judged" but He said in John 3:18: "He who believes in Him is not judged" (present participle), by anyone here on earth for the judgment is done by God Himself. Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time (the Judgment Day) but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden(referring to Eccl. 12:14)in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God. 1 Cor. 4:5 The works/deeds of the slaves, the believers, will be judged and the worthless slaves/believers will be cast out into the outer darkness: And cast out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 25:30 This clearly tells us that the slave, the believer, lost his salvatioin in that he was assigned a place where the non-believers are. Only the believers who DO (work) the will of God will be saved. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord, willl enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21 Obviously, those who call on the name of the Lord Jesus were believers too but since they did not DO the will of the Father, they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. I can name so many teachings/parables of Christ that says not all who believe will be saved but only those who really "worked out their salvation with fear and trembling", those whose lamps do not run out of oil, those who build their house upon the rock.

Galatians 5:21 confirms that those who practice lawlessness (the deeds of the flesh) have fallen/are falling from salvation: Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry.......and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have foewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Not inheriting the kingdom of God is losing salvation and Paul was warning the churches in Galatia that they should not practice these things, instead they ought to walk in the Spirit so that they do not gratify the lust of their flesh.

When I became a christian in 1985, my spiritual mentors (a pastor and his wife) taught me that quiet time (which they religiously follow until this day) is the most important "thing to do" to stay spiritually awake. Thus without it, you will be missing God. I do not totally disagree (since I do it as often as I can) with them except that after seeing their falling away (they went back to idolatry, praying to the dead, having Mary figures and the like, etc.), I came to understand that "quite time" after all had not really helped them keep their faith. Another group of pastors who were my mentors as well were also very deep in their commitment to "quiet time" but now have also gone astray by preaching that "we are gods, we are holy and perfect, we are already in our glorified bodies, Jesus has already come, etc." What kept me from following their ways was my love for the WORD OF CHRIST. What I keep regularly is meditating on the Word of God, followed by prayer and quiet time. The problem will occur once "quiet time" becomes the center of the activity and the Word of God is given less priority. How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or sit in the seat of mockers or stand in the way of sinners. But his delight is in the law of the Lord, he meditates on it day and night. He will be like a tree planted by the rivers of living water which yields its fruit in season and whose leaf does not wither. Whatever he does, he shall prosper. Psalms 1:1-3 I'm a Filipina-German. :-)

Hi, Daave. I am seeing one problem on your presented analogy. The instructions on women being silent in the church was clearly situational since there was a woman, Anna the prophetess, SPEAKING in the temple of God. Considering the contrast between Luke 2:36-38 and 1 Cor. 14:34, we can conclude that one of the two is an exception being situational. And there was a prophetess, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was advanced in years, having lived with a husband seven years after her marriage, and then as a widow to the age of 84. And she never left the temple, serving night and day with fasting and prayers. And at that very moment she came up and began giving thans to God, and continued to speak of Him to all those who were loking for the redemption of Jerusalem. Luke 2:36-38 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1 Cor. 14:34 If women were to be silent in the church, how could Anna speak in the temple of God if she was violating the law? Obviously, women speaking in the temple or church of God was not against the law. Thus, we can conclude that Paul was instructing the particular women at a particular church in Corinth who had to be instructed differently than the women in Jerusalem. In this respect, the instruction of "speaking in tonques" cannot be held in the same position with that of "women being silent in the church" (as contrasted by Luke 2) since there are no contrasting instruction by any of the Apostles that tonques have ceased or will cease today.

