Mark777

der098te0r9ugdf09gud9g erg8ueg er0gew vrgdfflgkf!

Man, John 6:70. Jesus called Judas a devil. As I asked before, did Judas at that point just become a devil? No! He was a devil to begin with. And if you can show me a verse that says devils receive gifts for God then I will recant. Mark

Hello everyone, I also believe that everything comes from God. I believe the problem here is egotism - and I mean that across the board. We think our thoughts are our own - that we are masters of ourselves - that we somehow control ourselves and our world. When in fact we are controlled by culture, nature, and the mode of sin that is the glue of culture and nature. I do not believe in free will. I believe that, at first we are controlled completely by sin. As Smalcald has said - how can dead men rouse themselves? They can't. Left to our own devices, we are dead men on the way to judgement. God has seen fit to offer us salvation through Jesus Christ. I believe this gift is equally open to all men. I believe that, through Jesus Christ, God is drawing all men to himself. In this situation, there arises a true decision for each person. But the ability to perform this act of will is provided by God. God makes an openning in our lives where Christ approaches us and gives us the ability to accept or reject Him. When we reject Him He moves away and we are condemned. When we accept Him we are taken and sealed as His property. He does with us as He wills not as we will. We are a creation of God - no more no less. He controls and owns the world and everything in it - including every one of us. We are only endowed with what He has furnished. Our knowledge, our wisdom, our abilities are all from Him. I feel that any other opinion comes from egotism. Mark

Yes, he was one of the twelve but while they were believers - he was a devil. the Scriptures refer to the twelve but in no way does it say Judas specifically - being a devil and a thief - received any gift from the Holy Spirit. Jesus allowed Judas to be included in their number to fulfill prophecy. What is absolutely clear is that devils do not receive gifts from the Holy Spirit. Mark

Sorry LC, but Jesus said that He called them all but "ONE OF YOU IS A DEVIL". He didn't say, "well, you guy are a bunch of sinners. He said one of you is a devil. For the other passages - they refer to the twelve but no where does it say Judas received anything from the Holy Spirit - on the contrary, it said He was a devil and a thief. Mark

OC, After reading your thoughts and a lot of other historical opinions I am going to side with the opinion that Melchizedek is an unknown person. We know that he was not Christ incarnate. But we don't know much from that point. Without further revelation from God what can either of us say? God chose to keep it obscure. Maybe that will be one of the things he will tell us about in eternity. I do see that it is a historical majority opinion that Melchizedek was not Christ and that believing so was largely a Gnostic idea that some in the modern churches have adopted. Probably enough was told to us through Scripture to illustrate why Christ belonged to a better priesthhood than the levitical one. Personally, for me, it shows how the Mosaic law and sacraficial rituals were, as Paul taught, a temporary tutor that convicted of sin and pointed the way to a savior, Jesus Christ. Thanks for all of your imput and the time you spent being patient with me. May God Bless You, Mark

LadyC, There is a very long thread about this very subject a few pages back calledOnce Saved Always Saved. Great arguments from all three sides are there. And if you go and read it in its totality you will see there wasn't one passage that was brought up that wasn't completely answered - by all sides. Someone there made the statement that it all came down to interpretation - and I agree. As a OSAS person, I do not know of one verse or passage that disproves the concept. But, Here you are saying the same thing. I know the bible very well and I am sure you do too. So why is that? I believe Smalcald asked this question. Maybe the next logical extention to this conversation is in that direction. Mark

Micen Micen Micen, Thanks for the kind words but if you don't leave me alone I will write everything THREE times!! -For the Father. Thanks for the kind words but if you don't leave me alone I will write everything THREE times!! - For the Son. Thanks for the kind words but if you don't leave me alone I will write everything THREE times!! - For the Holy Spirit. No really, you are welcome to bother me anytime, Micen. No really, you are welcome to bother me anytime, Micen. No really, you are welcome to bother me anytime, Micen. Mark Mark Mark

Have you not read Matthew 47:89 which says "Thou shalt raise thy hands in church service unless your Worthy board user name is Whiteeagle." See you are off the hook! No really Whiteeagle, God sees your heart - raise your heart in church - I'm sure there are a lot of folks that don't do that.

And of course I feel the need to ring in here with the fact that it is the will of God that Jesus loses no one. If you accept the words of Jesus about himself you will be His and will never be lost. He is able to hold onto you. We don't have the power but He does. Trust in Him as a child trust their parent - he will do the rest. Mark

How can a devil and thief receive the Holy Spirit? Mark

I would like to ask Godslove26 where you heard Ozzy accepted Christ? Ozzy has publicly shown antagonism towards Christianity since then so I am wondering what your source is. Mine is the Henry Rollins show. Mark

" Jesus therefore six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, whom Jesus raised from the dead. So they made him a supper there: and Martha served; but Lazarus was one of them that sat at meat with him. Mary therefore took a pound of ointment of pure nard, very precious, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odor of the ointment. But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples, that should betray him, saith, Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred shillings, and given to the poor? Now this he said, not because he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and having the bag took away what was put therein." John 12:1-6 Judas was a thief who stole from Jesus the son of God. Could a believer who had become saved through a knowledge of God's love through Jesus steal from Him? I don't think so! Judas was a devil and a thief. The answer is NO!

"Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." John 6:70-71 This is fairly early in Jesus ministry and Judas is called a devil. Did He just become a devil? I don't think so. He was included in the twelve but wasn't saved. Jesus said Judas was a devil.

