Mark777

Luther: "These works, however, must not be done with any notion that by them a man can be justified before God--for faith, which alone is righteousness before God, will not bear with this false notion.." Mark: Thanks Martin, I kind of knew that works didn't justifiy me either before or after salvation. Your follower though doesn't realize this and doesn't understand that the old man is to be subdued and will be the thing that dies - the new man will live forever wanting to please God.

Concerning Christian Liberty by Martin Luther (1520) Translation by R. S. Grignon 1. The Prince by Niccolo Machiavelli; Utopia by Sir Thomas More; Ninety-Five Theses; Address to the German Nobility; Concerning Christian Liberty by Martin Luther, With Introductions and Notes. The Five-Foot Shelf of Books, "The Harvard Classics", Volume 36 (New York: P. F. Collier & Son, 1910) Pages 353-397. Conclusion of the Treatise And now let us turn to the other part: to the outward man. Here we shall give an answer to all those who, taking offence at the word of faith and at what I have asserted, say, "If faith does everything, and by itself suffices for justification, why then are good works commanded? Are we then to take our ease and do no works, content with faith?" Not so, impious men, I reply; not so. That would indeed really be the case, if we were thoroughly and completely inner and spiritual persons; but that will not happen until the last day, when the dead shall be raised. As long as we live in the flesh, we are but beginning and making advances in that which shall be completed in a future life. On this account the Apostle calls that which we have in this life the firstfruits of the Spirit (Rom. viii. 23). In future we shall have the tenths, and the fullness of the Spirit. To this part belongs the fact I have stated before: that the Christian is the servant of all and subject to all. For in that part in which he is free he does no works, but in that in which he is a servant he does all works. Let us see on what principle this is so. Although, as I have said, inwardly, and according to the spirit, a man is amply enough justified by faith, having all that he requires to have, except that this very faith and abundance ought to increase from day to day, even till the future life, still he remains in this mortal life upon earth, in which it is necessary that he should rule his own body and have intercourse with men. Here then works begin; here he must not take his ease; here he must give heed to exercise his body by fastings, watchings, labour, and other regular discipline, so that it may be subdued to the spirit, and obey and conform itself to the inner man and faith, and not rebel against them nor hinder them, as is its nature to do if it is not kept under. For the inner man, being conformed to God and created after the image of God through faith, rejoices and delights itself in Christ, in whom such blessings have been conferred on it, and hence has only this task before it: to serve God with joy and for nought in free love. But in doing this he comes into collision with that contrary will in his own flesh, which is striving to serve the world and to seek its own gratification. This the spirit of faith cannot and will not bear, but applies itself with cheerfulness and zeal to keep it down and restrain it, as Paul says, "I delight in the law of God after the inward man; but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin" (Rom. vii. 22, 23), and again, "I keep under my body, and bring it unto subjection, lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway" (1 Cor. ix. 27), and "They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh, with the affections and lusts" (Gal. v. 24). ((((((These works, however, must not be done with any notion that by them a man can be justified before God--for faith, which alone is righteousness before God, will not bear with this false notion--but solely with this purpose: that the body may be brought into subjection, and be purified from its evil lusts, so that our eyes may be turned only to purging away those lusts.))))))) For when the soul has been cleansed by faith and made to love God, it would have all things to be cleansed in like manner, and especially its own body, so that all things might unite with it in the love and praise of God. Thus it comes that, from the requirements of his own body, a man cannot take his ease, but is compelled on its account to do many good works, that he may bring it into subjection. Yet these works are not the means of his justification before God; he does them out of disinterested love to the service of God; looking to no other end than to do what is well-pleasing to Him whom he desires to obey most dutifully in all things. -------------------------------------- It is clear that Luther believed that Salvation was for good. That faith created a spirit that wants to please God. It is an impossibility for a believer to turn their back on God if they have a spirit that wants to please God. This agrees with the Scripture that says we are born again of incorruptible seed and the one that says God will lose nothing. The new nature is one of obedience not sin.