This topic "Once Saved Always Saved" (OSAS) versus "Work Out Your Salvation with fear and trembling" (WOYS) is in parallel to the topic "Predestination" versus "Freewill". Unless one sees that all teachings (OSAS and WOYS as well as Predestination and Freewill) are biblical, it will remain an endless discussion. The conflicts rising up from these arguments are pre-programmed once two different minds would extremely stick to only one side while totally ignoring the other. It all boils down to whether our salvation is by faith without works or by faith with works. It starts with these two verses: OSAS For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. WOYS You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected....You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:22-24 At first glance, one thinks both scriptures are contradicting but if one looks at it with a balanced attitude, one understands the purpose and intent Paul and James had when they wrote these messages. While Paul was emphasizing on salvation by FAITH, THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST at the cross (not by the works of any saints), James was emphasizing on WORKS, the fruits of righteousness that CONFIRMS the salvation by FAITH Paul was preaching. Thus he added, faith without works is dead... which clearly tells us that OSAS without WOYS is also dead. On one hand, OSAS teaching although biblical if EXTREMELY preached can lead many christians to be fruitless and end up as "worthless slaves" on the day of Judgement. On the other hand, WOYS teaching although biblical if also EXTREMELY preached can lead many christians to trust on their works and end up as "building upon the sand" on the day of Judgement. A wise christian would weigh things properly out. We have many scriptures supporting "OSAS" as well as "WOYS", and also several scriptures supporting "Predestination" as well as "Freewill". So the conclusion is WE NEED TO TEACH AND PREACH BOTH. We need to assure believers of their salvation by faith alone (OSAS). We also need to warn the same believers of the coming judgement if that faith produces no works (WOYS). No room for compromise, we have to preach the PURE Word of God. And yes, IMO, anyone of us can lose his salvation and end up in hell out of his own freewill act of intentionally and habitually sinning. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Hebrews 10:29 For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURN TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, " A SOW, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire." 1 Peter 2:20-22 The state of fallen believers is worst than before they became christians because they KNEW faith but yet they did not DO anything about their faith. Could it be because they were hardened by the OSAS teaching?

In the epistle of John, we need to see that John made distinctions between "willful/habitual sinning" and "unwillful/non-habitual sinning". Firstly, 1 John 3:9 speaks about the "abnormal" state of believers who are practicing sin by intentionally or habitually sinning and thus he said no one born of God habitually practices sin. Secondly, 1 John 1:8-10 speaks about the "normal" state of believers sinning (unwillfully, not out of habit but out of negligence, human failures, etc.) which is a common thing to all born of God. John confirms that those who assume otherwise (being perfect and holy, having no sin or not sinning anymore) makes God a liar in verse 10. He further confirms that this state of perfection and holiness "literally" being like JESUS HIMSELF (spotless and blamess being His bride) is ATTAINABLE only at the day of FULL REDEMPTION (when we receive our glorified bodies, when we overcome the sting of death, when the mortal puts on immortality, the perishable puts on the imperishable 1 Cor. 15:52-55) and that is the time when Christ comes to fetch/catch us up. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. (being perfect, sinless) We know that when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is. 1 John 3:2 You see, we can only "literally" be like Jesus once we see Him face to face. Now our job is to keep ourselves pure because of this blessed hope we are focusing unto that we may not be disqualified as His spotless/blameless Bride when He appears. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. verse 3 How do we purify ourselves? by confessing our sins and asking for God's forgiveness...1 John 1:9 Now, if that member believes that he is no longer sinning, how can he purify himself then? Anyone who says he is NOW holy and perfect but commits a sin tomorrow, has already sinned by lying... thus a lie is found in his mouth. Therefore anyone who believes to be NOW holy and perfect is seen to be a sinner with an unrepentant heart (for how can he repent of something he thinks he never committed?), is proud and makes himself even equal to God who ALONE is HOLY AND PERFECT.

God's ways are higher than ours. While we (humans) struggle "blessing" bad people, Jesus did not. He teaches us to "love our enemies (these bad people)", to bless them. I think the reason why God wants to bless them is because of His nature, God is love. He allows it for a moment that they may experience His goodness and while seeing their wickedness it would bring them into their knees leading to repentance. I say for a moment because I believe that there is a period of grace set for their "innocence". Remember the story of Paul the Apostle? He was innocent although his actions were evil (murdering christians), yet he was experiencing "good things" (physically and materially blessed). When he became a christian, he considered all his past accomplishments (including the "good things" with it) as RUBBISH!. He began to see that the REAL GOOD THINGS are found only IN CHRIST!

Bad things? I don't really see "bad things" happening to "christians" (I'd rather use "christians or believers" than "good people" for no one is good except God). So, I'd rather see or ask it this way: Why does God allow "sorrows" to happen to "christians/believers"? Firstly, there are two types of sorrows, namely: Godly sorrow and wordly sorrow. The wordly sorrows are for the unbelieving while the Godly for the believing, a sorrow that is according to the will of God leading to repentance. I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, in order that you might not suffer loss in anything through us. For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation; but the sorrow of the world produces death. 2 Cor. 7:9-10 So, believers, if we have sorrows, we must be sure they are GODLY and not wordly. And Times, there are no bad things happening to christians because God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. Rom. 8:28 Why? because GOD IS GOOD, ALL THE TIME! That is why!