Hazard, The text does not say that Judas was given the HolySpirit or exercised any gift from God - it refers generally to the twelve - thats all. The Scriptures refer to Judas as a thief. Mark

Thanks OC, Gen.32:28 says, "...you have striven with God." Gen. 32:30 says, "...I have seen God faced to face, yet my life has been preserved" In Genesis 18-19 there are some strange sentences. "Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of Heaven. There is something going on there other than angels. Wrestling with an angel - the passage says a man - would not be the same as striving or facing God. In Genesis 18-19 there is something unusual about the three men other than they are angels - it says that the Lord appeared to Abraham. Now, I did not mean that any of this was Christ incarnate. I was pointing out that when God wishes He can do as He wills. If He wishes to manifest himself as a man, he can. The issue is - did He before Christ? I don't think you can prove what the nature of these things are in totality but they are interesting to note. And, OC, please define "figure". You keep referring to "figure of Christ". Give me a black and white concise simple definition of this usage. Mark

oh no - an Ozzy rant............ And another thing, Micen, is that if all the well meaning Christians in the 1970's and 80's would have put their energy into loving and witnessing to Ozzy - instead of screaming that he was a satanist, "I mean Martha, his band is called B-l-a-c-k-S-a-b-b-a-t-h!" Maybe things for him would have been different. I have read a lot of religious crap about how Black Sabbath were satanists and Ozzy sacrificed animals at concerts and stuff. You know, Ozzy knew those things were not true and probably proved to him that Christianity was made up of a bunch of liars. He was an entertainer who specialized in drama both good and bad. He wanted to sell records and he was marketing young people. Ozzy isn't a great man but he is one that influenced a generation. It would be cool if he turned it around and helped fix what he has wrought. I have a documentary called Don't Blame Me about Ozzy. He has hurt lives and caused many to feel drug use is some how glorified. He raised his kids to be completely lost. He has a lot to answer for. We should pray for all entertainers that have that power over young people. They are a message whether they know it or not. Mark

OC, To make the point that strange situations happened concerning the apperance of God to certain individuals - read Genesis chapters 18 - 19. Concentrating on statements like Gen. 19:24. or Genesis 32:24-32. Tell me what you think. Mark

Lord, I ask you to melt Ozzy's heart and draw him to your Son, Jesus Christ. Make him a Paul for the generation that he influenced. In Jesus name, Amen.

OK, I am going to make the tentative claim that the majority of the church fathers believed that Melchizedek was a man and someone else other than Christ. And also, the idea that Melchizedek was Christ was more or less a Gnostic belief - until recently. Prove me wrong if you can but please referrence. Does anyone know a church father that thought they were the same person? Mark

Years ago when ozzy was young and thinking about all this is when someone should have witnessed to him. He was thinking about Christ and Satan and the meaning of life then. Now, he has been hardened by drink and drugs and years of people yelling that he is a satanist - when in fact he was an entertainer making money. If you watched his reality show - a young man witnessed to him in his living room. Ozzy just got up and walked out. Mark

Even though Ozzy has problems - and big ones - he is an actor and entertainer. And in all fairness read this lyric that reflects his catholic upbringing. Imagine accusing an actor of believing every word they say in a movie. Ozzy is no Satanist - he is guilty of marketing children with crap - thats true. After Forever (including The Elegy) (5:25) Have you ever thought about your soul? Can it be saved? Or perhaps you think that when you are dead you just stay in your grave. Is God just a thought within your head or is he a part of you? Is Christ just a name that you read in a book when you were in school? When you think about death do you lose your breath or do you keep your cool? Would you like to see the Pope on the end of a rope? Do you think he's a fool? (Well/Will) I see the truth. Yes I've seen the light and I've changed my ways. And I'll be prepared when you're lonely and scared at the end of our days. Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say If they knew you believed in God above? They should realize before they criticize that God is the only way to love. Is your mind so small that you have to fall In with the pack wherever they run? Will you still sneer when death is near And say that you may as well worship the sun. I think it is true it was people like you that crucified Christ I think it is sad the opinion you had was the only one voiced. Will you be so sure when your day is near say you don't believe? You had the chance but you turned it down (now/no) you can't retrieve. Perhaps you think before you say God is dead and gone Open your eyes, just realize that he is the one, The only one who can save you now from all this sin and hate. Or will you jeer at all you hear? Yes! I think it's too late. -------------------------- Or this lyric that is written in the voice of Satan. Lord of this World (5:24) You're searching for your mind don't know where to start, Can't find the key to fit the lock on your heart You think you know but you are never quite sure, Your soul is ill but you will not find a cure. Yeah Your world was made for you by someone above, But you chose evil ways instead of love You made me master of the world where you exist, The soul I took from you was not even missed. Yeah Lord of this world, Evil Possessor, Lord of this world, He's your confessor now! You think you're innocent you've nothing to fear, You don't know me, you say, but isn't it clear? You turn to me in all your worldly greed and pride, But will you turn to me when it's your turn to die? Yeah

Hazard, Which passages say that Judas had any of the gifts of the Spirit? Mark

OC, Sorry then, I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that Rev. 1:6 was saying," God and His Father" as in "God has a Father". I would love to have such a clear verse as that but we get that point only from inference. The actual language is more like "His God and Father". Mark

OC, You quoted Rev. 1:6-7 "...And has made us kings and priest unto God and His Father" I think the Greek will show that it means "God" and "Father" are referring to the same person. Mark