What made the difference in Luther's life was God- you are right - and then came investigation. He looked and learned and was convicted. He tried to reform the Catholic church. They wouldn't have it. This is the responsibility of every believer. To reform themselves. Luther was no more equiped than anyone else. We all have the creator within our person. God can directly influence every one of us. We do not need any man made church institution to know God's truth. It is God who keeps us and keeps His word. It is God who indwells us and puts His truth in our hearts. This comes first. God may use people, institutions, histories, creeds etc to aid a believer but the source is God and He can be directly experienced by each one of us. My God teaches me. He has taught me from day one. He taught me before I was aware of His existence. He kept me and saved me and has taught me. I learned from Luther and others - things both good and bad. But to think of adhering to any man's system of thought seems repulsive to me. I question myself - and any other man. The Standard is Christ. His perfect word is the Scripture. His teaching agent is the Holy Spirit - which every believer has within them. True Believers are taught by Him. We are all sinners. Look to God not to man. Mark

Smalcald, I would like to ask YOU what you think made the difference in Luther's transformation from Roman Catholic to Protestant Reformer? What was the agent of change? Mark

Butero: "As for their dedication, that is without question. Also, since they did pave the way for us to have the written Word of God in our own possession today, and we are no longer forced to rely on the RCC to tell us what it says, I do not dismiss them as ordinary or not important. I just look at their main importance as being that we can know the Bible for ourselves, not the doctrinal conclusions they came to." Mark777: I agree fully. This was my intent for this thread. The weakness of most church people I know is that they do not know much at all. We should. To study the Scriptures should be the most important thing in our lives. My brother and I have learned Koine Greek - always improving - and are attempting Hebrew. What else do we do with our live that would mean more - besides witnessing about Jesus? Luther and others are a part of our heritage for sure - but I think we each have a responsibility to learn as much as possible in order to give a good account of the Way. Mark

Noted.

Jackie, That is the way of all men. We have to overcome all that the world puts inside of us but of course we never succeed in doing it completely before death. Martin Luther did do wonders for us - but he didn't succeed in conquering somethings in his life. We are all like that. That is why the standard for belief and behavior is Christ. Our perfect work on Spiritual matters is the Bible. God forgives even Bigotry. Mark

I'm not interested in repeating all this again with YOU. I have dealt with everything you have brought up on the OSAS thread and others can judge the content. You have shown to me that you dishonestly quote others and apply meaning that the writer doesn't intend - just to win an argument. I think your aim was to hyjack this thread by making wild accusations and misquoting me. I do not believe God wishes me to continue with you under these conditions. Feel free to do so if you wish. Mark

Have you not said that you realize that Jesus said he will lose nothing but at the same time one can lose their salvation by rejection Christ? that is a contradiction. Either God will lose nothing or He will lose something. But since He has said that we will not - if He does - He is a liar or mistaken. Mark

Shelak, Amen! Great verse. Mark777

st. Worm : from Mark777 "I just wanted to express my total amazement concerning the silence of my request for a biblical explanation. Is there something wrong with Scripture that it cannot be discussed directly but has to be filtered through men who lived centuries ago and died?" I took this and your quotes like it to mean there was no value for you in learning from church fathers. You even threatened to take your Bible and run home if we did not give in to your demand that we debate on your limited terms." --------------- Mark777: I laughed so much at this. You post a quote from me saying that I prefer Scriptural validation instead of theology and say that you took it to mean that I see no value in the church father's works? Very big jump there. It sounds like you wanted to jump there - it is always easier to deal with false straw men than what was really said. And very loving of you in way of attitude. I did not ask for a debate - especially one on my terms - all I wanted was to hear an argument from someone that dealt with the passages in Scripture that I was pointing out. I'm sorry, but your theory that God contradicts himself was not very satisfying. I did go and become a part of another board where people are obliging me. This thread was a logical extention of where the OSAS thread ended. Eric, I am trying to stay civil. I see why the other thread you mentioned went wayward. Mark

st. Worm: "Whenever, Mark777 interprets God's Word, that is following the doctrines of man." Mark777: Only if I have followers. I am commanded to search the Scriptures and understand them for myself. You are so defensive about Luther that you have missed the point altogether. Luthers quote still stands - whether other men of his time spoke in the same manner does not justify him but convicts the other men of his time. And that was also my point. Mark