Romans 14: v1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. v2 One man has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. v3 Let not him who eats regard with contempt him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats, for God has accepted him..... v 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord for he gives thanks to God, and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. First of all, you need to be filled with the Holy Spirit of God to be able to understand the context of this Chapter. Secondly, any reputable biblical scholars would not commit the mistake of over-looking the bolded verb "eat" mentioned several times here which obviously you want to ignore by saying "Romans 14 is applicable far beyond labeling what we should and should not eat. Paul opens this Chapter in verse 1 by relating that there are those who are weak in faith for not eating everything. There was a previous discussion among the brethren (considering the jewish customs and beliefs) whether one may eat things sacrificed to idols or not. In verse 2 Paul confirms that there are those with faith who eats all things while there are those who are vegetarians (in order not to end up eating meat sacrificed to idols). In verse 3 Paul instructs both (vegetarians and meat eaters) are accepted by God. In verse 6 Paul again assures that he who eats and he who eats not do it for the Lord in thanksgiving. If you are still not able to understand that this Chapter talks about freedom of "eating" (certain things that divides the brethren's points of view because the consideration was the "food" to be eaten is one "sacrificed to idols) and insist that this verse applies to freedom of exercising certain rituals like Yoga body movement, then I ask you to consult a bible scholar for help. v14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. v15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.. v17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. v20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. v21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. v23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith, and whatever is not from faith is sin. To correctly understand the crux of Paul's message in verse 14 (bible scholars follow this procedure), you need to connect it to the following verse. This tells us that the "nothing" mentioned as "unclean in itself" is the "food" which hurts the brother whom you will destroy if you judge him with his eating or not. Verse 20 confirms this that "food" is referred here as "all things are clean" as you see above bolded. And the reason was stated all things are clean but are evil for men who EATS and gives offense. Again, it refers (the all things as clean) to EATING AND OR FOOD. Up to the last verse, "eating" not from faith is still mentioned. So Tess open your eyes and see that this Chapter is all about "eating", specifically referred, underlined and bolded. I was laying down a principle of understanding the fact that not because "nothing is unclean (which you take out of context to justify your "Yoga" exercies)", we are now free to indulge into any "unclean" activities like divination, sorcery, etc. (By the way, if you are resourceful you will find many christian websites that teaches "Yoga" is a demonic exercise as supported by Scriptures. This is a comprehensive thesis and if you want, I will ask the permission of the authors to publish it here.) There is actually no problem in stretching exercises unless one takes yoga positions believing that they are normal stretching exercises and non-religious, but in fact they are worshipful poses to Hindu gods. I am not denying the fact that stretching is helpful for blood flow which is good for our health. But there are many other ways offered not connected to any religion especially Hinduism. From a Hindu view, practicing yoga is not a physical exercise for the body but spiritual. To join this "spirituality", either you take only the physical aspect or not, you become a partaker of the demonic spirit behind it. This religion teaches that by doing the "spiritual exercise, yoga" you will discover that you are god. What are we suppose to do with the human body He created? Honor Him or dishonor Him? The choice is yours. If it has nothing to do with the Yoga positions of Hinduism which you should know best being a partaker, if it just merely stretching and exercising which most christians do anyway, then I don't see anything wrong with it. The point Tess is, if you were once a Yoga/Hindu believer, you need to RENOUNCE/REMOVE/RID YOURSELF OF/TAKE OUT the/from the demonic garment of Hindu practices, from its tiniest to its greatest effects in your ENTIRE BEING. That is the only way to be totally set free from the strongholds, the curses, the demons assigned to the false worship of these false gods/religion. When the Israelites were told to burn their idols, they had to burn even the gold in it. In the same way, if you were a demon worshipper and you become a christian, you need to burn the whole demonic aspect (spirit, soul, and body) of worship and turn away from it FOREVER and worship God alone with Jesus Christ our High Priest, Lord God and King in the power of the Holy Spirit!. That is TRUE WORSHIP. :-) I did my study, I exposed verse by verse the context of this Chapter. Now, it is your turn. Do you consider "Yoga" done under the shelter of Hinduism demonic or not? If you are able to answer this, I'll tell you why it is unclean.