Apothanein Kerdos, I agree with what you said and this was my original intent for the thread. Thank you for your comments. Mark

st. Worm : " I answered Mark the way I did with some of his recent posts in mind that were attempts to say that there is no value in the teachings of men like Luther. " Mark: st. Worm, I call you on this statement. Where did I say there was no value in the teachings of Luther or anyone else? You have accused me - now show it. I asked you to play fair and I guess this is my answer. I never said this or insinuated it. Because you cannot answer my original thought you have to invent straw men to knock down. I ask you clearly to show us where I said this? Mark

Smalcald, You are a great man and so is every other believer by the mere fact that we have God indwelling us. And we have great possibilities. People should exercise their god given ability tosearch the Scriptures for themselves - to take personal responsibility to know what it says and battle with it - to seek truth. I never said that creeds and histories were not important. I said you do not need them to know the truth. You need Scripture and the Holy Spirit. And because st. Worm accused me of not respecting Luther everone should go back and read the intro to my first post. One other thing - I said also that this was written later in his life. My reason for posting it was to show that even great men are sinners and are effected by their times and circumstances. It was my hope to elevate Scripture over men's thoughts about the Scripture. I believe people should have a direct experience. Thank you, Mark

Oh what grave tone you use. I like your style. "I'm so disappointed in you" "You should be ashamed of yourself"!! Lets just make it simple - ask a Jewish person to read that and see if they think it was just being flamboyant. Maybe I will invite a jewish scholar to come here and comment. ( I know one.) I find it funny that I have disappointed you by pointing out the obvious. Luther was just a man the same as John Calvin or anyone else. And you bet you can find dirt on me - I am just a man. That was my point. The Scripture is on par with itself. The writings of men are filled with hatefulness, agendas, sympathies, lusts, etc... that includes Luther - which I have demonstrated. No amount of excusing him for suggesting the things that he did will justify it. And quoting the institution that is his name sake isn't helping your cause. Like I said earlier, you shouldn't belong to the cult of Luther or any other cult. You should solely adhere to the Scripture as clearly as you understand it. Now, am I saying Luther was bad? No. He was an amazing force in our religion. When you reply you should be balanced. Your style is to demonize the person you are talking to. I think you would do better to not exaggerate and just reply. I do not know you and you do not know me. Why would you want to attack me. Lets just talk about the subject at hand. Shall we? I note that you are disappointed with me - lets move on. Mark

I did not want to bog down the OSAS thread with this subject but thought it important to pursue. The Reformers were men with their own problems and sin just like the rest of us. Men like Martin Luther did great things and managed to free himself of Roman Catholic paganism - to a large degree. He did great but he was far from perfect and rest assured that imperfection was present in everything he did - he was just a man. I want to show that the Scripture is only on par with itself. Man-made confessions and systems of theology are tainted with the authors sin. I am including a small quote from one of the last things Luther wrote and you will see what I mean. From: On Jews and Their Lies. By Martin Luther. What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice: First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know. In Deuteronomy 13:12 Moses writes that any city that is given to idolatry shall be totally destroyed by fire, and nothing of it shall be preserved. If he were alive today, he would be the first to set fire to the synagogues and houses of the Jews. For in Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 he commanded very explicitly that nothing is to be added to or subtracted from his law. And Samuel says in I Samuel 15:23 that disobedience to God is idolatry. Now the Jews' doctrine at present is nothing but the additions of the rabbis and the idolatry of disobedience, so that Moses has become entirely unknown among them (as we said before), just as the Bible became unknown under the papacy in our day. So also, for Moses' sake, their schools cannot be tolerated; they defame him just as much as they do us. It is not necessary that they have their own free churches for such idolatry. Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God. Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17:10) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16:18, "You are Peter," etc., inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach. Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let them stay at home. I have heard it said that a rich Jew is now traveling across the country with twelve horses his ambition is to become a Kokhba devouring princes, lords, lands, and people with his usury, so that the great lords view it with jealous eyes. If you great lords and princes will not forbid such usurers the highway legally, some day a troop may gather against them, having learned from this booklet the true nature of the Jews and how one should deal with them and not protect their activities. For you, too, must not and cannot protect them unless you wish to become participants in an their abominations in the sight of God. Consider carefully what good could come from this, and prevent it. Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us an they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause. Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen. 3 [:19]). For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting., and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants. But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., if they had to serve and work for us -- for it is reasonable to assume that such noble lords of the world and venomous, bitter worms are not accustomed to working and would be very reluctant to humble themselves so deeply before the accursed Goyim -- then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., compute with them how much their usury has extorted from us, divide, divide this amicably, but then eject them forever from the country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them! In brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule: if my counsel does not please you, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews ... Do not grant them protection, safe-conduct, or communion with us ... so it is not necessary to burden ourselves also with these alien, shameful vices of the Jews ... ---------------------------------------- Luther, like Catholicism at the time - was Anti-semitic. He believed them to be Christ-killers. The violence that he wished upon them was a very Catholic thing. Luther did escape much of his Catholic indoctrination but not all......... We shouldn't be of the cult of Luther, or the cult of anyone but Christ Jesus and His word. We can deal with it directly in the same manner that anyone else has. We must learn and pursue the truth and God will guide His elect. Mark

SW:

Hello everyone, I thought that I would stop in and see what was added to this thread and ran into st. Worm

Well, Everyone, Its been fun. All I am doing is repeating myself and with no one responding to my arguments -its all rather pointless. I came here to talk about Scripture. I guess I was to silly to talk to. Goodbye. In Christ's love, Mark777

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED." But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:28-39 '...nor any other created thing..." That pretty much covers everything but God. God says He will lose none and that the life He gives to us is eternal. I am sure there is no doubt in luther's mind now - if there ever was after a certain point of his growth - that God means what He says. You are imperishable, eternal, justified, called, predestined, saved, born again, sealed, kept, the workmanship of His hands...........

I just wanted to express my total amazement concerning the silence of my request for a biblical explanation. Is there something wrong with Scripture that it cannot be discussed directly but has to be filtered through men who lived centuries ago and died? And if a certain person will look back - I quoted the Smalcald articles directly where Luther states that salvation cannot be lost. I am putting a list of quotes together that say the same - so keep quoting Luther ( suggesting otherwise) and we will pit Luther against Luther - and then maybe we can finally get to the Scriptures. Mark (Previously posted) OK, I accepted Christ - He promised that if I did so He would give me eternal everlasting life and I would never perish. Christ said that nothing could take me away from Him or the Father. He not only promised me but every other person that accepted Him - He said He would lose not one of us. Paul told me that I have been sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption - Peter, dear Peter, told me that when I was born again I was born of incorruptoble imperishable seed - Paul told me my salvation was a free gift (That cannot have conditions). He also told me that I am not my own work but God's workmanship and that it isn't I who live but Christ lives in me. If these things are not so - God is a liar. Not only did God tell us these things repeatedly but He had His representatives travel world wide with His word telling everyone these thing. And here someone comes and says, "Well, there are exceptions....." Explain that without LOLing!

That is true but I know what he had to say. I want to hear what horizioneast has to say. Mark

There we go, arguing theologians! I would rather talk about Scripture. I would honestly like to get my questions answered biblically. OK, I accepted Christ - He promised that if I did so He would give me eternal everlasting life and I would never perish. Christ said that nothing could take me away from Him or the Father. He not only promised me but every other person that accepted Him - He said He would lose not one of us. Paul told me that I have been sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption - Peter, dear Peter, told me that when I was born again I was born of incorruptoble imperishable seed - Paul told me my salvation was a free gift (That cannot have conditions). He also told me that I am not my own work but God's workmanship and that it isn't I who live but Christ lives in me. If these things are not so - God is a liar. Not only did God tell us these things repeatedly but He had His representatives travel world wide with His word telling everyone these thing. And here someone comes and says, "Well, there are exceptions....." Explain that without LOLing! Mark

Just in case it was missed by HE: Martin Luther: "God will and does account us entirely righteous and holy for the sake of Christ, our Mediator. And although sin in the flesh has not yet been altogether removed or become dead, yet He will not punish or remember it. And such faith, renewal, and forgiveness of sins is followed by good works. And what there is still sinful or imperfect also in them shall not be accounted as sin or defect, even [and that, too] for Christ's sake; but the entire man, both as to his person and his works, is to be called and to be righteous and holy from pure grace and mercy, shed upon us [unfolded] and spread over us in Christ." Mark