I did not make that statement. I was just implying an "African cultural way/manner" of dealing with their goddesses which Christians should avoid and should have nothing to do with. If that African dance is a dance made for their goddesses, then yes it is very wrong to offer it to Jesus. A true worshipper of Jesus walks by the Word of God: You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? We are not stronger than He, are we? All things arre lawful, but not all things edify. 1 Cor. 10.21-23 You cannot offer the dance you once offered to the demons to the Lord, that is not edifying but provoking God. In the same way, all yoga exercises (worst is, if christians are the ones doing it) with or without Hindu religious aspects is clearly wrong. It is the spirit behind this yoga exercise that carries the curse. If it is a curse, it should be renounced and turned away from. Elihugirl, christians who practice Yoga lack the understanding and have not experienced yet "entering the holy presence of God, the throne of grace where Jesus Christ is the High Priest and the worshipper is washed cleaned by the blood of the Lamb of God". No yoga can match that! Have you ever tried to linger on His presence? If none, I would not wonder why you would be needing to think of yoga. The movements of yoga can never become Christian because this movement is not our High Priest. It is the movement of Jesus Christ that is the only way to the presence of God. Have you not known that Satan also quoted bible verses... not all chanting bible verses are of God. Praising Jesus is doing His way, not the yoga way.

Hi Eccentric. It is very nice of you to consider the christians' view on the possible complications Nanobots may create. It is indeed necessary to know what and how the "children of God" think or say about vital issues in life. I myself am not well-informed of this subject "nanobots". Thus, my comment will be limited to the complications "robots in general" have on human lives/attitudes. I recently watched on T.V. news the latest "robotical" technology (forgot the exact term used) Japan is developing which is fixed on human bodies (especially created for elderly people to help them be more mobile and/or able to walk). With this, I don't see so much problem. However, there is a type of "robot mania" which concerns me as a christian. In Japan, people are making "robots" do almost everything (household chores, etc.) and make humans more idle and lazier. Lately, there was a discussion going on in this site regarding "Christianity and Yoga". I raised up the thought that Jesus and His disciples certainly never resorted to "Yoga" for their physical exercise. I got a deeper understanding as to why they needed no exercise.... simply because they had no cars... they walked several kilometers everyday and that was enough for them to be physcially fit! When cars were invented, christians needed to think of doing sports to stay healthy and that is just fine. What gets wrong is if christians begin to embrace the ways of the "unbelievers" like "Yoga, Meditation and the like" to stay physcially fit. Now if the invention of cars made christians physically unfit where "some" stumbled, the more detriments "robots" would cause for our physcical fitness are foreseeable. I hope my views will be helpful to your studies. germanJoy

I understand your concerns Smalcald but you need to consider the Parable of the Ten Virgins. Were they all believers? Yes! for they were all virgins. Are all 10 saved? No, only those whose lamps did not run out of oil were saved. Had it something to do with the will and/or their deeds why the lazy virgins were left out? Absolutely! You see, this kind of discussion leads to "Predestination against Free-Will". I personally believe in both, for both are scriptural. It may sound silly but both theories are supported by Scriptures. The reason why I think that there will be "believers" left during the reign of the beast, the head of the antichrist is because of Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. verse 5 the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. The "rapture event" takes out both the living and the dead believers AT THE SAME TIME with their glorified bodies. These raptured believers obviously do not have to come to life again since they are already with the Lord forever with their resurrected/glorified bodies. However, the "first resurrection" calls some specified believers to life to reign with Christ for 1000 years with their glorified bodies while the other dead believers remained in their grave (the rest of the dead did not come to life). They were not raised up altogether unlike during the "rapture". This is the part in the scriptures that makes me believe that there are "separate dealings" of believers. Another proof where two diff. "sets" of believers are in: 1. Rev. 7:14-17 believers who came out of the tribulation. 2. Rev. 15:2-4 believers who came off victorious from the beast and from his image. I base all my "theories" on what I read in the bible especially Revelations. My thoughts about it could be erroneous and I would appreciate it if I am corrected. Be blessed. germanJoy

IMO, there are two kinds of gospel messages, to wit: "gospel of belief and gospel of obedience". Many christians preach only one kind while neglecting the other. In other words, many believe on OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved, the product "gospel of belief") while rejecting WOYS (Work Out Your Salvation, the product of "gospel of obedience") instead of believing both positions. Johnz, "the gospel of belief" is what you have quoted i.e., John 3:16-21 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life..... In addition, we need to also quote "the gospel of obedience" i.e., John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." This means "believing" and "obeying" the Son is the assurance of eternal life. In other words, if you work out your salvation, you qualify to be once saved always saved. For a man is justified by works also and not by faith alone. Faith is working with a man's works and as a result of the works, faith is perfected. (James 2:22-24) God bless you. germanJoy